Guest guest Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump has gone bankrupt three times! Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377099x1201454424/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations. As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: martyeisen <martyeisen Re: Obama Health Care Chinese Medicine Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump has gone bankrupt three times! Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Betty, I agree with your position of needing to understand all the options before deciding upon a course of action, and this should include the single payer option as well. As far as having a good system, we are rated 37th by the WHO and pay more then twice as much as the next industrialized nation for this care. It is not cost efficient and full waste, fraud and abuse by the HMO's. It is time to fix this mess before we go bankrupt. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine medicwoman Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:48:34 -0700 Re: Re: Obama Health Care You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations. As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: martyeisen <martyeisen Re: Obama Health Care Chinese Medicine Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump has gone bankrupt three times! Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 good overview...hope u can open the link   http://www.opednews.com/articles/Obamacare--A-Health-Care-by-Stephen-Lendman-090\ 720-467.html " Lose your mind so you can come to your senses.You cannot do all the good the world needs,thus the world needs all the good you can do. " Dr.Twyla Hoodah, D.O.M., A.P. SpiritcareAcupuncture.org     --- On Mon, 7/20/09, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Re: Obama Health Care Chinese Traditional Medicine Monday, July 20, 2009, 1:19 PM Betty, I agree with your position of needing to understand all the options before deciding upon a course of action, and this should include the single payer option as well. As far as having a good system, we are rated 37th by the WHO and pay more then twice as much as the next industrialized nation for this care. It is not cost efficient and full waste, fraud and abuse by the HMO's. It is time to fix this mess before we go bankrupt.   Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine medicwoman Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:48:34 -0700 Re: TCM - Re: Obama Health Care            You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations.   As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty   --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: martyeisen <martyeisen Re: Obama Health Care Chinese Medicine Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM  In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump has gone bankrupt three times! Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= JulystepsfooterNO62 ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 No, we really don't have a good health care system. We spend twice as much money on health care as the next highest-paying country and we are over 300th on the list of most healthy countries. I used to work in hospitals and I can tell you that our current system seriously sucks. Chinese Medicine , MedicWoman <medicwoman wrote: > > You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations. > As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty > > > --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: > > > martyeisen <martyeisen > Re: Obama Health Care > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM > > > > > > > > > In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on > fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your > lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank > failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about > 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. > They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump > has gone bankrupt three times! > Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, > mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. > A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge > bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse > is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. > AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans > huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? > Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an > emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance > and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, > MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week > before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you > might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital > has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. > There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just > appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight > areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed > because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. > Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for > political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. > Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " > since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of > dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The > Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL > COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. > This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents > combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS > OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME > ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO > BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. > > ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62 ) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > No, we really don't have a good health care system. We spend twice as much money on health care as the next highest-paying country and we are over 300th on the list of most healthy countries. > > I used to work in hospitals and I can tell you that our current system seriously sucks. > Anyone who thinks our current health care system is fine the way it is, should