A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo acupuncture in IVF treatment

[Guest guest]

1: <javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Hum%20Reprod.');> Hum Reprod. 2008

Oct 21. [Epub ahead of print]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?PrId=3051 & itool=Abstract

Plus-def & uid=18940896 & db=pubmed & url=http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pmi

dlookup?view=long & pmid=18940896> Click here to read

<javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu18940896);> Links

 

 

A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo acupuncture in IVF

treatment.

 

 

 

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22So%20

EW%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> So EW,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Ng%20

EH%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Ng EH,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Wong%

20YY%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.P

ubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Wong YY,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Lau%2

0EY%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pu

bmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Lau EY,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Yeung

%20WS%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.

Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Yeung WS,

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Ho%20

PC%22%5BAuthor%5D & itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Ho PC.

 

Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, The University of Hong Kong, Hong

Kong Special Administrative Region, Pokfulam Road, Hong Kong, People's

Republic of China.

 

BACKGROUND Acupuncture has been used during IVF treatment as it may improve

outcome, however, there are concerns about the true efficacy of this

approach. This randomized double blind study aimed to compare real

acupuncture with placebo acupuncture in patients undergoing IVF treatment.

METHODS On the day of embryo transfer (ET), 370 patients were randomly

allocated to either real or placebo acupuncture according to a

computer-generated randomization list in sealed opaque envelopes. They

received 25 min of real or placebo acupuncture before and after ET. The

endometrial and subendometrial vascularity, serum cortisol concentration and

the anxiety level were evaluated before and after real and placebo

acupuncture. RESULTS The overall pregnancy rate was significantly higher in

the placebo acupuncture group than that in the real acupuncture group (55.1

versus 43.8%, respectively, P = 0.038; Common odds ratio 1.578 95%

confidence interval 1.047-2.378). No significant differences were found in

rates of ongoing pregnancy and live birth between the two groups. Reduction

of endometrial and subendometrial vascularity, serum cortisol concentration

and the anxiety level were observed following both real and placebo

acupuncture, although there were no significant differences in the changes

in all these indices between the two groups. CONCLUSIONS Placebo acupuncture

was associated with a significantly higher overall pregnancy rate when

compared with real acupuncture. Placebo acupuncture may not be inert. Trial

re

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the link Tom, how the heck did they double blind the acupuncture??

The article is currently fee per view, so we don't know the details. Can you

imagine if our instructors in clinic were just as good as we were the first time

we put needles in - Would we have noticed?

 

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, 29 October, 2008 6:18:37

A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo

acupuncture in IVF treatment

 

 

 

 

1: <javascript: AL_get(this, %20'jour' ,%20'Hum% 20Reprod. ');> Hum Reprod.

2008

Oct 21. [Epub ahead of print]

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ entrez/utils/ fref.fcgi? PrId=3051 &

itool=Abstract

Plus-def & uid= 18940896 & db=pubmed & url=http://humrep. oxfordjournals.

org/cgi/pmi

dlookup?view= long & pmid= 18940896> Click here to read

<javascript: PopUpMenu2_ Set(Menu18940896 );> Links

 

A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo acupuncture in IVF

treatment.

 

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22So%

20

EW%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel. Pubmed_RVAbstrac tPlus> So EW,

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Ng%

20

EH%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel. Pubmed_RVAbstrac tPlus> Ng EH,

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search &

Term=%22Wong%

20YY%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.P

ubmed_DiscoveryPane l.Pubmed_ RVAbstractPlus> Wong YY,

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Lau%

2

0EY%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.Pu

bmed_DiscoveryPanel .Pubmed_RVAbstra ctPlus> Lau EY,

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search &

Term=%22Yeung

%20WS%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.

Pubmed_DiscoveryPan el.Pubmed_ RVAbstractPlus> Yeung WS,

<http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ sites/entrez? Db=pubmed & Cmd=Search & Term=%22Ho%

20

PC%22%5BAuthor% 5D & itool= EntrezSystem2. PEntrez.Pubmed. Pubmed_ResultsPa

nel.Pub

med_DiscoveryPanel. Pubmed_RVAbstrac tPlus> Ho PC.

