Guest guest Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 How about the recognition that Jeanne Rose *introduced* the term to aromatherapy? That may be a good interpretation of what happened. I also stretch the interpretation of hydrosols beyond what is traditionally held. Some say it is only produced as the byproduct of the distillation process when the process is used to produce essential oil. There are people nowadays distilling aromatics just to get the hydrosol, knowing that the EO will be minimal (eg lemon balm.) http://naturalperfumery.com The premier site on the Web to discover the beauty of Natural Perfume " The Age of the Foodie is passé. It is now the Age of the Scentie. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 On Behalf Of rastapoodle Monday, September 26, 2005 9:30 AM Re: Hydrosols ** Origin of the Term How about the recognition that Jeanne Rose *introduced* the term to aromatherapy? That may be a good interpretation of what happened. I also stretch the interpretation of hydrosols beyond what is traditionally held. Some say it is only produced as the byproduct of the distillation process when the process is used to produce essential oil. There are people nowadays distilling aromatics just to get the hydrosol, knowing that the EO will be minimal (eg lemon balm.) Absolutely Anya, and that was the point I was trying to make. To support this opinion: On page 6 of Suzanne Catty's book, under " Influences " , she begins, " In 1995, I received a pamphlet from the Aromatic Plant Project titled 101 Ways to use Hydrosols " . Christoph Streicher, in an early article in Scensitivity, comments . . . " Hydrolates, or as Jeanne Rose calls them, 'hydrosols' . . . This is supporting evidence that she coined the phrase to mean aromatic waters produced by steam distillation of aromatic plants . . . in the emerging industry of aromatherapy. Until someone comes up with contradicting evidence, let her have her due. I don't understand Butch's tenacity to refute this. Jeanne Rose is not claiming to have invented the term hydrosol as used in engineering or elsewhere, as Butch would have you believe. It is misleading to argue with the weak analogies and points he attempts. Now, for those of you who don't know who Jeanne Rose is, there was at least one person in attendance this weekend from this list and one from Anya's (both delightful people I was delighted to get to know.) Perhaps they will comment regarding the class. I don't expect glowing reviews and neither does Jeanne. Critical, objective analyses only helps to improve content and process for any instructor. And, if you are not aware, you can obtain (for free) at least 80 of Jeanne's some 1,000 plus articles at http://www.aromaticplantproject.com/articles_news.html and http://www.jeannerose.net/articles.html You can also find more about her work developing aromatic plant production in California/Oregon/Washington at http://www.aromaticplantproject.com/ Let me share some of the information she provides for a 'perfumery' class, information that some of you here may want to add to your journals or however you store information. She doesn't just have you sit around and mix pretty scents, believe me. The following is copyrighted Jeanne Rose, and contained within the short section in the Natural Perfume Workbook called Botany/Chemistry of Essential Oils: " HOW PLANTS STORE ESSENTIAL OILS: Aromatic substances are formed and stored in certain organs of a plant as by-products or indeed the end-result of its metabolism. Glandular cells, glandular hairs, and glandular scales: These are single or multi-cell protuberances, or 'pockets' on the surface of the plant's epidermis. Examples of plants storing essential oils in this (sic) manner include: Thyme, marjoram, Rosemary and Sage. These examples are all from the family Lamiaceae (Labiates). Oil Cells and Resin Cells: These are cells, still living in some cases, which are filled with oil or resin; in plants of the Laurel Family (Lauraceae); Laurel leaves, Cinnamon, Cassia. Oil or Resin Canals: These occur in inter-cellular spaces in plant tissue that store essentil oils and resins. When adjoining glandular cells move apart, the spaces expand into tubular ducts. Canals or ducts formed this way are found in the schizocarp fruits of the Apiaceae (Umbellifers): Caraway, Anise, Fennel, Coriander and Celery. Conifers, too, have their resin canals and they exude large quantities of resin. The resin can exude from a damaged tree. Some resins are gathered by the method of 'tapping'. Oil Reservoirs: Lysigenous secretory reservoirs are formed inside a plant as the walls of secretory cells gradually disintegrate. This is called secondary cavity formation. Particularly noted for their lysigenous cavities or oil reservoirs are the Rue Family (Rutaceae): Citrus varieties include Lemon, Orange, Bergamot. " This is but a small snippet from the 115 page workbook, and, of course, all of the information cannot possibly be gone over in person as you take this 14-16 hour training, especially since you also continually develop your odor vocabulary and personally make 3 or 4 perfume products. This, I believe, shows her generosity and spirit as an educator. I post it here for your edification and to point out that Jeanne Rose has been marginalized by aroma-political snobbery and those who ineptly snipe to elevate their own positions on the internet. The lesson for all here is to research for yourself and make up your own mind about any educator or purveyor of essential oils and related products that support herbalism and aromatherapy. Many are not on the internet and do not wish to be. Be well, Marcia Elston, Samara Botane, http://www.wingedseed.com/katrina.htm " First of all, cultivate a contented spirit; a garden is a good place to begin. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 _____ On Behalf Of Butch Owen Monday, September 26, 2005 1:23 PM Hydrosols ** Origin of the Term Hi Marcia .. other good folks .. Marcia .. you are being difficult .. as usual. I was not challenging anyone .. I called it as it was. A statement was made and I responded. If it was a challenge then someone should have accepted it back on 9 December 2003 when the original post was made. ......I am not being difficult, I am contradicting you. I don't remember seeing in the rules of this list that one has to reply immediately. As for whether Suzanna Catty felt a need to challenge Jeanne Rose .. that matters not to me. Catty's book is one we should not get into discussion about here .. but if you want to .. I'll critique the first 30 pages of so .. and it will not be a challenge .. it will be telling it as it is. When folks publish they are open to critique. ....... Absolutely, just as they are open to critique on a discussion group. > Here is the complete and original quote from J. Rose . . . " Hydro means > water and 'sol' means solution. Thus, the word hydrosol means the watery > solution of distillation that contains both water-soluble plant components > and micro-drops of essential oil . . . the " hydrosol " . She was talking > about our industry and aromatic plant distillation. She knew the word was > used in other instances. Of course she does. If you can find use of the > word to define what we in aromatherapy now call hydrosols earlier than when > she termed it in her paper written in 1989 or 1990, she would no doubt > quickly agree someone else came up with the term, but that person was > unknown to her at the time. Whatever .. and I don't know if her web site now reflects the same information that was there in December 2003. Nor do I care. ......Do I hear that you don't care to establish the truth? I approved this post Marcia .. just now I allowed it to hit the list. And there has never been a time that you could not find a springboard with which to express your political views. ;-) .. . . I responded to your political comment; I didn't initiate political discussion. No politics .. remember. ;-) .. . . I see you forget occasionally, yourself :-) . . . >> >> " Hydrosol n. { Hydro + Sol (ution) } a colloidal dispersion in which >>water is the dispersing medium .......... UNQUOTE I rest my case. .. . . Give it up, Butch. No one disputes the dictionary. > Well, well . . . doesn't this look similar to what Ms. Rose said? Again, to > 'coin' a phrase in the context where it didn't exist before isn't analogous > with " invention' of the term, especially one that is well known in another > context. She uses the word to define something that had perhaps not > previously been called such in the context of aromatic plant distillation, > but is a true and correct term. >> >>I think it is fair to say that she has made a mistake .. at least. And .. the above is as far as I will go on softening my words. .. . . . Is it not possible that you, like all of us, are capable of making a mistake? With all the explanations that have come forth, could this be gray, not black and white? >>>Interesting to finally meet her in person, to say the least. Not >>>exactly what I was expecting. I enjoyed the workshop and I AM >>>learning, but she's not the easiest instructor I've ever had . >> >>I've heard that said .. maybe in different words .. but I understand. > > Which means that your opinion here is only gossip . . . " you've heard " . . .. I stated that I had HEARD .. call it as you will. I have not met Gary Young either but I (and you) have often reported information on him. Well, I have, and his second wife, his brother and several of his employees. All of what I said about him I researched carefully. > you have no valid opinion that derives from first-hand research, study or > observation. Therefore, your opinion here isn't worth much, is it.? My opinions haven't been worth much to you since I began to post on Idma back in 1995 .. and I can assure you that the opinion is mutual. That is not true, Butch, I contemplate your statements along with everyone else's. I've often agreed with you and vocalized (err, fingerized) this. I don't see that the statement made by Georgene, QUOTE: " *** she's not the easiest instructor I've ever had " UNQUOTE .. is a negative statement. I've seen the same written about Martin .. and during my other career youngsters often commented that I was " hard as nails .. but fair. " I did not see that as being negative. But .. I do see that you are very sensitive about