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male urinary obstruction from blood stasis and without damp heat

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Dear Colleagues,

 

 I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a

severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome.  Though  he has difficulty walking, he

has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily.  When I started treating

him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be

expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating

him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with

acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . 

The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and

toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy.    The sores have now

healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so.  His

proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak.  None of his pulses

give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above

is background to my actual question:

 

His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon urination. 

In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even then only a few

drop come out.  It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it day and night,

every half hour or so.   But wait, before you jump on the prostatitis and damp

heat bandwagon,  first, as I mentioned above neither his pulses nor tongue

reflect that at all.  Second, he saw his urologist yesterday, who upon

examination and testing said that there is no evidence of infection, and though,

his prostate is marginally enlarged, it is consistant with someone his age, and

certainly contributes little to his current condition.  Also, there is no

urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be helpful at all.  The current

condition,  he said,  was clearly the result of scar tissue and stricture, the

result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra.  He is open

to herbs

and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood

stasis,  while continuing to warm and open the channels,  boost Kidney Yang and 

nourish Kidney Jing.  One other unpleasant side effect:  When he bears down too

hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates.

   

The benefit of your experience would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi

 

I hope to give a small contribution to your case, but understand this is quite

complicated from the Western perspective (I am also an MD), and really quite

interesting. From a Western perspective, having discounted prostate and bladder

causes, we are left with a Urethritis, irritated urethra of unclear etiology.

Does he have arthritis or other joint problems? Any eye problems?. At any rate

other Western causes are likely difficult to treat.

 

From the TCM perspective, the symptoms certainly seem to point to DH in the

Bladder, which you have appropriately challenged by your exam, or Heat in the

SI/?heart channels. Any other SI symptoms?. Any trouble sleeping/etc?. I'm

not an A + herbs practitioner, but from the acupuncture aspect, would certainly

include SI points such as SI 3 and ST 37, along w the usual (REN 3,4, possibly

even REN 1 if you are feeling brave, Ht 7 or even 8, LI 11 for heat).

 

Hope I've added something.

 

Chicoliv

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>  

> Dear Colleagues,

>

>  I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a

severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome.  Though  he has difficulty walking, he

has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily.  When I started treating

him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be

expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating

him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with

acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . 

The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and

toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy.    The sores have now

healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so.  His

proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak.  None of his pulses

give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above

> is background to my actual question:

>

> His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon

urination.  In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even

then only a few drop come out.  It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it

day and night, every half hour or so.   But wait, before you jump on the

prostatitis and damp heat bandwagon,  first, as I mentioned above neither his

pulses nor tongue reflect that at all.  Second, he saw his urologist

yesterday, who upon examination and testing said that there is no evidence of

infection, and though, his prostate is marginally enlarged, it is consistant

with someone his age, and certainly contributes little to his current

condition.  Also, there is no urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be

helpful at all.  The current condition,  he said,  was clearly the result of

scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis

and urethra.  He is open to herbs

> and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood

stasis,  while continuing to warm and open the channels,  boost Kidney Yang and 

nourish Kidney Jing.  One other unpleasant side effect:  When he bears down too

hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates.

>    

> The benefit of your experience would be appreciated.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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See below

 

 

 

________________________________

 

chicoliv <chicoliv

Chinese Medicine

Sat, October 17, 2009 11:27:56 PM

Re: male urinary obstruction from blood stasis and without damp

heat

 

Hi

 

I hope to give a small contribution to your case, but understand this is quite

complicated from the Western perspective (I am also an MD), and really quite

interesting. From a Western perspective, having discounted prostate and bladder

causes, we are left with a Urethritis, irritated urethra of unclear etiology.

Does he have arthritis or other joint problems? Any eye problems?

No, just the asthenia as a sequela to the GBS 5 years ago.

From the TCM perspective, the symptoms certainly seem to point to DH in the

Bladder, which you have appropriately challenged by your exam, or Heat in the

SI/?heart channels.