 

Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, The University of Hong Kong, Hong

Kong Special Administrative Region, Pokfulam Road, Hong Kong, People's

Republic of China.

 

BACKGROUND Acupuncture has been used during IVF treatment as it may improve

outcome, however, there are concerns about the true efficacy of this

approach. This randomized double blind study aimed to compare real

acupuncture with placebo acupuncture in patients undergoing IVF treatment.

METHODS On the day of embryo transfer (ET), 370 patients were randomly

allocated to either real or placebo acupuncture according to a

computer-generated randomization list in sealed opaque envelopes. They

received 25 min of real or placebo acupuncture before and after ET. The

endometrial and subendometrial vascularity, serum cortisol concentration and

the anxiety level were evaluated before and after real and placebo

acupuncture. RESULTS The overall pregnancy rate was significantly higher in

the placebo acupuncture group than that in the real acupuncture group (55.1

versus 43.8%, respectively, P = 0.038; Common odds ratio 1.578 95%

confidence interval 1.047-2.378) . No significant differences were found in

rates of ongoing pregnancy and live birth between the two groups. Reduction

of endometrial and subendometrial vascularity, serum cortisol concentration

and the anxiety level were observed following both real and placebo

acupuncture, although there were no significant differences in the changes

in all these indices between the two groups. CONCLUSIONS Placebo acupuncture

was associated with a significantly higher overall pregnancy rate when

compared with real acupuncture. Placebo acupuncture may not be inert. Trial

re

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese- geneeskunde. be

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

>

> Thanks for the link Tom, how the heck did they double blind the

acupuncture??

> The article is currently fee per view, so we don't know the

details. Can you imagine if our instructors in clinic were just as

good as we were the first time we put needles in - Would we have

noticed?

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

 

 

Oohh, delicious response!

 

One of my teachers - John McDonald - has published at least one paper

on the notion of 'double blinding' in acupuncture clinical trials.

He called [or sub-titled] one paper 'The Blind Leading the Blind'.

 

Really, truly, how do you 'blind' an acupuncturist as to whether it's

a 'placebo' or 'active' intervention he/she is performing? To suggest

that this is possible, makes my brain itch.

 

Why is the research community still so damned dismissive of

the 'placebo' response? For goodness sakes, that's a therapeutic

response going on there.

 

I'd love to see acupuncture research move out of oh-so-ho-hum testing

of the 'does-it-work-or-is-it-placebo' hypothesis.

Surely it's time acupuncturists with an interest in research stopped

buying into this notion, and chose to participate in studies of TCM

and acpuncture which are reflective of real-world clinical practice?

 

Randomly controlled trials are not the only way, or necessarily the

most legitimate way to 'do' medical science. I know this is by now a

hackneyed argument, but we still need to have the conversation.

 

Whom do we need to remind that the practice of TCM is a science in

itself?

 

" Science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles

involving the systematized observation of and experiment with

phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and function of the

physical universe... "

 

The Oxford English Reference Dictionary

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

Hnh, maybe it's about as useful as a double blind study for efficacy of

psychotherapies. But the rain, the earth and beauty of spirit we all personally

have to work for. And medicine, mind, or mind/body/spirit, society and industry

has to get more wholesome because of our involvement.

In other words, maybe we could cure or prevent more illness by correcting

large-scale toxic human activity, than screwing around with a couple of

emotional points with a couple people. But also, maybe its not about numbers.

Everyone has their own way.

 

--- On Wed, 10/29/08, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald wrote:

margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald

Re: A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo

acupuncture in IVF treatment

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 7:45 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

 

<subincor@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Thanks for the link Tom, how the heck did they double blind the

 

acupuncture? ?

 

> The article is currently fee per view, so we don't know the

 

details. Can you imagine if our instructors in clinic were just as

 

good as we were the first time we put needles in - Would we have

 

noticed?

 

>

 

> Thanks,

 

> Hugo

 

 

 

Oohh, delicious response!

