The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and an Ordinary One

May 3, 2009

Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an extraordinary

practitioner and an ordinary one? "

Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to have a

thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it slow, thoughtful and

honorable, it could be very interesting and illuminating.

May 4, 2009

Ancient doctors asked this question too.

One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats diseases " before

they occur " .

this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he can diagnose

by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor would need to need to examine

the pulse as well.

there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

" treat the spirit first. "

This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question of how to

diagnose the spirit.

Again, observation.

I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of practice "

(*:

Harry, in Beijing.

Chinese Medicine , " Daniel Schulman "

<daniel.schulman wrote:

>

> Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an extraordinary

practitioner and an ordinary one? "

>

> Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to have a

thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it slow, thoughtful and

honorable, it could be very interesting and illuminating.

>

May 4, 2009

Hi Daniel and all:

One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us: " You have

a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

________________________________

Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and an

Ordinary One

Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an extraordinary

practitioner and an ordinary one? "

Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to have a

thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it slow, thoughtful and

honorable, it could be very interesting and illuminating.

May 4, 2009

Absolutely correct. I wrote an article on this very point, called

" The Technician and the Scholar Physician " . I think Attilio has it in

his archives. . .

On May 3, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> Hi Daniel and all:

>

> One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

>

> Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us:

> " You have a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

> ________________________________

> Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

> The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner

> and an Ordinary One

>

> Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

>

> Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> illuminating.

>

May 4, 2009

Hi Z'ev and all:

I believe your paper can still be found here as well:

http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/blog/technician

One of the central tenets of this debate, perhaps the most important, as I

believe you set out in your paper, is that the true physician relies on him or

herself, as a living embodiment of all their training, experience and unique

gifts, whereas the technician relies on a centralised storehouse of data,

technique or procedure - a storehouse which, importantly, has no stake in

whether the technician excels or not, survives or not.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, 3 May, 2009 20:30:32

Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and an

Ordinary One

Absolutely correct. I wrote an article on this very point, called

" The Technician and the Scholar Physician " . I think Attilio has it in

his archives. . .

On May 3, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> Hi Daniel and all:

>

> One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

>

> Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us:

> " You have a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

>

> Hugo

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ >

>

> Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

> The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner

> and an Ordinary One

>

> Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

>

> Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> illuminating.

>

May 4, 2009

Hugo,

I like the way you interpret this. In other words, the individual

expression of the practitioner, is empowered when based on the

collective experience of generations of practitioners and the

principles outlined in the classics.

On May 3, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> Hi Z'ev and all:

>

> I believe your paper can still be found here as well:

> http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/blog/technician

>

> One of the central tenets of this debate, perhaps the most

> important, as I believe you set out in your paper, is that the true

> physician relies on him or herself, as a living embodiment of all

> their training, experience and unique gifts, whereas the technician

> relies on a centralised storehouse of data, technique or procedure -

> a storehouse which, importantly, has no stake in whether the

> technician excels or not, survives or not.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, 3 May, 2009 20:30:32

> Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>

> Absolutely correct. I wrote an article on this very point, called

> " The Technician and the Scholar Physician " . I think Attilio has it in

> his archives. . .

>

> On May 3, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Daniel and all:

> >

> > One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

> >

> > Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us:

> > " You have a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ >

> >

> > Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

> > The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner

> > and an Ordinary One

> >

> > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> > extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> >

> > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> > have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> > slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> > illuminating.

> >

May 4, 2009

This weekend, Shudo Denmei reiterated the statement,

" Forget self and Serve others " .

I think that is the hallmark between an ordinary practitioner who has a

personal agenda

and the extra-ordinary one, who sacrifices for the patient and the

profession.

Also, seeing Shudo Denmei for the first time,

just the sense of him practicing for 50 years gives you perspective.

An ordinary practitioner would give up before that mark.

Does it take 30-50 years to become extra-ordinary? or does it just take a

clear mind (xin) ?

Would you rather have twice the intelligence

or twice the experience?

