Guest guest Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Hello all, I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I can look up more information. Dan Clark, Acupuncturist _______________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Q\ uickAdd_062009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Dan, I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to the point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is non-contact needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point secured by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last technique is what I use in combination with moxa. You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on yinyanghouse.com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. Hope this helps. :0) Thomas ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > Hello all, > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > can look up more information. > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > ________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Q\ uickAdd_062009 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same way for both types... k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back ________________________________ Thomas Sørensen <> Chinese Medicine Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM Re: needleless treatments Hi Dan, I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to the point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is non-contact needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point secured by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last technique is what I use in combination with moxa. You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. Hope this helps. :0) Thomas ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > Hello all, > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > can look up more information. > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 I rarely use needles anymore. For at least the past ten years I have been using " BaGuaFa " which is my own synergized and varied combination of Ba Guan (empty suction-cupping) and Gua Sha. Results are reproducible by other practitioners I have taught. For me...... effectively moving Yin stagnation with strong Yin style treatments (when appropriate which is more often than not) affords more immediate and lasting results than with the use of Yang style treatments (needles, electro-acupuncture etc). Richard In a message dated 07/16/09 10:30:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: And let's not forget the application of microcurrent to the points along with SCENAR therapy and good ole moxa. Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) _johnkokko_ (johnkokko) Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:11:17 -0700 Re: needleless treatments Although I do practice insertion needling for most of my patients, especially when they find out that pressing the point is more painful than needle insertion/stimulatine there are many non-insertion methods that can be used: magnet therapy (mainly Japanese developed) laser therapy (not in our scope of practice?) essential oils on points (Jeffrey Yuen) Acu-tonics (tuning forks on and over point areas) gold/ silver non--insertion needles (mainly Japanese) Non-insertion filiform needle techniques (Shudo Denmei and others) Acu-pressure / Tui-na / Shiatsu (finger pressing) Medical Qi-gong / Reiki ( " energy work " ) Actually, I wonder if anyone needs a license to perform the above techniques? K On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Karen Adams <_turusachan_ (turusachan) > wrote: > > > Hi Thomas - thanks for the explanation. > > So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you could > be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the 'actual' points? > What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm choosing > to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and want to use Liv > 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv channel, will it still > have the spirit and function of Liv 14? > > (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and Liv > 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible locations of the > other 363+ points!) > > > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ____________ ____ ____ > Thomas Sørensen <_thomas@ditlivditpotthomas@dit_ () <thomas%40ditlivditthomas%40dith> > > > _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) <Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_<WBTra> > Thursday, July 16, 2009 8:00:54 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > > tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > > > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > > way for both types... > > k > > > > Karen R. Adams, > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > > 25 - 27 Bank Row > > Greenfield, MA 01301 > > 413-768-8333 > > > > Do or do not. > > There is no try. > > > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpothomas@ditli> > > > > > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > > Re: needleless treatments > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > > the > > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > > non-contact > > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > > secured > > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > :0) > > > > Thomas > > > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > > can look up more information. > > > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > > _http://windowslive._ (http://windowslive./) com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Althea Akupunktur > > Albanigade 23A, kld. > > 5000 Odense C > > > > Tlf..: 31 25 92 26 > > _http://www.ditlivdi_ (http://www.ditlivdi/) tpotentiale. dk > > > > RAB: 2006059 > > CVR: 27322646 > > > > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse > > Reg.: 9133 > > Konto: 2050409 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Althea Akupunktur > Albanigade 23A, kld. > 5000 Odense C > > Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 > _http://www.ditlivdi_ (http://www.ditlivdi/) tpotentiale. dk > > RAB: 2006059 > CVR: 27322646 > > Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse > Reg..: 9133 > Konto: 2050409 