Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Dear group members: Enough is enough. The purpose of the joining this forum is to learn, share, and enrich the knowledge of CM and better ourself. Hugo is the only member here I met personally in Canada. I consider him a brilliant, bright, enthuisatic young men (late 20s?) who has passion for CM, like all of us. He may say something he didn't mean on a spur of moment(or in frustration) and what he said will in no way change the fact that Asians, like white, blacks, hispanics and others can make distinctive sicientists. I hope our members here can be more tolerant for someone who at least eagerly engage in the discussion in this forum. To be honest, I do share his frustration and anxiety when in search of clinical efficacy in the profession of Chinese medicine. None of us wants to be a medicore practitioner and where is the light at the end of the tunnel? To meet the right mentor is crucial. For example, with a gneral CM foundation (theory and general knowledge) such as Hugo's, I think he can turn to be a competitive practitioner in half a year or so in herbal precription. He needs 3 more years to perfect the knowledge and will have a workloard that he (we) long for. Sung, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong) Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi all: > > --Gabriel- > This is not just an American or Canadian forum, it's an international forum, therefore list members should be a little more sensitive to these sort of issues. > --- > > Gabriel, since we are on the topic of " these issues " , please don't use the term " american " to refer to the u.s.a since the term america refers to *two* continental land masses containing upwards of thirty nations. > I am offended to see such a (non-ironical) display of colonialist writing on an international forum. > > As you can see, it is easy to offend. Can you not see that I was simply taking an irritable tack in expressing the colonialist problem regarding western orientalist conceptions? > > I, like you, Gabriel, feel incensed by *legitimately expressed* racism and colonialism, for example in the common psychological writings which state that " Asians tend to somatise illness " because they (unlike whites (or " modern people " , whichever you prefer)) do not have a cultural capacity to express themselves. The asians are all repressed indigenes, in other words. Let's modernise 'em. Google search " asians tend to somatize " and you will see how much one-sided opinion there is on the matter. > > This has huge repercussions for our medicine since modern psychology will in many cases be able to launch an assault against Chinese medicine based on this idea that our attempts to deal with emotional processes are naive, rudimentary and tend to *force somatisation* (this translates to " damaging the patient " ). > > My point is simple, can we all just not have the swine flu anymore? > > Let's be friends again, but thanks for the opportunity to air these issues, Gabe and all, > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120 > Chinese Medicine > Saturday, 17 October, 2009 23:57:53 > Re: Re: Need some herbal data > > > Regardless of the intentions, there are many Asian members in this list that may take offense to such remarks, especially if they don't understand the humor. > Gabe Fuentes > > --- On Sat, 10/17/09, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com> wrote: > > margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald@ gmail.com> > Re: Need some herbal data > > Saturday, October 17, 2009, 7:34 PM > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120@ ...> wrote: > > > > As we all know, asians do not know how to do science right. The work is of poor quality. Certainly not up to our standards here in the shiny west. > > > > > > To just say Asians can't do science right is just ridiculous, is like saying westerners can't do Chinese medicine right. Some of the best research in the world comes out of countries like Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. There are some problems with China's research standards, but I would not include the whole of Asia. > > Gabe Fuentes > > I know Hugo can / will speak for himself, but I'm certain his comment was said tongue-in-cheek, adorned with the luscious taste of irony, or something similar. > The clue is the " shiny west " reference > > My reading of posts in the thread does illuminate the single biggest bugbear in the nomenclature of herbs etc in any materia medica, which is that there is inconsistency between common names of herbs, and the Latin botanical and medicinal names. > > I understand pin yin names for herbs as being common names, and may sometimes refer to one or more plants. > > I struck this recently when trying to understand a modern prepared formula, and couldn't figure out what one of the ingredients was - one pin yin name refers to two completely different plants, depending upon one's references. > I discovered one of the herbs is prohibited for use here in Australia, the other is not. > > My feeling is that the classification and nomenclature of any medicinal plant should be standardised to the Latin; a task which should keep an entire WHO department of ethno-botanists and herbalists et al busy for a decade or two. > > Do we need to address the practice of erroneously naming patent formulas which - for example - should traditionally contain Ginseng; now substituted with the cheaper Codonopsis by many comapnies; yet are still labelled Ginseng & ____________ _ Combination, both in pin yin and english? > > Margi Macdonald > http://margihealing .wordpress. com/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Thanks, Tom. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi all: --YukMing Sung- Hugo is the only member here I met personally in Canada. I consider him a brilliant, bright, enthuisatic young men (late 20s?) --- Mid 30s. haha. Which brings me to the secret of remaining young, beyond being of " ethnic " descent: Last Saturday I was in (remedial) class with my teacher and about 7 others. We covered some of the fine detailing involving theory on stomachaches, and I was struck by something - he looks roughly the same as he did 14 years ago when I began studying with him, and he was about 60 at the time. The only thing I was able to really pin down as different was that he has some definite gizzards now. But otherwise he looks the same. I was looking at him thinking all this because he was regaling us with tales of how some young women were fawning over his lack of wrinkles and wanted to know how he did it, and he said, " notice I have almost no wrinkles, my skin is smooth and with no spots! " So the story is he takes 4 grams or so of tian qi every day and 4 pills of Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang every morning (lately he has also been taking Yun Zhi tablets). And it's true, amazingly, he has no liver spots at all, and his skin is very smooth. Hoping this marks my final recovery from swine flu, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Hi Yuk-ming, I haven't read this whole thread, but yes, Tom's right. It's the same part (the root " radix " ) of what is probably the same plant (Scrophularia is the genus, the species isn't stated). Amusingly, the two names you provided are each wrong for different reasons. 1. Scrophulariae Radix - Although this word order is common it's just not right. The correct way, following WHO monographs FWIW and typical Latin word order, is to put the organism's part (root, leaf, stem, etc.) first, followed by the species (or genus) name in the genitive case. 2. Radix Scrofularia - The order is ok now but " Scrofularia " needs to be spelled correctly and declined into the genitive case. Off topic, but the spelling reminds me of something I noticed in this short and fun read http://www.archive.org/details/botanicalnamesfo00alco Scrophula'ria, Brunfels. From L. scrofula ; the roots of some species resembling scrofulous tumours, " and it is reported to be a remedie against those diseases whereof it took his name. " †" Gerard. Bob Flaws has an excellent post on the Blue Poppy site about Latin pharmacological nomenclature http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/01/14/re-latin-medicinal-iden\ tifications. His article brings up several great points and suggestions. It may be a little tough if the reader doesn't have a background in Latin. There are simple primers online, for example http://www.pondplants.com/FAQ_BotanicalLatin_LessonOne.html, or you can send me an email if you have some questions about Latin. The basics are pretty easy. If you're calling a plant by its name, use the nominative case of the noun, ex: Salvia miltiorrhiza. Note this is the name of the plant, genus Salvia in caps, and species miltiorrhiza in lower case. If we're talking about the medicinal, we specify the part of the plant first, followed by the plant name in the genitive case, all first letter caps, ex: Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae. The genitive just means " of " , or indicates possession. Someone may have mentioned this resource already: http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/mss/intro.htm Good luck with your project, Charlie Thomson Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > Dr Sung, > > > > The two names that you gave are of course the same plant, the only > difference being spelling, conjunction and word order. The correct version > should be either Radix (Rx.) Scrophulariae or Scrophulariae Radix, both are > fine. Scrophularia is the plant, we write Scrophulariae as it is the > genitivum form (radix of Scrophularia). At least I think that is correct, > > > > Regards, > > > > Tom. > > > > Tom Verhaeghe > > Stationsplein 59 > > 8770 Ingelmunster > > www.chinese-geneeskunde.be > > _____ > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Yuk Ming > zaterdag 17 oktober 2009 4:29 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Need some herbal data > > > > I found that there are major differences in the latin names. For example, > xuan shen, in one book, it is Scrophulariae Radix, and the other is Radix > Scrofularia. Can someone comment on this because I am going to ask here > anyway. > > Sung, Yuk-ming > Phd (Chengu U TCM), BA(Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong) > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Charlie, Thanks for your guidance to those websites. They are beautiful and informative. Fortunately I have learnt French, Spanish, and German before (last century), latin is not that scary to me. Spelling of them is. Anyway, my mission is to get the latin names of the medicinals used in my book correct. My spelling of scrofularis is wrong, (as i was informed by my source)What I am interested in is you mentioning some species resembling scrofulous tumor may be the remedy for the related disease. It may be true in our nature that every specie has its natural enermy so our eco system will be balanced. However, cancer cell seems different. Our body is like a mini eco system and tackling mutated cells (cancer cells) or cancer as a disease needs to have a holistic approach. Pattern differentiation is always our best bet. I have no knowledge of anything documented about the shape of any plant is associated with its indications (the color and flavor of medicinal does). But as a norm of folk culture, consuming the organs of animals do benefit our organs. Sung, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), BA (Houston), L Ac (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Joey Thanks. I had visited the website and have tried to log in but no success yet. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 You will have to create an account, but it should be free. You can also email me the list and i will send you what bensky has for Latin if your still in need. Joey Bedrosian LMBT (NC#3259) Advanced Massage Therapy 704-578-6245 nrgcreator live long & love strong ________________________________ Yuk Ming <sxm2649 Chinese Medicine Tue, October 20, 2009 9:26:42 AM Re: Need some herbal data Joey Thanks. I had visited the website and have tried to log in but no success yet. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2009 Report Share Posted October 22, 2009 Joey: Some member had sent that to me but much appreciate your kindness. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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