K

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Hugo,

> I like the way you interpret this. In other words, the individual

> expression of the practitioner, is empowered when based on the

> collective experience of generations of practitioners and the

> principles outlined in the classics.

>

> On May 3, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Z'ev and all:

> >

> > I believe your paper can still be found here as well:

> > http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/blog/technician

> >

> > One of the central tenets of this debate, perhaps the most

> > important, as I believe you set out in your paper, is that the true

> > physician relies on him or herself, as a living embodiment of all

> > their training, experience and unique gifts, whereas the technician

> > relies on a centralised storehouse of data, technique or procedure -

> > a storehouse which, importantly, has no stake in whether the

> > technician excels or not, survives or not.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

> >

> > ________________________________

> > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Sunday, 3 May, 2009 20:30:32

> > Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> > Practitioner and an Ordinary One

> >

> > Absolutely correct. I wrote an article on this very point, called

> > " The Technician and the Scholar Physician " . I think Attilio has it in

> > his archives. . .

> >

> > On May 3, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Hi Daniel and all:

> > >

> > > One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

> > >

> > > Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us:

> > > " You have a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

> > >

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ >

> > >

> > > Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

> > > The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner

> > > and an Ordinary One

> > >

> > > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> > > extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> > >

> > > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> > > have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> > > slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> > > illuminating.

> > >

May 4, 2009

Hi John. For all the tech, protocol, training, standards, and so on. My best

work comes when my mind is there in a broad way, breathing some day and caring.

(actually so much more to say where words don't go)

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and an

Ordinary One

Chinese Medicine

Monday, May 4, 2009, 12:27 AM

This weekend, Shudo Denmei reiterated the statement,

" Forget self and Serve others " .

I think that is the hallmark between an ordinary practitioner who has a

personal agenda

and the extra-ordinary one, who sacrifices for the patient and the

profession.

Also, seeing Shudo Denmei for the first time,

just the sense of him practicing for 50 years gives you perspective.

An ordinary practitioner would give up before that mark.

Does it take 30-50 years to become extra-ordinary? or does it just take a

clear mind (xin) ?

Would you rather have twice the intelligence

or twice the experience?

K

On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 5:57 PM, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

>

> Hugo,

> I like the way you interpret this. In other words, the individual

> expression of the practitioner, is empowered when based on the

> collective experience of generations of practitioners and the

> principles outlined in the classics.

>

> On May 3, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi Z'ev and all:

> >

> > I believe your paper can still be found here as well:

> > http://www.paradigm -pubs.com/ blog/technician

> >

> > One of the central tenets of this debate, perhaps the most

> > important, as I believe you set out in your paper, is that the true

> > physician relies on him or herself, as a living embodiment of all

> > their training, experience and unique gifts, whereas the technician

> > relies on a centralised storehouse of data, technique or procedure -

> > a storehouse which, importantly, has no stake in whether the

> > technician excels or not, survives or not.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com <zrosenbe%40san. rr.com>>

> > <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>

> > Sunday, 3 May, 2009 20:30:32

> > Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> > Practitioner and an Ordinary One

> >

> > Absolutely correct. I wrote an article on this very point, called

> > " The Technician and the Scholar Physician " . I think Attilio has it in

> > his archives. . .

> >

> > On May 3, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Hi Daniel and all:

> > >

> > > One small point to add to the discussion at this time:

> > >

> > > Throughout my formal *TCM* schooling our teacher constantly told us:

> > > " You have a choice of being a technician, or a doctor. Your choice. "

> > >

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Daniel Schulman <daniel.schulman@ >

> > >

> > > Sunday, 3 May, 2009 14:27:27

> > > The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner

> > > and an Ordinary One

> > >

> > > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> > > extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> > >

> > > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> > > have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> > > slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> > > illuminating.

> > >

May 4, 2009

Chinese language is cryptic and metaphorical, it can mean understanding

morphology, body types, face and palm reading, etc. which reveals much, also

means you know the nature of pathogens, pathology and its transmission in the

body, through the organs and between channels and treat ahead of time, before it

moves and transforms.

regards,

david

Chinese Medicine , " skip8080 " <skip8080

wrote:

>

> Ancient doctors asked this question too.

