Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Fiamma NCCAOM is an ENTRY LEVEL TEST which the majority of states use. Though, foor additional $$$ etc..........the NCCAOM ALSO offers a CERTIFICATION in various modalities such as acupuncture, herbs, both, etc. Too many practitioners think that the NCCAOM TEST is some sort of national license. It's NOT and NEITHER is the Board Certification(s). In the majority of states..... which utilize NCCAOM.......as entry level test....it is NOT necessary to pay NCCAOM for any further board certification.........whereas in about 15 states it is REQUIRED that a licensee has and continues to pay and update the Board Certification. Some believe that this appears monopolistic and maybe unconstitutional even though its in the state's laws. State law(s) are not always constitutional....... which cannot be determined until challenged in court. Richard In a message dated 10/08/09 11:19:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 I am writing a letter for a patient that she plans to use for supporting acupuncture as " medical necessary " as deemed by her insurance company. My treatment protocol would involve acupuncture, herbs, and dietary changes. However, I am planning on just sticking with acupuncture (pun intended!) in my letter, because I feel uncomfortable with officially acknowledging these other modalities, considering the various scope of practice issues. I am in NJ, where my acupuncture license is pretty much limited to acupuncture (and definitely doesn't cover herbs). I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. Thanks- Fiamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Fiamma, I believe you are correct but am unsure what a national license is, as all healthcare is regulated on a state by state level through the legislatures. The NCCAOM exam is a professional certification and not a license. In many states this exam is used instead of a state exam, for many reasons such as cost for exam admin, etc. National recognition is separate from state licensing. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc alumni CC: Chinese Medicine fiammasita Thu, 8 Oct 2009 11:17:33 -0400 legal question/scope of practice I am writing a letter for a patient that she plans to use for supporting acupuncture as " medical necessary " as deemed by her insurance company. My treatment protocol would involve acupuncture, herbs, and dietary changes. However, I am planning on just sticking with acupuncture (pun intended!) in my letter, because I feel uncomfortable with officially acknowledging these other modalities, considering the various scope of practice issues. I am in NJ, where my acupuncture license is pretty much limited to acupuncture (and definitely doesn't cover herbs). I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. Thanks- Fiamma _______________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Michael As to national licensing.....that's what I already stated...there is no such thing. But as to Certification (board or otherwise) here we go again about semantics or possibly misinformation. What is a " certification " ? Why would a national testing agency need to CERTIFY anything other than the original taking/passing of the national exam? Why would any practitioner NEED or WANT a certification other than a verification of their passing said exam? All an applicant for a state license ever has to do is PAY NCCAOM a fee to document their passing of the NCCAOM exam. I just looked at their website and here are the results. _http://www.nccaom.org/applicants/certifications.html_ (http://www.nccaom.org/applicants/certifications.html) Application for Original Certification _http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/HB2009v1_App_only.pdf_ (http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/HB2009v1_App_only.pdf) Application for Recertification _http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/2009_Recert_App_only.pdf_ (http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/2009_Recert_App_only.pdf) And I haven't even bothered to double check those 15 states which REQUIRE a Diplomate Recertification by NCCAOM ion order to renew the state license. Richard In a message dated 10/8/2009 5:24:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: The issue of board certification or national licensing is not applicable to our profession. The NCCAOM offers us neither of these and, in fact, they dropped the whole idea of board certification from their website awhile back. You see, basic licensing requirements are not board certification or some specialty designation. There are no national healthcare licenses as this concept does not exist. Each and every state regulates its own healthcare professionals. Hope this helps. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:05:53 -0400 Re: TCM - legal question/scope of practice Fiamma NCCAOM is an ENTRY LEVEL TEST which the majority of states use. Though, foor additional $$$ etc..........the NCCAOM ALSO offers a CERTIFICATION in various modalities such as acupuncture, herbs, both, etc. Too many practitioners think that the NCCAOM TEST is some sort of national license. It's NOT and NEITHER is the Board Certification(s). In the majority of states..... which utilize NCCAOM.......as entry level test....it is NOT necessary to pay NCCAOM for any further board certification.........whereas in about 15 states it is REQUIRED that a licensee has and continues to pay and update the Board Certification. Some believe that this appears monopolistic and maybe unconstitutional even though its in the state's laws. State law(s) are not always constitutional....... which cannot be determined until challenged in court. Richard In a message dated 10/08/09 11:19:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Apologies for being off slightly. It NOW appears from the NCCAOM map that 23 states REQUIRE a continuous RE-CERTIFICATION via NCCAOM in order to renew those state licenses BESIDES or in ADDITION to their own Continuing Education Hour requirements. _http://www.nccaom.org/diplomates/state_news/States_Using_Cert_or_Exams_4-22 -09.pdf_ (http://www.nccaom.org/diplomates/state_news/States_Using_Cert_or_Exams_4-22-09.\ pdf) In a message dated 10/8/2009 5:24:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: The issue of board certification or national licensing is not applicable to our profession. The NCCAOM offers us neither of these and, in fact, they dropped the whole idea of board certification from their website awhile back. You see, basic licensing requirements are not board certification or some specialty designation. There are no national healthcare licenses as this concept does not exist. Each and every state regulates its own healthcare professionals. Hope this helps. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:05:53 -0400 Re: TCM - legal question/scope of practice Fiamma NCCAOM is an ENTRY LEVEL TEST which the majority of states use. Though, foor additional $$$ etc..........the NCCAOM ALSO offers a CERTIFICATION in various modalities such as acupuncture, herbs, both, etc. Too many practitioners think that the NCCAOM TEST is some sort of national license. It's NOT and NEITHER is the Board Certification(s). In the majority of states..... which utilize NCCAOM.......as entry level test....it is NOT necessary to pay NCCAOM for any further board certification.........whereas in about 15 states it is REQUIRED that a licensee has and continues to pay and update the Board Certification. Some believe that this appears monopolistic and maybe unconstitutional even though its in the state's laws. State law(s) are not always constitutional....... which cannot be determined until challenged in court. Richard In a message dated 10/08/09 11:19:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _______________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 The issue of board certification or national licensing is not applicable to our profession. The NCCAOM offers us neither of these and, in fact, they dropped the whole idea of board certification from their website awhile back. You see, basic licensing requirements are not board certification or some specialty designation. There are no national healthcare licenses as this concept does not exist. Each and every state regulates its own healthcare professionals. Hope this helps. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:05:53 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Fiamma NCCAOM is an ENTRY LEVEL TEST which the majority of states use. Though, foor additional $$$ etc..........the NCCAOM ALSO offers a CERTIFICATION in various modalities such as acupuncture, herbs, both, etc. Too many practitioners think that the NCCAOM TEST is some sort of national license. It's NOT and NEITHER is the Board Certification(s). In the majority of states..... which utilize NCCAOM.......as entry level test....it is NOT necessary to pay NCCAOM for any further board certification.........whereas in about 15 states it is REQUIRED that a licensee has and continues to pay and update the Board Certification. Some believe that this appears monopolistic and maybe unconstitutional even though its in the state's laws. State law(s) are not always constitutional....... which cannot be determined until challenged in court. Richard In a message dated 10/08/09 11:19:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Michael OK so now we are on the same page. NCCAOM does in fact Board Certify. The first year I was licensed, like a novice thinking that it meant something special, I paid an additional fee ($400 if I remember correctly) to ALSO be Board Certified. It wasn't until 1 renewal later that I dumped the whole idea.....maybe when the second renewal came around. Any Board Certification in the allopathic world must be approved by the (ABMS) American Board of Medical Specialties which requires at least 3 years ADDITIONAL schooling depending on the specialty...... and then and only then.... the taking AND PASSING of a Board Certification TEST. I suspect you might remember that it appeared that the NCCAOM, up until January 2001 was allowing ANY one with a DC or MD degree in as Board Certified........without any national standard acupuncture education by ACAOM (I believe at the time was 1,725 hrs) AND more importantly WITHOUT the taking AND PASSING of a NATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL TEST. They allowed it under the good-ol-boy idea of " credential document review " . Were you one of these .......under your DC license? As to individual state governments........kudos go out to Hawaii for sticking it to the acupuncture wannabees without ANY acupuncture education who want to pick up an acupuncture needle and use it. In Hawaii they (MDs, DOs etc) MUST go through the SAME 4 year program as any acupuncturist AND pass the NATIONAL EXAM. Richard In a message dated 10/9/2009 6:45:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, They exist due to our own attempts at legitimacy and reluctance at doing things the right way. In case we have forgotten, many years ago the powers that be decided that we needed to become legit but not in the normal ways. We have created greater frustration then what is needed. Look what we have today as a good result. Lots of pats on the back and self-congratulatory talk but little or no respect from the majority of healthcare professions. The public largely does not know who we are or even that we exist. Your example of certification is right on as well. Certificates are largely singular events that one gets recognized for and not long-standing organizational membership, forced upon us for state licensing. In case anyone is wondering, CA does not recognize the NCCAOM and chooses to license our profession by administration of its own exam. This is the way that govt should be doing things. The profession and the licensing exam are under each state's authority and should not be subverted, even by us. Just a quick thought about govt and its functions. So, why are we using the terms " national board certification " and do we understand that usage of this might compromise our ethical obligations to correctly advertise ourselves? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Richard, They exist due to our own attempts at legitimacy and reluctance at doing things the right way. In case we have forgotten, many years ago the powers that be decided that we needed to become legit but not in the normal ways. We have created greater frustration then what is needed. Look what we have today as a good result. Lots of pats on the back and self-congratulatory talk but little or no respect from the majority of healthcare professions. The public largely does not know who we are or even that we exist. Your example of certification is right on as well. Certificates are largely singular events that one gets recognized for and not long-standing organizational membership, forced upon us for state licensing. In case anyone is wondering, CA does not recognize the NCCAOM and chooses to license our profession by administration of its own exam. This is the way that govt should be doing things. The profession and the licensing exam are under each state's authority and should not be subverted, even by us. Just a quick thought about govt and its functions. So, why are we using the terms " national board certification " and do we understand that usage of this might compromise our ethical obligations to correctly advertise ourselves? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 8 Oct 2009 20:00:23 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael As to national licensing.....that's what I already stated...there is no such thing. But as to Certification (board or otherwise) here we go again about semantics or possibly misinformation. What is a " certification " ? Why would a national testing agency need to CERTIFY anything other than the original taking/passing of the national exam? Why would any practitioner NEED or WANT a certification other than a verification of their passing said exam? All an applicant for a state license ever has to do is PAY NCCAOM a fee to document their passing of the NCCAOM exam. I just looked at their website and here are the results. _http://www.nccaom.org/applicants/certifications.html_ (http://www.nccaom.org/applicants/certifications.html) Application for Original Certification _http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/HB2009v1_App_only.pdf_ (http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/HB2009v1_App_only.pdf) Application for Recertification _http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/2009_Recert_App_only.pdf_ (http://www.nccaom.org/handbooks/2009_Recert_App_only.pdf) And I haven't even bothered to double check those 15 states which REQUIRE a Diplomate Recertification by NCCAOM ion order to renew the state license. Richard In a message dated 10/8/2009 5:24:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: The issue of board certification or national licensing is not applicable to our profession. The NCCAOM offers us neither of these and, in fact, they dropped the whole idea of board certification from their website awhile back. You see, basic licensing requirements are not board certification or some specialty designation. There are no national healthcare licenses as this concept does not exist. Each and every state regulates its own healthcare professionals. Hope this helps. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Thu, 8 Oct 2009 15:05:53 -0400 Re: TCM - legal question/scope of practice Fiamma NCCAOM is an ENTRY LEVEL TEST which the majority of states use. Though, foor additional $$$ etc..........the NCCAOM ALSO offers a CERTIFICATION in various modalities such as acupuncture, herbs, both, etc. Too many practitioners think that the NCCAOM TEST is some sort of national license. It's NOT and NEITHER is the Board Certification(s). In the majority of states..... which utilize NCCAOM.......as entry level test....it is NOT necessary to pay NCCAOM for any further board certification.........whereas in about 15 states it is REQUIRED that a licensee has and continues to pay and update the Board Certification. Some believe that this appears monopolistic and maybe unconstitutional even though its in the state's laws. State law(s) are not always constitutional....... which cannot be determined until challenged in court. Richard In a message dated 10/08/09 11:19:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fiammasita writes: I'm fairly sure that my National license, which covers hersb, does not trump the State laws. I am wondering what others think about these issues. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Richard, No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as advise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1; acudoc acudoc11 Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:03:24 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael OK so now we are on the same page. NCCAOM does in fact Board Certify. The first year I was licensed, like a novice thinking that it meant something special, I paid an additional fee ($400 if I remember correctly) to ALSO be Board Certified. It wasn't until 1 renewal later that I dumped the whole idea.....maybe when the second renewal came around. Any Board Certification in the allopathic world must be approved by the (ABMS) American Board of Medical Specialties which requires at least 3 years ADDITIONAL schooling depending on the specialty...... and then and only then.... the taking AND PASSING of a Board Certification TEST. I suspect you might remember that it appeared that the NCCAOM, up until January 2001 was allowing ANY one with a DC or MD degree in as Board Certified........without any national standard acupuncture education by ACAOM (I believe at the time was 1,725 hrs) AND more importantly WITHOUT the taking AND PASSING of a NATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL TEST. They allowed it under the good-ol-boy idea of " credential document review " . Were you one of these .......under your DC license? As to individual state governments........kudos go out to Hawaii for sticking it to the acupuncture wannabees without ANY acupuncture education who want to pick up an acupuncture needle and use it. In Hawaii they (MDs, DOs etc) MUST go through the SAME 4 year program as any acupuncturist AND pass the NATIONAL EXAM. Richard In a message dated 10/9/2009 6:45:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, They exist due to our own attempts at legitimacy and reluctance at doing things the right way. In case we have forgotten, many years ago the powers that be decided that we needed to become legit but not in the normal ways. We have created greater frustration then what is needed. Look what we have today as a good result. Lots of pats on the back and self-congratulatory talk but little or no respect from the majority of healthcare professions. The public largely does not know who we are or even that we exist. Your example of certification is right on as well. Certificates are largely singular events that one gets recognized for and not long-standing organizational membership, forced upon us for state licensing. In case anyone is wondering, CA does not recognize the NCCAOM and chooses to license our profession by administration of its own exam. This is the way that govt should be doing things. The profession and the licensing exam are under each state's authority and should not be subverted, even by us. Just a quick thought about govt and its functions. So, why are we using the terms " national board certification " and do we understand that usage of this might compromise our ethical obligations to correctly advertise ourselves? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Whatever one's final opinion is regarding the very notion of " certification " , it should be noted, that NCCAOM does not " certify " all applicants. Those who take the NCCAOM minimum testing of " Foundations " , and " Point Location " , are regarded as AP's, without any " certification " . However, for those that desire to be " certified " , they may choose to voluntarily also take the " Biomed " and " Herbalism " tests, which leads to " Board Certification " . I'm not certain though that I'm following the argument here quite well. If NCCAOM offers " board certification " , and somebody decides to promote themselves as " board certified " , in what way is this potentially " unethical " ? The way I'm reading the argument, is that unless and until a state government steps in, and creates a " proper certification " , no certifications should be regarded as authentic. If my analysis is sound, this translates into saying that governmental authority always makes the best choices, and is the most certain authority. Is that correct? Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Richard, > No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. > BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. > I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as advise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. > I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > CC: habeas_1; acudoc > acudoc11 > Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:03:24 -0400 > Re: legal question/scope of practice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > OK so now we are on the same page. NCCAOM does in fact Board Certify. > > > > The first year I was licensed, like a novice thinking that it meant > > something special, I paid an additional fee ($400 if I remember correctly) to > > ALSO be Board Certified. It wasn't until 1 renewal later that I dumped the > > whole idea.....maybe when the second renewal came around. > > > > Any Board Certification in the allopathic world must be approved by the > > (ABMS) American Board of Medical Specialties which requires at least 3 years > > ADDITIONAL schooling depending on the specialty...... and then and only > > then.... the taking AND PASSING of a Board Certification TEST. > > > > I suspect you might remember that it appeared that the NCCAOM, up until > > January 2001 was allowing ANY one with a DC or MD degree in as Board > > Certified........without any national standard acupuncture education by ACAOM (I > > believe at the time was 1,725 hrs) AND more importantly WITHOUT the taking > > AND PASSING of a NATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL TEST. They allowed it under the > > good-ol-boy idea of " credential document review " . > > > > Were you one of these .......under your DC license? > > > > As to individual state governments........kudos go out to Hawaii for > > sticking it to the acupuncture wannabees without ANY acupuncture education who > > want to pick up an acupuncture needle and use it. In Hawaii they (MDs, DOs > > etc) MUST go through the SAME 4 year program as any acupuncturist AND pass > > the NATIONAL EXAM. > > > > Richard > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/2009 6:45:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > naturaldoc1 writes: > > > > Richard, > > They exist due to our own attempts at legitimacy and reluctance at doing > > things the right way. In case we have forgotten, many years ago the powers > > that be decided that we needed to become legit but not in the normal ways. > > We have created greater frustration then what is needed. Look what we > > have today as a good result. Lots of pats on the back and self-congratulatory > > talk but little or no respect from the majority of healthcare professions. > > The public largely does not know who we are or even that we exist. Your > > example of certification is right on as well. Certificates are largely > > singular events that one gets recognized for and not long-standing > > organizational membership, forced upon us for state licensing. In case anyone is > > wondering, CA does not recognize the NCCAOM and chooses to license our > > profession by administration of its own exam. This is the way that govt should be > > doing things. The profession and the licensing exam are under each state's > > authority and should not be subverted, even by us. Just a quick thought > > about govt and its functions. > > So, why are we using the terms " national board certification " and do we > > understand that usage of this might compromise our ethical obligations to > > correctly advertise ourselves? > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 hi all I red all your e-mails about certificate. My name is Delgerzul I'm from Mongolia ( not Inner Mongolia). And i graduated from Guangzhou TCM University.I'm more interested in acupuncture. if i want to work in USA by my profession, which kind of license do i need, what kind of exams do i need to pass.do i need to take NCCAOM exams? if someone send me suggestion and some informational websites which could help newcomers, i would be very glad. sorry about my poor English sincerely DEGI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 No...not correct. If one is to follow the allopathic model, NO state sets the standard for BOARD CERTIFICATION!! The American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS) sets those standards for each and every sub specialty in medicine and by the way....acupuncture is NOT one of them. So it appears that MDs & DOs who run around calling themselves BOARD CERTIFIED IN ACUPUNCTURE are violating their own medical standards yet no one disciplines them for it. The NCCAOM Certification(s) is the major one out there because no one else has the guts to come forth to COMPETE. And if you didn;t know there ARE certain Board sub specialties in AOM such as the one in - fertility and I took the one from Arkansas and am Board Certified in AOM Family Practice. It may not be NATIONAL but its more legitimate than others having to have TAKEN additional education and PASSED a REAL test regarding that additional schooling. There was a great start at competition, a few years back, to the ACAOM/CCAOM/NCCAOM with Ted Priebe's group in California. Have not heard much recently where they are at but I do recall they were met with some very nervous opposition. Heaven's forbid the apparent monopoly has some viable competition. With competition the prices would be much more reasonable. In Florida in 1994 the same 2800 hour (36 month-4 yr) program was only $15,000. And NOW with the 6 schools remaining its apparently around $50,000. NOTHING changed - so what rationale makes those night-trade-schools also called independent colleges able to charge that kind of money? Especially since the profession is still NOT accepted on par with other primary care providers (in those states where the licensees are primary care) both with education status (regionally accredited) and with healthcare reimbursement. Its just perfectly A-OK to reimburse an MD who knows absolutely nothing about acupuncture but not the well trained LAc. Now that makes a whole lot of sense!!! Thje question to be asked and answered is: If you simply PAY an additional fee when one sits for the entry level test for a so-called NATIONAL BOARD CERTIFICATION and then all one has to do every few years is to take the usual CEUs - IS that a real BOARD CERTIFICATION? And lets make the question real simple.....just for acupuncture. As to herbs etc......many state scopes of practice INCLUDES the use of herbs so there is NO need to take a SEPARATE exam or CERTIFICATION. If the testing agency would simply include some herbal questions. Here in Florida we did NOT have to take and pass ANY herbal exams because its included in the scope and under the overall definition of acupuncture/Oriental medicine. Richard In a message dated 10/10/2009 9:20:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, aryaksatriya writes: Whatever one's final opinion is regarding the very notion of " certification " " certification " <WBR>, it should be noted, that " certify " all applicants. Those who take the NCCAOM minimum testing of " Foundations " Those " Point Location " , are regarded as AP's, without any " certification " " However, for those that desire to be " certified " , they may choose to voluntarily also take the " Biomed " and " Herbalism " tests, which leads to " Board Certification " wh I'm not certain though that I'm following the argument here quite well. If NCCAOM offers " board certification " I'm not certain thoug promote themselves as " board certified " , in what way is this potentially " unethical " ? The way I'm reading the argument, is that unless and until a state government steps in, and creates a " proper certification " state go certifications should be regarded as authentic. If my analysis is sound, this translates into saying that governmental authority always makes the best choices, and is the most certain authority. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Michael COMMERCIAL FREE SPEECH (case law.....in Federal Court in 1995/96 - Miami) as previously written about......it is not fraud or deceptive as long as there are proper and complete disclosure/disclaimers. Apparently according to the summary head-notes and the details of that case....one can use such designations as long as they clarify and fully disclose.......... whether it be the use of the word " doctor " or even within the discussion of the use of " board certification " . Even the use of national board certification is more than likely allowable since the NCCAOM is at this time and has been since its inception used in the majority of states in which acupuncture is licensed. You are suggesting an ethical question which is something different. As to reductions in training......there exists a flawed basis when building a solid structure in the sand....eventually it has to collapse and be rebuilt. No different than the US govt/Fed issuing money with nothing backing it. You got to pay the Piper at some point. The US dollar index keeps sliding and the precious metals keep climbing. And foreign currencies are also rising compared to the US $. There should be no surprise either there or here. Richard In a message dated 10/10/2009 7:24:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as advise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Richard, Say what? Not sure of your responses and what they were directed toward. Let me clarify my position. There is an established process of setting up specialty board certifications. This is something that our profession has largely overlooked. Similarly, we see similar creation of our educational system that is highly questionable. Creating something unique is not necessarily bad but we must really question what our goals are and why we are doing it so differently from the established norms. As far as free speech, it is not unlimited and states have the right to decide who can use " doctor " or " physician " in title. Likewise, states have the constitutional authority to regulate healthcare professionals. That means that we lose some of our rights in order to participate in the profession, that's the tradeoff. As NCCAOM certification is just that, I would not use it with any mention of national board in the same sentence. One final thought on this and that is that some people do know what it means to be " Board certified " in a specialty and when we do this on our own, we look simply foolish. Others might have other thoughts on this but please consider that the public may consider this as misrepresentation of the facts. I wonder what an opposition attorney would do upon examination of an LAc's credentials and this issue in court. This is one place where it should count. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: habeas_1 acudoc11 Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:08:45 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael COMMERCIAL FREE SPEECH (case law.....in Federal Court in 1995/96 - Miami) as previously written about......it is not fraud or deceptive as long as there are proper and complete disclosure/disclaimers. Apparently according to the summary head-notes and the details of that case....one can use such designations as long as they clarify and fully disclose.......... whether it be the use of the word " doctor " or even within the discussion of the use of " board certification " . Even the use of national board certification is more than likely allowable since the NCCAOM is at this time and has been since its inception used in the majority of states in which acupuncture is licensed. You are suggesting an ethical question which is something different. As to reductions in training......there exists a flawed basis when building a solid structure in the sand....eventually it has to collapse and be rebuilt. No different than the US govt/Fed issuing money with nothing backing it. You got to pay the Piper at some point. The US dollar index keeps sliding and the precious metals keep climbing. And foreign currencies are also rising compared to the US $. There should be no surprise either there or here. Richard In a message dated 10/10/2009 7:24:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as advise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 The NCCAOM really offer certification, the whole idea that this is somehow a national board certification much like a specialty is inaccurate and misleading. The NCCAOM has a code of ethics that prohibits one of its members from false advertising. That was my point. I would think that we should be against using these terms as in a court of law, the opposition counsel will go after your credentials right away and in the end, the board certification will be completely discredited. Just an FYI. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine aryaksatriya Sun, 11 Oct 2009 01:19:54 +0000 Re: legal question/scope of practice Whatever one's final opinion is regarding the very notion of " certification " , it should be noted, that NCCAOM does not " certify " all applicants. Those who take the NCCAOM minimum testing of " Foundations " , and " Point Location " , are regarded as AP's, without any " certification " . However, for those that desire to be " certified " , they may choose to voluntarily also take the " Biomed " and " Herbalism " tests, which leads to " Board Certification " . I'm not certain though that I'm following the argument here quite well. If NCCAOM offers " board certification " , and somebody decides to promote themselves as " board certified " , in what way is this potentially " unethical " ? The way I'm reading the argument, is that unless and until a state government steps in, and creates a " proper certification " , no certifications should be regarded as authentic. If my analysis is sound, this translates into saying that governmental authority always makes the best choices, and is the most certain authority. Is that correct? Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Richard, > No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. > BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. > I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as advise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. > I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > CC: habeas_1; acudoc > acudoc11 > Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:03:24 -0400 > Re: legal question/scope of practice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael > > > > OK so now we are on the same page. NCCAOM does in fact Board Certify. > > > > The first year I was licensed, like a novice thinking that it meant > > something special, I paid an additional fee ($400 if I remember correctly) to > > ALSO be Board Certified. It wasn't until 1 renewal later that I dumped the > > whole idea.....maybe when the second renewal came around. > > > > Any Board Certification in the allopathic world must be approved by the > > (ABMS) American Board of Medical Specialties which requires at least 3 years > > ADDITIONAL schooling depending on the specialty...... and then and only > > then.... the taking AND PASSING of a Board Certification TEST. > > > > I suspect you might remember that it appeared that the NCCAOM, up until > > January 2001 was allowing ANY one with a DC or MD degree in as Board > > Certified........without any national standard acupuncture education by ACAOM (I > > believe at the time was 1,725 hrs) AND more importantly WITHOUT the taking > > AND PASSING of a NATIONAL ENTRY LEVEL TEST. They allowed it under the > > good-ol-boy idea of " credential document review " . > > > > Were you one of these .......under your DC license? > > > > As to individual state governments........kudos go out to Hawaii for > > sticking it to the acupuncture wannabees without ANY acupuncture education who > > want to pick up an acupuncture needle and use it. In Hawaii they (MDs, DOs > > etc) MUST go through the SAME 4 year program as any acupuncturist AND pass > > the NATIONAL EXAM. > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/2009 6:45:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > naturaldoc1 writes: > > > > Richard, > > They exist due to our own attempts at legitimacy and reluctance at doing > > things the right way. In case we have forgotten, many years ago the powers > > that be decided that we needed to become legit but not in the normal ways. > > We have created greater frustration then what is needed. Look what we > > have today as a good result. Lots of pats on the back and self-congratulatory > > talk but little or no respect from the majority of healthcare professions. > > The public largely does not know who we are or even that we exist. Your > > example of certification is right on as well. Certificates are largely > > singular events that one gets recognized for and not long-standing > > organizational membership, forced upon us for state licensing. In case anyone is > > wondering, CA does not recognize the NCCAOM and chooses to license our > > profession by administration of its own exam. This is the way that govt should be > > doing things. The profession and the licensing exam are under each state's > > authority and should not be subverted, even by us. Just a quick thought > > about govt and its functions. > > So, why are we using the terms " national board certification " and do we > > understand that usage of this might compromise our ethical obligations to > > correctly advertise ourselves? > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael Do you believe in the tooth fairy? What I mean by that question by analogy is....when you read say an apartment lease the brokers tells you the story that the document is a STANDARDIZED lease. And you believe it....but there is NO such thing. Just their STORY that the lease is STANDARDIZED. The same in these issues. Apparently many see and believe the hype/stories they are told.....that this is the ONLY way to do it.....or you CAN NOT set up another school accreditation system, or program accreditation system, or national testing agency.....until such a time when someone comes along and sets up another. As to goals.....when one needs to STOP monopolistic situations - that's a good reason. Or when one's freedom of speech is being stomped on...that's another one. You obviously are under some opinionated misconceptions. The ONLY thing that counts in this situation is LAW & FEDERAL CASE LAW. Go and study Constitutional Law and the specific CASE LAW on the " title of doctor " and maybe one day you will comprehend it. NONE OF THE ABOVE IS MEANT AS LEGAL ADVICE! Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:04:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Say what? Not sure of your responses and what they were directed toward. Let me clarify my position. There is an established process of setting up specialty board certifications. This is something that our profession has largely overlooked. Similarly, we see similar creation of our educational system that is highly questionable. Creating something unique is not necessarily bad but we must really question what our goals are and why we are doing it so differently from the established norms. As far as free speech, it is not unlimited and states have the right to decide who can use " doctor " or " physician " in title. Likewise, states have the constitutional authority to regulate healthcare professionals. That means that we lose some of our rights in order to participate in the profession, that's the tradeoff. As NCCAOM certification is just that, I would not use it with any mention of national board in the same sentence. One final thought on this and that is that some people do know what it means to be " Board certified " in a specialty and when we do this on our own, we look simply foolish. Others might have other thoughts on this but please consider that the public may consider this as misrepresentation of the facts. I wonder what an opposition attorney would do upon examination of an LAc's credentials and this issue in court. This is one place where it should count. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) CC: _habeas_1_ (habeas_1) _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:08:45 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael COMMERCIAL FREE SPEECH (case law.....in Federal Court in 1995/96 - Miami) as previously written about......it is not fraud or deceptive as long as there are proper and complete disclosure/disclaimthere are proper and complete the summary head-notes and the details of that case....one can use such designations as long as they clarify and fully disclose....designations as long a be the use of the word " doctor " or even within the discussion of the use of " board certification " " board certification " <WBR>. Even the use of nation more than likely allowable since the NCCAOM is at this time and has been since its inception used in the majority of states in which acupuncture is licensed. You are suggesting an ethical question which is something different. As to reductions in training....As to reductions in training....<WB building a solid structure in the sand....eventually it has to collapse and be rebuilt. No different than the US govt/Fed issuing money with nothing backing it. You got to pay the Piper at some point. The US dollar index keeps sliding and the precious metals keep climbing. And foreign currencies are also rising compared to the US $. There should be no surprise either there or here. Richard In a message dated 10/10/2009 7:24:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) writes: Richard, No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as ad vise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. _http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_ (http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael Before you said that the NCCAOM did NOT have any National Board Certification and NOW you say they DO. What's up with that? One can't be held to the NCCAOM standards if they do NOT play in their sand box. Also.....one can CREATE a NEW sandbox. Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:15:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: The NCCAOM really offer certification, the whole idea that this is somehow a national board certification much like a specialty is inaccurate and misleading. The NCCAOM has a code of ethics that prohibits one of its members from false advertising. That was my point. I would think that we should be against using these terms as in a court of law, the opposition counsel will go after your credentials right away and in the end, the board certification will be completely discredited. Just an FYI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hi Delgerzul, I suggest you go to the NCCAOM website. Here you will find all the information under the " Foreign Education Application " . Briefly - your University will have to send copies of certificates and transcripts to the AACRAO (American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions officers) in Washington D.C. They will then look at your qualifications , your University (is it on their list of recognised TCM Universities) and deem whether you are an eligable candidate to sit the NCCAOM exam. The whole process of dealing with the AACRAO can take a lot of time, so apply asap to get things rolling. Goodluck, Simon Chinese Medicine delgerzul Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:06:50 -0700 Re: legal question/scope of practice hi all I red all your e-mails about certificate. My name is Delgerzul I'm from Mongolia ( not Inner Mongolia). And i graduated from Guangzhou TCM University.I'm more interested in acupuncture. if i want to work in USA by my profession, which kind of license do i need, what kind of exams do i need to pass.do i need to take NCCAOM exams? if someone send me suggestion and some informational websites which could help newcomers, i would be very glad. sorry about my poor English sincerely DEGI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael You miss my point. Its not that I want a new sandbox. Its that that appears to be the only way to present an alternative. After I was illegally thrown out of the state AOM organization I formed a new one which also is a national one. The AOMNCC has over 1200 national members and 400 in Florida. It must have been a real threat to the existing sandboxe(s) as the website was hacked for a short while for someone to SEE about our membership. That mistake won;t happen again. The AOMNCC (a for profit corp) which is the ONLY organization that ever filed a Federal Class Action RICO lawsuit in 2004. Where were all the other state and national orgs? The AOMNCC supported the Federal Acupuncture Bill in 2003 when no other organizations did. Now some six years later everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. I mention these issues because creating new sandboxes does cause change. As to ANY national testing agency..... I would agree. They have no business in 2 different kinds of businesses especially a Board Certification. Richard In a message dated 10/12/2009 5:31:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, They had previously removed this verbage from their website and now they conveniently use quotation marks around the terms as if it is something to hint at but not undertake (ala, Austin Powers). I was unaware that they had added it back and only found it now on their handbook. I know that you want a new sandbox, just not sure that I want to dive into this one until I understand more about our problems with the NCCAOM and state regulatory laws. There does appear to be too much intermingling of things between the two. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael I am not suggesting what others do...... just that that was one of my reasons why I discarded my NCCAOM Board Certification and would never renew. Practitioners make such decisions for themselves when they take action or inaction. That goes towards morality and ethics of the practitioner! Richard In a message dated 10/12/2009 5:34:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: What I have mentioned is that usage of the term " board certified " is misleading and inappropriate for normal routes of licensing as well as the fact that we do not have anything close to the common usage of these terms. I find it confusing and misleading to the public when we attempt to incorrectly use terms that have meanings other then our own creative terms. It makes us look silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Richard, They had previously removed this verbage from their website and now they conveniently use quotation marks around the terms as if it is something to hint at but not undertake (ala, Austin Powers). I was unaware that they had added it back and only found it now on their handbook. I know that you want a new sandbox, just not sure that I want to dive into this one until I understand more about our problems with the NCCAOM and state regulatory laws. There does appear to be too much intermingling of things between the two. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:20:24 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael Before you said that the NCCAOM did NOT have any National Board Certification and NOW you say they DO. What's up with that? One can't be held to the NCCAOM standards if they do NOT play in their sand box. Also.....one can CREATE a NEW sandbox. Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:15:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: The NCCAOM really offer certification, the whole idea that this is somehow a national board certification much like a specialty is inaccurate and misleading. The NCCAOM has a code of ethics that prohibits one of its members from false advertising. That was my point. I would think that we should be against using these terms as in a court of law, the opposition counsel will go after your credentials right away and in the end, the board certification will be completely discredited. Just an FYI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Richard, Not sure where this is coming from. I have been mentioning concerns over the NCCAOM and their confusion with the state legal system. BTW, states are granted the powers to regulate healthcare professions as mentioned in our constitution. Now, I never said anything that came close to agreement with how the NCCAOM has been doing things or how membership is being tied to continual payment for licensing fees. What I have mentioned is that usage of the term " board certified " is misleading and inappropriate for normal routes of licensing as well as the fact that we do not have anything close to the common usage of these terms. I find it confusing and misleading to the public when we attempt to incorrectly use terms that have meanings other then our own creative terms. It makes us look silly. What about the NCCAOM giveaway certifications, like them? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:18:36 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael Do you believe in the tooth fairy? What I mean by that question by analogy is....when you read say an apartment lease the brokers tells you the story that the document is a STANDARDIZED lease. And you believe it....but there is NO such thing. Just their STORY that the lease is STANDARDIZED. The same in these issues. Apparently many see and believe the hype/stories they are told.....that this is the ONLY way to do it.....or you CAN NOT set up another school accreditation system, or program accreditation system, or national testing agency.....until such a time when someone comes along and sets up another. As to goals.....when one needs to STOP monopolistic situations - that's a good reason. Or when one's freedom of speech is being stomped on...that's another one. You obviously are under some opinionated misconceptions. The ONLY thing that counts in this situation is LAW & FEDERAL CASE LAW. Go and study Constitutional Law and the specific CASE LAW on the " title of doctor " and maybe one day you will comprehend it. NONE OF THE ABOVE IS MEANT AS LEGAL ADVICE! Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:04:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Say what? Not sure of your responses and what they were directed toward. Let me clarify my position. There is an established process of setting up specialty board certifications. This is something that our profession has largely overlooked. Similarly, we see similar creation of our educational system that is highly questionable. Creating something unique is not necessarily bad but we must really question what our goals are and why we are doing it so differently from the established norms. As far as free speech, it is not unlimited and states have the right to decide who can use " doctor " or " physician " in title. Likewise, states have the constitutional authority to regulate healthcare professionals. That means that we lose some of our rights in order to participate in the profession, that's the tradeoff. As NCCAOM certification is just that, I would not use it with any mention of national board in the same sentence. One final thought on this and that is that some people do know what it means to be " Board certified " in a specialty and when we do this on our own, we look simply foolish. Others might have other thoughts on this but please consider that the public may consider this as misrepresentation of the facts. I wonder what an opposition attorney would do upon examination of an LAc's credentials and this issue in court. This is one place where it should count. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) CC: _habeas_1_ (habeas_1) _acudoc11_ (acudoc11) Sun, 11 Oct 2009 12:08:45 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael COMMERCIAL FREE SPEECH (case law.....in Federal Court in 1995/96 - Miami) as previously written about......it is not fraud or deceptive as long as there are proper and complete disclosure/disclaimthere are proper and complete the summary head-notes and the details of that case....one can use such designations as long as they clarify and fully disclose....designations as long a be the use of the word " doctor " or even within the discussion of the use of " board certification " " board certification " <WBR>. Even the use of nation more than likely allowable since the NCCAOM is at this time and has been since its inception used in the majority of states in which acupuncture is licensed. You are suggesting an ethical question which is something different. As to reductions in training....As to reductions in training....<WB building a solid structure in the sand....eventually it has to collapse and be rebuilt. No different than the US govt/Fed issuing money with nothing backing it. You got to pay the Piper at some point. The US dollar index keeps sliding and the precious metals keep climbing. And foreign currencies are also rising compared to the US $. There should be no surprise either there or here. Richard In a message dated 10/10/2009 7:24:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _naturaldoc1@naturaldoc1_ (naturaldoc1) writes: Richard, No I was not. I also did not take the acupuncture exam offered by the NBCE. BTW, I do not consider that the NCCAOM is providing any specialty certification, which would come from a Board of such specialty. We do not have anything remotely close to this at this time, which is why I would caution us from making claims after going through one of the associations promoting these. There are a few currently out there. I consider this usage of such terms to construe misrepresentation of our certification, and therefore, a violation of the NCCAOM bylaws. Everyone needs to consider this for themselves, so please do not take this as ad vise. I have always promoted the need for stronger laws and equal educational standards, if one is to use it. No other healthcare profession allows such reductions in training. This puts serious doubts into our education as well. I agree with Hawaii for doing this and hope that other states will follow. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. _http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_ (http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Michael Although NOMAA may have had some problems they represented competition to the present system which was a good thing. When there is a monopoly.........that presents in problems. No easy answer but competition is always GOOD. Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:32:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, No offense but that group was soundly rejected for many reasons (lack of transparency being one, also forcing one unproven theory upon the schools as another). My point is that sometimes creating a new organization can be worse then what we currently have now and a step in the wrong direction. I would say lets fix what we have right now. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Michael This is just a question and not to be taken as legal advice or any advice. Why don't you do something about it in the state you are in? Be proactive! Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:29:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I agree with this as well. If I was back in Cali, I would not need mine either. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Richard, I agree with this as well. If I was back in Cali, I would not need mine either. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:49:45 -0400 Re: legal question/scope of practice Michael I am not suggesting what others do...... just that that was one of my reasons why I discarded my NCCAOM Board Certification and would never renew. Practitioners make such decisions for themselves when they take action or inaction. That goes towards morality and ethics of the practitioner! Richard In a message dated 10/12/2009 5:34:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: What I have mentioned is that usage of the term " board certified " is misleading and inappropriate for normal routes of licensing as well as the fact that we do not have anything close to the common usage of these terms. I find it confusing and misleading to the public when we attempt to incorrectly use terms that have meanings other then our own creative terms. It makes us look silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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