watch Michael Moore's " Sicko. " I am actually not big fan of his, but this movie was done without the hyperboly and attack journalism that normally run rampant in his movies. Watching this film makes you realize that we don't actually have a real health care system. We spend obscene amounts of money for laughably inferior care (as compared to other countries)and yet many people (with insurance) find themselves without coverage if they actually have a medical emergency. I am not saying anything is better than what we currently have; we should be very vigilant, both individually and as a profession, that a health care bill isn't just written by the pharma lobby. It is, however, hard to imagine that anything could be worse than what we " have " right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 True. WE do have a lousy health care system, but it can get very much worse, and it ethically can get so that old folks and those with chronic disorders are left out by being put to the back of the line, which truthfully isn't much better than refusing to cover them. The only inefficiencies that can be dealt with will be countered in no time by ever-expanding government inefficiencies. I guarantee you that we will be even more inefficient than any European government system in no time. David Molony On Jul 22, 2009, at 12:06:35 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Re: Obama Health Care July 22, 2009 12:06:35 AM EDT Chinese Medicine No, we really don't have a good health care system. We spend twice as much money on health care as the next highest-paying country and we are over 300th on the list of most healthy countries. I used to work in hospitals and I can tell you that our current system seriously sucks. --- In Chinese Medicine , MedicWoman <medicwoman wrote: > > You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations. > As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty > > > --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen <martyeisen wrote: > > > martyeisen <martyeisen > Re: Obama Health Care > To: Chinese Medicine > Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM > > > > > > > > > In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on > fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your > lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank > failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about > 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. > They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump > has gone bankrupt three times! > Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, > mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. > A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge > bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse > is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. > AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans > huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? > Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an > emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance > and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, > MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week > before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you > might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital > has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. > There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just > appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight > areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed > because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. > Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for > political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. > Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " > since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of > dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The > Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL > COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. > This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents > combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS > OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME > ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO > BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. > > ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= > JulystepsfooterNO62 ) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Why so pessimistic, eg; " not only will we have the problems of the Europeans, but we will be EVEN WORSE! " . Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? Couldn't we learn from their system? No matter what system you have, there will people who complain about it. So I do not think that it means much that there are people who complain about the European/Canadian systems. Lots of people are very happy with their systems too. Chinese Medicine , acuman1 <acuman1 wrote: > > True. WE do have a lousy health care system, but it can get very much worse, and it ethically can get so that old folks and those with chronic disorders are left out by being put to the back of the line, which truthfully isn't much better than refusing to cover them. The only inefficiencies that can be dealt with will be countered in no time by ever-expanding government inefficiencies. > I guarantee you that we will be even more inefficient than any European government system in no time. > David Molony > > On Jul 22, 2009, at 12:06:35 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > heylaurag <heylaurag > Re: Obama Health Care > July 22, 2009 12:06:35 AM EDT > Chinese Medicine > No, we really don't have a good health care system. We spend twice as much money on health care as the next highest-paying country and we are over 300th on the list of most healthy countries. > > I used to work in hospitals and I can tell you that our current system seriously sucks. > > --- In Chinese Medicine , MedicWoman <medicwoman@> wrote: > > > > You are right on the money with your statement. I also just read that Obama Care will prevent people from buying private insurance after a certain date. You will be allowed to keep what you now have but after that date the insurers will not be allowed to sell you private insurance. That means if your company provides