Guest guest Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Dear Colleagues, I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Though he has difficulty walking, he has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily. When I started treating him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy. The sores have now healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so. His proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak. None of his pulses give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above is background to my actual question: His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon urination. In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even then only a few drop come out. It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it day and night, every half hour or so. But wait, before you jump on the prostatitis and damp heat bandwagon, first, as I mentioned above neither his pulses nor tongue reflect that at all. Second, he saw his urologist yesterday, who upon examination and testing said that there is no evidence of infection, and though, his prostate is marginally enlarged, it is consistant with someone his age, and certainly contributes little to his current condition. Also, there is no urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be helpful at all. The current condition, he said, was clearly the result of scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra. He is open to herbs and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood stasis, while continuing to warm and open the channels, boost Kidney Yang and nourish Kidney Jing. One other unpleasant side effect: When he bears down too hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates. The benefit of your experience would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Hi I hope to give a small contribution to your case, but understand this is quite complicated from the Western perspective (I am also an MD), and really quite interesting. From a Western perspective, having discounted prostate and bladder causes, we are left with a Urethritis, irritated urethra of unclear etiology. Does he have arthritis or other joint problems? Any eye problems?. At any rate other Western causes are likely difficult to treat. From the TCM perspective, the symptoms certainly seem to point to DH in the Bladder, which you have appropriately challenged by your exam, or Heat in the SI/?heart channels. Any other SI symptoms?. Any trouble sleeping/etc?. I'm not an A + herbs practitioner, but from the acupuncture aspect, would certainly include SI points such as SI 3 and ST 37, along w the usual (REN 3,4, possibly even REN 1 if you are feeling brave, Ht 7 or even 8, LI 11 for heat). Hope I've added something. Chicoliv Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Though he has difficulty walking, he has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily. When I started treating him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy. The sores have now healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so. His proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak. None of his pulses give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above > is background to my actual question: > > His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon urination. In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even then only a few drop come out. It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it day and night, every half hour or so. But wait, before you jump on the prostatitis and damp heat bandwagon, first, as I mentioned above neither his pulses nor tongue reflect that at all. Second, he saw his urologist yesterday, who upon examination and testing said that there is no evidence of infection, and though, his prostate is marginally enlarged, it is consistant with someone his age, and certainly contributes little to his current condition. Also, there is no urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be helpful at all. The current condition, he said, was clearly the result of scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra. He is open to herbs > and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood stasis, while continuing to warm and open the channels, boost Kidney Yang and nourish Kidney Jing. One other unpleasant side effect: When he bears down too hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates. > > The benefit of your experience would be appreciated. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 See below ________________________________ chicoliv <chicoliv Chinese Medicine Sat, October 17, 2009 11:27:56 PM Re: male urinary obstruction from blood stasis and without damp heat Hi I hope to give a small contribution to your case, but understand this is quite complicated from the Western perspective (I am also an MD), and really quite interesting. From a Western perspective, having discounted prostate and bladder causes, we are left with a Urethritis, irritated urethra of unclear etiology. Does he have arthritis or other joint problems? Any eye problems? No, just the asthenia as a sequela to the GBS 5 years ago. From the TCM perspective, the symptoms certainly seem to point to DH in the Bladder, which you have appropriately challenged by your exam, or Heat in the SI/?heart channels. No, his issues are primarily Kidney. Of course, the relationship between Kidney and both Heart and UB are obvious, but here, the primary problem is mechanical--a physical obstruction. He does very well with acupuncture, but remember, as I mentioned, we are dealing with urethritis resulting from old scar tissue. Also, as I have mentioned, clearly this patient has no issues with damp heat. Though he loves the treatments, and during treatments, has no urgency, within a few hours, the pattern of frequency and pain returns. Any other SI symptoms?. Any trouble sleeping/etc? . Were it not for the urgency and pain waking him up, his sleeping would be fine. I'm not an A + herbs practitioner, but from the acupuncture aspect, would certainly include SI points such as SI 3 and ST 37, along w the usual (REN 3,4, possibly even REN 1 if you are feeling brave, Ht 7 or even 8, LI 11 for heat). Most of the point you suggest are logical, and I have needled them, but this patient just doesn't have the patience or time to rely on an acupuncture protocol exclusively, for treatment on a weekly basis. That's why I am looking for feedback for an herbal formula Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda frischman <@.. .> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome. Though he has difficulty walking, he has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily. When I started treating him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy. The sores have now healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so. His proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak. None of his pulses give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above > is background to my actual question: > > His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon urination. In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even then only a few drop come out. It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it day and night, every half hour or so. But wait, before you jump on the prostatitis and damp heat bandwagon, first, as I mentioned above neither his pulses nor tongue reflect that at all. Second, he saw his urologist yesterday, who upon examination and testing said that there is no evidence of infection, and though, his prostate is marginall y enlarged, it is consistant with someone his age, and certainly contributes little to his current condition. Also, there is no urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be helpful at all. The current condition, he said, was clearly the result of scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra. He is open to herbs > and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood stasis, while continuing to warm and open the channels, boost Kidney Yang and nourish Kidney Jing. One other unpleasant side effect: When he bears down too hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates. > > The benefit of your experience would be appreciated. > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Hi Yehuda, I have no experience but your post really grabbed my interest, thought i'd throw out some ideas for brainstorming? 1) How about trying proteolytic enzymes like Serrapeptase (and maybe Nattokinase) to break up the scar tissue? Yun Nan Bai Yao? 2) The Yan De-Xin " Aging and Blood Stasis " (published by blue poppy) is a nice little book about the role of blood stasis in a variety of common geriatric and chronic degenerative internal medicine conditions. I am away from the office, but if you have access to that book, it would likely provide some inspiration on how to modify your base herbal fx to include blood mover ingredients? 3) on itmonline.org, Subhuti Dharmananda has an article on chronic Interstitial Cystitis (which, although it mostly affects women, is essentially the situation of difficult painful urination where infectious etiology has been ruled out, and KD def plus Blood Stasis is often involved. so in some ways similar to your case?). There's a discussion of starting with Ba Zheng San as a base fx, removing the major damp and heat reducing herbs, and then adding/emphasizing the use of blood movers. Perhaps a similar strategy would be helpful here? http://www.itmonline.org/arts/cystitis.htm 4) Alternatively, would this Wu Bi Shan Yao Wan fit your patient's base pattern, from which you can modify? http://www.tcmpage.com/hpurinary_infect.html 5) now going way out on a limb -- Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan we use of female patients with fibroids. But when you consider the ingredients/architecture of that fx, would it not be worth considering, combine it with cystitis/urethritis herbs and constitutional herbs for your case? For such a tricky case with no clear answers, I find it helpful to bring together the various herbal options, put on patient's lower abdomen (or whatever the affected