Guest guest Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Hi all, I have a 33 yr old dancer patient who has a sudden warm waterfall feeling of " energy " shooting down to her heel, which comes on intermittently sitting or standing, only in this past week. The feeling is not painful, nor numb, just strange. Otherwise, no other problems or pain. I thought maybe a nerve at first.. L5 / S1, but no hua tuo jia ji reflex, no lower back pain, no hx of sciatica or piriformis sx. Her tongue is pale with a thin white coat. Her pulse is string-taut in the left guan and thready in all other positions. Any idea what this is from a TCM and Biomed diagnosis? I remember hearing this as some sort of esoteric TCM diagnosis, but don't remember. Thanks. K -- Turtle Island Integrative Health TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Hi Kokko, I have had a couple of similar patients, females, who were athletes. My read on cases like these is blood vacuity, precipitating qi and blood stagnation, in the area of their weakest anatomical link, meaning that which endures the most stimulation, and or trauma- the feet. A give away in my patients was very short and light menstrual periods. Initially, when I gave herbs to tonify yin and blood, I found that there was also an underlying Spleen Qi vacuity as well, as they each had loose bowel movements. So I used herbs to strengthen the spleen and dry dampness (BTW, they each drank more water than was good for them, exacerbating the problem), along with Du Huo Ji Sheng Wan to treat the wind-damp and nourish the blood in the lower extemities. One other thing I have did was a therapeutic application of acupuncture that I learned in the DAOM program I attend at Samra, what they call " Kinetic Acupuncture " . Palpate the channels, to determine where there might be stagnation or pain, needle one or two points on the foot of that channel, eg. if there is tenderness along the liver channel, you might consider needling Lv2 & Lv3, and then have the patient walk with the needle or needles in the foot, for 5-10 minutes up and down the hall of your office. Though painful at first, after a couple of minutes the pain should be gone, and when you take the needle out so should be the shooting sensation. The idea behind it is that by doing this, you are mechanically moving the qi and decongesting the channel. I have seen some pretty amazing results. --- On Fri, 5/1/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko warm feeling shooting to the heel Chinese Medicine Friday, May 1, 2009, 7:40 AM Hi all, I have a 33 yr old dancer patient who has a sudden warm waterfall feeling of " energy " shooting down to her heel, which comes on intermittently sitting or standing, only in this past week. The feeling is not painful, nor numb, just strange. Otherwise, no other problems or pain. I thought maybe a nerve at first.. L5 / S1, but no hua tuo jia ji reflex, no lower back pain, no hx of sciatica or piriformis sx. Her tongue is pale with a thin white coat. Her pulse is string-taut in the left guan and thready in all other positions. Any idea what this is from a TCM and Biomed diagnosis? I remember hearing this as some sort of esoteric TCM diagnosis, but don't remember. Thanks. K -- Turtle Island Integrative Health www.turtleclinic. com TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 Yehuda, Thanks for sharing your experience. Actually, she usually does have short (3 days) and scanty periods (blood xu) and there is underlying SP Qi xu as well (fatigue) So, that makes sense. This feeling began after her period, where Qi and Blood is low. The occurrence was about 1 time/ day for a week. Now, she is ovulating and that warm water-fall sensation in her heel is less frequent. Since she's a dancer, she's stomping on her heel continuously (3 x/ week), but it's only the right heel which is feeling this sensation. It begins around UB 58 and radiates to the inside of the heel (around the extra point for the brain and insomnia - center of the heel). She's sleeping fine and has no other complaints actually. The " Kinetic acupuncture " technique sounds interesting. Who was it developed by? Tung style acupuncture has this element in it as well for shoulder, neck, back and foot pains, but I've never heard of walking around with LV 2 or 3 inside the foot ! K On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 1:53 AM, wrote: > > > Hi Kokko, > > I have had a couple of similar patients, females, who were athletes. My > read on cases like these is blood vacuity, precipitating qi and blood > stagnation, in the area of their weakest anatomical link, meaning that > which endures the most stimulation, and or trauma- the feet. A give away in > my patients was very short and light menstrual periods. Initially, when I > gave herbs to tonify yin and blood, I found that there was also an > underlying Spleen Qi vacuity as well, as they each had loose bowel > movements. So I used herbs to strengthen the spleen and dry dampness (BTW, > they each drank more water than was good for them, exacerbating the > problem), along with Du Huo Ji Sheng Wan to treat the wind-damp and nourish > the blood in the lower extemities. One other thing I have did was a > therapeutic application of acupuncture that I learned in the DAOM program I > attend at Samra, what they call " Kinetic Acupuncture " . Palpate the > channels, to > determine where there might be stagnation or pain, needle one or two points > on the foot of that channel, eg. if there is tenderness along the liver > channel, you might consider needling Lv2 & Lv3, and then have the patient > walk with the needle or needles in the foot, for 5-10 minutes up and down > the hall of your office. Though painful at first, after a couple of minutes > the pain should be gone, and when you take the needle out so should be the > shooting sensation. The idea behind it is that by doing this, you are > mechanically moving the qi and decongesting the channel. I have seen some > pretty amazing results. > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/1/09, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > warm feeling shooting to the heel > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Friday, May 1, 2009, 7:40 AM > > > Hi all, > > I have a 33 yr old dancer patient who has a sudden warm waterfall feeling > of > " energy " shooting down to her heel, > which comes on intermittently sitting or standing, only in this past week. > The feeling is not painful, nor numb, just strange. > > Otherwise, no other problems or pain. > I thought maybe a nerve at first.. L5 / S1, but no hua tuo jia ji reflex, > no lower back pain, no hx of sciatica or piriformis sx. > > Her tongue is pale with a thin white coat. > Her pulse is string-taut in the left guan and thready in all other > positions. > > Any idea what this is from a TCM and Biomed diagnosis? > I remember hearing this as some sort of esoteric TCM diagnosis, but don't > remember. > > Thanks. > > K > > -- > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > www.turtleclinic. com > > TCM Review director > CA State Board Prep Courses > www.tcmreview. com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Hi Kokko, Here's the clinic site: http://www.samraclinic.com. The Samra administration is essentially all Korean, and from what I understand, that's where the kinetic acupuncture comes from. (BTW, in the DAOM program the professors come from diverse backgrounds--eg. Beijing, Vietnam, and of course, Seoul.) From what I have read and videos I've seen, they have had enormous success with musculo-skeletal problems using it. (if I remember correctly, you're Korean, right? If so, your might want to see the Samra site in Korean, find out the original term that they translated as " kinetic acupuncture " and do a google search on in there.) If the shooting pain starts at around UB58, I think I would place needles at UB63, the Xi-cleft point of the UB, as well as Lv 2 and Lv3, to unblock the Qi. There's much more to it then just placing needles and having the patient move or walk. For example, another thing they do, is place needles on Ah Shi points, and immediately take them out, to " wake up " and relax muscles, and then go on to other points, the idea being to release one layer to get to the next. It's interesting and different, I like it, and I'm learning alot. Getting back to your patient, like I said, I would definitely work first and strengthening the Spleen, and then, slowly and carefully nourish the blood--using herbs and of course acupuncture, and try to treat according to the four weeks of her menstrual cycle. All the best, --- On Sun, 5/3/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: warm feeling shooting to the heel Chinese Medicine Sunday, May 3, 2009, 6:52 AM Yehuda, Thanks for sharing your experience. Actually, she usually does have short (3 days) and scanty periods (blood xu) and there is underlying SP Qi xu as well (fatigue) So, that makes sense. This feeling began after her period, where Qi and Blood is low. The occurrence was about 1 time/ day for a week. Now, she is ovulating and that warm water-fall sensation in her heel is less frequent. Since she's a dancer, she's stomping on her heel continuously (3 x/ week), but it's only the right heel which is feeling this sensation. It begins around UB 58 and radiates to the inside of the heel (around the extra point for the brain and insomnia - center of the heel). She's sleeping fine and has no other complaints actually. The " Kinetic acupuncture " technique sounds interesting. Who was it developed by? Tung style acupuncture has this element in it as well for shoulder, neck, back and foot pains, but I've never heard of walking around with LV 2 or 3 inside the foot ! K On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 1:53 AM, > wrote: > > > Hi Kokko, > > I have had a couple of similar patients, females, who were athletes. My > read on cases like these is blood vacuity, precipitating qi and blood > stagnation, in the area of their weakest anatomical link, meaning that > which endures the most stimulation, and or trauma- the feet. A give away in > my