Seeds and Ethics and Democracy and Justice and Jobs

February 1, 2005

Hi Butch

I've snipped as much as I could but one thing has always puzzled me. Why do

US elections generally have such a poor voter turnout given that democracy

is held in such high esteem?

> Both the Democratic and Republican Members of Congress are praising the

> elections.

>

> World leaders are praising the Iraqi vote. Associate Press reported

> (and I have shortened the report):

>

> The presidents of France and Russia, top opponents of U.S. policy in

> Iraq, joined world leaders Monday in praising this weekend's landmark

> Iraqi elections as a success of democracy over terrorism.

>

> French President Jacques Chirac spoke with President Bush by telephone,

> saying he was satisfied by the " participation rate and the good

> technical organization. "

Most reports seem to agree that the voter turnout in the recent Iraqi

elections is pretty phenomenal - I think I saw a figure of 57% quoted.

Particularly for a place where people have to risk life and limb to do so.

The recent US elections, if the figures are correct, only managed 60% voter

turnout and this is in a country where people do not have to risk their

lives to vote. And that is a record turnout in recent years.

I just did a search on voter turnout over the years and I was pretty

surprised at the following figures:

2000 - 51.3%

1996 - 49%

1992 - 55.2%

Most hover in the low 50's until you go as far back as the 1960's and I

suppose some of that higher turnout may be attributed to Vietnam.

I looked at a couple of websites in the hope that any inaccuracies might be

obvious.

These are the ones I checked

<http://www.fairvote.org/turnout/preturn.htm>

<http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html>

The second site also had figures for 2002, 1998, 1994 etc and since they

aren't national election years I'm not sure why they were included unless

they were elections for senators or something similar. But the results for

those years were even lower - high 30's until you go back to 1970.

So I'm just being very curious about why in general the US population tends

to avoid voting in large numbers, given that the present administration has

made such a big deal about it being so vital that Iraqis vote in their own

elections.

I had some contact with some people who worked on voting day in November and

they advised that in some places there were still people queued until 2am

waiting to cast their vote and this seems to suggest that there is a lack of

facilities for the 60% of people who did vote. Doesn't seem like much

encouragement to vote is the only way I can see it.

Vicki

February 1, 2005

Hi Jessica .. Sharon .. other good folks,

> Hi! I'm new to the group.

Welcome to the best Newsgroup on the I-Net. :-P

> My name is Jessica and I'm an Aromatologist in Ontario, Canada.

Aromatology .. Aromatherapy with more emphasis on the the chemistry and

pharmacology of essential oils .. good show.

> I couldn't resist responding to this post because I am extremely against

> Monsanto's policies worldwide.

I think most folks are. I'm a founding member of the Black Sea Economic

Cooperation Agribusiness Group .. a nonprofit that encourages technology

transfer to the countries of that region. In that position I have dealt

with a number of large multi-national, mega-buck agribusiness outfits ..

and I was rarely impressed by them.

> You name the country, and they are doing something heinous there. It

> is criminal but when governments and corporations are buddies, human

> rights, animal rights and environmental rights are non-existent.

Not really criminal as a matter of policy .. but true it is in some

individual cases. There is no way to separate governments and big

business. The interaction is too deep and too intricate .. that's the

way it is in a democracy. In some places .. like Japan .. we find that

big business leaders are often the back bone of the government.

True it is that animal and environmental rights are not going to get the

attention everybody thinks they should .. but there is no single issue

that'll get agreement across the board as to the importance that should

be given to it versus something else. Elected officials are like us ..

they have opinions and they have butts .. as we do.

Human rights .. I won't touch that one except to say that I think we

have too many in some areas and not enough in others.

> They just get in the way of profit.

Could be .. its an emotional issue for sure. But profit is not a dirty

word in a capitalist society .. nor is the word " jobs " . As for the bad

call of a particular judge mentioned on this list .. that's not always

the way it turns out. There have been a number of cases of that sort

here in Turkey that have been decided for the little guy .. one was

brought by a buddy of mine .. lawyer Hakan Cinar .. against a mega-buck

cotton seed company. He defended a farmer .. and won.

Justice is not always served in a court room. It is a matter of two

gladiators sparring and the one that is the most practiced normally wins

the bout .. as was the case with O. J. Simpson .. now lets see how it

turns out with Weirdo Michael the Freak Jackson .. these are the type

cases that catch my attention as they have more to do with human rights

than some people might pay attention to.

> The only thing that we can do is stop supporting these corporations as

> much as possible by purchasing from ethical companies. Ethical practises

> need to be demanded by the consumer. Jessica

Hard to avoid them sometimes because we don't know who they are .. hard

to decide who did what when you're buying chow at the grocery store.

I'll say one thing about the seeds issue too .. and then let it slide

for now because this is far more DEEP than we can discuss on this list.

There are negative and positive points that have not been brought up ..

and there are some global food issues that are not going to be solved by

organic farming .. or avoidance of those nasty manipulated seeds. I

have a friend even now chasing this tale about Iraq and Seeds down in

the USDA .. in Washington .. I mean face to face questions .. not an

e-mail. I'll tell y'all what I learn.

And Sharon .. your comment ..

> Nobody is going to convince me that all is well in Iraq and they

> love us. Sharon

I don't think anyone is trying to tell anyone that ALL is well in Iraq

and I dang sure know nobody is insinuating that those cats love us. Nor

are the going to like us more or less because of the seed issue. ;-)

Some love us and some hate us and it will always be that way .. if you

want to know more about that then you have to learn more about Arabs ..

and about Islam .. I have spent many years working with Arabs and maybe

28 years working in Moslem/Islamic countries .. 26 of those years was

LIVING in a Moslem country .. Turkey .. where I am now. It is Moslem ..

but its not Islamic .. there is a difference.

If your comment was just about seeds .. then perhaps we focused too much

on the wrong thing and allowed emotions to get in the way of logic -

like we might do if we concentrate on a tree and miss the sight of a

beautiful forest.

All is not well in Iraq .. hasn't been well in Iraq since I have been

alive. But all was not well in the United States for THIRTY-SIX years

after we won our independence from England in 1776 .. the British did

not leave the Continent then .. they had outposts all over the place ..

we had to fight them again in 1812. So maybe we need to give Iraqis ..

folks who have not known freedom and democracy in their entire lives ..

a couple of more years to get their act together.

One thing is for sure .. they stuck their necks out to go to the polls.

Those who were not asleep could not have missed all the ruckus on all

the TV channels all day and all night yesterday. Even the Bush Bashing

channels had to reluctantly concede that things were going well.

Both the Democratic and Republican Members of Congress are praising the

elections.

World leaders are praising the Iraqi vote. Associate Press reported

(and I have shortened the report):

The presidents of France and Russia, top opponents of U.S. policy in

Iraq, joined world leaders Monday in praising this weekend's landmark

Iraqi elections as a success of democracy over terrorism.

French President Jacques Chirac spoke with President Bush by telephone,

saying he was satisfied by the " participation rate and the good

technical organization. "

" These elections mark an important step in the political reconstruction

of Iraq. " Chirac said, according to a French presidential spokesman.

Russian President Vladimir Putin also praised the elections, calling

them " a step in the right direction and a positive event, " according to

the ITAR-Tass news agency.

" The conditions for holding the elections were quite difficult, to put

it mildly, " Putin said. " At the same time, I must say that the very

fact of it is an important event, maybe a historic event, for the Iraqi

people because it is undoubtedly a step toward democratization of the

country. "

Putin's comments were a far cry from his harsh warning in December that

the elections could not be fair amid a continuing U.S.-led occupation.

Iranian government spokesman Abdollah Ramezanzadeh said the elections

were " held freely " but under " difficult circumstances. "

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the successful election was a

psychological blow to insurgents because it demonstrated that Iraqis

were committed to democracy.

" Yesterday's elections represent a real blow to this disgusting campaign

of violence and intimidation, " said Straw, who also recognized Iraqi

security forces for helping police the election.

