The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

February 5, 2010

From Nourishingdestiny.com

http://nourishingdestiny.com/discussions/2011?page=3

The relationship between the liver and the spleen determines the openness of the

center. The liver will strongly influence the openness of the diaphragm, the

embodied " wall " between heaven and earth. I wrote a lot about wood earth

dynamics in Clinical Practice.

The heart/kidney axis is the straight line at the center of the circle

representing the absolute unity of heaven and earth. It's the perspective of

consciousness itself on incarnation. It's a physiological metaphor for

nonduality.

We can expand this to Fire, Metal, Water (3) and we get the triangle in the

character ming & #21629; meaning " destiny " . That triangle is imaged in the

formula Sheng Mai San Having 3 ingredients. Schizandra to astringe, to hold in

place, the " vessel " of the lung,kidney, and heart. Ophiopogon to circulate qi

(chongqi & #27798; & #27683; that unifies heaven and earth. Notice that this chong

is a homophone with the name of liver-3 meaning " thoroughfare " & #34909;) and

Ginseng to fill the void with qi.

Wood and Earth represent the position of humanity standing on earth and aspiring

to heaven. The degree to which we are fighting for life on our terms as opposed

to being surrendered to a recognition of something higher is mirrored in the

tightness of the diaphragm. This is treated largely through wood and earth:

Lv-3, GB-34, Lv-13 (spleen mu), Lv-14 (liver mu), GB-24, CV-15, HP-6, BL-17,18.

When the diaphragm is tight/closed all the 12 channels that pass through it in

hand/foot pairs suffer. This is why at the beginning of treatment I often focus

on (1) Stabilizing the pulse (Sheng Mai San figures prominently) and (2) opening

the diaphragm. Opening the diaphragm helps to reestablish communication between

the Ht and Ki by creating space around our experience and allowing room for an

impersonal and absolute perspective.

February 5, 2010

Lonny, most patients come in with their diaphragms tightly wrapped up. We

can see this because of the way they breathe, through their chest, not

through their belly (hara). The acupuncture rx looks like it will certainly

open up the diaphragm.

My question is about Sheng mai san.... traditionally, a Chai hu formula

would be used according to kampo when the subcostal/ diaphragm region is

tight/tender upon palpation. Sheng mai san doesn't have a lot of Qi moving

in it, unless we qualify Wu wei zi as a Qi moving herb because of it's

internally astringent quality. Formulas like Si ni san and Xiao chai hu

tang come more to mind with the diaphragm tightness or wood overacting on

earth pattern. Sheng mai san looks like it would be especially beneficial

for connecting the HT/KD axis, with Mai men dong on top, Ren shen in the

middle and Wu wei zi on the bottom. From your experience of using this

formula in these circumstances, do you use another formula first for opening

the diaphragm and then use Sheng mai san to connect the HT/KD axis? or

does Sheng mai san take care of both actions in one movement?

Thanks,

K

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Lonny <Revolution wrote:

>

> From Nourishingdestiny.com

>

> http://nourishingdestiny.com/discussions/2011?page=3

>

> The relationship between the liver and the spleen determines the openness

> of the center. The liver will strongly influence the openness of the

> diaphragm, the embodied " wall " between heaven and earth. I wrote a lot about

> wood earth dynamics in Clinical Practice.

>

> The heart/kidney axis is the straight line at the center of the circle

> representing the absolute unity of heaven and earth. It's the perspective of

> consciousness itself on incarnation. It's a physiological metaphor for

> nonduality.

>

> We can expand this to Fire, Metal, Water (3) and we get the triangle in the

> character ming & #21629; meaning " destiny " . That triangle is imaged in the

> formula Sheng Mai San Having 3 ingredients. Schizandra to astringe, to hold

> in place, the " vessel " of the lung,kidney, and heart. Ophiopogon to

> circulate qi (chongqi & #27798; & #27683; that unifies heaven and earth. Notice

> that this chong is a homophone with the name of liver-3 meaning

> " thoroughfare " & #34909;) and Ginseng to fill the void with qi.

>

> Wood and Earth represent the position of humanity standing on earth and

> aspiring to heaven. The degree to which we are fighting for life on our

> terms as opposed to being surrendered to a recognition of something higher

> is mirrored in the tightness of the diaphragm. This is treated largely

> through wood and earth:

>

> Lv-3, GB-34, Lv-13 (spleen mu), Lv-14 (liver mu), GB-24, CV-15, HP-6,

> BL-17,18.