bodypart), and then check the pulses to see if pulse pattern changes. A type of kineisiology testing which I learned from a good friend/colleague, and has proven especially valuable for the difficult or confusing cases... something to consider? When I do this in my practice, patients who are sensitive to energies will tell me one formula feels especially good to their body, and their feedback is generally consistent with information i get via muscle kineisiology or pulse testing. Not sure if it helps, but some ideas to toss into the mix. Good luck, pls keep us posted! ~edith -- Edith Chan, L.Ac. Doctoral Fellow www.DanTianWellness.com Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324 On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 12:47 AM, wrote: > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda frischman > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2009 Report Share Posted October 18, 2009 Hi Yehuda, Yehuda wrote: " The current condition, he said, was clearly the result of scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra. > and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood stasis, while continuing to warm and open the channels, boost Kidney Yang and nourish Kidney Jing " Kokko: We talked about these kinds of issues in the Jin Gui class with Arnaud Versluys.. Just some ideas... In chapter 6 of the Jin gui: Blood Impediment disease (Xue bi bing) Treatment.. " In Blood Obstruction, when yin and yang are both faint and both faint pulse on cun and guan, with slight tightness in the chi, the exterior symptoms lack sensation, as if in Wind Obstruction, and Huang qi gui zhi wu wu tang governs. " Huang qi, Shao yao (can use either one or both), Gui zhi, Sheng jiang, Da zao Also, in Chapter 13: Dribbling Urination Disease (Xiao bian lin li bing) this might look like prostatitis or BPH or small UB stones...presentation Treatment: A. For inhibited urination, there is water qi (shui qi) and if the person is thirsty, Gua lou qu mai wan governs.. Gua lou gen (Tian hua fen), Fu ling, Shan yao, Fu zi, Qu mai B. For inhibited urination, Pu hui san (charred Pu huang, Hua shi) Hua shi bai yu san (Hua shi, Luan fa (burned human hair), Bai yu (white fish), Fu ling rong yan tang (Fu ling, Bai zhu, Rong yan (kind of salt) all govern equally. C. For a floating pulse with fever, when there is thirst with a desire to drink water, and inhibited urination, Zhu ling tang governs. For your patient's constitution, Shen qi wan (Jin gui shen qi wan) might be added to one of the formulas above. Shen qi wan tonifies yin, yang and ultimately qi. It has diuretics and blood moving herbs in it (mu dan pi and gui zhi... by promoting HT yang) The small dosage of Fu zi is the yang within the yin to produce the Qi. For instance, Shen qi wan + Pu hui san (10 herbs total). without charring the Pu huang. Sheng di, Shan yao, Shan zhu yu, Fu ling, Ze xie, Mu dan pi, Gui zhi, Fu zi, Pu huang, Hua shi Finally, what about Tao he cheng qi tang modified... Tao ren, Gui zhi, Da huang, Mang xiao, Gan cao to move blood in the lower jiao with the Tao ren, Gui zhi and Da huang (not as a purgative) and to break up accumulations with the salty Mang xiao.... Tao he cheng qi tang belongs to the Taiyang Fu conformation (UB organ) with blood stasis Maybe.. Shen qi wan + Tao ren, Da huang and Mang xiao? Best of luck, K Recent Activity > > - 3 > New Members<Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=\ X3oDMTJmNzZkcWlqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNl\ YwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNTU4NTIwODY-> > > Visit Your Group > <Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZXEycGl\ tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Z\ naHAEc3RpbWUDMTI1NTg1MjA4Ng--> > Give Back > > for Good<http://us.lrd./_ylc=X3oDMTJtbW9wcHNsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSW\ QDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNicmFuZARzdGltZQMxMjU1OD\ UyMDg2;_ylg=1/SIG=11314uv3k/**http%3A//brand./forgood> > > Get inspired > > by a good cause. > Y! Toolbar > > Get it Free!<http://us.lrd./_ylc=X3oDMTJvcjUwMDNmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwS\ WQDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawN0b29sYmFyBHN0aW1lAzEyN\ TU4NTIwODY-;_ylg=1/SIG=11c6dvmk9/**http%3A//toolbar./%3F.cpdl=ygrps> > > easy 1-click access > > to your groups. > > > Start a group</start;_ylc=X3oDMTJvMWl2ZTBqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzM\ EZ3JwSWQDOTQ5NTk3NwRncnBzcElkAzE3MDUwNjA4MTQEc2VjA25jbW9kBHNsawNncm91cHMyBHN0aW1\ lAzEyNTU4NTIwODY-> > > in 3 easy steps. > > Connect with others. > . > > > -- When one pill of the great elixir forms in the furnace, The embryonic immortal in the room dances three leaps. The four signs and five energies all combine harmoniously, The nine-restoration and seven-reversion complete the work cycle. The radiant form of the moon appears from the hut, The shining light illumines the universe. " The Book of Balance and Harmony " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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