>

> One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats diseases

" before they occur " .

>

> this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he can diagnose

by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor would need to need to examine

the pulse as well.

>

> there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

>

> However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

> " treat the spirit first. "

> This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question of how to

diagnose the spirit.

> Again, observation.

>

> I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of practice "

(*:

>

> Harry, in Beijing.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Daniel Schulman "

<daniel.schulman@> wrote:

> >

> > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> >

> > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to have a

thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it slow, thoughtful and

honorable, it could be very interesting and illuminating.

> >

>

May 4, 2009

In ancient China physicians had the luxury of treating people before they got

ill. Remuneration was different and so were the times. Nowadays, people don't

come to us until they have exhausted every other means of treatment. Today, we

are often the last resort. And we often succeed where others have failed.

Times have changed and are changing. Are we ready for it? We are no longer

living in ancient China, we are here, now. Therefore, the paradigm has shifted.

We don't have the luxury of preventing disease. Therefore, in our times, the

superior doctor/practitioner will be the one that can resolve the problem that

no one else was able to resolve. The one that can do what no one else can do.

That is the extraordinary practitioner, don't you think?

It is easy to sit and philosophize and talk about pathomechanizms ad nauseum.

But what can you actually DO? Outcomes is where the true answer lies.

Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

skip8080

Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:07 +0000

Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and an

Ordinary One

Ancient doctors asked this question too.

One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats diseases " before

they occur " .

this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he can diagnose

by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor would need to need to examine

the pulse as well.

there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

" treat the spirit first. "

This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question of how to

diagnose the spirit.

Again, observation.

I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of practice "

(*:

Harry, in Beijing.

Chinese Medicine , " Daniel Schulman "

<daniel.schulman wrote:

>

> Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an extraordinary

practitioner and an ordinary one? "

>

> Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to have a

thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it slow, thoughtful and

honorable, it could be very interesting and illuminating.

>

May 4, 2009

Don,

This is a vast over-simplification. While disease prevention was a

major emphasis in the Nei Jing, it was by no means the sole focus of

classical medicine. In the very first chapter of the Su Wen, it

discusses how people had fallen away from healthy lifestyles, and

needed medical interventions in order to restore health.

The Shang Han Za Bing Lun is the root of the clinical herbal

tradition, and treats asthma, stiff neck and shoulders, wet cough,

jaundice, vomiting blood, and a wide range of clinical specialities

from obstetrics to skin disorders. Very practical indeed, and timely

for modern practice.

I don't know about you, but prevention is a good part of my own

practice, and my patients are very interested in lifestyle, diet,

emotional health, and want to know the factors that lead to

illness. . . what you call pathomechanisms. The principles of

'ancient China' haven't changed, just local conditions, and Chinese

medicine is very adaptable to modern conditions.

It is interesting that one of the priorities of the Obama

administration is preventative health, which is much less expensive

then heroic medical procedures.

Certainly, if we can make a great impression on people by giving

them help in conditions when none was available before, this is

great. But that doesn't mean that one needs to not pay attention to

pathomechanisms and underlying factors. If not, we are only doing

part of our job.

On May 4, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> In ancient China physicians had the luxury of treating people before

> they got ill. Remuneration was different and so were the times.

> Nowadays, people don't come to us until they have exhausted every

> other means of treatment. Today, we are often the last resort. And

> we often succeed where others have failed.

>

> Times have changed and are changing. Are we ready for it? We are no

> longer living in ancient China, we are here, now. Therefore, the

> paradigm has shifted. We don't have the luxury of preventing

> disease. Therefore, in our times, the superior doctor/practitioner

> will be the one that can resolve the problem that no one else was

> able to resolve. The one that can do what no one else can do. That

> is the extraordinary practitioner, don't you think?

>

> It is easy to sit and philosophize and talk about pathomechanizms ad

> nauseum. But what can you actually DO? Outcomes is where the true

> answer lies.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> skip8080

> Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:07 +0000

> Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>

> Ancient doctors asked this question too.

