The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

February 6, 2010

Hi all and Lonny:

--Lonny-

You know, I think the average destiny of the person in pre-modern China was to

die of war or disease in their 30's.

---

If you could bother to provide us with a reference?

--Lonny-

That was circa 200-300 ce! Of course, Daoist have always been a bit morbidly

fascinated with the past in lamenting the " good old days " as in the opening

paragraphs of the Nei Jing as well where the yellow emperor laments that " people

no longer comply with the laws of yin and yang and, instead, indulge in too much

music, sex, and liquor. "

---

Morbidly according to you. Astonishingly (to you), the most recent

anthropological works show that pre-historic *humans* were far superior physical

specimens to what we have today. Our elite would barely compete. You are

definitely up the wrong tree dude.

The critical mass of the evidence has breached popular consciousness and

there's even a book about it. " Manthropology " - you might do well to give that

book a read.

From said book:

" We are simply not exposed to the same loads or challenges that people were in

the ancient past and even in the recent past so our bodies haven't developed.

Even the level of training that we do, our elite athletes, doesn't come close to

replicating that. We wouldn't want to go back to the brutality of those days but

there are some things we would do well to profit from. "

Note that it is " brutality " to *us* because of our sagging muscles, weakened

bones, non-existent stamina, and dulled spirits. I am sure our ancestors would

have used the terms " tough and invigorating " for the most part. We'll go back to

our PSPs and diabetes, though, thank you every much. Who needs the " brutality "

we had in the past.

Anyway, it seems like the Daoists were right. Imagine that.

--Lonny-

....the humanistic psychological movement of the 60's and 70's. A movement that

only became possible when the survival needs of a large segment of the

population were met and a middle class had formed in the modern era and then

flourished in the postmodern era.

---

I urge caution. This historical revisionism is bordering on offensive. I've run

your colour commentary by a couple of friends who are first nations, and they

find your speculation (for lack of a better word) to be a deftly concealed

justification for modernity at the expense of other ways of existing. It's the

usual, " the savages had it bad " argument. Very very poor form.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

February 6, 2010

Is this a private fight, or can anyone join?

I love the passion, but these are only opinions. We get our opinions as a

product of who we are and where we came from to get here.

Hugo -

I've gone back and read some of Lonny's postings. He clearly states that he is a

product of " postmodern " something-or-other. Like most " postmodern " people, he

thinks his life is better than " pre-modern " people. It's a continuance of " life

in the state of nature was solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short... " or

something like that.

Thanks for reminding us that this opinion is not universal... and sort of flies

in the face of Chinese tradition and the Nei Jing.

John -

Ad hominem? I felt that Hugo was dealing with the premise that modern people are

superior, modern knowledge is superior, etc. Maybe I missed something...

Joe says:

Sure, we know how to drive and text...and " they " didn't. but we fly through the

world at a mile a minute in air-conditioned cars, dodging traffic and texting

and " they " walked and experienced weather and smells.

" They " killed - we send poor kids to do it, or pick meat up at the store.

" They " were lucky to live to 50 - we are lucky to live to 80

Maybe - just maybe

The point of the tradition is more about an experience of being alive

in which case " postmodern " people shrink before the ancestors.

Joe

February 7, 2010

Hi David

True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

it would have to be a Han text

Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

more

I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

respect your opinion

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

February 7, 2010

Lonny, thanks for providing the reference, it highlights the errors you make.

Life expectancy as skewed by infant mortality is not an accurate measure of

life length. This is a common error in perception of so called " life-expectancy "

measures. The PRC was founded in 1911, for god's sake, hardly antiquity. Urban

China was heavily impacted by western habits and ideals by then. Further, the

country had been in a state of chaos for decades at the founding of the PRC.

Recall the opium wars and their effects. Measurements were also only made of

people near dense population centres - this was not a representative study of

old china. Statistics like this make the PRC look good. If you want

representative information, there are various anthropological sources examining

traditional cultures which paint a very different picture from the one that

serves your points, Lonny. The most relevant one was conducted by Campbell and

his team over, I think, three decades, and is the largest and highest quality

nutritional study conducted in western

medicine. And it was found that the traditional dietary practices of the

Chinese accounted for shockingly low rates of disease, and a longevity that

parallels " ours " but with greater quality. Recall that this is the traditional

diet in people who receive little to no western intervention. The parsing of the

statistics found little to no correlates between what little western medical

intervention there was and disease / lifespan. It is interesting to note, that

nowhere in this research is mentioned. It's like it doesn't

exist. So kudos to Campbell and his team, and a fat thumbs down too. In the full

Roman sense.