>

> When the diaphragm is tight/closed all the 12 channels that pass through it

> in hand/foot pairs suffer. This is why at the beginning of treatment I often

> focus on (1) Stabilizing the pulse (Sheng Mai San figures prominently) and

> (2) opening the diaphragm. Opening the diaphragm helps to reestablish

> communication between the Ht and Ki by creating space around our experience

> and allowing room for an impersonal and absolute perspective.

>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

February 5, 2010

Hi John,

Yes, the issue with the diaphragm is prevalent. As you say, Sheng mai

addresses the heart/kidney axis. TO open the diaphragm specifically one would

use Ban Xia Hu Pu Tang. Please note that the dose of each is 1-2 caps daily and

no more. Shengmai is moistening and Ban Xia a bit drying so they balance well.

Please note that I have seen this treatment alone in one week help many people

get off of meds for anxiety or depression. It's very good for panic attacks and

sometimes even one cap of Ban Xia can turn the whole thing around when there's

weakness at CV-15 to CV-17.

February 5, 2010

Lonny, thanks for the explanation... I'll try it out. It's interesting to

think that the Nei jing / Ling shu says that a superior physician treats the

patient's spirit first and diagnoses through looking at the shen. The Shen

nong ben cao jing clearly reflects this in its descriptions of the herbs.

So, my question is what happened to the investigation of the " shen " of the

herbs from between the Han dynasty to today? What historical factors in

China created the conditions where the " shen " of herbs and acupuncture

points became secondary to the physical manifestations of using them? We

talk about the capitalist and communist material dialectical systems which

squashed the conversation of " spirituality " in medicine. Aside from Ge Hong

and Sun Si Miao for instance, there has been very little spoken about the

" spirit " of medicine, at least published and still extant. In the 20th

century, there have been movements, such as the 5E Worsley school,

Shen-Hammer pulse diagnosis and Daoist teachers such as Jeffrey Yuen. I

think these have all been influential in the way you practice. So, how

come there wasn't an academic systematic progression investigating the

" shen " of points and herbs up until now? or was there?

K

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Lonny <Revolution wrote:

>

> Hi John,

>

> Yes, the issue with the diaphragm is prevalent. As you say, Sheng mai

> addresses the heart/kidney axis. TO open the diaphragm specifically one

> would use Ban Xia Hu Pu Tang. Please note that the dose of each is 1-2 caps

> daily and no more. Shengmai is moistening and Ban Xia a bit drying so they

> balance well. Please note that I have seen this treatment alone in one week

> help many people get off of meds for anxiety or depression. It's very good

> for panic attacks and sometimes even one cap of Ban Xia can turn the whole

> thing around when there's weakness at CV-15 to CV-17.

>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

February 5, 2010

John,

You know, I think the average destiny of the person in pre-modern China was

to die of war or disease in their 30's. One has to survive to evolve and I

understand why the emphasis in such a culture would have been survival. Ge Hong,

in his Nei Pien quotes the opening paragraph of the Shen Nong Ben Cao on the

hierarchical importance of medicines that fulfill Destiny and laments that

" these words from the highest sages now fall on deaf ears " . That was circa

200-300 ce! Of course, Daoist have always been a bit morbidly fascinated with

the past in lamenting the " good old days " as in the opening paragraphs of the

Nei Jing as well where the yellow emperor laments that " people no longer comply

with the laws of yin and yang and, instead, indulge in too much music, sex, and

liquor. "

Many of the traditions you point to as embracing " spirit " were very influenced

by the humanistic psychological movement of the 60's and 70's. A movement that

only became possible when the survival needs of a large segment of the

population were met and a middle class had formed in the modern era and then

flourished in the postmodern era.

In my own teaching I have moved beyond interest in a psychological perspective

which I understand to exist only in the world of ego and have embraced rather a

philosophical perspective focused entirely on the primacy of spirit. Of course,

what this means and how it is expressed will look quite different in a

postmodern, global centric culture than in the animistic and mythic culture in

which the classics were written.