No,  his issues are primarily Kidney.  Of course, the relationship between

Kidney and both Heart and UB are obvious, but here, the primary problem is

mechanical--a physical obstruction.  He does very well with acupuncture, but

remember, as I mentioned, we are dealing with urethritis resulting from old scar

tissue. Also, as I have mentioned, clearly this patient has no issues with damp

heat.  Though he loves the treatments, and during treatments, has no urgency,

within a few hours, the pattern of frequency and pain returns.

Any other SI symptoms?. Any trouble sleeping/etc? .

Were it not for the urgency and pain waking him up, his sleeping would be fine. 

 I'm not an A + herbs practitioner, but from the acupuncture aspect, would

certainly include SI points such as SI 3 and ST 37, along w the usual (REN 3,4,

possibly even REN 1 if you are feeling brave, Ht 7 or even 8, LI 11 for heat).

 

Most of the point you suggest are logical, and I have needled them, but this

patient just doesn't have the patience or time to rely on an acupuncture

protocol exclusively, for treatment on a weekly basis.  That's why I am looking

for feedback for an herbal formula

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda frischman

<@.. .> wrote:

>  

> Dear Colleagues,

>

>  I have a very athletic patient in his 50s, who 5 years ago came down with a

severe case of Guillain-Barre syndrome.  Though  he has difficulty walking, he

has built himself back up by swimming an hour daily.  When I started treating

him about a month ago, both proximal pulses were empty, and slow but as would be

expected, the distal pulses on the right wrist are robust. I have been treating

him with a combination of You Gui wan and Xiao Huo Luo Dan, along with

acupuncture and heat (a combination of infrared heat and moxa, alternatingly) . 

The first condition that I treated him for was ulcerated sores or his feet and

toes with numbness, similar to diabetics with neuropathy.    The sores have now

healed completely, and the extremities though still cold are less so.  His

proximal pulses are now thready and a little slow and weak.  None of his pulses

give any indication of a slippery or rapid quality. All the above

> is background to my actual question:

>

> His chief complaint is urinary obstruction and unrelenting pain upon

urination.  In order to urinate he has to gently massage his penis, and even

then only a few drop come out.  It is very painful, and he is afflicted by it

day and night, every half hour or so.   But wait, before you jump on the

prostatitis and damp heat bandwagon,  first, as I mentioned above neither his

pulses nor tongue reflect that at all.  Second, he saw his urologist

yesterday, who upon examination and testing said that there is no evidence of

infection, and though, his prostate is marginall y enlarged, it is consistant

with someone his age, and certainly contributes little to his current

condition.  Also, there is no urinary retention, and so a catheter would not be

helpful at all.  The current condition,  he said,  was clearly the result of

scar tissue and stricture, the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis

and urethra.  He is open to herbs

> and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate blood

stasis,  while continuing to warm and open the channels,  boost Kidney Yang and 

nourish Kidney Jing.  One other unpleasant side effect:  When he bears down too

hard trying to urinate, he involuntarily defecates.

>    

> The benefit of your experience would be appreciated.

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

>

>

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Hi Yehuda,

I have no experience but your post really grabbed my interest, thought i'd

throw out some ideas for brainstorming?

 

1) How about trying proteolytic enzymes like Serrapeptase (and maybe

Nattokinase) to break up the scar tissue? Yun Nan Bai Yao?

 

2) The Yan De-Xin " Aging and Blood Stasis " (published by blue poppy) is a

nice little book about the role of blood stasis in a variety of common

geriatric and chronic degenerative internal medicine conditions. I am away

from the office, but if you have access to that book, it would likely

provide some inspiration on how to modify your base herbal fx to include

blood mover ingredients?

 

3) on itmonline.org, Subhuti Dharmananda has an article on chronic

Interstitial Cystitis (which, although it mostly affects women, is

essentially the situation of difficult painful urination where infectious

etiology has been ruled out, and KD def plus Blood Stasis is often involved.

so in some ways similar to your case?). There's a discussion of starting

with Ba Zheng San as a base fx, removing the major damp and heat reducing

herbs, and then adding/emphasizing the use of blood movers. Perhaps a

similar strategy would be helpful here?