>

> One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats

> diseases " before they occur " .

>

> this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he

> can diagnose by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor

> would need to need to examine the pulse as well.

>

> there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

>

> However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

> " treat the spirit first. "

> This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question

> of how to diagnose the spirit.

> Again, observation.

>

> I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of

> practice " (*:

>

> Harry, in Beijing.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Daniel

> Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote:

> >

> > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> >

> > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> illuminating.

> >

>

May 4, 2009

Hi Zev:

Nice hearing from you. You're right, it was an oversimplification. But so was

the statement from the past that " the superior doctor treats before disease

occurs. " You may see a number of folks for preventive medicine, but I see very

few of these. I certainly wish most people would come on a PM basis or that

they would see us before things got bad. Unfortunately, that is not the case

down here. It wasn't the case when I practised in San Diego either. However,

you are one of the ancient ones and have a pretty developed practice. I can't

wait until I, too, am there.

Nice talking to you again,

Sincerely,

You student forever,

Don J. Snow

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Mon, 4 May 2009 12:18:56 -0700

Re: Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and

an Ordinary One

Don,

This is a vast over-simplification. While disease prevention was a

major emphasis in the Nei Jing, it was by no means the sole focus of

classical medicine. In the very first chapter of the Su Wen, it

discusses how people had fallen away from healthy lifestyles, and

needed medical interventions in order to restore health.

The Shang Han Za Bing Lun is the root of the clinical herbal

tradition, and treats asthma, stiff neck and shoulders, wet cough,

jaundice, vomiting blood, and a wide range of clinical specialities

from obstetrics to skin disorders. Very practical indeed, and timely

for modern practice.

I don't know about you, but prevention is a good part of my own

practice, and my patients are very interested in lifestyle, diet,

emotional health, and want to know the factors that lead to

illness. . . what you call pathomechanisms. The principles of

'ancient China' haven't changed, just local conditions, and Chinese

medicine is very adaptable to modern conditions.

It is interesting that one of the priorities of the Obama

administration is preventative health, which is much less expensive

then heroic medical procedures.

Certainly, if we can make a great impression on people by giving

them help in conditions when none was available before, this is

great. But that doesn't mean that one needs to not pay attention to

pathomechanisms and underlying factors. If not, we are only doing

part of our job.

On May 4, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> In ancient China physicians had the luxury of treating people before

> they got ill. Remuneration was different and so were the times.

> Nowadays, people don't come to us until they have exhausted every

> other means of treatment. Today, we are often the last resort. And

> we often succeed where others have failed.

>

> Times have changed and are changing. Are we ready for it? We are no

> longer living in ancient China, we are here, now. Therefore, the

> paradigm has shifted. We don't have the luxury of preventing

> disease. Therefore, in our times, the superior doctor/practitioner

> will be the one that can resolve the problem that no one else was

> able to resolve. The one that can do what no one else can do. That

> is the extraordinary practitioner, don't you think?

>

> It is easy to sit and philosophize and talk about pathomechanizms ad

> nauseum. But what can you actually DO? Outcomes is where the true

> answer lies.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> skip8080

> Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:07 +0000

> Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>

> Ancient doctors asked this question too.

>

> One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats

> diseases " before they occur " .

>

> this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he

> can diagnose by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor

> would need to need to examine the pulse as well.

>

> there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

>

> However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

> " treat the spirit first. "

> This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question

> of how to diagnose the spirit.

> Again, observation.

>

> I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of

> practice " (*:

>

> Harry, in Beijing.

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Daniel

> Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote:

> >

> > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> >

> > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> illuminating.

> >

>

May 4, 2009

Don,

I may be a senior practitioner (hopefully, not too 'old'), but

there's still a lot to learn and share. I am proud of the success

you've carved out for yourself in the deep South, and you've found a

very good niche to practice in. I think as you build a patient base

over time that people will turn more to your support and expertise to

stay healthy, rather than just come when in 'crisis mode'. Otherwise,

the present poor state of affairs in public healthcare will continue,

only no one will be able to afford the remedial treatment. . .