Warm regards, Lonny

February 5, 2010

Let me add that I think the substantial physiology of spirit is to be found in

the Dao Cang. That which I'm most familiar with is in:

1. The method of holding the three ones: Anderson

2. Pai Wen Pien

3. The works of Liu Yi Ming.

February 5, 2010

Hi John:

Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate Shen Nongs Ben Cao,

some think Tao Hong actually was one of the first to coin that term, has

spiritual terms in his herbal book, later they got striped out. Interesting

things is there are no channel or organ connections of the herbs in his book,

which is a main text, so after him that knowledge was added. Blue Poppy has a

translation.

Tao Hong was a taoist, played a major in the development of Shang Qing taoist,

which seems to come from the lineage of Ge Hong, they were Nei gong practioners,

alchemists and has this in their medicine.

regards,

david

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Lonny, most patients come in with their diaphragms tightly wrapped up. We

> can see this because of the way they breathe, through their chest, not

> through their belly (hara). The acupuncture rx looks like it will certainly

> open up the diaphragm.

> My question is about Sheng mai san.... traditionally, a Chai hu formula

> would be used according to kampo when the subcostal/ diaphragm region is

> tight/tender upon palpation. Sheng mai san doesn't have a lot of Qi moving

> in it, unless we qualify Wu wei zi as a Qi moving herb because of it's

> internally astringent quality. Formulas like Si ni san and Xiao chai hu

> tang come more to mind with the diaphragm tightness or wood overacting on

> earth pattern. Sheng mai san looks like it would be especially beneficial

> for connecting the HT/KD axis, with Mai men dong on top, Ren shen in the

> middle and Wu wei zi on the bottom. From your experience of using this

> formula in these circumstances, do you use another formula first for opening

> the diaphragm and then use Sheng mai san to connect the HT/KD axis? or

> does Sheng mai san take care of both actions in one movement?

>

> Thanks,

> K

>

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Lonny <Revolution wrote:

>

> >

> > From Nourishingdestiny.com

> >

> > http://nourishingdestiny.com/discussions/2011?page=3

> >

> > The relationship between the liver and the spleen determines the openness

> > of the center. The liver will strongly influence the openness of the

> > diaphragm, the embodied " wall " between heaven and earth. I wrote a lot about

> > wood earth dynamics in Clinical Practice.

> >

> > The heart/kidney axis is the straight line at the center of the circle

> > representing the absolute unity of heaven and earth. It's the perspective of

> > consciousness itself on incarnation. It's a physiological metaphor for

> > nonduality.

> >

> > We can expand this to Fire, Metal, Water (3) and we get the triangle in the

> > character ming & #21629; meaning " destiny " . That triangle is imaged in the

> > formula Sheng Mai San Having 3 ingredients. Schizandra to astringe, to hold

> > in place, the " vessel " of the lung,kidney, and heart. Ophiopogon to

> > circulate qi (chongqi & #27798; & #27683; that unifies heaven and earth. Notice

> > that this chong is a homophone with the name of liver-3 meaning

> > " thoroughfare " & #34909;) and Ginseng to fill the void with qi.

> >

> > Wood and Earth represent the position of humanity standing on earth and

> > aspiring to heaven. The degree to which we are fighting for life on our

> > terms as opposed to being surrendered to a recognition of something higher

> > is mirrored in the tightness of the diaphragm. This is treated largely

> > through wood and earth:

> >

> > Lv-3, GB-34, Lv-13 (spleen mu), Lv-14 (liver mu), GB-24, CV-15, HP-6,

> > BL-17,18.

> >

> > When the diaphragm is tight/closed all the 12 channels that pass through it

> > in hand/foot pairs suffer. This is why at the beginning of treatment I often

> > focus on (1) Stabilizing the pulse (Sheng Mai San figures prominently) and

> > (2) opening the diaphragm. Opening the diaphragm helps to reestablish

> > communication between the Ht and Ki by creating space around our experience

> > and allowing room for an impersonal and absolute perspective.

> >

>

> --

>

> ""

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

February 6, 2010

Hi David and all

David:

Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate Shen

Nongs Ben Cao

Stephen:

Did I misunderstand?

Did you mean that Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing predated Tao Hong Jing?

Isn't it that Tao Hongjing updated and expanded Shen Nong Ben Cao

Jing?

This was a Han Dynasty text and Tao Hongjing is estimated to have

lived 452-536 CE

his edition had red and black ink to identify the parts he had

added

I believe that the Tang Ye Jing was contemporary to the Shen Nong

Ben Cao Jing - both were utilized by Zhang Zhongjing to develop

the Shang Han Za Bing Lun. All of which predated Tao Hongjing.

Those interested in SNBCJ can find a useful resource in Sabine

Wilms' excellent work on:

Bei Ji Qian Jin Yao Fang ~ Sun Si Miao's " Essential Prescriptions

worth 1000 in Gold " . Appendix B has nearly 90 pages of

translation of SNBCJ. It includes a short but clear discussion of

how the top " heavenly " level of medicinals were to nourish life,

the middle " humanity " level were to nourish human nature and the

lower " earthly " level were to treat disease.

Also would appreciate clarification from Lonny

Lonny:

This is why at the beginning of treatment I often focus on (1)

Stabilizing the pulse (Sheng Mai San figures prominently) and (2)

opening the diaphragm.

Stephen:

This sounds like a set protocol, is that correct? -or- Are there

specific pulse images that you look for that indicate that Sheng

Mai San is appropriate for that patient?

thanks for the clarification in advance

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

February 6, 2010

Hugo, I don't think that Lonny was saying that our human ancestors were

physically weaker. 3000 years ago is like a drop in the bucket of our

physical evolution. My grandfather was stronger than my father who was

stronger than me. They could carry 100 lb rice bags on each shoulder up

hills for hours. They were simpler and they needed to be physically

stronger. But, I hope that I'm a little more conscious on a macro-level,

because that's what they would hope for in our collective vision. Today, we

have ecological and social issues that could not be addressed even 100 years

ago, but must be addressed for the sake of our planet's survival. My

grandfather may have had more integrity and authentic purpose than myself,

but he never travelled farther than the Yellow sea. So, today we are

absolutely more globally conscious than our ancestors.

I don't think we're even smarter than our ancestors. My grandfather could

memorize stories after hearing them once, tie a sailor's knot after seeing

it one time, remember how to get back home after traveling hundreds of miles

without a map, recite histories by heart. 1000 years ago, in Asia, you had

to memorize entire sutras and classics to pass medical and official exams.

Today, we can't do simple math without our iphones.

There have always been avatars, sages, buddhas and prophets who have been

exemplary and ahead of their " time " . But, that is not representative of

the entire population. Even though we still have slavery, war and genocide

on the planet, we've got to believe that things are getting better. Just

60 years ago, a black man in this country could not sit in the same seat as

a person with less melanin. In China, even a hundred years ago, how many

doctors were women? It took a lot of sacrifice to get to this point, a lot

of sacrifice from our ancestors.

What responsibilities do we have for our descendants?

K

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi all and Lonny:

>

> --Lonny-

>

> You know, I think the average destiny of the person in pre-modern China was

> to die of war or disease in their 30's.

> ---

>

> If you could bother to provide us with a reference?

>

> --Lonny-

>

> That was circa 200-300 ce! Of course, Daoist have always been a bit

> morbidly fascinated with the past in lamenting the " good old days " as in the

> opening paragraphs of the Nei Jing as well where the yellow emperor laments

> that " people no longer comply with the laws of yin and yang and, instead,

> indulge in too much music, sex, and liquor. "

> ---

>

> Morbidly according to you. Astonishingly (to you), the most recent

> anthropological works show that pre-historic *humans* were far superior

> physical specimens to what we have today. Our elite would barely compete.

> You are definitely up the wrong tree dude.

> The critical mass of the evidence has breached popular consciousness and

> there's even a book about it. " Manthropology " - you might do well to give

> that book a read.

>

> From said book:

> " We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were

> in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't

> developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes,

> doesn't come close to replicating that. We wouldn't want to go back to the

> brutality of those days but there are some things we would do well to profit

> from. "

>

> Note that it is " brutality " to *us* because of our sagging muscles,

> weakened bones, non-existent stamina, and dulled spirits. I am sure our

> ancestors would have used the terms " tough and invigorating " for the most

> part. We'll go back to our PSPs and diabetes, though, thank you every much.

> Who needs the " brutality " we had in the past.

>

> Anyway, it seems like the Daoists were right. Imagine that.