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/cystitis.htm

 

4) Alternatively, would this Wu Bi Shan Yao Wan fit your patient's base

pattern, from which you can modify?

http://www.tcmpage.com/hpurinary_infect.html

 

5) now going way out on a limb -- Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan we use of female

patients with fibroids. But when you consider the ingredients/architecture

of that fx, would it not be worth considering, combine it with

cystitis/urethritis herbs and constitutional herbs for your case?

 

For such a tricky case with no clear answers, I find it helpful to bring

together the various herbal options, put on patient's lower abdomen (or

whatever the affected bodypart), and then check the pulses to see if pulse

pattern changes. A type of kineisiology testing which I learned from a good

friend/colleague, and has proven especially valuable for the difficult or

confusing cases... something to consider? When I do this in my practice,

patients who are sensitive to energies will tell me one formula feels

especially good to their body, and their feedback is generally consistent

with information i get via muscle kineisiology or pulse testing.

 

Not sure if it helps, but some ideas to toss into the mix. Good luck, pls

keep us posted!

 

~edith

 

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Doctoral Fellow

www.DanTianWellness.com

Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

 

 

On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 12:47 AM, wrote:

 

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , yehuda frischman

> >

>

 

 

 

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Hi Yehuda,

 

Yehuda wrote:

" The current condition, he said, was clearly the result of scar tissue and

stricture,

the result of the GBS from 5 years ago in the penis and urethra.

> and clearly, what I need to prepare is a formula that will invigorate

blood stasis,

while continuing to warm and open the channels, boost Kidney Yang and

nourish Kidney Jing "

 

Kokko:

We talked about these kinds of issues in the Jin Gui class with Arnaud

Versluys..

 

Just some ideas...

In chapter 6 of the Jin gui: Blood Impediment disease (Xue bi bing)

Treatment.. " In Blood Obstruction, when yin and yang are both faint and both

faint pulse on cun and guan,

with slight tightness in the chi, the exterior symptoms lack sensation, as

if in Wind Obstruction,

and Huang qi gui zhi wu wu tang governs. "

 

Huang qi, Shao yao (can use either one or both), Gui zhi, Sheng jiang, Da

zao

 

Also, in Chapter 13: Dribbling Urination Disease (Xiao bian lin li bing)

this might look like prostatitis or BPH or small UB stones...presentation

 

Treatment:

A. For inhibited urination, there is water qi (shui qi) and if the person

is thirsty,

Gua lou qu mai wan governs.. Gua lou gen (Tian hua fen), Fu ling, Shan yao,

Fu zi, Qu mai

B. For inhibited urination, Pu hui san (charred Pu huang, Hua shi)

Hua shi bai yu san (Hua shi, Luan fa (burned human hair), Bai yu (white

fish),

Fu ling rong yan tang (Fu ling, Bai zhu, Rong yan (kind of salt)

all govern equally.

C. For a floating pulse with fever, when there is thirst with a desire to

drink water,

and inhibited urination, Zhu ling tang governs.

 

For your patient's constitution,

Shen qi wan (Jin gui shen qi wan) might be added to one of the formulas

above.

Shen qi wan tonifies yin, yang and ultimately qi.

It has diuretics and blood moving herbs in it (mu dan pi and gui zhi... by

promoting HT yang)

The small dosage of Fu zi is the yang within the yin to produce the Qi.

 

For instance, Shen qi wan + Pu hui san (10 herbs total).

without charring the Pu huang.

Sheng di, Shan yao, Shan zhu yu, Fu ling, Ze xie, Mu dan pi, Gui zhi, Fu zi,

Pu huang, Hua shi

 

Finally, what about Tao he cheng qi tang modified...

Tao ren, Gui zhi, Da huang, Mang xiao, Gan cao

to move blood in the lower jiao with the Tao ren, Gui zhi and Da huang (not

as a purgative)

and to break up accumulations with the salty Mang xiao....

Tao he cheng qi tang belongs to the Taiyang Fu conformation (UB organ) with

blood stasis

 

Maybe.. Shen qi wan + Tao ren, Da huang and Mang xiao?

 

Best of luck,

K

 

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