patients was very short and light menstrual periods. Initially, when I > gave herbs to tonify yin and blood, I found that there was also an > underlying Spleen Qi vacuity as well, as they each had loose bowel > movements. So I used herbs to strengthen the spleen and dry dampness (BTW, > they each drank more water than was good for them, exacerbating the > problem), along with Du Huo Ji Sheng Wan to treat the wind-damp and nourish > the blood in the lower extemities. One other thing I have did was a > therapeutic application of acupuncture that I learned in the DAOM program I > attend at Samra, what they call " Kinetic Acupuncture " . Palpate the > channels, to > determine where there might be stagnation or pain, needle one or two points > on the foot of that channel, eg. if there is tenderness along the liver > channel, you might consider needling Lv2 & Lv3, and then have the patient > walk with the needle or needles in the foot, for 5-10 minutes up and down > the hall of your office. Though painful at first, after a couple of minutes > the pain should be gone, and when you take the needle out so should be the > shooting sensation. The idea behind it is that by doing this, you are > mechanically moving the qi and decongesting the channel. I have seen some > pretty amazing results. > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > --- On Fri, 5/1/09, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com<johnkokko%40gmail. com>> > wrote: > > <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com <johnkokko%40gmail. com>> > warm feeling shooting to the heel > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Friday, May 1, 2009, 7:40 AM > > > Hi all, > > I have a 33 yr old dancer patient who has a sudden warm waterfall feeling > of > " energy " shooting down to her heel, > which comes on intermittently sitting or standing, only in this past week. > The feeling is not painful, nor numb, just strange. > > Otherwise, no other problems or pain. > I thought maybe a nerve at first.. L5 / S1, but no hua tuo jia ji reflex, > no lower back pain, no hx of sciatica or piriformis sx. > > Her tongue is pale with a thin white coat. > Her pulse is string-taut in the left guan and thready in all other > positions. > > Any idea what this is from a TCM and Biomed diagnosis? > I remember hearing this as some sort of esoteric TCM diagnosis, but don't > remember. > > Thanks. > > K > > -- > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > www.turtleclinic. com > > TCM Review director > CA State Board Prep Courses > www.tcmreview. com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Yehuda, Yes.. there are great things coming out of Korea right now. There's a lot of dedicated study (10+ years of schooling) where students at Kyung Hee University study harder than MD students. From the Kyung Hee University blog, the students study six days / week and learn/study over 12 hours/ day. Only those with the highest high-school completion exams can get into Kyung Hee. It's harder than Seoul University, which in itself is harder to get into than Harvard. So, only the cream of the crop of intellectuals can go to that school. There's also a lot of money invested in Asian medicine invested in Korea. If you graduate from Kyung Hee for instance, I've heard that you can make twice as much money as an MD. So, ever since this last decade, many families want their children to become Asian medicine doctors When they're in school, they learn both allopathic medicine as well as traditional Korean/ Chinese medicine and the schools have the money to get the latest medical technology as well. I haven't visited Kyung-Hee, but a couple friends have. You can do observation rounds. It costs about $700/ week to watch. Their hard work is also an inspiration. It makes me want to work harder, knowing that our medicine is such a mystery that requires mastery. I know you feel the same way. Btw, about the warm waterfall feeling in the heel, a friend made a joke and called it, " running piglet Qi of the heel " or we can just call it.. " running piglet heel " K On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:11 AM, wrote: > > > Hi Kokko, > > Here's the clinic site: http://www.samraclinic.com. The Samra > administration is essentially all Korean, and from what I understand, that's > where the kinetic acupuncture comes from. (BTW, in the DAOM program the > professors come from diverse backgrounds--eg. Beijing, Vietnam, and of > course, Seoul.) From what I have read and videos I've seen, they have had > enormous success with musculo-skeletal problems using it. (if I remember > correctly, you're Korean, right? If so, your might want to see the Samra > site in Korean, find out the original term that they translated as " kinetic > acupuncture " and do a google search on in there.) If the shooting pain > starts at around UB58, I think I would place needles at UB63, the Xi-cleft > point of the UB, as well as Lv 2 and Lv3, to unblock the Qi. There's much > more to it then just placing needles and having the patient move or walk. > For