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- , L.Ac Turtle Island Integrative Health www.turtleclinic.www TCM Review director CA State Board Prep Courses www.tcmreview.www [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] **************Can love help you live longer? Find out now. (http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships\ /?ncid=emlweu slove00000001) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Karen, By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment location for needling and/or contact/non-contact needling in Japanese Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best to treat. A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical location. Hope this clarifies things... :0) Thomas tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > way for both types... > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ________________________________ > Thomas Sørensen <> > Chinese Medicine > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Dan, > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > the > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > non-contact > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > secured > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > Hope this helps. > > :0) > > Thomas > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > can look up more information. > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Thomas - thanks for the explanation. So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you could be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the 'actual' points? What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm choosing to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and want to use Liv 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv channel, will it still have the spirit and function of Liv 14? (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and Liv 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible locations of the other 363+ points!) k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 - 27 Bank Row Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 Do or do not. There is no try. Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back ________________________________ Thomas Sørensen <> Chinese Medicine Thursday, July 16, 2009 8:00:54 AM Re: needleless treatments Hi Karen, By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best to treat. A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical location. Hope this clarifies things... :0) Thomas tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > way for both types... > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpot entiale.dk> > > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Dan, > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > the > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > non-contact > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > secured > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > Hope this helps. > > :0) > > Thomas > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > can look up more information. > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Although I do practice insertion needling for most of my patients, especially when they find out that pressing the point is more painful than needle insertion/stimulation there are many non-insertion methods that can be used: magnet therapy (mainly Japanese developed) laser therapy (not in our scope of practice?) essential oils on points (Jeffrey Yuen) Acu-tonics (tuning forks on and over point areas) gold/ silver non--insertion needles (mainly Japanese) Non-insertion filiform needle techniques (Shudo Denmei and others) Acu-pressure / Tui-na / Shiatsu (finger pressing) Medical Qi-gong / Reiki ( " energy work " ) Actually, I wonder if anyone needs a license to perform the above techniques? K On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: > > > Hi Thomas - thanks for the explanation. > > So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you could > be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the 'actual' points? > What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm choosing > to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and want to use Liv > 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv channel, will it still > have the spirit and function of Liv 14? > > (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and Liv > 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible locations of the > other 363+ points!) > > > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ________________________________ > Thomas Sørensen <<thomas%40ditlivditpotentiale.dk> > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Thursday, July 16, 2009 8:00:54 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > > tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > > > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > > way for both types... > > k > > > > Karen R. Adams, > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > > 25 - 27 Bank Row > > Greenfield, MA 01301 > > 413-768-8333 > > > > Do or do not. > > There is no try. > > > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpot entiale.dk> > > > > > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > > Re: needleless treatments > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > > the > > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > > non-contact > > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > > secured > > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > :0) > > > > Thomas > > > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > > can look up more information. > > > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 And let's not forget the application of microcurrent to the points along with SCENAR therapy and good ole moxa. Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM Chinese Medicine johnkokko Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:11:17 -0700 Re: needleless treatments Although I do practice insertion needling for most of my patients, especially when they find out that pressing the point is more painful than needle insertion/stimulation there are many non-insertion methods that can be used: magnet therapy (mainly Japanese developed) laser therapy (not in our scope of practice?) essential oils on points (Jeffrey Yuen) Acu-tonics (tuning forks on and over point areas) gold/ silver non--insertion needles (mainly Japanese) Non-insertion filiform needle techniques (Shudo Denmei and others) Acu-pressure / Tui-na / Shiatsu (finger pressing) Medical Qi-gong / Reiki ( " energy work " ) Actually, I wonder if anyone needs a license to perform the above techniques? K On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Karen Adams <turusachan wrote: > > > Hi Thomas - thanks for the explanation. > > So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you could > be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the 'actual' points? > What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm choosing > to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and want to use Liv > 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv channel, will it still > have the spirit and function of Liv 14? > > (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and Liv > 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible locations of the > other 363+ points!) > > > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ________________________________ > Thomas Sørensen <<thomas%40ditlivditpotentiale.dk> > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Thursday, July 16, 2009 8:00:54 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > > tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > > > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > > way for both types... > > k > > > > Karen R. Adams, > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > > 25 - 27 Bank Row > > Greenfield, MA 01301 > > 413-768-8333 > > > > Do or do not. > > There is no try. > > > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpot entiale.dk> > > > > > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > > Re: needleless treatments > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > > the > > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > > non-contact > > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > > secured > > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > :0) > > > > Thomas > > > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > > can look up more information. > > > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Hi Karen, We've touched upon a couple of huge and interesting subjects here....... > So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you > could be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the > 'actual' points? That would be a fair assumption however in Japanese acupuncture we use a feedback system that tells us that the points we use are not " merely " ashii points, but in fact are the right points. We use pulse and abdominal patterns to assess whether we've chosen the right point and has chosen the right way as well as amount of stimuli. Points that are simply ashii points will not create the desired changes in pulses or abdominal patterns. It is important to underline that Japanese Traditional Acupuncture and (T)CM might both come from the same ancient practice of medicine, but are altogether two very different therapeutic systems with their various sub-systems of therapy. Japanese acupuncture (especially Meridian Therapy - obviously there are many forms of acupuncture in Japan that are very different) relies on 5E theory, but even more on practical experience due to it's history of being developed by blind practitioners whereas TCM is more relying of 8 principal theory as well as six stages, and so on (NOT a bad thing - just different). They have evolved from the same paradigm of thought, but have evolved in two very different socio-econimco-cultural settings which shows in their respective approach towards aeteology, pathology and therapeutic intervention. So maybe the anatomical locations for points will have a bigger effect for TCM style acupuncture relying heavily on De Qi / nerve stimulation and as such use the more modern point location and stimulation techniques as well as needling depth as stipulated in the 50's; and " Live points " might be more appropriate for the practice of Japanese Acupuncture that will do anything to avoid the patient feeling De Qi and is based directly on the SuWenLingShu, NanJing, JiaYiJing etc. using their point location and such. Again I am not implying superiority of either system, but just noting that they are different. > What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm > choosing to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and > want to use Liv 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv > channel, will it still have the spirit and function of Liv 14? The style of Japanese Traditional Acupuncture I practice is called Meridian Therapy simply because it uses the points to balance the meridians. The meridians and their balance is the main focus of therapy - symptoms come second and as such the individual points, their names and their indications have secondary importance. When treating specific symptoms often the Japanese indications for a given point will differ (substantially) from the Chinese indications. An example of indications for symptomatic treatment in the form of Meridian Therapy I practice: In Blood stasis the indication for using Sp10 (Xue Hai) would be the presence of a nodule with sharp pressure pain on Bl17 (Ge Shu / Xue Hai) with the patient in sitting position; also Sp10 will show defeciency on the surface and stiffness and/or pressure pain in the depth. Using an appropriate stimulation on Sp10 will release Bl17 relaxing the diaphragm restoring proper communication between upper and Middle Jiao restoring Blood circulation and nourishing Blood. So more than a symptomatic indication there's always a physical objective indications. There is no specific concept of difference between Jing Qi and Shen levels in treatment since their all just different form/movements of Yüan Qi so again there's a very simple and pragmatic approach to therapy. > (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and > Liv 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible > locations of the other 363+ points!) Well the JiaYi Jing lists classical point locations. Lu7 is another example of an important point that does not share modern location. For the movement of all the points.... happy hunting..... :0D Hope this