this .. and there has been a lot of band width wasted in your effort to defend something that I think is a waste of time .. and was not defensible. I was protective. It was innuendo, supported by your " me, too " that prompted my reaction. The original statement by Jeanne Rose, in the context meant, is defensible. Marcia .. if you don't like Chris Ziegler's list you know how to .. and I can assure you that this list will never die the death Idma did .. nor for the same reasons. I still have most of the old Idma posts .. Idma died because it became a battle ground .. and you were in the forefront of most of the battles. Do not wait for an apology from me .. I do not apologize for telling the truth when I reply to a post .. and certainly not almost two years after the fact. You were on the same side as I in most of that battle, as I recall, Butch. I know you are not capable of apologizing. And, I know that I can leave at will and the list can ban me if it chooses. I never intimated that I didn't like this list. You use that comment as intimidation, it appears. Butch, what I say that contradicts what you say does not go to these extremes, " liking the list " , " waste of time " , etc. Asking me to leave the room because you don't like what I say is perhaps sensitive, as well? Let's set this one aside. Points are made and Anya sums up the heart of this thread. Be well, (and I mean it) Marcia Elston, Samara Botane, http://www.wingedseed.com/katrina.htm " First of all, cultivate a contented spirit; a garden is a good place to begin. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2005 Report Share Posted September 26, 2005 Hi Marcia .. other good folks .. Georgene wrote: >>>I'm currently taking Jeanne Rose's aromatherapy correspondence course >>>and just recently attended her " Vocabulary of Scent " weekend >>>intensive. She does, indeed, claim to have " invented " the term >>>hydrosol. Came from her own two lips. >> >>Well .. what can I say? I recall back in 9th grade Literature class >>one of my friends, Roy Arms, recited a poem he had written .. and some >>of the students giggled .. though I was not that interested in American >>literature at the time to know why they giggled. But Roy started out by >>reading .. " I think that I shall never see, a poem lovely as a tree. " >>Later, I found out that Kilmer had beat him to it .. but Roy will go to >>his grave claiming it came to his mind as he was writing. > > Hmmmm, have you seen Roy since 9th grade, Butch? He still claims this, > some 50 years later, whatever the time span may be? Interesting. Saw him a few times .. but the matter didn't seem important enough to discuss. > Since I was busy getting ready for our event this weekend featuring the > person in discussion's Advanced Perfumery workshop here in Snohomish, I > am a bit late in responding. However, I have been a long time friend and > associate of Jeanne Rose and I know her quite well. I also highly respect > her work in our field; her knowledge of herbalism, aromatic plants and > aromatherapy could possibly bury that of any of us here. The analogy above > is hardly applicable. The analogy above was quite applicable back them .. a person made a claim on a web site .. a claim that was not correct. > You are intimating outright plagiarism, which is not a fair comparison. I wasn't insinuating anything .. I was very clear in my comments that Jeanne Rose did not invent the term .. as it stated on her web site .. and I was providing a direct reply to a direct statement. The fact that someone is a friend and one admires them is not (methinks) cause to try to blame others for that friend's mistake .. I called it as I saw it and I take back none of the words I wrote. They were .. are .. true. I have no blind loyalty .. that is dangerous. > First of all, the word " originated " is not analogous with " invented " . Whatever. > I will give you that Georgene made this erroneous statement first, but > you certainly jumped on it with both boots, didn't you? Dang betcha I did. And I don't have any personal feelings one way or the other about Jeanne Rose .. I just told it as it was. > Jeanne Rose prefaces her statement with, " As far as I know, I 'originated' > the term in our industry. " in all situations where I have heard this claim 'from her > very lips'. She doesn't write all the material on the APP site, so some of > her original statement could be missing. I have scientific perfumery and > cosmetic books dating back to 1915, 1922 up to 1945, 1951 in which the > waters left over from aromatic plant extraction to make essential oils were > never referred to as hydrosols. They were " flower waters " or " Aqua Napthae > Triplex " (Orange Flower Water), " Rosewater " . . . books in which the authors > said . . . " that the waters distilled over with the essential oils contain > a small quantity of the latter in solution, and hence have a very agreeable > odor " , but never identified them as hydrosols. It is a well known fact that > " Rosewater " was obtained and used in antiquity, but never called a hydrosol > . . . until??? Suzanne Catty specifies in her book that she became > interested in " hydrosols " in the early '90's. She acknowledges that the > chemistry term (hydrosol) does not refer specifically to a distillate and > can be applied to any aqueous solution. Much as Jeanne Rose would agree, I > am sure. Hydrosols (as we know them now in our industry), are also called > hydrolates, hydrolats, floral waters, distillates, and plant waters. I am not going to banter on the credibility of the statements that appeared on Jeanne Rose's web site when this post was made .. but I will say that calling Hydrosols or Hydrolats " floral waters " is a way for the con artists to pass off waters that are not a result of distillation. > Suzanne Catty expands with the suggestion for a definition for aromatherapy > purposes: " Hydrosols are the condensate water coproduced during the steam- > or hydro-distillation of plant material for aromatherapeutic purposes. " I > believe that this is akin to the definition of the word that Jeanne Rose > perhaps originated. Ms. Catty, the most recent researcher/author on the > subject of hydrosols, does not challenge Ms. Rose, and most probably both of > them could care less about this ridiculous challenge. Marcia .. you are being difficult .. as usual. I was not challenging anyone .. I called it as it was. A statement was made and I responded. If it was a challenge then someone should have accepted it back on 9 December 2003 when the original post was made. As for whether Suzanna Catty felt a need to challenge Jeanne Rose .. that matters not to me. Catty's book is one we should not get into discussion about here .. but if you want to .. I'll critique the first 30 pages of so .. and it will not be a challenge .. it will be telling it as it is. When folks publish they are open to critique. > Here is the complete and original quote from J. Rose . . . " Hydro means > water and 'sol' means solution. Thus, the word hydrosol means the watery > solution of distillation that contains both water-soluble plant components > and micro-drops of essential oil . . . the " hydrosol " . She was talking > about our industry and aromatic plant distillation. She knew the word was > used in other instances. Of course she does. If you can find use of the > word to define what we in aromatherapy now call hydrosols earlier than when > she termed it in her paper written in 1989 or 1990, she would no doubt > quickly agree someone else came up with the term, but that person was > unknown to her at the time. Whatever .. and I don't know if her web site now reflects the same information that was there in December 2003. Nor do I care. >>And I also recall a certain unsuccessful presidential candidate who >>claimed to have invented the Internet. So who am I to question? > > I know that Chris doesn't want " politics " on the list. Politics pervades > everything; it is integral to all we do. IMO, to limit political discussion > is to limit complete life, but Chris and the other listmasters are the > masters at the table here. She should allow this response, however, if she > considers herself a fair person because she has allowed you the above > freedom and should fairly allow a countering viewpoint. What you are > touting, Butch, is Republican " talking points " (actually many of us call > them lies), which are a construction of the Right Wing " Noise " Machine, with > no apparent qualms about lying to win arguments, cover up and distort truth. > We hear/see them repeated ad nauseum on mainstream media, especially FOX > News, which is owned by heavy supporters of this failed administration. > What does this have to do with this discussion? Nada. It appears that you > use it as an opportunity to twist the conversation to make an ugly point and > demean someone you don't know much about. Al Gore or Jeanne Rose. Al Gore > has done much to protect the environment (which aught to mean something to > folks in our industry) while GW has done his best to destroy it. This is > fact. Al Gore never claimed to have " invented " the internet, just as Jeanne > Rose has never claimed to " invent " the word hydrosol. Further, there are > facts that counter whether Gore was unsuccessful, recently elaborated by > former President Jimmy Carter in a speech at an American University panel in > Washington recently. He told the crowd that he was certain that Al Gore won > the 2000 presidential election; that there was " no doubt " in his mind and > that the 2000 election process " failed abysmally. " He also stated > (correctly by law) that the Supreme Court should have never gotten involved > and that it was " highly partisan " . I, for one, would be more inclined to > believe the veracity of the facts that back up this statement by a former > President of the United States than your opinion in this regard, Butch. I approved this post Marcia .. just now I allowed it to hit the list. And there has never been a time that you could not find a springboard with which to express your political views. ;-) >>This company claims to have been around since 1946 .. name is Hydrosol >>http://www.hydrosol.com/profile.htm > > And, what does this company have to do with plant aromatics? They produce > aerosol containers and such. You appear to confuse the specific reference > and discussion with what appears to be " spin " , somewhat cleverly just like > the Republican " Noise " Machine. No politics .. remember. ;-) >>And here .. from the Atmospheric Chemistry Glossary we find Hydrosol >>http://www.webref.org/chemistry/h/hydrosol.htm >> >>And I won't mention all the derivatives of Hydro .. but a couple that >>come to mind immediately are hydrophilic and hydrolysis .. >> >>BUT .. I will mention a very important reference book I keep beside me. >>Its important because I find things Americans say don't exist in this >>reference .. all the time. Its my handy dandy, guaranteed to not rust, >>bust or collect dust Second College Edition of Websters New World >>Dictionary of the American Language, Edition 1972. On page 688 of this >>dictionary it states: >> >> " Hydrosol n. { Hydro + Sol (ution) } a colloidal dispersion in which >>water is the dispersing medium .......... UNQUOTE I rest my case. > Well, well . . . doesn't this look similar to what Ms. Rose said? Again, to > 'coin' a phrase in the context where it didn't exist before isn't analogous > with " invention' of the term, especially one that is well known in another > context. She uses the word to define something that had perhaps not > previously been called such in the context of aromatic plant distillation, > but is a true and correct term. But .. the dictionary I quote is from 1972 .. the original statement on Jeanne Rose's site claimed she coined (whatever) the term in 1990. >>And since the honorable Ms. Rose insists that she invented(?) the term >>in 1990 .. http://www.aromaticplantproject.com/introduction.html >> >>I think it is fair to say that she has made a mistake .. at least. And .. the above is as far as I will go on softening my words. > You haven't proven that a mistake has been made . . . . Doesn't mean you > can't (with the appropriate research) perhaps someone did coin the word > applicable to aromatherapy before she did . . . and doesn't mean she > wouldn't be the first to admit that someone else went there first if they > did. Not her style to lie or claim something she doesn't own . . . or to > plagiarize. . . in fact, many, many people have plagiarized her work over > the years. When I say she made a mistake .. it is not claiming that she lied or that she is trying to deceive or that she would not later .. or now .. correct that mistake. >>>Interesting to finally meet her in person, to say the least. Not >>>exactly what I was expecting. I enjoyed the workshop and I AM >>>learning, but she's not the easiest instructor I've ever had . >> >>I've heard that said .. maybe in different words .. but I understand. > > Which means that your opinion here is only gossip . . . " you've heard " . . . I stated that I had HEARD .. call it as you will. I have not met Gary Young either but I (and you) have often reported information on him. > you have no valid opinion that derives from first-hand research, study or > observation. Therefore, your opinion here isn't worth much, is it.? My opinions haven't been worth much to you since I began to post on Idma back in 1995 .. and I can assure you that the opinion is mutual. > Anyone who has studied with Jeanne Rose knows that she is a taskmaster; she > expects much of her students. She doesn't coddle them. We need more > teachers like her. She will push you to accomplishment. She also gets > cranky sometimes. Big deal. You aught to know what that is, Butch. I don't see that the statement made by Georgene, QUOTE: " *** she's not the easiest instructor I've ever had " UNQUOTE .. is a negative statement. I've seen the same written about Martin .. and during my other career youngsters often commented that I was " hard as nails .. but fair. " I did not see that as being negative. But .. I do see that you are very sensitive about this .. and there has been a lot of band width wasted in your effort to defend something that I think is a waste of time .. and was not defensible. >>>Georgene > > Regards and y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com > > Nothing you said here made me smile, Butch. Quite the opposite. Looks > somewhat like frivolous and petty pomposity meant to degrade a fine scholar > and author. Take your pick, Al Gore or Jeanne Rose. And, it makes Chris' > list look a lot like what folks think of Idma these days, . . . don't know > how you feel about apologies, but I feel that you owe at least one. Ms. > Rose's email address is in the cc: don't know Al Gore's. Marcia .. if you don't like Chris Ziegler's list you know how to .. and I can assure you that this list will never die the death Idma did .. nor for the same reasons. I still have most of the old Idma posts .. Idma died because it became a battle ground .. and you were in the forefront of most of the battles. Do not wait for an apology from me .. I do not apologize for telling the truth when I reply to a post .. and certainly not almost two years after the fact. > Be well, I will be .. wishing you the same good fortune. > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane, http://www.wingedseed.com/katrina.htm Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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