example, another thing they do, is place needles on Ah Shi points, > and immediately take them out, to " wake up " and relax muscles, and then go > on to other points, the idea being to release one layer to get to the next. > It's interesting and different, I like it, and I'm learning alot. > > Getting back to your patient, like I said, I would definitely work first > and strengthening the Spleen, and then, slowly and carefully nourish the > blood--using herbs and of course acupuncture, and try to treat according to > the four weeks of her menstrual cycle. > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/3/09, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > Re: warm feeling shooting to the heel > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sunday, May 3, 2009, 6:52 AM > > > Yehuda, > > Thanks for sharing your experience. > Actually, she usually does have short (3 days) and scanty periods (blood > xu) > > and there is underlying SP Qi xu as well (fatigue) > So, that makes sense. This feeling began after her period, where Qi and > Blood is low. > The occurrence was about 1 time/ day for a week. > Now, she is ovulating and that warm water-fall sensation in her heel is > less > frequent. > > Since she's a dancer, she's stomping on her heel continuously (3 x/ week), > but it's only the right heel which is feeling this sensation. > It begins around UB 58 and radiates to the inside of the heel > (around the extra point for the brain and insomnia - center of the heel). > She's sleeping fine and has no other complaints actually. > > The " Kinetic acupuncture " technique sounds interesting. Who was it > developed by? > Tung style acupuncture has this element in it as well for shoulder, neck, > back and foot pains, > but I've never heard of walking around with LV 2 or 3 inside the foot ! > > K > > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 1:53 AM, > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Kokko, > > > > I have had a couple of similar patients, females, who were athletes. My > > read on cases like these is blood vacuity, precipitating qi and blood > > stagnation, in the area of their weakest anatomical link, meaning that > > which endures the most stimulation, and or trauma- the feet. A give away > in > > my patients was very short and light menstrual periods. Initially, when I > > gave herbs to tonify yin and blood, I found that there was also an > > underlying Spleen Qi vacuity as well, as they each had loose bowel > > movements. So I used herbs to strengthen the spleen and dry dampness > (BTW, > > they each drank more water than was good for them, exacerbating the > > problem), along with Du Huo Ji Sheng Wan to treat the wind-damp and > nourish > > the blood in the lower extemities. One other thing I have did was a > > therapeutic application of acupuncture that I learned in the DAOM program > I > > attend at Samra, what they call " Kinetic Acupuncture " . Palpate the > > channels, to > > determine where there might be stagnation or pain, needle one or two > points > > on the foot of that channel, eg. if there is tenderness along the liver > > channel, you might consider needling Lv2 & Lv3, and then have the patient > > walk with the needle or needles in the foot, for 5-10 minutes up and down > > the hall of your office. Though painful at first, after a couple of > minutes > > the pain should be gone, and when you take the needle out so should be > the > > shooting sensation. The idea behind it is that by doing this, you are > > mechanically moving the qi and decongesting the channel. I have seen some > > pretty amazing results. > > > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 5/1/09, <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com<johnkokko%40gmail. > com>> > > wrote: > > > > <johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com <johnkokko%40gmail. com>> > > warm feeling shooting to the heel > > <Traditional_ > Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Friday, May 1, 2009, 7:40 AM > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a 33 yr old dancer patient who has a sudden warm waterfall feeling > > of > > " energy " shooting down to her heel, > > which comes on intermittently sitting or standing, only in this past > week. > > The feeling is not painful, nor numb, just strange. > > > > Otherwise, no other problems or pain. > > I thought maybe a nerve at first.. L5 / S1, but no hua tuo jia ji reflex, > > no lower back pain, no hx of sciatica or piriformis sx. > > > > Her tongue is pale with a thin white coat. > > Her pulse is string-taut in the left guan and thready in all other > > positions. > > > > Any idea what this is from a TCM and Biomed diagnosis? > > I remember hearing this as some sort of esoteric TCM diagnosis, but don't > > remember. > > > > Thanks. > > > > K > > > > -- > > > > Turtle Island Integrative Health > > www.turtleclinic. com > > > > TCM Review director > > CA State Board Prep Courses > > www.tcmreview. com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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