Strength and blessing,

On May 4, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> Hi Zev:

>

> Nice hearing from you. You're right, it was an oversimplification.

> But so was the statement from the past that " the superior doctor

> treats before disease occurs. " You may see a number of folks for

> preventive medicine, but I see very few of these. I certainly wish

> most people would come on a PM basis or that they would see us

> before things got bad. Unfortunately, that is not the case down

> here. It wasn't the case when I practised in San Diego either.

> However, you are one of the ancient ones and have a pretty developed

> practice. I can't wait until I, too, am there.

>

> Nice talking to you again,

>

> Sincerely,

>

> You student forever,

>

> Don J. Snow

>

> Chinese Medicine

> zrosenbe

> Mon, 4 May 2009 12:18:56 -0700

> Re: Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>

> Don,

>

> This is a vast over-simplification. While disease prevention was a

> major emphasis in the Nei Jing, it was by no means the sole focus of

> classical medicine. In the very first chapter of the Su Wen, it

> discusses how people had fallen away from healthy lifestyles, and

> needed medical interventions in order to restore health.

>

> The Shang Han Za Bing Lun is the root of the clinical herbal

> tradition, and treats asthma, stiff neck and shoulders, wet cough,

> jaundice, vomiting blood, and a wide range of clinical specialities

> from obstetrics to skin disorders. Very practical indeed, and timely

> for modern practice.

>

> I don't know about you, but prevention is a good part of my own

> practice, and my patients are very interested in lifestyle, diet,

> emotional health, and want to know the factors that lead to

> illness. . . what you call pathomechanisms. The principles of

> 'ancient China' haven't changed, just local conditions, and Chinese

> medicine is very adaptable to modern conditions.

>

> It is interesting that one of the priorities of the Obama

> administration is preventative health, which is much less expensive

> then heroic medical procedures.

>

> Certainly, if we can make a great impression on people by giving

> them help in conditions when none was available before, this is

> great. But that doesn't mean that one needs to not pay attention to

> pathomechanisms and underlying factors. If not, we are only doing

> part of our job.

>

> On May 4, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

> >

> > In ancient China physicians had the luxury of treating people before

> > they got ill. Remuneration was different and so were the times.

> > Nowadays, people don't come to us until they have exhausted every

> > other means of treatment. Today, we are often the last resort. And

> > we often succeed where others have failed.

> >

> > Times have changed and are changing. Are we ready for it? We are no

> > longer living in ancient China, we are here, now. Therefore, the

> > paradigm has shifted. We don't have the luxury of preventing

> > disease. Therefore, in our times, the superior doctor/practitioner

> > will be the one that can resolve the problem that no one else was

> > able to resolve. The one that can do what no one else can do. That

> > is the extraordinary practitioner, don't you think?

> >

> > It is easy to sit and philosophize and talk about pathomechanizms ad

> > nauseum. But what can you actually DO? Outcomes is where the true

> > answer lies.

> >

> > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > skip8080

> > Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:07 +0000

> > Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

> > Practitioner and an Ordinary One

> >

> > Ancient doctors asked this question too.

> >

> > One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats

> > diseases " before they occur " .

> >

> > this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he

> > can diagnose by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor

> > would need to need to examine the pulse as well.

> >

> > there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

> >

> > However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

> > " treat the spirit first. "

> > This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question

> > of how to diagnose the spirit.

> > Again, observation.

> >

> > I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of

> > practice " (*:

> >

> > Harry, in Beijing.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , " Daniel

> > Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote:

> > >

> > > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

> > extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

> > >

> > > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

> > have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

> > slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

> > illuminating.

> > >

> >

May 5, 2009

Can anyone name a superior physician?

I'd like to learn from this person.

Sun Si Miao wrote about this:

" Whenever a *great physician* treats diseases, he has to be mentally calm

and his disposition firm. He should not give way to wishes and desires, but

has to develop first a marked attitude of compassion. He should commit

himself firmly to the willingness to take the effort to save every living

creature.