To clear up another misconception: infectious / parasitic diseases, which are

viewed as the scourge of humanity and one of the reasons the " savages had it so

bad " , have -*throughout history*- been associated with the following:

Poverty

Famine

Unclean water

Poor sanitation

High concentration of people

High concentration of and contact with vermin or other animals

(and *first contact* between europeans and others - I have not come across

information regarding high-impact diseases#)

*These* are the pre-requisites for pandemics, *not* " living in the past " .

I was in fact having a drunken discussion (I wasn't drunk) with an

epidemiologist last night, and she went on about how epidemics couldn't be

stopped, even with vaccination, and how in fact in fact epidemics are

potentially *more* dangerous now with the way in which people and goods move

across the globe, and the way in which vaccination might potentiate mutation. So

maybe we are worse off in some ways?

Anyway, the shortest lived people anywhere, when infant mortality was corrected

for, were the old-time Inuit, and they tended to last on average about 45 years

- and they live in the harshest environment on the planet! BTW about a quarter

of their population lived past 60. There is even a possibility that they lived

longer than this prior to Russian contact since contact brought diseases with it

for which the Inuit were not equipped (Veniaminov, in Cancer: Disease of

Civilisation?: An anthropological and historical study). I am not sure though,

since the diseases in question may have only affected infant mortality.

An idea (that is backed by pretty much all the data you need): modernity is

slowly taking its toll. We entered these past three centuries with somewhat

strongish bodies (compared to these days anyway), and we have slowly been losing

our strength. So now, because of interventions that can force us to live, we

have a relatively long lifespan across the board, but with low quality. A

greater and greater proportion of the population is starting to lose their mind

at around 60 or 70. Do senile dementias change our definition of what it means

to be alive and human? The trend is worsening, as I think we all know and have

seen. Our genetics, *earned* by our ancestors, are on a slow path of

degradation, thanks to modern culture, where we have computers and frozen cake,

where we can expect to reliably live to 70 years of age, and with more and more

reliability develop senile dementias earlier and earlier.

In any case, if historically we have a Chinese population that never made it to

much past 30, does this mean that our subtle medicine was created and developed

by a bunch of 30 year olds? Because I know that the old doctors tended to last

between 60 to 100. Was it their medicine that allowed them to last that long,

because it if it wasn't then what was it? Perhaps patients who also followed the

medicine well could also last similarly?

I am not a luddite, I enjoy technology, I see it as a tool, like any other,

which we must use responsibly from the vantage of physical, mental and spiritual

health.

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

1. Life expectancy was only 36.5 years in 1949 when the People's Republic of

China was founded.

http://www.china. org.cn/health/ 2008-01/07/ content_1238345. htm

February 7, 2010

An error of omission, all:

-Hugo--

Poverty

Famine

Unclean water

Poor sanitation

High concentration of people

High concentration of and contact with vermin or other animals

(and *first contact* between europeans and others - I have not come across

information regarding high-impact diseases#)

-Hugo--

That last line should say " I have not come across information regarding

high-impact infectious diseases at times other than those of european

exploration - does anyone have leads? Chinese exploration, for example, was not

followed by large scale die-outs in visited civilisations, from what we know.

For example, west-coast First Nations have oral teachings regarding the

emissaries of China many centuries ago, but no oral teachings about infection

sweeping through during or after the visits.)

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

February 7, 2010

Maybe " War " should be added too, if the time evaluated included War time it has

a big influence on the statistics.

regards,

david

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> An error of omission, all:

>

> -Hugo--

> Poverty

> Famine

> Unclean water

> Poor sanitation

> High concentration of people

> High concentration of and contact with vermin or other animals

> (and *first contact* between europeans and others - I have not come across

information regarding high-impact diseases#)

> -Hugo--

>

> That last line should say " I have not come across information regarding

high-impact infectious diseases at times other than those of european

exploration - does anyone have leads? Chinese exploration, for example, was not

followed by large scale die-outs in visited civilisations, from what we know.

For example, west-coast First Nations have oral teachings regarding the

emissaries of China many centuries ago, but no oral teachings about infection

sweeping through during or after the visits.)

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

February 8, 2010

Hi David, absolutely, war should be on that list.

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001

Chinese Medicine

Sun, 7 February, 2010 14:17:42

Re: The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

Maybe " War " should be added too, if the time evaluated included War time it has

a big influence on the statistics.

regards,

david

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..

..> wrote:

>

> An error of omission, all:

>

> -Hugo--

> Poverty

> Famine

> Unclean water

> Poor sanitation

> High concentration of people

> High concentration of and contact with vermin or other animals

February 8, 2010

Hugo wrote: That last line should say " I have not come across information

regarding high-impact infectious diseases at times other than those of

european exploration - does anyone have leads? Chinese exploration, for

example, was not followed by large scale die-outs in visited civilisations,

from what we know. For example, west-coast First Nations have oral teachings

regarding the emissaries of China many centuries ago, but no oral teachings

about infection sweeping through during or after the visits.)

Hugo, this is an interesting discussion. There's a book called " Plagues and

People " by William McNeill, which goes into the details of all of this.

Also, the bubonic " black plague " , the most notorious of them all, may have

come from China/ Mongolia to begin with:

No one knows exactly why, but in the late 1320s or early 1330s, bubonic

plague broke out in China's Gobi desert. Spread by flea-infested rats, it

didn't take long for the disease to reach Europe. In October of 1347, a

Genoese ship fleet returning from the Black Sea -- a key trade link with

China -- landed in Messina, Sicily. Most of those on board were already

dead, and the ships were ordered out of harbor. But it was too late. The

town was soon overcome with pestilence, and from there, the disease quickly

spread north along trade routes -- through Italy and across the European

continent. By the following spring, it had reached as far north as England,

and within five years, it had killed 25 million people -- one-third of the

European population.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_plague/index.html

K

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:18 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi David, absolutely, war should be on that list.

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> ________________________________

> singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001<singlewhip2001%40>

> >

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Sun, 7 February, 2010 14:17:42

>

> Re: The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

>

> Maybe " War " should be added too, if the time evaluated included War time it

> has a big influence on the statistics.

>

> regards,

> david

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor@.. .> wrote:

> >

> > An error of omission, all:

> >

> > -Hugo--

> > Poverty

> > Famine

> > Unclean water

> > Poor sanitation

> > High concentration of people

> > High concentration of and contact with vermin or other animals

>

February 8, 2010

Hi John, the black plague is a good example. But it killed many Chinese as

well, so it is not the one-sided infection that I am describing, that seems to

occur after first contact of europeans with others. Does " plagues and people "

mention contact between China and America and resultant plagues?

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

February 9, 2010

Hugo,

This specific topic is not discussed in the book, but half of the book is

dedicated to Asia's participation in plagues throughout history. The

appendix in the back of the book is a reprint of Dr. Joseph Cha's study of

Epidemics in China and lists epidemics in China from 243 BCE to 1911 CE.

The line-by-line list extends to 10 pages in the book.

Every sentence of the book is an " ah ha " kind of moment... packed with

insights into our world history and evolution as a species. The conquerors/

colonists of the New world did not receive any new disease, except some

believe that a strong strain of " syphilis " which possibly came from the New

world and was carried back to China for instance, as the only entirely new

disease to pop up in China after the New world colonization period up until

the 20th century. Epidemiological evidence shows that there were no major

plague breakouts in the New world, but people died from famine and crop

failure in epidemic numbers (Aztec) pg. 177 Some later scholars, believe

that there might have been a TB infection predating Columbus and a

hemorrhagic fever prevalent in drought years called cocolizti. It so

happened that the indigenous population might have been hit with this fever

at the same time as they were confronted with smallpox, typhus, influenza,

measles, malaria, mumps, cholera, bubonic plague, yellow fever, pertussis,

TB etc... wiping out over 90% of the indigenous populations.

There weren't the kind of human-to-human plagues that the Old World had

seen, because domestication of large pack animals was secluded to the high

mountains in small numbers (wild llamas and alpacas), not in the heavily

populated-densely packed scenario of horses and cattle in the Old World.

This is also mentioned in " Guns, Germs and Steel " by Jared Diamond.

So, we can infer that if the Chinese definitely came to the New World

predating Columbus, that they did not bring on the wide-sweeping epidemics

that later colonists would bring and possibly in some instances,

deliberately poison the indigenous population with as a form of genocidal

biological weaponry. For instance, possible well-water contamination and

the famous Fort Pitt smallpox blanket gift exchange are controversial.

K

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

> Hi John, the black plague is a good example. But it killed many Chinese as

> well, so it is not the one-sided infection that I am describing, that seems

> to occur after first contact of europeans with others. Does " plagues and

> people " mention contact between China and America and resultant plagues?

>

> Thanks,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

February 10, 2010

Just to be clear, there were no major plagues in the Americas predating

Columbus, according to epidemiological research.

The only epidemic that the conquerors received might have been a strong

strain of syphilis from the native peoples.

However, the Chinese had experienced almost every disease that Euro-Asia

could develop over millennia of close quartering of cattle, goats, horses,

pigs and other domestic animals. If the Chinese had really visited the

Americas many times since the Shang dynasty, it would be logical that this

would translate to infected populations in the Americas, as well.

Is their any solid evidence that this had occurred? Gavin Menzies' book

" 1421 " has been debunked by many scholars, including the top historians in

China.

K

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:40 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

> Hugo,

> This specific topic is not discussed in the book, but half of the book is

> dedicated to Asia's participation in plagues throughout history. The

> appendix in the back of the book is a reprint of Dr. Joseph Cha's study of

> Epidemics in China and lists epidemics in China from 243 BCE to 1911 CE.

> The line-by-line list extends to 10 pages in the book.

>

> Every sentence of the book is an " ah ha " kind of moment... packed with

> insights into our world history and evolution as a species. The conquerors/

> colonists of the New world did not receive any new disease, except some

> believe that a strong strain of " syphilis " which possibly came from the New

> world and was carried back to China for instance, as the only entirely new

> disease to pop up in China after the New world colonization period up until

> the 20th century. Epidemiological evidence shows that there were no major

> plague breakouts in the New world, but people died from famine and crop

> failure in epidemic numbers (Aztec) pg. 177 Some later scholars, believe

> that there might have been a TB infection predating Columbus and a

> hemorrhagic fever prevalent in drought years called cocolizti. It so

> happened that the indigenous population might have been hit with this fever

> at the same time as they were confronted with smallpox, typhus, influenza,

> measles, malaria, mumps, cholera, bubonic plague, yellow fever, pertussis,

> TB etc... wiping out over 90% of the indigenous populations.

>

> There weren't the kind of human-to-human plagues that the Old World had

> seen, because domestication of large pack animals was secluded to the high

> mountains in small numbers (wild llamas and alpacas), not in the heavily

> populated-densely packed scenario of horses and cattle in the Old World.

> This is also mentioned in " Guns, Germs and Steel " by Jared Diamond.

> So, we can infer that if the Chinese definitely came to the New World

> predating Columbus, that they did not bring on the wide-sweeping epidemics

> that later colonists would bring and possibly in some instances,

> deliberately poison the indigenous population with as a form of genocidal

> biological weaponry. For instance, possible well-water contamination and

> the famous Fort Pitt smallpox blanket gift exchange are controversial.

>

> K

>

> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

>

>>

>> Hi John, the black plague is a good example. But it killed many Chinese as

>> well, so it is not the one-sided infection that I am describing, that seems

>> to occur after first contact of europeans with others. Does " plagues and

>> people " mention contact between China and America and resultant plagues?

>>

>> Thanks,

>> Hugo

>>

>> ________________________________

>> Hugo Ramiro

>> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

>> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>>

February 10, 2010

Hi Stephen and David,

here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui medical

manuscripts

trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

" Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the Shennong

bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the drugs in

MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu. Even

with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that MSI.E

bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted several

centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

K

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> Hi David

> True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> it would have to be a Han text

> Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> more

>

> I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> respect your opinion

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

>

February 10, 2010

Just ran across an article today on the Bencao ji zhu and want to share it.

There are some interesting photos of the document and commentary.

http://mayanagi.hum.ibaraki.ac.jp/paper01/Bencao%20jizhu.html

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:22:12 -0800

> Re: The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

>

> Hi Stephen and David,

> here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui medical

> manuscripts

> trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

>

> " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the Shennong

> bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the drugs in

> MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu. Even

> with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that MSI.E

> bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted several

> centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

>

> K

>

> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> >

> > Hi David

> > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > it would have to be a Han text

> > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > more

> >

> > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > respect your opinion

> >

> > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> >

February 11, 2010

Hi John:

I suggest you read the book, as I have and see the indications of the herbs and

formulas, then lets chat.

david

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Hi Stephen and David,

> here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui medical

> manuscripts

> trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

>

> " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the Shennong

> bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the drugs in

> MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu. Even

> with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that MSI.E

> bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted several

> centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

>

> K

>

> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> >

> > Hi David

> > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > it would have to be a Han text

> > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > more

> >

> > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > respect your opinion

> >

> > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> >

February 11, 2010

David, which book are you talking about that you're assuming that I haven't

read...