Straw said Britain would call for an early meeting of the Sharm-el-Sheik

group of Iraq's neighbors and the G-8 industrialized countries to build

international support for the new national assembly.

In Brussels, Belgium, the European Union's foreign policy chief said

Iraq's move toward democracy would pay off in the provision of more aid.

" They are going to find the support of the European Union, no doubt

about that, in order to see this process move on in the right

direction, " Javier Solana told The Associated Press.

Areas where the EU was looking to help include drafting a new

constitution and training the judiciary and security forces, he said.

(My note .. I do NOT see this as a positive step and hope it does not

happen .. I would not like to see this new government formed on a basis

similar to that of the Non Democratic European Parliament .. nor would I

like to see it function as a Social Democrat government. Having the EU

step in now is sorta like the animals in the barnyard wanting to help

Henny Penny eat the bread after they refused to help her make it.)

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said the election could

lead to the alliance stepping up training efforts for the Iraqi military.

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer praised Iraqis " for the will

they have shown to shape the future of their country peacefully and

democratically, despite massive intimidation. "

New Zealand's Foreign Minister Phil Goff echoed that view.

Turnout among Iraq's estimated 14 million eligible voters will take some

time to determine, Iraqi election officials have said, but Iraqi and

U.S. officials said they believe it was higher than the 57 percent

predicted.

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi expressed hope the elections would

help spread democracy in Arab countries.

" Iraq will become influential, a factor of change and democracy for all

the other countries " in the region, he said on state radio. " This vote

can have a positive knock-on effect in all the other Arab countries

where there is authoritarian rule, where the situation of women is not

one of liberty or dignity, where there are still many steps to make to

emerge from the Middle Ages. "

Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, said it was

encouraged by Sunday's turnout among Iraqis, which the Foreign Ministry

said showed " commendable determination to decide their own destiny. "

In neighboring Malaysia, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, who

chairs the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference, said he was

" very sad " about a series of attacks that marred Sunday's voting. At

least 44 people died in suicide and mortar attacks on polling stations,

including nine suicide bombers. END OF THE ARTICLE.

Finally .. I watched an interview today with King Abdullah of Jordan.

He is undoubtedly the most enlightened leader in the Arab world .. as

was his father .. King Hussein. King Abdullah, when asked if this

election would cause those Arab leaders who were not into Democracy to

shake in their boots, replied that it was not likely they would go that

far but they were concerned and recognized the need to change and had

already begun discussion in that regard. He said that since last year

when President Bush tried to push Democracy in the Arab world (which was

rejected outright simply because they didn't like to hear it from the

USA) the people have begun to have hope .. Democracy is a main topic of

discussion in the coffee houses now and Arab leaders are aware of this.

He said that Bush has opened doors that no Arab leader will be able to

close. He said a lot more but I'll spare you all the details .. bottom

line .. he sees major changes coming in the Mid East .. that's good.

I've worked a fair amount of terrorism during my career and I know we'll

have terrorists until the world ends .. as we have had since man learned

to walk on two legs .. but its more difficult to recruit terrorists when

folks have a job, enough money to live, and freedom to make choices. It

is not hard to see where the majority of the international terrorist

groups originate .. countries that do not practice democracy and do not

have freedom and human rights. That's not just the opinion of Butch

Owen and its not an opinion I'm willing to debate on this list. ;-)

Y'all keep smiling . :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

February 2, 2005

Butch wrote:

<I have a friend even now chasing this tale about Iraq and Seeds down in the

USDA .. in Washington .. I mean face to face questions .. not an

e-mail. I'll tell y'all what I learn.>

I look forward to that!

I have NOT passed this on to all and sundry yet,

because I am hoping it will turn out to be a false

rumour. Instead I passed it on to Snopes, the

urban legend people.

If it is true that will give it more publicity.

Ien in the Kootenays

*******************************

Stop. Breathe. Smile!

~Padma ( my TV yoga teacher)

See my smiling face:

http://www.greatestnetworker.com/is/ien

*******************************

-

Butch Owen

Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:48 AM