healthcare and you leave your job or if you lose your job or lose your current private healthcare, you will be stuck with national healthcare with all it's rationing and regulations. > > As we find out more and more, I like it lesws and less. We do have a very good healthcare system. Except for the desire to get tighter control of people, there is no reason to rush into something so important without giving all a chance to read and understand it and voice an opinion. When they control your healthcare, they control you. God bless.............Betty > > > > > > --- On Sat, 7/18/09, martyeisen@ <martyeisen@> wrote: > > > > > > martyeisen@ <martyeisen@> > > Re: Obama Health Care > > To: Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, July 18, 2009, 3:25 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In order to pass legislation, they manufacture crises and also play on > > fears to make the financial situation seem worse to take more control of your > > lives and business. For example, in 2008, there were 25 insured bank > > failures. Up to March 20, 2009, there were 20 bank failures. There are about > > 8,280 insured banks. Thus, only a small percentage of banks have failed. > > They should be allowed to fail and use Chapter 11 to reorganize. Trump > > has gone bankrupt three times! > > Allowing government to take over and run a business leads to inefficiency, > > mismanagement or bankruptcy as in social security and the postal service. > > A more recent example is AIG; the government bailout included huge > > bonuses. Then, later, the senators feigned outrage over the bonuses! Even worse > > is that most of the senators didn't read the bill before voting on it. > > AIG used some of the funds to bail out European banks! Who gives or loans > > huge sums of money without carefully specifying usage? > > Everyone can get health care, even if you are uninsured. You go to an > > emergency room. You may have to wait, but not as long as if you had insurance > > and went to a private doctor. The majority of doctors can't do x-ray, > > MRI's etc. or even blood tests in their office It might at least week > > before you go to another facility and receive the test results. Then, you > > might have to go to a specialist, which will take more time. A good hospital > > has all the equipment to do the required tests and specialists on-call. > > There are now 31 czars. They are not investigated by the senate and just > > appointed by Obama. Most of them are not experts in their oversight > > areas. For example, the car czar ha no expertise in autos. They were appointed > > because they supported Obama or raised huge sums of money for him. > > Similarly, most the money doled out in the so-called stimulus package was for > > political payoffs and will do nothing to stimulate the economy. > > Acupuncturist s will eventually get nothing from the " health care reform, " > > since they don't have strong lobbyists and can contribute millions of > > dollars to politicians. The USA has the best health care in the world. The > > Obama NATIONAL plan will destroy this, just as SIMILAR PLANS DID IN ALL > > COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NATIONAL HEALTH CARE. > > This president has already spent more money than all of the presidents > > combined. The USA is being driven into bankruptcy. EACH TRILLION DOLLARS > > OWED, AT 3% INTEREST, COSTS 82.2 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY IN INTEREST! SOME > > ESTIMATES, IF ALL THE SPENDING KEEPS UP, IS THAT THE NATIONAL DEBT IS GOING TO > > BE AT LEAST 16 TRILLION DOLLARS. > > > > ************ **A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > > steps! > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7099x1201454424/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd= > > JulystepsfooterNO62 ) > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? No, it is not possible. The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from not wasting our money is to give them less. Respectfully, Douglas Knapp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Sorry, but in my opinion that's just a republican myth that you've bought into. I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic, because that's not my intention. But just because government systems have problems doesn't mean they are complete failures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fire department, police, milatary, school system,military, welfare, CORPORATE WELFARE, infrastructure system (roads etc), medicare, medicaid, etc...its all imperfect, yes. But its a heck of a lot better than not having any of those things. Its black and white thinking to say that the government can't do anything right. And its the myth that motivates us to give money to the wealthiest 5% of the nation on the backs of the rest of us. Don't believe the hype!! These systems are all works-in-progress. Nothing man-made is perfect and it never will be. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it doesn't mean there's no value in them. Would you rather have insurance companies make decisions about your health? REALLY? These are the people who pay doctors to figure out sneaky ways to deny treatments for dying patients. The government is a much more neutral figure. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that is spent on our current system that would be totally unnecessary in a single-payer system. All the money we are spending trying to get insurance companies to pay could instead be spent on our actual health. Chinese Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? > > > No, it is not possible. > > The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from not wasting our money is to give them less. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 David I agree with your comments. The Obama plan will in some ways copy what Florida has at teaching hospitals. It is LAW that at a teaching hospital in Florida if anything goes wrong neither the hospital nor the doctor can be sued. Many states fought against this and now if this passes it will be shoved down their throats across the nation. And the NEW physicians will be what is already called physician substitutes (ARNPs, PAs and even MAs) who will be distantly supervised by an MD you will never likely see. I have seen this already in an ER at a hospital in Lake Worth, FL last year when I visited a family member. A student doctor (who pays to be there) reporting on the x-rays. And the female who wheeled the family member to the x-ray had her ID badge turned backwards (purposefully) so one could not make out that she was just a patient care helper. And the student doctor wore no ID badge....but I was able to make out his mumbling that he was just a student doctor. And right on......the chronic disorders and major surgeries will more than likely NOT be covered. This so-called universal coverage will be for the basic everyday doctor visit so the physician substitute can recommend MORE drugs to take. If people paid attention to Obama last night he was talking about either taking a blue pill or a red one depending upon which one was cheaper. I didn't hear him say anything about NOT taking a pill as an option. Just another government con-job and the public..... out of fear....... buys right into it especially if it doesn't cost anything. Richard In a message dated 07/22/09 6:57:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, acuman1 writes: True. WE do have a lousy health care system, but it can get very much worse, and it ethically can get so that old folks and those with chronic disorders are left out by being put to the back of the line, which truthfully isn't much better than refusing to cover them. The only inefficiencies that can be dealt with will be countered in no time by ever-expanding government inefficiencies. I guarantee you that we will be even more inefficient than any European government system in no time. David Molony **************Dell Deals: Treat yourself to a sweet deal on popular laptops! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1223100673x1201716527/aol?redir=http:%2\ F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D7) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 It appears that you have an opinion different from many of us and appears somewhat biased to the left. That's not bad, but others might have different biases and opinions. However, one just has to look at FEMA, social security, and the current government run social medicine programs called medicare and medicade. If they can't run these, how can they run the total system? Secondly, if insuring those 45 million people were so important, why didn't he commit any of the 1.7 trillion dollar pork-stimulus package toward insuring those folks? And lastly, that 45 million is not a true estimate. Over 9.5 million of the 45 make over $70,000 a year and " choose " not to have insurance. Another 12 to 20 million are not citizens of this country. That leaves 15 to 20 million that don't have insurance, of which a large number are young folks who also do not think they need insurance. The other folks without seem to get care in most ERs at not cost to them at all. I must agree, though, that our health care system is broken and is way too expensive. But all parties must sit down together and think rationally. The health care system must give citizens true choice, and that includes AOM and any other medicine that " does no, or little, harm. " Tort laws must also be reformed. I'm so tired of hearing about " crises " after " crises " and other scare tactics. The messages of the boy who cried wolf are getting a little old now. Just another opinion. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine heylaurag Thu, 23 Jul 2009 03:48:46 +0000 Re: Obama Health Care Sorry, but in my opinion that's just a republican myth that you've bought into. I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic, because that's not my intention. But just because government systems have problems doesn't mean they are complete failures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fire department, police, milatary, school system,military, welfare, CORPORATE WELFARE, infrastructure system (roads etc), medicare, medicaid, etc...its all imperfect, yes. But its a heck of a lot better than not having any of those things. Its black and white thinking to say that the government can't do anything right. And its the myth that motivates us to give money to the wealthiest 5% of the nation on the backs of the rest of us. Don't believe the hype!! These systems are all works-in-progress. Nothing man-made is perfect and it never will be. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it doesn't mean there's no value in them. Would you rather have insurance companies make decisions about your health? REALLY? These are the people who pay doctors to figure out sneaky ways to deny treatments for dying patients. The government is a much more neutral figure. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that is spent on our current system that would be totally unnecessary in a single-payer system. All the money we are spending trying to get insurance companies to pay could instead be spent on our actual health. Chinese Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? > > > No, it is not possible. > > The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from not wasting our money is to give them less. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 We already have two government run healthcare systems, medicare and medicade, they are inefficient, bureaucratically top heavy, rife with fraud, and are currently bankrupting social security. What makes you think that the government could do it better when they can't even fix what they have now? ________________________________ heylaurag <heylaurag Chinese Medicine Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:48:46 PM Re: Obama Health Care Sorry, but in my opinion that's just a republican myth that you've bought into. I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic, because that's not my intention. But just because government systems have problems doesn't mean they are complete failures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fire department, police, milatary, school system,military, welfare, CORPORATE WELFARE, infrastructure system (roads etc), medicare, medicaid, etc...its all imperfect, yes. But its a heck of a lot better than not having any of those things. Its black and white thinking to say that the government can't do anything right. And its the myth that motivates us to give money to the wealthiest 5% of the nation on the backs of the rest of us. Don't believe the hype!! These systems are all works-in-progress. Nothing man-made is perfect and it never will be. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it doesn't mean there's no value in them. Would you rather have insurance companies make decisions about your health? REALLY? These are the people who pay doctors to figure out sneaky ways to deny treatments for dying patients. The government is a much more neutral figure. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that is spent on our current system that would be totally unnecessary in a single-payer system. All the money we are spending trying to get insurance companies to pay could instead be spent on our actual health. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman@ ...> wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? > > > No, it is not possible. > > The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from not wasting our money is to give them less. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 We already have two government run healthcare systems, medicare and medicade, they are inefficient, bureaucratically top heavy, rife with fraud, and are currently bankrupting social security. What makes you think that the government could do it better when they can't even fix what they have now? I don't believe that what we have now works. That doesn't mean that i am approaching this as a black or white scenario. I do not view this issue through party, both of which are fundamentally the same. I say these things because of the government's track record. I am not only a physician but also a student of history. Do you realize that the richest 5%, according to 2006 government tax records, start at $152,542? I don't know if where you live, but let me tell you, that that is not alot of money here in NYC. Again, the health care system in this country is rife with problems, the largest being the hold that the large pharmaceutical companies have over it. The government, being beholden to corporate influence, can not solve this problem through nationalization, regardless of individual good intentions. Respectfully, Douglas Knapp ________________________________ heylaurag <heylaurag Chinese Medicine Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:48:46 PM Re: Obama Health Care Sorry, but in my opinion that's just a republican myth that you've bought into. I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic, because that's not my intention. But just because government systems have problems doesn't mean they are complete failures. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The fire department, police, milatary, school system,military, welfare, CORPORATE WELFARE, infrastructure system (roads etc), medicare, medicaid, etc...its all imperfect, yes. But its a heck of a lot better than not having any of those things. Its black and white thinking to say that the government can't do anything right. And its the myth that motivates us to give money to the wealthiest 5% of the nation on the backs of the rest of us. Don't believe the hype!! These systems are all works-in-progress. Nothing man-made is perfect and it never will be. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it doesn't mean there's no value in them. Would you rather have insurance companies make decisions about your health? REALLY? These are the people who pay doctors to figure out sneaky ways to deny treatments for dying patients. The government is a much more neutral figure. Not to mention the outrageous amount of money that is spent on our current system that would be totally unnecessary in a single-payer system. All the money we are spending trying to get insurance companies to pay could instead be spent on our actual health. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Douglas Knapp <knappneedleman@ ...> wrote: > > heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? > > > No, it is not possible. > > The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from not wasting our money is to give them less. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Complexity leads to easy corruption and difficult discoverabilty, and it is an incredibly complex deal. I won't even mention anything about Chicago here. Folks game medicare for millions. Figure in many more people, including illegal people who are especially exposed to corruption by others who abuse their illegality. Then consider that it will not be removable, as entitlements never are. The good part? We will not work so hard or long because if we do, it just will go to the government to pay for this stuff. I hit the AMT last year and ended up working an extra month for taxes. All charitable giving was removed with everything else. Work less. Don't give to charity. Feels like europe. If you're not born rich, don't bother. Excuse my pessimism. Perhaps I'm getting older. DAve On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:10 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works > from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? > > No, it is not possible. > > The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability > to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar > hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from > not wasting our money is to give them less. > > Respectfully, > > Douglas Knapp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 Please everyone, as the list admin I have requested that this thread be shut down. I am asking again that it be stopped. Anyone continuing it will be put on suspension. On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 2:12 PM, David Molony<acuman1 wrote: > > > Complexity leads to easy corruption and difficult discoverabilty, and > it is an incredibly complex deal. I won't even mention anything about > Chicago here. > Folks game medicare for millions. Figure in many more people, > including illegal people who are especially exposed to corruption by > others who abuse their illegality. > Then consider that it will not be removable, as entitlements never are. > The good part? We will not work so hard or long because if we do, it > just will go to the government to pay for this stuff. I hit the AMT > last year and ended up working an extra month for taxes. All > charitable giving was removed with everything else. Work less. Don't > give to charity. Feels like europe. If you're not born rich, don't > bother. > Excuse my pessimism. Perhaps I'm getting older. > DAve > > On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:10 PM, Douglas Knapp wrote: > >> heylaurag wrote: Isn't it possible that we might take what works >> from the Europeans and IMPROVE in it? >> >> No, it is not possible. >> >> The skepticism is entirely founded on the governments past inability >> to run anything economically. They can't even buy a ten dollar >> hammer for under 200 bucks. The only way to keep the government from >> not wasting our money is to give them less. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Douglas Knapp > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2009 Report Share Posted July 23, 2009 You can easily say the same thing about single payor systems, with the difference being that one can't even buy one's way out. Neutral? I'm not particularly big on how the government has let lobbyists regulate our healthcare system as it is, to their benefit, but having the government have SOLE control can only be worse, as we shall see. I expect a single payor system to be snuck in over the next decade, but hope they will stall as long as possible so I can get my kids thru college first. I gave up on retiring anyway. All that said, Oriental Medicine is a nice place to be because I get to see (presently) my folks get well and get reasonable renumeration for it (again presently). David Molony On Jul 22, 2009, at 11:48 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Would you rather have insurance companies make decisions about your > health? REALLY? These are the people who pay doctors to figure out > sneaky ways to deny treatments for dying patients. The government is > a much more neutral figure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 guarantee you that we will be even more inefficient than any European government system in no time. >>>>>Well david right now European systems beat us in every health measurement. As usual the US lives in a vail of superiority that has nothing to d0 with reality. What we have is a system that will take money, from those that have it, and sell anyone technology and drugs regardless of medical need or evidence of medical efficacy. Its all ruled by corporation with profits ruling the game. We have plenty of NONE medical management of healthcare that deny care via HMOs and of the non-insured every day. Dr cant make decisions on care, but the right fear mangers/industry, which is in bed with corporations, try to make you think that is what coming. Please its been here for decades. In the media we see zero serious discussion of healthcare all we have is he said she said, as usual. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 Douglas Right now except for Kaiser, medicare and the vet systems are the most efficient in the country. The problem in not management cost but corporate control of the government that can make the system pay $1200 a month to rent a wheel chair that cost $450. Drugs that cost many times as much in the US there anywhere else. As long as all the information people get is from stupid propaganda we will never have a real discussion of the issues. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2009 Report Share Posted July 24, 2009 We already have two government run healthcare systems, medicare and medicade, they are inefficient, bureaucratically top heavy, rife with fraud, and are currently bankrupting social security. What makes you think that the government could do it better when they can't even fix what they have now? >>>>>>>>> This is just fantasy world. Medicare has lower management cost then privet insu industry. That that is despite complete corporate control of the US government. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 I'm ok with it if they sunset it. Maybe after all the " corporate greed " is over and government greed has had their turn, a new form can coalesce, but only if there is a sunset clause that gives a decade or less for a college try. The systemic euthanasia in europe/canada is not my cup of tea, but people may grow to like it enough to continue it. Choice for change is necessary, though, and while we are big on change as a slogan now, there should be incorporated in any changes the ability to provide for further change later. This has not been done before. My personal view is to have a national $10-20,000 deductible (prorated for actual inflation) be a part of a national system, with the deductible taken care of by employers or counties/states for the indigents. Most folks with jobs can deal with a $10,000 bill over a few years. In my discussions with house members on both sides, no one is interested. It is too simple and people will understand it, I guess. David Molony PS As far as this not being part and parcel of the group, this is an important discussion for our field, and it my view that as long as things don't get acrimonious, there is no need to censor. It is very easy to delete fro those who are not interested at all, but I suspect that most everyone is indeed interested. On Jul 23, 2009, at 7:39:11 PM, " alon marcus " <alonmarcus wrote: " alon marcus " <alonmarcus Re: Obama Health Care July 23, 2009 7:39:11 PM EDT Chinese Medicine guarantee you that we will be even more inefficient than any European government system in no time. >>>>>Well david right now European systems beat us in every health measurement. As usual the US lives in a vail of superiority that has nothing to d0 with reality. What we have is a system that will take money, from those that have it, and sell anyone technology and drugs regardless of medical need or evidence of medical efficacy. Its all ruled by corporation with profits ruling the game. We have plenty of NONE medical management of healthcare that deny care via HMOs and of the non-insured every day. Dr cant make decisions on care, but the right fear mangers/industry, which is in bed with corporations, try to make you think that is what coming. Please its been here for decades. In the media we see zero serious discussion of healthcare all we have is he said she said, as usual. 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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