>

> --Lonny-

> ...the humanistic psychological movement of the 60's and 70's. A movement

> that only became possible when the survival needs of a large segment of the

> population were met and a middle class had formed in the modern era and then

> flourished in the postmodern era.

> ---

>

> I urge caution. This historical revisionism is bordering on offensive. I've

> run your colour commentary by a couple of friends who are first nations, and

> they find your speculation (for lack of a better word) to be a deftly

> concealed justification for modernity at the expense of other ways of

> existing. It's the usual, " the savages had it bad " argument. Very very poor

> form.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

February 6, 2010

Hi John, I apologise, my points were clear. You either need to reread my post

with less defensiveness or reread Lonny's post with less attachment.

Sorry, I did enjoy your post otherwise.

In disagreement,

Hugo

On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 00:07 EST wrote:

>Hugo, I don't think that Lonny was saying that our human ancestors were

>physically weaker. 3000 years ago is like a drop in the bucket of our

>physical evolution. My grandfather was stronger than my father who was

>stronger than me. They could carry 100 lb rice bags on each shoulder up

>hills for hours. They were simpler and they needed to be physically

>stronger. But, I hope that I'm a little more conscious on a macro-level,

>because that's what they would hope for in our collective vision. Today, we

>have ecological and social issues that could not be addressed even 100 years

>ago, but must be addressed for the sake of our planet's survival. My

>grandfather may have had more integrity and authentic purpose than myself,

>but he never travelled farther than the Yellow sea. So, today we are

>absolutely more globally conscious than our ancestors.

>I don't think we're even smarter than our ancestors. My grandfather could

>memorize stories after hearing them once, tie a sailor's knot after seeing

>it one time, remember how to get back home after traveling hundreds of miles

>without a map, recite histories by heart. 1000 years ago, in Asia, you had

>to memorize entire sutras and classics to pass medical and official exams.

>Today, we can't do simple math without our iphones.

>There have always been avatars, sages, buddhas and prophets who have been

>exemplary and ahead of their " time " . But, that is not representative of

>the entire population. Even though we still have slavery, war and genocide

>on the planet, we've got to believe that things are getting better. Just

>60 years ago, a black man in this country could not sit in the same seat as

>a person with less melanin. In China, even a hundred years ago, how many

>doctors were women? It took a lot of sacrifice to get to this point, a lot

>of sacrifice from our ancestors.

>What responsibilities do we have for our descendants?

>

>K

>

>On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

>>

>> Hi all and Lonny:

>>

>> --Lonny-

>>

>> You know, I think the average destiny of the person in pre-modern China was

>> to die of war or disease in their 30's.

>> ---

>>

>> If you could bother to provide us with a reference?

>>

>> --Lonny-

>>

>> That was circa 200-300 ce! Of course, Daoist have always been a bit

>> morbidly fascinated with the past in lamenting the " good old days " as in the

>> opening paragraphs of the Nei Jing as well where the yellow emperor laments

>> that " people no longer comply with the laws of yin and yang and, instead,

>> indulge in too much music, sex, and liquor. "

>> ---

>>

>> Morbidly according to you. Astonishingly (to you), the most recent

>> anthropological works show that pre-historic *humans* were far superior

>> physical specimens to what we have today. Our elite would barely compete.

>> You are definitely up the wrong tree dude.

>> The critical mass of the evidence has breached popular consciousness and

>> there's even a book about it. " Manthropology " - you might do well to give

>> that book a read.

>>

>> From said book:

>> " We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were

>> in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't

>> developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes,

>> doesn't come close to replicating that. We wouldn't want to go back to the

>> brutality of those days but there are some things we would do well to profit

>> from. "

>>

>> Note that it is " brutality " to *us* because of our sagging muscles,

>> weakened bones, non-existent stamina, and dulled spirits. I am sure our

>> ancestors would have used the terms " tough and invigorating " for the most

>> part. We'll go back to our PSPs and diabetes, though, thank you every much.

>> Who needs the " brutality " we had in the past.

>>

>> Anyway, it seems like the Daoists were right. Imagine that.

>>

>> --Lonny-

>> ...the humanistic psychological movement of the 60's and 70's. A movement

>> that only became possible when the survival needs of a large segment of the

>> population were met and a middle class had formed in the modern era and then

>> flourished in the postmodern era.

>> ---

>>

>> I urge caution. This historical revisionism is bordering on offensive. I've

>> run your colour commentary by a couple of friends who are first nations, and

>> they find your speculation (for lack of a better word) to be a deftly

>> concealed justification for modernity at the expense of other ways of

>> existing. It's the usual, " the savages had it bad " argument. Very very poor

>> form.

>>

>> Hugo

>>

>> ________________________________

>> Hugo Ramiro

>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

>> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>>

February 6, 2010

Hi John, I apologise, my points were clear. You either need to reread my post

with less defensiveness or reread Lonny's post with less attachment.

Sorry, I did enjoy your post otherwise.

In disagreement,

Hugo

February 6, 2010

Hugo, I reread your post and believe that my last message was a decent reply

to your rebuttal of Lonny's. I'm not defensive, but I am attached to what I

believe in, just as you are. So, in the spirit of learning from each other,

we shouldn't make ad hominem attacks, but carry on dharma battle with these

words we're borrowing from our teachers, our intuitions and our own

investigations in life. Isn't that what these forums are for? What we

don't need are personal judgement calls, because it distracts us from the

discussion. You wrote, " You either need to reread my post with less

defensiveness or reread Lonny's post with less attachment. "

So, let's carry on the discussion...

Hugo wrote:

I urge caution. This historical revisionism is bordering on offensive. I've

run your colour commentary by a couple of friends who are first nations, and

they find your speculation (for lack of a better word) to be a deftly

concealed justification for modernity at the expense of other ways of

existing. It's the usual, " the savages had it bad " argument. Very very poor

form.

Hugo, I think that this is a complex discussion laden with many

sensitivities and speculations from several perspectives. First of all, we

are over-generalizing to say that every person or group today has it better

(resources, happiness, spiritual freedom, social justice) than their " group "

did a hundred or five hundred or two thousand years ago. But, we can't

believe that everything was better off back in the good old days.... As an

example, the Lakota people, who I've hung around a little bit are really

serious about their spirituality (at least the ones who participate in the

traditional ways). For most of them, they say they would rather be living

in the scenario of pre-colonization, when their peoples were free to roam

(without horses, because horses came from the Europeans...) on the plains

and get this.... colonize other tribes as well. That's why the Lakota are

still standing, because they had the man-power to fight off and negotiate

with the other colonizers. It's not because their prayers were more

powerful than the tribes lost in memory. The elders I have spoken with

don't disregard this part of history and we can't romanticize the " good old

days " without forgetting that we're all humans trying to figure it all out.

Another example of a pre/trans fallacy

http://www.praetrans.com/en/ptf.htmlis thinking that the first nations

people were all ecologically conscious.

There is a lot of evidence now that the Great Plains are just that, plain,

because of serious and intense fire-clearing of the forests in order for the

sacred buffalo to be able to roam freely (not to build houses and furniture

and fax paper for suburban Americans) but same narcissistic concept.

Another example is what had happened in Australia, where the aboriginal

tribes over-killed the large animals, which is why the kangaroo is a zoo

creature and the koala bear is still hanging around after millennia of

evolution, not having large predators to kill it. The list goes on and

on... the problem is human ego, narcissism, unconscious and dangerously

conscious desires at the expense of the integrity of the whole. That's why

it's crucial that we see the past for what it was, today for what it is and

tomorrow for what our clearest intentions can create and are creating.

Respectfully,

K

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 9:07 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

> Hugo, I don't think that Lonny was saying that our human ancestors were

> physically weaker. 3000 years ago is like a drop in the bucket of our

> physical evolution. My grandfather was stronger than my father who was

> stronger than me. They could carry 100 lb rice bags on each shoulder up

> hills for hours. They were simpler and they needed to be physically

> stronger. But, I hope that I'm a little more conscious on a macro-level,

> because that's what they would hope for in our collective vision. Today, we

> have ecological and social issues that could not be addressed even 100 years

> ago, but must be addressed for the sake of our planet's survival. My

> grandfather may have had more integrity and authentic purpose than myself,

> but he never travelled farther than the Yellow sea. So, today we are

> absolutely more globally conscious than our ancestors.

> I don't think we're even smarter than our ancestors. My grandfather could

> memorize stories after hearing them once, tie a sailor's knot after seeing

> it one time, remember how to get back home after traveling hundreds of miles

> without a map, recite histories by heart. 1000 years ago, in Asia, you had

> to memorize entire sutras and classics to pass medical and official exams.