Donald Harper's, the Shen nong ben cao jing or the Wu shi er bing fang?

You wrote, " Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate Shen

Nongs Ben Cao "

This is the topic in discussion.

Take care,

K

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:03 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> Hi John:

>

> I suggest you read the book, as I have and see the indications of the herbs

> and formulas, then lets chat.

>

> david

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Hi Stephen and David,

> > here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui

> medical

> > manuscripts

> > trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

> >

> > " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> > Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the Shennong

> > bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the drugs

> in

> > MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu. Even

> > with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that MSI.E

> > bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted

> several

> > centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> >

> > >

> > > Hi David

> > > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > > it would have to be a Han text

> > > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > > more

> > >

> > > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > > respect your opinion

> > >

> > > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > >

> > > --

> > > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> > >

February 11, 2010

HI John:

Donald's book contains the some herbs and the Wu Shi er bing fang, its in the Ma

Wangdui texts, which Donald tranlsated.

Cause you are a great guy, below are some samples of the info in the book, the

book is believed to be from the Warring period of the Zhou Dynasty. This info is

from a class I teach on Medical History.

*Ma Wang Dui Texts

Silk manuscripts found from burial sites of the royal family of the Han Dynasty

Source Text:

Early Chinese Medical Literature, The MAWANGDUI MEDICAL MANUSCRIPTS

Translation and Study by Donald Harper

Written in the late 3rd and 2nd BC, these texts were excavated by archaeologists

in 1973 from the tomb of a Han Dynasty Prince in Hunan Province.

Buried in 168 B.C., these texts pre-date the Nei Jing.

Includes herbal knowledge and channels.

Magical and demonological practices were a large part of medicine at this time,

the Shang and Zhou cultures were integral to the theories and experiences in

this text.

Wu Shi Er Bing Fang from the Ma Wangdui Texts

" Prescriptions for Fifty-Two Diseases (Herbs) "

1065 BC-771 BC, Zhou Dynasty

The first written record about herbal medicine was compiled during the Zhou

Dynasty. This text was discovered in 1973 during the excavation of Ma Wang Dui

tomb at Changsha, Hunan province.

The text does not contain taste, temperature, meridians, etc., it is not nearly

as comprehensive as current texts, below are some examples.

Wu Shi Er Bing Fang

Examples of Herbs

Index of Materia Medica, pages 476-510

Mugmurt, Artemsia

Alkaline soil

Red Ant

Bamboo

Banxia, pinellia

Bark

Bulging Fungus

Chicken Blood, Heart, Feathers, Breast

Cinnabar

Beef

Deer

Deer Horn

Dog bile, feces, fur, heart

Fuling, Poria

Gecko

Hou Pu, magnolia

Shao Yao, peony

Spider Web

Wasp

Wu Shi Er Bing Fang

Recipes for the Fifty-Two Aliments

Herbal Formulas

Pages 221-304

Selected Formulas

" Various Wounds "

Lard (animal fat) and gancao (licorice), two portion of each, gui (cinnamon),

jiang (ginger), jiao (zanthoxylum), Crush one ball in a cup of liquor and drink

it. Drink it once daily.

Page 222-223

To stop blood from coming out, incinerate scalp hair and press in on the wound.

Page 225

Seizure Sickness

First have ready a white chicken and dog feces. When it occurs use a knife to

cut open his head from the crown to the nape. Then moisten that with the dog

feces and halve the chicken. Cover the place that was moistened with dog feces.

Stop after three days. After stopping, cook the chicken that was used to cover

and eat it.

Page 246

Hemorrhoids

Take equal amounts of the fur of five kinds of wild animals whose flesh is

eaten. Incinerate and smith. Combine them, stirring. Every dawn before eating

take three large three-figured pinches and blend in one cup of warm liquor.

Drink it. At sunset drink it again before eating, following the previous

procedure. Continue ingesting the medicine for twenty days. Even an old ailment

invariably. While ingesting the medicine it is prohibited to eat pork and fresh

fish.

Page 270

Gu (bugs that contain demons)

Incinerate a bat using jing (vitex) kindling, then feed it to the accursed

person.

Page 301

Incinerate a woman's menstrual cloth, and have the person drink it.

Page 301

We have come a long way???????????????????????????