isn't too much of a ramble and I hope it is answers the question... :0) Thomas ,___ -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Thomas, It is my understanding that prior to the onset of hospitals in China this was the method that was taught. I believe Kikko mentioned this as well. If we read the ancient texts, they are very loose about where a particular point is (was), and much like sheet music that gives a good amount of freedom to the performer, allows the practitioner to use and develop their skills to know through palpation and intuition where the site that is needed to be addressed is located. Difficult to replicate, but then that's Chinese medicine. Regards, Tymothy > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non-contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Tymothy, That is very probable, but there are a lot of differing opinions on that as well as there was never one truly unified CM until TCM came around, so I'm thinking: Does anyone really know? However it is clear from the early classical resources such as the JiaYiJing that depth of insertion was much more shallow than it is today and recommendations for retention time of needles were much shorter often counted in breaths. Both the NeiJing and the JiaYiJing describes the nine classical needles and a few of them in are described as being for non-insertion. > It is my understanding that prior to the onset of hospitals in China > this was the method that was taught. I believe Kikko mentioned this as > well. > If we read the ancient texts, they are very loose about where a > particular point is (was), and much like sheet music that gives a good > amount of freedom to the performer, allows the practitioner to use and > develop their skills to know through palpation and intuition where the > site that is needed to be addressed is located. Well actuallyI find that the JiaYiJing is rather specific in it's point location and it forms the basis of most point location today. However all the classics on acupuncture always admonishes us the practitioner to search for the point and to clear our minds before that. So I think that you are absolutely right. > Difficult to replicate, but then that's Chinese medicine. And that's one of it's charms and strengths :0) :0) Thomas -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivditpotentiale.dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Hi Thomas and all: First of all, thank you Thomas for your concise and informative posts, I always enjoy reading them. --Thomas- unified CM until TCM came around, so I'm thinking: Does anyone really know? --- I can answer this three ways: 1. Written records are a supplement to the primarily oral / experiential tradition of CM; asking my lineage teacher results in a clear answer, non-insertion needling etc have been part of the tradition for a long time 3. knowing that qi gong is a part of our tradition and that medical qi gong is often performed without contact, one can imagine what an acupuncturist with qi gong training would do at times (non-contact needling). Natural evolution betwen the two methods. 4. martial traditions are also based in the same physiology that CM uses, and the highest martial techniques involve little to no-contact strikes. Again, the influence and transfer of qi is primary, physical contact not so much. There is a rich tradition of feeling the qi and treating the qi in CM. That said, it is absolutely amazing how non-sighted acupuncturists have elevated and elaborated the art. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ Thomas Sørensen <> Chinese Medicine Friday, 17 July, 2009 1:30:53 Re: needleless treatments Hi Tymothy, That is very probable, but there are a lot of differing opinions on that as well as there was never one truly However it is clear from the early classical resources such as the JiaYiJing that depth of insertion was much more shallow than it is today and recommendations for retention time of needles were much shorter often counted in breaths. Both the NeiJing and the JiaYiJing describes the nine classical needles and a few of them in are described as being for non-insertion. > It is my understanding that prior to the onset of hospitals in China > this was the method that was taught. I believe Kikko mentioned this as > well. > If we read the ancient texts, they are very loose about where a > particular point is (was), and much like sheet music that gives a good > amount of freedom to the performer, allows the practitioner to use and > develop their skills to know through palpation and intuition where the > site that is needed to be addressed is located. Well actuallyI find that the JiaYiJing is rather specific in it's point location and it forms the basis of most point location today. However all the classics on acupuncture always admonishes us the practitioner to search for the point and to clear our minds before that. So I think that you are absolutely right. > Difficult to replicate, but then that's Chinese medicine. And that's one of it's charms and strengths :0) :0) Thomas -- Althea Akupunktur Albanigade 23A, kld. 5000 Odense C Tlf.: 31 25 92 26 http://www.ditlivdi tpotentiale. dk RAB: 2006059 CVR: 27322646 Frøslev Mollerup Sparekasse Reg.: 9133 Konto: 2050409 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Great John, along w moxa and bleed tx, I assume and they are all within my scope of practice. Fun isn't it? --- On Thu, 7/16/09, <johnkokko wrote: <johnkokko Re: needleless treatments Chinese Medicine Thursday, July 16, 2009, 10:11 AM Although I do practice insertion needling for most of my patients, especially when they find out that pressing the point is more painful than needle insertion/stimulati on there are many non-insertion methods that can be used: magnet therapy (mainly Japanese developed) laser therapy (not in our scope of practice?) essential oils on points (Jeffrey Yuen) Acu-tonics (tuning forks on and over point areas) gold/ silver non--insertion needles (mainly Japanese) Non-insertion filiform needle techniques (Shudo Denmei and others) Acu-pressure / Tui-na / Shiatsu (finger pressing) Medical Qi-gong / Reiki ( " energy work " ) Actually, I wonder if anyone needs a license to perform the above techniques? K On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 5:55 AM, Karen Adams <turusachan > wrote: > > > Hi Thomas - thanks for the explanation. > > So when you're talking about a 'sick' channel and finding points, you could > be using what TCM would call ah shi points, rather than the 'actual' points? > What does that do to the spirit and functions of each point? If I'm choosing > to put the weight of the treatment on the spirit level and want to use Liv > 14, if the palpated point is 3 cun back down the Liv channel, will it still > have the spirit and function of Liv 14? > > (It was interesting, the part about the possible locations of Lu 5 and Liv > 3 that you mentioned. I'd look to know about the possible locations of the > other 363+ points!) > > > k > > Karen R. Adams, > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > 25 - 27 Bank Row > Greenfield, MA 01301 > 413-768-8333 > > Do or do not. > There is no try. > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpot entiale.dk<thomas%40ditlivdit potentiale. dk> > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Thursday, July 16, 2009 8:00:54 AM > Re: needleless treatments > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > > tor, 16 07 2009 kl. 03:09 -0700, skrev Karen Adams: > > > > > > > Hi Thomas - can you say a little more about point location when using > > needleless tx? what is the difference between a 'live point' and the > > more 'fixed location' you talked about? Is the latter the anatomical > > location? I'm intrigued. I often do treatment without needles, using > > my fingers with extremely light pressure. but I locate points the same > > way for both types... > > k > > > > Karen R. Adams, > > Lic Ac, Dipl Ac > > 25 - 27 Bank Row > > Greenfield, MA 01301 > > 413-768-8333 > > > > Do or do not. > > There is no try. > > > > Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Thomas Sørensen <thomas@ditlivditpo t entiale.dk> > > > > > Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:53:27 AM > > Re: needleless treatments > > > > Hi Dan, > > > > I use Japanese style non-insertional techniques almost exclusively on > > all my patients with better results than when I treated mainly with > > needles (could be due to my poor needle technique?!) > > > > There's a wide variety of different techniques and tools for > > non-insertional acupuncture, but most of them require some training to > > be efficient as well as " rethinking " point location palpating for a so > > called " Live point " instead of needling a more fixed point location. > > > > There's contact needling where the needle is just lightly touched to > > the > > point - this can be done in a variety of ways - and there is > > non-contact > > needling where the needle actually does not come into contact with the > > skin at all but is held somewhere between 1~5 mm above the point > > secured > > by the oshide - the thumb and indexfinger of the left hand forming a > > ring gently holding the needle in place over the point. This last > > technique is what I use in combination with moxa. > > > > You can read more about contact needling in " Japanese Acupuncture " by > > Stephen Birch and Junko Ida. There's also some information on > > yinyanghouse. com > Theory > Japanese Acupuncture. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > :0) > > > > Thomas > > > > ons, 08 07 2009 kl. 15:04 -0600, skrev Daniel Clark: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I was wondering who employs needleless treatment for anyone that has > > > needle phobia. Will you please share what you what method/s you use > > > and how effective is it compared to acupuncture needles and where I > > > can look up more information. > > > > > > Dan Clark, Acupuncturist > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ > > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > > http://windowslive. com/Tutorial/ Hotmail/QuickAdd ?ocid=TXT_ > > TAGLM_WL_ HM_Tutorial_ QuickAdd_ 062009 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Yes, to me it's like the middle ground of massage and intuitive care(best if there is a grounding in at least the basics). Then pointing or pressing or a connection happens. touch with all that means --- On Thu, 7/16/09, miracles28 <tymothys wrote: miracles28 <tymothys Re: needleless treatments Chinese Medicine Thursday, July 16, 2009, 4:54 PM Thomas, It is my understanding that prior to the onset of hospitals in China this was the method that was taught. I believe Kikko mentioned this as well. If we read the ancient texts, they are very loose about where a particular point is (was), and much like sheet music that gives a good amount of freedom to the performer, allows the practitioner to use and develop their skills to know through palpation and intuition where the site that is needed to be addressed is located. Difficult to replicate, but then that's Chinese medicine. Regards, Tymothy > > Hi Karen, > > By the " fixed location " I meant the anatomical location typically taught > in CM schools currently. A " Live point " is a Japanese term denoting a > location of an active point - The best possible location for treatment. > The Live point will almost always differ in location from the anatomical > location. It is always the live point that is chosen as treatment > location for needling and/or contact/non- contact needling in Japanese > Meridian Therapy / Traditional Japanese Acupuncture. > > If there's any form of pathology in a channel one or more of it's points > become active. They/it will move and start to exhibit changes such as > dryness, humidity, pressure pain, changes in color, changes in tension, > nodules etc. due to the pathological change of the channel. > > When looking for an active point to treat the anatomical location is > chosen as a starting point for palpation. One palpates up and down the > meridian and around the anatomical location to find the place of biggest > pathological change - this will be the live point and as such the best > to treat. > > A couple of examples: Lu 5 can move 1~2 cun up or down from it's (I use > the classical anatomical location on top of the blood vessel in the > middle of the elbow bend just lateral to the tendon) anatomical location > on the Lung channel. Liv 3 can move up to a few Fen from it's anatomical > location. > > Hope this clarifies things... > > :0) > > Thomas > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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