> Today, we can't do simple math without our iphones.

> There have always been avatars, sages, buddhas and prophets who have been

> exemplary and ahead of their " time " . But, that is not representative of

> the entire population. Even though we still have slavery, war and genocide

> on the planet, we've got to believe that things are getting better. Just

> 60 years ago, a black man in this country could not sit in the same seat as

> a person with less melanin. In China, even a hundred years ago, how many

> doctors were women? It took a lot of sacrifice to get to this point, a lot

> of sacrifice from our ancestors.

> What responsibilities do we have for our descendants?

>

> K

>

> On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

>>

>> Hi all and Lonny:

>>

>> --Lonny-

>>

>> You know, I think the average destiny of the person in pre-modern China

>> was to die of war or disease in their 30's.

>> ---

>>

>> If you could bother to provide us with a reference?

>>

>> --Lonny-

>>

>> That was circa 200-300 ce! Of course, Daoist have always been a bit

>> morbidly fascinated with the past in lamenting the " good old days " as in the

>> opening paragraphs of the Nei Jing as well where the yellow emperor laments

>> that " people no longer comply with the laws of yin and yang and, instead,

>> indulge in too much music, sex, and liquor. "

>> ---

>>

>> Morbidly according to you. Astonishingly (to you), the most recent

>> anthropological works show that pre-historic *humans* were far superior

>> physical specimens to what we have today. Our elite would barely compete.

>> You are definitely up the wrong tree dude.

>> The critical mass of the evidence has breached popular consciousness and

>> there's even a book about it. " Manthropology " - you might do well to give

>> that book a read.

>>

>> From said book:

>> " We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people

>> were in the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't

>> developed. Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes,

>> doesn't come close to replicating that. We wouldn't want to go back to the

>> brutality of those days but there are some things we would do well to profit

>> from. "

>>

>> Note that it is " brutality " to *us* because of our sagging muscles,

>> weakened bones, non-existent stamina, and dulled spirits. I am sure our

>> ancestors would have used the terms " tough and invigorating " for the most

>> part. We'll go back to our PSPs and diabetes, though, thank you every much.

>> Who needs the " brutality " we had in the past.

>>

>> Anyway, it seems like the Daoists were right. Imagine that.

>>

>> --Lonny-

>> ...the humanistic psychological movement of the 60's and 70's. A movement

>> that only became possible when the survival needs of a large segment of the

>> population were met and a middle class had formed in the modern era and then

>> flourished in the postmodern era.

>> ---

>>

>> I urge caution. This historical revisionism is bordering on offensive.

>> I've run your colour commentary by a couple of friends who are first

>> nations, and they find your speculation (for lack of a better word) to be a

>> deftly concealed justification for modernity at the expense of other ways of

>> existing. It's the usual, " the savages had it bad " argument. Very very poor

>> form.

>>

>> Hugo

>>

>> ________________________________

>> Hugo Ramiro

>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

>> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>>

February 6, 2010

Hi John, I really don't appreciate your implication that I am engaging in ad

hominems, especially while Lonny goes free. Everything I say is going to be for

or against some person. Sometimes these opinions will be formed more

diplomatically, and sometimes less so. Let's not make this about me, but rather

about what Lonny originally stated.

We could easily say that *he* made " ad hominems " against entire peoples. I'd

like to see his reference for people generally only making it to 30 for example.

Another would be support regarding his disparagement of taoists. I'm taoist, and

so is my teacher. We don't exist in the past (except in Lonny's mind). I am

still waiting on these points, and you don't touch on these either.

I also don't need you to lecture me on modern people's nascent understanding of

the complexities of " ancient ages " . I have never been part of this culture's

underbelly (the romanticised new age), thankfully, so I don't need you to set me

right, or further confuse the forum on the issue. I identify as half spaniard

and half mapuche, I try to straddle these two cultures, consider myself

torontonian more than canadian, and have adopted large aspects of the chinese

culture as well. Nowhere in there is the notion of a romantic Indian. Thanks.

and indigenous peoples in general do not need to be rescued by

the west despite their imperfections.

Let's deal with Lonny's points, or not go here at all.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 6 February, 2010 10:42:34

Re: The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram