Guest guest Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Mike, Your idea that states should certify is also problematical. What if you move to a state after practicing in another for many years, and you do not pass the state's exam. This happened to a friend of mine who moved to Nevada. The exam was very quirky and designed to eliminate people who had not studied in the state. She passed the second time around but it was a nuisance. The advantage of a national system, like NCCAOM, is that it eliminates those hazards. My problems with NCCAOM is that it is very difficult to deal with them. Their attitude is not helpful. The rules do not make sense. For example, I took the Acupuncture exams years ago and then decided to study herbs. I wanted to get the herb certificate for which they have a box on the application. It turned out that I had to take the completely crazy and non-job related bio med exam. Then I became the exalted DOM. If herbalist does not exist as a designation without acupuncture and bio med, then they should remove the category. About bio-med, there are useful things to know about anatomy and physiology. TCM.tests.com actually does a good job of testing about these matters BUT the bio med exam has absolutely nothing in common with that preparation. Zinnia attentivedragon.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Z, I did not say anything about states certifying us. States regulate us. NV is one of the few that give their own exam and there has been some concern about overly tight controls by the practitioners and their board. I guess in some cases the states actually provide the wording of certification but most acupuncturists are licensed. The issue of national standards will continue to create problems like you mention but am unclear what will happen, as CA has increased its hours, while the rest of the country is relying upon the ACAOM-only standards and what states put into law. We can either increase one or try to decrease the other, not likely to happen in either case. CA has a third of the LAc population and they do not want lower standards, also trying to retain primarycare status in workman's comp system. The real issue is about how we see our profession. I have observed that in the states where an LAc is granted a better scope of practice, we see much more inclusion as a " medical provider " and in those states where we see a weaker scope, we see more small general practices. We do not have a national system and that can only happen when each and every state has the same set of laws in place that deal with educational requirements for licensure. The NCCAOM is a voluntary certification organization and is unnecessary for anything in CA, where most of the LAc's are. The NCCAOM has attempted to insert itself in a regulatory role so that states would not need too. The problem here is that states no longer have jurisdiction over the examination process and this can create some interesting legal and other problems. Who is ultimately responsible for an examinee getting their license and then commits a crime due to lack of training? Is it the state or the NCCAOM? I hope you can see what I am asking. It is fine that they offer a certification exam in acupuncture, herbs, bodywork, etc. Also, the states should not require a continual payment towards your license to the NCCAOM, as it becomes the most expensive licensing exam quickly and forces you to pay a private party. There is too much confusion over responsibilities and purpose when you have a private entity doing a state's job. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine cmszinnia Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:01:33 +0000 states doing certification Mike, Your idea that states should certify is also problematical. What if you move to a state after practicing in another for many years, and you do not pass the state's exam. This happened to a friend of mine who moved to Nevada. The exam was very quirky and designed to eliminate people who had not studied in the state. She passed the second time around but it was a nuisance. The advantage of a national system, like NCCAOM, is that it eliminates those hazards. My problems with NCCAOM is that it is very difficult to deal with them. Their attitude is not helpful. The rules do not make sense. For example, I took the Acupuncture exams years ago and then decided to study herbs. I wanted to get the herb certificate for which they have a box on the application. It turned out that I had to take the completely crazy and non-job related bio med exam. Then I became the exalted DOM. If herbalist does not exist as a designation without acupuncture and bio med, then they should remove the category. About bio-med, there are useful things to know about anatomy and physiology. TCM.tests.com actually does a good job of testing about these matters BUT the bio med exam has absolutely nothing in common with that preparation. Zinnia attentivedragon.com _______________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael Incorrect again. States can and do certify. As a matter of FACT, Florida considers registration, licensing and certification ALL THE SAME. As an additional..... matter of FACT, Florida Board of Chiropractic Medicine CERTIFIED licensed DCs to PRACTICE acupuncture after 100 hours of education. NCCAOM is ONLY voluntary in those states where they did not yet work it into the state law. It appears to be almost a 50-50 split. Now you are getting to another core issue. Why do states outsource a governmental duty which belongs to them? Florida did perform the testing early on but because of some crooked actions of some....they got sued and lost and then ran away. California and New Jersey (I believe) took the bull by the horns and did not pass it off. Why I was legally abused from 2002 - 2006?.....was because I had a Florida Bill Amendment in 2002 (in both the Florida House & Senate) to make Florida APs into " Doctors " by legislation (not be education) and fully accepted as " licensed physicians " along with MDs, DOs, DCs with ONLY increasing the 2800 hours to 3200 hours. That's ALL it would have taken. The night-trade-schools came out of their holes and overtly & covertly caused one of the nastiest attacks one could imagine. Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:39:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Z, I did not say anything about states certifying us. States regulate us. NV is one of the few that give their own exam and there has been some concern about overly tight controls by the practitioners and their board. I guess in some cases the states actually provide the wording of certification but most acupuncturists are licensed. The issue of national standards will continue to create problems like you mention but am unclear what will happen, as CA has increased its hours, while the rest of the country is relying upon the ACAOM-only standards and what states put into law. We can either increase one or try to decrease the other, not likely to happen in either case. CA has a third of the LAc population and they do not want lower standards, also trying to retain primarycare status in workman's comp system. The real issue is about how we see our profession. I have observed that in the states where an LAc is granted a better scope of practice, we see much more inclusion as a " medical provider " and in those states where we see a weaker scope, we see more small general practices. We do not have a national system and that can only happen when each and every state has the same set of laws in place that deal with educational requirements for licensure. The NCCAOM is a voluntary certification organization and is unnecessary for anything in CA, where most of the LAc's are. The NCCAOM has attempted to insert itself in a regulatory role so that states would not need too. The problem here is that states no longer have jurisdiction over the examination process and this can create some interesting legal and other problems. Who is ultimately responsible for an examinee getting their license and then commits a crime due to lack of training? Is it the state or the NCCAOM? I hope you can see what I am asking. It is fine that they offer a certification exam in acupuncture, herbs, bodywork, etc. Also, the states should not require a continual payment towards your license to the NCCAOM, as it becomes the most expensive licensing exam quickly and forces you to pay a private party. There is too much confusion over responsibilities and purpose when you have a private entity doing a state's job. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) _cmszinnia_ (cmszinnia) Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:01:33 +0000 states doing certification Mike, Your idea that states should certify is also problematical. What if you move to a state after practicing in another for many years, and you do not pass the state's exam. This happened to a friend of mine who moved to Nevada. The exam was very quirky and designed to eliminate people who had not studied in the state. She passed the second time around but it was a nuisance. The advantage of a national system, like NCCAOM, is that it eliminates those hazards. My problems with NCCAOM is that it is very difficult to deal with them. Their attitude is not helpful. The rules do not make sense. For example, I took the Acupuncture exams years ago and then decided to study herbs. I wanted to get the herb certificate for which they have a box on the application. It turned out that I had to take the completely crazy and non-job related bio med exam. Then I became the exalted DOM. If herbalist does not exist as a designation without acupuncture and bio med, then they should remove the category. About bio-med, there are useful things to know about anatomy and physiology. TCM.tests.com actually does a good job of testing about these matters BUT the bio med exam has absolutely nothing in common with that preparation. Zinnia attentivedragon.att ________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. _http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_ (http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Michael The old cliche is very true. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. They don't mess with me anymore. As a matter of record.....at the end of those legal cases I thanked one of the junior attorneys for forcing me to study law the hard way. He was very nervous not wanting the credit. I wonder why. lol You wish for commonality throughout all the states. Lets get real.....as you see from each state's laws that's NOT going to happen. Richard In a message dated 10/12/2009 5:15:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I am sorry to hear of your attack. On the other hand, I was responding to the issue of state certifications and did not incorrectly state matters. I am familiar with several states that use language of licensure and one near me that also uses certification of acupuncturists. I do not consider it common to have the verbage of state certification for acupuncturists. I did not say that it does not happen, in fact, I did mention it. Certification is a much weaker designation. This usage of the word certification is not the same as that offered by an organization and tends to be confusing. Now the chiro example is another issue and combines licensing with certification (acupuncture)Now the chiro example is another issue and combines licensing with certification (acupuncture)<WBR>. I do not agree with this short cut but it is considered legal in my state. Yes, I know of some nastiness that the schools can do, as I was well aware of what happened in CA in 1996 over a poorl Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Richard, I am sorry to hear of your attack. On the other hand, I was responding to the issue of state certifications and did not incorrectly state matters. I am familiar with several states that use language of licensure and one near me that also uses certification of acupuncturists. I do not consider it common to have the verbage of state certification for acupuncturists. I did not say that it does not happen, in fact, I did mention it. Certification is a much weaker designation. This usage of the word certification is not the same as that offered by an organization and tends to be confusing. Now the chiro example is another issue and combines licensing with certification (acupuncture). I do not agree with this short cut but it is considered legal in my state. Yes, I know of some nastiness that the schools can do, as I was well aware of what happened in CA in 1996 over a poorly administered exam. We had about 300 estimated graduates that came together to challenge the CAB. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:31:53 -0400 Re: states doing certification Michael Incorrect again. States can and do certify. As a matter of FACT, Florida considers registration, licensing and certification ALL THE SAME. As an additional..... matter of FACT, Florida Board of Chiropractic Medicine CERTIFIED licensed DCs to PRACTICE acupuncture after 100 hours of education. NCCAOM is ONLY voluntary in those states where they did not yet work it into the state law. It appears to be almost a 50-50 split. Now you are getting to another core issue. Why do states outsource a governmental duty which belongs to them? Florida did perform the testing early on but because of some crooked actions of some....they got sued and lost and then ran away. California and New Jersey (I believe) took the bull by the horns and did not pass it off. Why I was legally abused from 2002 - 2006?.....was because I had a Florida Bill Amendment in 2002 (in both the Florida House & Senate) to make Florida APs into " Doctors " by legislation (not be education) and fully accepted as " licensed physicians " along with MDs, DOs, DCs with ONLY increasing the 2800 hours to 3200 hours. That's ALL it would have taken. The night-trade-schools came out of their holes and overtly & covertly caused one of the nastiest attacks one could imagine. Richard In a message dated 10/11/09 10:39:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Z, I did not say anything about states certifying us. States regulate us. NV is one of the few that give their own exam and there has been some concern about overly tight controls by the practitioners and their board. I guess in some cases the states actually provide the wording of certification but most acupuncturists are licensed. The issue of national standards will continue to create problems like you mention but am unclear what will happen, as CA has increased its hours, while the rest of the country is relying upon the ACAOM-only standards and what states put into law. We can either increase one or try to decrease the other, not likely to happen in either case. CA has a third of the LAc population and they do not want lower standards, also trying to retain primarycare status in workman's comp system. The real issue is about how we see our profession. I have observed that in the states where an LAc is granted a better scope of practice, we see much more inclusion as a " medical provider " and in those states where we see a weaker scope, we see more small general practices. We do not have a national system and that can only happen when each and every state has the same set of laws in place that deal with educational requirements for licensure. The NCCAOM is a voluntary certification organization and is unnecessary for anything in CA, where most of the LAc's are. The NCCAOM has attempted to insert itself in a regulatory role so that states would not need too. The problem here is that states no longer have jurisdiction over the examination process and this can create some interesting legal and other problems. Who is ultimately responsible for an examinee getting their license and then commits a crime due to lack of training? Is it the state or the NCCAOM? I hope you can see what I am asking. It is fine that they offer a certification exam in acupuncture, herbs, bodywork, etc. Also, the states should not require a continual payment towards your license to the NCCAOM, as it becomes the most expensive licensing exam quickly and forces you to pay a private party. There is too much confusion over responsibilities and purpose when you have a private entity doing a state's job. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc _Traditional_Traditional_<WBRTraditional_Tra_ (Chinese Medicine ) _cmszinnia_ (cmszinnia) Sun, 11 Oct 2009 14:01:33 +0000 states doing certification Mike, Your idea that states should certify is also problematical. What if you move to a state after practicing in another for many years, and you do not pass the state's exam. This happened to a friend of mine who moved to Nevada. The exam was very quirky and designed to eliminate people who had not studied in the state. She passed the second time around but it was a nuisance. The advantage of a national system, like NCCAOM, is that it eliminates those hazards. My problems with NCCAOM is that it is very difficult to deal with them. Their attitude is not helpful. The rules do not make sense. For example, I took the Acupuncture exams years ago and then decided to study herbs. I wanted to get the herb certificate for which they have a box on the application. It turned out that I had to take the completely crazy and non-job related bio med exam. Then I became the exalted DOM. If herbalist does not exist as a designation without acupuncture and bio med, then they should remove the category. About bio-med, there are useful things to know about anatomy and physiology. TCM.tests.com actually does a good job of testing about these matters BUT the bio med exam has absolutely nothing in common with that preparation. Zinnia attentivedragon.att ________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. _http://clk.atdmt.http://clk.http://clkhttp://clk_ (http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Sorry you are misinformed about Florida. Florida got out of the testing business for all healthcare professions YEARS ago whether for a DC license or a DC getting Certified in Acupuncture. The legislature mandated that ALL professions go to national testing by December 2001. Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:42:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Then we remain with mixed entrance standards and lots of educational variance. Only those of recent graduation will most likely be able to move their practices to another state. The elders will be left with little choice except to go back to school or retire. BTW, the chiropractic profession was able to get similar standards in most states (FL gives its own exam) for licensure and education (all require graduation from a CCE school). There is some variability but mostly the testing is the same. It could be done. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 At least here in Florida the elders need not go back to school or retire for any reason until such time as they actually wish to retire. For what reason does anyone want to pay and additional $70,000 for a NON-PhD research doctoral degree? Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:42:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Then we remain with mixed entrance standards and lots of educational variance. Only those of recent graduation will most likely be able to move their practices to another state. The elders will be left with little choice except to go back to school or retire. BTW, the chiropractic profession was able to get similar standards in most states (FL gives its own exam) for licensure and education (all require graduation from a CCE school). There is some variability but mostly the testing is the same. It could be done. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Michael You still don't get it. In Florida one can NOT rely on what they see in certain sub-board statutes. Florida likes to keep OUTDATED laws on its books. It keeps the confusion HIGH. And it keeps the lawyers making monyet. The Department of Health statute TRUMPS each individual sub-board practice act. Therefore in Chapter 456.017, FS in 2001 the legislature mandated NATIONAL EXAMS. This is the same deal as the Florida FRAUD statute (817.567, FS) which is still on the books even though in 1995 it was STRUCK DOWN as violating the First Amendment of the US Constitution. What you are looking at are useless, powerless statute sections. The one I pointed to takes precedent! Richard THE ABOVE IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE In a message dated 10/13/09 11:37:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, Not for chiropractic according to this link, _http://www.doh.http://wwhttp://www.dohttp://wwwhttp:_ (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/chiro/chiro_faq.html.) Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Then we remain with mixed entrance standards and lots of educational variance. Only those of recent graduation will most likely be able to move their practices to another state. The elders will be left with little choice except to go back to school or retire. BTW, the chiropractic profession was able to get similar standards in most states (FL gives its own exam) for licensure and education (all require graduation from a CCE school). There is some variability but mostly the testing is the same. It could be done. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:33:55 -0400 Re: states doing certification Michael The old cliche is very true. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. They don't mess with me anymore. As a matter of record.....at the end of those legal cases I thanked one of the junior attorneys for forcing me to study law the hard way. He was very nervous not wanting the credit. I wonder why. lol You wish for commonality throughout all the states. Lets get real.....as you see from each state's laws that's NOT going to happen. Richard In a message dated 10/12/2009 5:15:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Richard, I am sorry to hear of your attack. On the other hand, I was responding to the issue of state certifications and did not incorrectly state matters. I am familiar with several states that use language of licensure and one near me that also uses certification of acupuncturists. I do not consider it common to have the verbage of state certification for acupuncturists. I did not say that it does not happen, in fact, I did mention it. Certification is a much weaker designation. This usage of the word certification is not the same as that offered by an organization and tends to be confusing. Now the chiro example is another issue and combines licensing with certification (acupuncture)Now the chiro example is another issue and combines licensing with certification (acupuncture)<WBR>. I do not agree with this short cut but it is considered legal in my state. Yes, I know of some nastiness that the schools can do, as I was well aware of what happened in CA in 1996 over a poorl Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Richard, What degree are you speaking of, the DAOM or something else? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:47:54 -0400 Re: states doing certification At least here in Florida the elders need not go back to school or retire for any reason until such time as they actually wish to retire. For what reason does anyone want to pay and additional $70,000 for a NON-PhD research doctoral degree? Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:42:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Then we remain with mixed entrance standards and lots of educational variance. Only those of recent graduation will most likely be able to move their practices to another state. The elders will be left with little choice except to go back to school or retire. BTW, the chiropractic profession was able to get similar standards in most states (FL gives its own exam) for licensure and education (all require graduation from a CCE school). There is some variability but mostly the testing is the same. It could be done. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Richard, Not for chiropractic according to this link, http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/chiro/chiro_faq.html. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 13 Oct 2009 10:44:50 -0400 Re: states doing certification Sorry you are misinformed about Florida. Florida got out of the testing business for all healthcare professions YEARS ago whether for a DC license or a DC getting Certified in Acupuncture. The legislature mandated that ALL professions go to national testing by December 2001. Richard In a message dated 10/13/09 10:42:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, naturaldoc1 writes: Then we remain with mixed entrance standards and lots of educational variance. Only those of recent graduation will most likely be able to move their practices to another state. The elders will be left with little choice except to go back to school or retire. BTW, the chiropractic profession was able to get similar standards in most states (FL gives its own exam) for licensure and education (all require graduation from a CCE school). There is some variability but mostly the testing is the same. It could be done. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.