 

 

 

One of my teachers - John McDonald - has published at least one paper

 

on the notion of 'double blinding' in acupuncture clinical trials.

 

He called [or sub-titled] one paper 'The Blind Leading the Blind'.

 

 

 

Really, truly, how do you 'blind' an acupuncturist as to whether it's

 

a 'placebo' or 'active' intervention he/she is performing? To suggest

 

that this is possible, makes my brain itch.

 

 

 

Why is the research community still so damned dismissive of

 

the 'placebo' response? For goodness sakes, that's a therapeutic

 

response going on there.

 

 

 

I'd love to see acupuncture research move out of oh-so-ho-hum testing

 

of the 'does-it-work- or-is-it- placebo' hypothesis.

 

Surely it's time acupuncturists with an interest in research stopped

 

buying into this notion, and chose to participate in studies of TCM

 

and acpuncture which are reflective of real-world clinical practice?

 

 

 

Randomly controlled trials are not the only way, or necessarily the

 

most legitimate way to 'do' medical science. I know this is by now a

 

hackneyed argument, but we still need to have the conversation.

 

 

 

Whom do we need to remind that the practice of TCM is a science in

 

itself?

 

 

 

" Science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles

 

involving the systematized observation of and experiment with

 

phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and function of the

 

physical universe... "

 

 

 

The Oxford English Reference Dictionary

 

 

 

Margi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All and Mystir;

 

" maybe it's about as useful as a double blind study for efficacy of

psychotherapies. "

 

Oh yeah, that's the one where no one knows whether they are the therapist or

the patient.

 

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

mystir <ykcul_ritsym

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, 29 October, 2008 23:36:38

Re: Re: A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo

acupuncture in IVF treatment

 

 

Hnh, But the rain, the earth and beauty of spirit we all personally have to work

for. And medicine, mind, or mind/body/spirit, society and industry has to get

more wholesome because of our involvement.

In other words, maybe we could cure or prevent more illness by correcting

large-scale toxic human activity, than screwing around with a couple of

emotional points with a couple people. But also, maybe its not about numbers.

Everyone has their own way.

 

--- On Wed, 10/29/08, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com> wrote:

margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com>

Re: A randomized double blind comparison of real and placebo

acupuncture in IVF treatment

 

Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 7:45 PM

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

 

<subincor@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> Thanks for the link Tom, how the heck did they double blind the

 

acupuncture? ?

 

> The article is currently fee per view, so we don't know the

 

details. Can you imagine if our instructors in clinic were just as

 

good as we were the first time we put needles in - Would we have

 

noticed?

 

>

 

> Thanks,

 

> Hugo

 

Oohh, delicious response!

 

One of my teachers - John McDonald - has published at least one paper

 

on the notion of 'double blinding' in acupuncture clinical trials.

 

He called [or sub-titled] one paper 'The Blind Leading the Blind'.

 

Really, truly, how do you 'blind' an acupuncturist as to whether it's

 

a 'placebo' or 'active' intervention he/she is performing? To suggest

 

that this is possible, makes my brain itch.

 

Why is the research community still so damned dismissive of

 

the 'placebo' response? For goodness sakes, that's a therapeutic

 

response going on there.

 

I'd love to see acupuncture research move out of oh-so-ho-hum testing

 

of the 'does-it-work- or-is-it- placebo' hypothesis.

 

Surely it's time acupuncturists with an interest in research stopped

 

buying into this notion, and chose to participate in studies of TCM

 

and acpuncture which are reflective of real-world clinical practice?

 

Randomly controlled trials are not the only way, or necessarily the

 

most legitimate way to 'do' medical science. I know this is by now a

 

hackneyed argument, but we still need to have the conversation.

 

Whom do we need to remind that the practice of TCM is a science in

 

itself?

 

" Science: a branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles

 

involving the systematized observation of and experiment with

 

phenomena, esp. concerned with the material and function of the

 

physical universe... "

 

The Oxford English Reference Dictionary

 

Margi