February 11, 2010

Hi John:

What I am proposing is there were many ben cao/herbal information, not one

unified record with many attributes of the herbs, from many areas and lineages

and traditions, there was no Shen Nong Ben Cao. Tao Hongjing studied many of the

available ben cao, much information and collected the info, organized it, its

good to see the way the herbs are organized in his text, its not by zangfu

syndromes, but in another way, which is very interesting, anyway, its believed

by some Tao Hongjing made the first association that Shen Nong gave a verbal

transmission of herbal information, the Shen Nong Ben Cao begins to become a

common term at this time and beyond.

Maybe in the same way the early acupuncture was attributed to Huang Di, even

though that is highly questionable, especially since the exact things occur from

the channels/moxa in the Ma Wangdui texts and the Ling Shu of the Han dynasty,

there is no acupuncture in the Ma Wangdui, only moxa and cauterization. We

should all deeply study the history, it will change the way we view how to

practice and open our options.

If we look at the information for the herbs in the Ma Wangdui medical texts and

in Tao Hongjnig's ben cao it is so different, one can look at this as the

information grew over time, what we see in Tao Hongjing and the now Shen Nong

Ben Cao did not exist in any historical records of the Zhou Dynasty. It is like

what we see from Tao Hingjing to the Tang Dynasty to Li Shen Zhen in the Ming

dynasty.

regards,

david

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> David, which book are you talking about that you're assuming that I haven't

> read...

> Donald Harper's, the Shen nong ben cao jing or the Wu shi er bing fang?

>

> You wrote, " Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate Shen

> Nongs Ben Cao "

> This is the topic in discussion.

>

> Take care,

> K

>

> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:03 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi John:

> >

> > I suggest you read the book, as I have and see the indications of the herbs

> > and formulas, then lets chat.

> >

> > david

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Stephen and David,

> > > here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui

> > medical

> > > manuscripts

> > > trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

> > >

> > > " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> > > Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the Shennong

> > > bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the drugs

> > in

> > > MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu. Even

> > > with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that MSI.E

> > > bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted

> > several

> > > centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm@>wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi David

> > > > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > > > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > > > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > > > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > > > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > > > it would have to be a Han text

> > > > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > > > more

> > > >

> > > > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > > > respect your opinion

> > > >

> > > > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> > > >

February 11, 2010

David,

" cause you're a great guy " ... I'd like to thank you for taking your time to

type up the list from D. Harper's book, which I own and have read most parts

of it as well, including the Wu shi er bing fang translation. Yes, we have

come a long way from many of the superstitious decoctions that the pre-Han

Chinese documented in the MaWangDui caves. This could be interesting fodder

for another discussion. Still, we use human hair to stop bleeding, right?

But, making a patient apply dog feces to an open wound or eat incinerated

menstrual cloth can't be considered medicine today.

K

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:53 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> Hi John:

>

> What I am proposing is there were many ben cao/herbal information, not one

> unified record with many attributes of the herbs, from many areas and

> lineages and traditions, there was no Shen Nong Ben Cao. Tao Hongjing

> studied many of the available ben cao, much information and collected the

> info, organized it, its good to see the way the herbs are organized in his

> text, its not by zangfu syndromes, but in another way, which is very

> interesting, anyway, its believed by some Tao Hongjing made the first

> association that Shen Nong gave a verbal transmission of herbal information,

> the Shen Nong Ben Cao begins to become a common term at this time and

> beyond.

>

> Maybe in the same way the early acupuncture was attributed to Huang Di,

> even though that is highly questionable, especially since the exact things

> occur from the channels/moxa in the Ma Wangdui texts and the Ling Shu of the

> Han dynasty, there is no acupuncture in the Ma Wangdui, only moxa and

> cauterization. We should all deeply study the history, it will change the

> way we view how to practice and open our options.

>

> If we look at the information for the herbs in the Ma Wangdui medical texts

> and in Tao Hongjnig's ben cao it is so different, one can look at this as

> the information grew over time, what we see in Tao Hongjing and the now Shen

> Nong Ben Cao did not exist in any historical records of the Zhou Dynasty. It

> is like what we see from Tao Hingjing to the Tang Dynasty to Li Shen Zhen in

> the Ming dynasty.

>

> regards,

>

> david

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > David, which book are you talking about that you're assuming that I

> haven't

> > read...

> > Donald Harper's, the Shen nong ben cao jing or the Wu shi er bing fang?

> >

> > You wrote, " Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate

> Shen

> > Nongs Ben Cao "

> > This is the topic in discussion.

> >

> > Take care,

> > K

> >

> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:03 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001@

> ...>wrote:

>

> >

> > >

> > > Hi John:

> > >

> > > I suggest you read the book, as I have and see the indications of the

> herbs

> > > and formulas, then lets chat.

> > >

> > > david

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>,

>

> > > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Stephen and David,

> > > > here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui

> > > medical

> > > > manuscripts

> > > > trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

> > > >

> > > > " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> > > > Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the

> Shennong

> > > > bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the

> drugs

> > > in

> > > > MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu.

> Even

> > > > with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that

> MSI.E

> > > > bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted

> > > several

> > > > centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

> > > >

> > > > K

> > > >

> > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm@>wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi David

> > > > > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > > > > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > > > > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > > > > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > > > > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > > > > it would have to be a Han text

> > > > > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > > > > more

> > > > >

> > > > > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > > > > respect your opinion

> > > > >

> > > > > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> > > > >

February 11, 2010

Has anyone ever applied miso to a burn or open wound? I have and after the

sting goes away, it heals up nicely. What we might be overlooking with both

miso and dog excrement is the active microbes that are involved with the healing

and not simply a smelly substance. I have no doubt that this issue gets

overlooked a lot, macro versus micro world. CM is a biological medicine and

lets not forget these differing levels of biological organization.

On a similar note, has there been any real published work on the prevalence of

fermented foods/drink in traditional healing practices? These were a part of

each Asian culture that I know of and commonly consumed. I also wonder how many

of us are including this daily item (kimchee, miso, sauerkraut, etc) into our

patient education. Does anyone have some literature about usage of fermented

foods that they provide their patients? If so, would you like to share this?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:10:18 -0800

> Re: The Ht/Ki axis & opening the diaphram

>

> David,

> " cause you're a great guy " ... I'd like to thank you for taking your time to

> type up the list from D. Harper's book, which I own and have read most parts

> of it as well, including the Wu shi er bing fang translation. Yes, we have

> come a long way from many of the superstitious decoctions that the pre-Han

> Chinese documented in the MaWangDui caves. This could be interesting fodder

> for another discussion. Still, we use human hair to stop bleeding, right?

> But, making a patient apply dog feces to an open wound or eat incinerated

> menstrual cloth can't be considered medicine today.

>

> K

>

> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:53 PM, singlewhip2001

<singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> >

> > Hi John:

> >

> > What I am proposing is there were many ben cao/herbal information, not one

> > unified record with many attributes of the herbs, from many areas and

> > lineages and traditions, there was no Shen Nong Ben Cao. Tao Hongjing

> > studied many of the available ben cao, much information and collected the

> > info, organized it, its good to see the way the herbs are organized in his

> > text, its not by zangfu syndromes, but in another way, which is very

> > interesting, anyway, its believed by some Tao Hongjing made the first

> > association that Shen Nong gave a verbal transmission of herbal information,

> > the Shen Nong Ben Cao begins to become a common term at this time and

> > beyond.

> >

> > Maybe in the same way the early acupuncture was attributed to Huang Di,

> > even though that is highly questionable, especially since the exact things

> > occur from the channels/moxa in the Ma Wangdui texts and the Ling Shu of the

> > Han dynasty, there is no acupuncture in the Ma Wangdui, only moxa and

> > cauterization. We should all deeply study the history, it will change the

> > way we view how to practice and open our options.

> >

> > If we look at the information for the herbs in the Ma Wangdui medical texts

> > and in Tao Hongjnig's ben cao it is so different, one can look at this as

> > the information grew over time, what we see in Tao Hongjing and the now Shen

> > Nong Ben Cao did not exist in any historical records of the Zhou Dynasty. It

> > is like what we see from Tao Hingjing to the Tang Dynasty to Li Shen Zhen in

> > the Ming dynasty.

> >

> > regards,

> >

> > david

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > <johnkokko wrote:

> > >

> > > David, which book are you talking about that you're assuming that I

> > haven't

> > > read...

> > > Donald Harper's, the Shen nong ben cao jing or the Wu shi er bing fang?

> > >

> > > You wrote, " Tao Hong's Divine farmers ben cao, which seems to predate

> > Shen

> > > Nongs Ben Cao "

> > > This is the topic in discussion.

> > >

> > > Take care,

> > > K

> > >

> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:03 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001@

> > ...>wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi John:

> > > >

> > > > I suggest you read the book, as I have and see the indications of the

> > herbs

> > > > and formulas, then lets chat.