If someone seeks help because of illness, or on the ground of another

difficulty, a great physician should not pay attention to status, wealth, or

age; neither should he question whether the particular person is attractive

or unattractive, whether he is an enemy or a friend, whether he is Chinese

or a foreigner, or finally, whether he is uneducated or educated. He should

meet everyone on equal ground; he should always act as if he were thinking

of himself. He should not desire anything and should ignore all

consequences; he is not to ponder over his own fortune or misfortune and

thus preserve life and have compassion for it. He should look upon those who

have come to grief as if he himself had been struck, and he should

sympathize with them deep in his heart. Neither dangerous mountain passes

nor the time of day, neither weather conditions nor hunger, thirst nor

fatigue should keep him from helping whole-heartedly. Whoever acts in this

manner is a great physician for the living. Whoever acts contrary to these

demands is a great thief for those who still have their spirits!

From early times famous persons frequently used certain living creatures for

the treatment of diseases, in order to thus help others in situations of

need. To be sure, it is said: " Little esteem for the beast and high esteem

for man, " but when love of life is concerned, man and animal are equal. If

one's cattle are mistreated, no use can be expected from it; object and

sentiments suffer equally. How much more applicable is this to man!

Whoever destroys life in order to save life places life at an even greater

distance. This is my good reason for the fact that I do not suggest the use

of any living creature as medicament in the present collection of

prescriptions. This does not concern the gadflies and the leeches. They have

already perished when they reach the market, and it is therefore permissible

to use them. As to the hen's eggs, we have to say the following: before

their content has been hatched out, they can be used in very urgent cases.

Otherwise, one should not burden oneself with this. To avoid their use is a

sign of great wisdom, but this will never be attained.

Whoever suffers from abominable things, such as ulcers or diarrhea, will be

looked upon with contempt by people. Yet even in such cases, this is my

view, an attitude of compassion, of sympathy, and of care should develop; by

no means should there arise an attitude of rejection.

Therefore, a *great physician* should possess a clear mind in order to look

at himself; he should make a dignified appearance, neither luminous nor

somber. It is his duty to reduce diseases and to diagnose sufferings and for

this purpose to examine carefully the external indications and the symptoms

appearing in the pulse. He has to include all the details, and should not

overlook anything. In the decision over the subsequent treatment with

acupuncture or with medicaments, nothing should occur that is contrary to

regulations. The saying goes: " In case of a disease, one has to help

quickly, " yet it is nevertheless indispensable to acquaint oneself fully

with the particular situation so that there remain no doubts. It is

important that the examination be carried out with perseverance. Wherever

someone's life is at stake, one should neither act hastily, nor rely on

one's own superiority and ability, and least of all keep one's own

reputation in mind. This would not correspond to the demands of humaneness!

In visiting the sick, whatever beautiful silks and fabrics fill the eye, the

physician is not allowed to look out for them either to the left or to the

right. Where the sounds of string instruments and instruments of bamboo fill

the ear, he should not evoke the impression that he delights in them. Where

delicious food is offered in stunning succession, he is to eat as if he

experienced no taste. Finally, where liquors are placed one next to the

other, he will look at them as if they did not exist. Such manners have

their origin in the assumption that if one single guest is not contented,

the whole party cannot be merry. A patient's aches and pains release one

from this obligation less than ever! However, if a physician is tranquil and

engrossed in merry thoughts, in addition to being conceited and complacent,

this is shameful for any human frame of mind. Such conduct is not suitable

to man and conceals the true meaning of medicine.

According to the reputations of medicine, it is not permissible to be

talkative and make provocative speeches, to make fun of others and raise

one's voice, to decide over right and wrong, and to discuss other people and

their business. Finally, it is inappropriate to emphasize one's reputation,

to belittle the rest of the physicians, and to praise one's own virtue.

Indeed, in actual life someone who has accidentally healed a disease then

strides around with his head raised, shows conceit, and announces that no

one in the entire world could measure up to him. In this respect, all

physicians are evidently incurable!

Lao Zi has said: When the conduct of men visibly reveals virtue, the humans

themselves will reward it. If, however, men commit virtues secretly, the

spirits will reward them. When the conduct of men visibly reveals misdeeds,

the humans themselves will take retribution. If, however, men commit their

misdeeds secretly, the spirits will take retribution. When comparing these

alternatives and the respective rewards that will be given in the time after

this life and still during this life, how could one ever make a wrong

decision?

Consequently, physicians should not rely on their own excellence, neither

should they strive with their whole heart for material goods. On the

contrary, they should develop an attitude of good will. If they move on the

right path, concealed from the eyes of their contemporaries, they will

receive great happiness as a reward without asking for it. The wealth of

others should not be the reason to prescribe precious and expensive drugs,

and thus make the access to help more difficult and underscore one's own

merits and abilities. Such conduct has to be regarded as contrary to the

teaching of magnanimity. The object is help. Therefore, I enter into all the

problems in such detail here. Who ever studies medicine should not consider

these problems insignificant! "

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/sunsimiao.htm

K

On 5/4/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

> Don,

> I may be a senior practitioner (hopefully, not too 'old'), but

> there's still a lot to learn and share. I am proud of the success

> you've carved out for yourself in the deep South, and you've found a

> very good niche to practice in. I think as you build a patient base

> over time that people will turn more to your support and expertise to

> stay healthy, rather than just come when in 'crisis mode'. Otherwise,

> the present poor state of affairs in public healthcare will continue,

> only no one will be able to afford the remedial treatment. . .

>

> Strength and blessing,

>

> On May 4, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Donald Snow wrote:

>

>>

>> Hi Zev:

>>

>> Nice hearing from you. You're right, it was an oversimplification.

>> But so was the statement from the past that " the superior doctor

>> treats before disease occurs. " You may see a number of folks for

>> preventive medicine, but I see very few of these. I certainly wish

>> most people would come on a PM basis or that they would see us

>> before things got bad. Unfortunately, that is not the case down

>> here. It wasn't the case when I practised in San Diego either.

>> However, you are one of the ancient ones and have a pretty developed

>> practice. I can't wait until I, too, am there.

>>

>> Nice talking to you again,

>>

>> Sincerely,

>>

>> You student forever,

>>

>> Don J. Snow

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> zrosenbe

>> Mon, 4 May 2009 12:18:56 -0700

>> Re: Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

>> Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>>

>> Don,

>>

>> This is a vast over-simplification. While disease prevention was a

>> major emphasis in the Nei Jing, it was by no means the sole focus of

>> classical medicine. In the very first chapter of the Su Wen, it

>> discusses how people had fallen away from healthy lifestyles, and

>> needed medical interventions in order to restore health.

>>

>> The Shang Han Za Bing Lun is the root of the clinical herbal

>> tradition, and treats asthma, stiff neck and shoulders, wet cough,

>> jaundice, vomiting blood, and a wide range of clinical specialities

>> from obstetrics to skin disorders. Very practical indeed, and timely

>> for modern practice.

>>

>> I don't know about you, but prevention is a good part of my own

>> practice, and my patients are very interested in lifestyle, diet,

>> emotional health, and want to know the factors that lead to

>> illness. . . what you call pathomechanisms. The principles of

>> 'ancient China' haven't changed, just local conditions, and Chinese

>> medicine is very adaptable to modern conditions.

>>

>> It is interesting that one of the priorities of the Obama

>> administration is preventative health, which is much less expensive

>> then heroic medical procedures.

>>

>> Certainly, if we can make a great impression on people by giving

>> them help in conditions when none was available before, this is

>> great. But that doesn't mean that one needs to not pay attention to

>> pathomechanisms and underlying factors. If not, we are only doing

>> part of our job.

>>

>> On May 4, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Donald Snow wrote:

>>

>> >

>> > In ancient China physicians had the luxury of treating people before

>> > they got ill. Remuneration was different and so were the times.

>> > Nowadays, people don't come to us until they have exhausted every

>> > other means of treatment. Today, we are often the last resort. And

>> > we often succeed where others have failed.

>> >

>> > Times have changed and are changing. Are we ready for it? We are no

>> > longer living in ancient China, we are here, now. Therefore, the

>> > paradigm has shifted. We don't have the luxury of preventing

>> > disease. Therefore, in our times, the superior doctor/practitioner

>> > will be the one that can resolve the problem that no one else was

>> > able to resolve. The one that can do what no one else can do. That

>> > is the extraordinary practitioner, don't you think?

>> >

>> > It is easy to sit and philosophize and talk about pathomechanizms ad

>> > nauseum. But what can you actually DO? Outcomes is where the true

>> > answer lies.

>> >

>> > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>> >

>> > Chinese Medicine

>> > skip8080

>> > Sun, 3 May 2009 23:53:07 +0000

>> > Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary

>> > Practitioner and an Ordinary One

>> >

>> > Ancient doctors asked this question too.

>> >

>> > One answer from the classics is that the superior doctor treats

>> > diseases " before they occur " .

>> >

>> > this would require superior diagnostic skills; it is said that he

>> > can diagnose by observing the face, whereas the ordinary doctor

>> > would need to need to examine the pulse as well.

>> >

>> > there's more on this in the Jin Gui Yao Lue-

>> >

>> > However, I have always been even more fascinated by the statement-

>> > " treat the spirit first. "

>> > This idea- to me, remains a mystery.... it also raises the question

>> > of how to diagnose the spirit.

>> > Again, observation.

>> >

>> > I also like Dons more contemporary idea of " expanding ones scope of

>> > practice " (*:

>> >

>> > Harry, in Beijing.

>> >

>> > Chinese Medicine , " Daniel

>> > Schulman " <daniel.schulman wrote:

>> > >

>> > > Don has posed the question: " What is the difference between an

>> > extraordinary practitioner and an ordinary one? "

>> > >

>> > > Daniel: Wow!! A truly fascinating question. Do we really want to

>> > have a thorough inquiry into this question? If we could keep it

>> > slow, thoughtful and honorable, it could be very interesting and

>> > illuminating.

>> > >

>> >

May 5, 2009

John,

Ralph Waldo Emerson said we should " hitch our wagon to a star " . I

think Sun Si-miao had a similar idea. If we can visualize and be

inspired by a high example of the tai yi/great physician, we will

raise ourselves up and become better and better with practice,

compassion, and study/study/study.

I've met a few aspiring great physicians along the way; Miki

Shima, Michael Broffman, Zeng Reng-xiu, Dan Bensky, a few others.

I've always held Moses Maimonides up as the ideal of the superior

physician . .

On May 4, 2009, at 8:09 PM, wrote:

>

> Can anyone name a superior physician?

> I'd like to learn from this person.

>

> Sun Si Miao wrote about this:

>

> " Whenever a *great physician* treats diseases, he has to be mentally

> calm

> and his disposition firm. He should not give way to wishes and

> desires, but

> has to develop first a marked attitude of compassion. He should commit

> himself firmly to the willingness to take the effort to save every

> living

> creature.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

May 5, 2009

Very nice. Thanks for writing all that out John, it seems to me be the intent

and the heart of this discussion.

Someone who has a whole new cardiac wing built around them in a major hospital

can still have humility and those qualities. Sometimes it is the patients

themselves or cliques of them, who by seeking a more 'Bombastic' practitioner,

make the showmanship inch up.

It's not much different than hearing someone recommend 'my doctor', or 'my

acupuncturist'. The familiarity is nice, but implying status points, makes for

more inter-disciplinary competition.

Someone who wants to be the best or most superior physician, well, good luck,

it may happen. I'm too aware of how far I have still trying to be the best I can

be.

--- On Mon, 5/4/09, <johnkokko wrote:

<johnkokko

Re: Re: The Difference Between an Extraordinary Practitioner and

an Ordinary One

Chinese Medicine

Monday, May 4, 2009, 11:09 PM