> > > >

> > > > david

> > > >

> > > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

> >

> > > > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Stephen and David,

> > > > > here's a quote from " Early Chinese medical literature " the Mawangdui

> > > > medical

> > > > > manuscripts

> > > > > trans by Donald Harper pg. 101

> > > > >

> > > > > " Comparing MSI.E (Wushier bing fang = recipes for 52 ailments) to Tao

> > > > > Hongjing's Bencaojing ji zhu (the oldest extant recension of the

> > Shennong

> > > > > bencao jing), Unshuld estimates that slightly more than half of the

> > drugs

> > > > in

> > > > > MSI.E can be correlated with drugs listed in the Bencaojing jizhu.

> > Even

> > > > > with generous margins of error for both figures, it is clear that

> > MSI.E

> > > > > bears witness to an early tradition of materia medica which resulted

> > > > several

> > > > > centuries later in the compilation of the Shennong bencao jing. "

> > > > >

> > > > > K

> > > > >

> > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:36 PM, stephen woodley <learntcm@>wrote:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi David

> > > > > > True, there is a lack of clarity - only legend - even Tao

> > > > > > Hongjing's work was lost and reconstructed, right?

> > > > > > There is plenty of conjecture and opinions vary on the subject,

> > > > > > but certainly we all owe him our gratitude for the work he did.

> > > > > > I am of the school that believes that it predates the SHL. Thus,

> > > > > > it would have to be a Han text

> > > > > > Only some new archeological dig will clear it up - or confuse us

> > > > > > more

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I appreciate your knowledge and contributions to this group and

> > > > > > respect your opinion

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > > > > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > http://www.fastmail.fm - The professional email service

> > > > > >

February 11, 2010

Mike,

I recommend fermented foods in the diet for most of my patients, and miso is

at the very top of the list. I include miso or other fermented foods in my diet

every day, and suggest South River Miso Company in Massachusetts as a great

company to get unpasteurized, high quality product.

Z'ev

On Feb 11, 2010, at 8:31 AM, mike Bowser wrote:

>

> Has anyone ever applied miso to a burn or open wound? I have and after the

sting goes away, it heals up nicely. What we might be overlooking with both miso

and dog excrement is the active microbes that are involved with the healing and

not simply a smelly substance. I have no doubt that this issue gets overlooked a

lot, macro versus micro world. CM is a biological medicine and lets not forget

these differing levels of biological organization.

>

> On a similar note, has there been any real published work on the prevalence of

fermented foods/drink in traditional healing practices? These were a part of

each Asian culture that I know of and commonly consumed. I also wonder how many

of us are including this daily item (kimchee, miso, sauerkraut, etc) into our

patient education. Does anyone have some literature about usage of fermented

foods that they provide their patients? If so, would you like to share this?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

February 11, 2010

Hi John:

Sorry to imply you have not read teh book, I misunderstood. I didnt have to type

the info, just cut and paste.

Below is the table of contents of Tao Hongjings Ben Cao.

Blue Poppy Press has a translation for those that want one.

Divine Farmer's Materia Medica

Tao Hong-jing

Table of Contents

Book One

Preface

Book Two

Jades and Stones: Superior Class

Jades and Stones: Middle Class

Jades and Stones: Inferior Class

Herbs: Superior Class

Herbs: Middle Class

Herbs: Inferior Class

Woods: Superior Class

Woods: Middle Class

Woods: Inferior Class

Book Three

Animals: Superior Class

Animals: Middle Class

Animals: Inferior Class

Fruits and Vegetables: Superior Class

Fruits and Vegetables: Middle Class

Fruits and Vegetables: Inferior Class

Cereals: Superior Class

Cereals: Middle Class

Cereals: Inferior Class

February 11, 2010

Hi John:

I would also say we have come along way from the viewpoint as how the detailed

knowledge of the herbs, the channels, organs, taste, temp, etc. expanded over

time, the detailed knowledge of the herbs we have now did not exist in the Zhou

or Han dynasty.

Tao Hongjing offers us some psycho/emotional/shen aspects of the herbal medicine

that has become lost to the mainstream teachings.

regards,

david

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> David,

> " cause you're a great guy " ... I'd like to thank you for taking your time to

> type up the list from D. Harper's book, which I own and have read most parts

> of it as well, including the Wu shi er bing fang translation. Yes, we have

> come a long way from many of the superstitious decoctions that the pre-Han

> Chinese documented in the MaWangDui caves. This could be interesting fodder

> for another discussion. Still, we use human hair to stop bleeding, right?

> But, making a patient apply dog feces to an open wound or eat incinerated

> menstrual cloth can't be considered medicine today.

>

> K

>

> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:53 PM, singlewhip2001 <singlewhip2001wrote: