Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Any ideas why I would experience itching at night when I take the KPC granule of Tian Wang Bu Xin Tang? Unlike the regular formula it has Du Zhong, Bai Bu, and Shi Chang Pu in it. The regular kind does not cause itching but it also does not help me sleep. I think it is related to the heating component of the Du Zhong--I must have a little windheat trapped in my system. So I am thinking a windheat herb for itching addition might be a good idea. If anyone has an idea of a good herb to add and/or another idea about what is going on let me know. This formula works so well for sleep that I don't want to give it up. Thanks! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Or maybe its the Bai Bu--maybe opening up the lungs with Bai Bu is opening up some underlying wind. Unfortunately part of why I like this formula is that I like how it opens my chest with the Bai Bu. Perhaps adding some Bo He? Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Any ideas why I would experience itching at night when I take the KPC granule of Tian Wang Bu Xin Tang? Unlike the regular formula it has Du Zhong, Bai Bu, and Shi Chang Pu in it. The regular kind does not cause itching but it also does not help me sleep. I think it is related to the heating component of the Du Zhong--I must have a little windheat trapped in my system. So I am thinking a windheat herb for itching addition might be a good idea. If anyone has an idea of a good herb to add and/or another idea about what is going on let me know. This formula works so well for sleep that I don't want to give it up. > > Thanks! > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hey Laura Seems like your body wants warming and opening. Maybe you want to reassess your patterns? If TWBXD unmodified doesn't help, maybe you don't have heart yin xu. Remember the formula guizhi mahuang geban tang? Because yang can't move out, it kind of gets stuck between the skin and muscles and there's itching. Sounds kinda like your itching. Maybe you would respond better to some mild warming based on guizhi tang. depends on the pulse of course just an idea Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Hi Laura, Itch at night ............... at night ( Yin ) is Yin problem, Itch ( yang , heat, toxin ). Yang appears in Yin ............... Yang must be hold ( enchored ) by Yin deep inside at night, but now Yang is floating outside and upward. This movement of Yang outside causing itching or irritation of the skin ( outside, upper part ) ........ Is this Yin too weak to embrace Yang withing????? If numbness ( Qi, moving slowly... ), pain ( Blood, clogs ), weak ( shortness of breath ... ). Itch ( yang, heat, irritable, sleep problem ) + at night ( yin disorder if Yin excess --> cold, no itch , must be Yin def ) => yin def + heat + / - toxin....... Toxin if skin breaks ( eczema or pus, or boils ). If not then , there is no toxin, just Yin def and heat, no blood clogs nor Qi stagnation. The formula is easily formed. This will give you a clue, Laura. Good luck Laura! I myself had had this kind of itch for years, after several years I was infected by staphylococcus I had itch again, but it appears nights and days, every day. It was horrible. However, I had itch free for awhile with different formula, but it took me so long to get rid of it.................. I had tried at leat 4 - 5 treatments ( formulas ) in order to be free from it. --- On Mon, 2/8/10, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Re: Itching at night w/formula Chinese Medicine Monday, February 8, 2010, 5:17 AM  Or maybe its the Bai Bu--maybe opening up the lungs with Bai Bu is opening up some underlying wind. Unfortunately part of why I like this formula is that I like how it opens my chest with the Bai Bu. Perhaps adding some Bo He? Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@. ...> wrote: > > Any ideas why I would experience itching at night when I take the KPC granule of Tian Wang Bu Xin Tang? Unlike the regular formula it has Du Zhong, Bai Bu, and Shi Chang Pu in it. The regular kind does not cause itching but it also does not help me sleep. I think it is related to the heating component of the Du Zhong--I must have a little windheat trapped in my system. So I am thinking a windheat herb for itching addition might be a good idea. If anyone has an idea of a good herb to add and/or another idea about what is going on let me know. This formula works so well for sleep that I don't want to give it up. > > Thanks! > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 I am curious what the source is for this company's modification of tian wang bu xin dan. . On Feb 8, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Nam Nguyen wrote: > Hi Laura, > Itch at night ............... at night ( Yin ) is Yin problem, Itch ( yang , heat, toxin ). Yang appears in Yin ............... Yang must be hold ( enchored ) by Yin deep inside at night, but now Yang is floating outside and upward. This movement of Yang outside causing itching or irritation of the skin ( outside, upper part ) ........ Is this Yin too weak to embrace Yang withing????? If numbness ( Qi, moving slowly... ), pain ( Blood, clogs ), weak ( shortness of breath ... ). > Itch ( yang, heat, irritable, sleep problem ) + at night ( yin disorder if Yin excess --> cold, no itch , must be Yin def ) => yin def + heat + / - toxin....... Toxin if skin breaks ( eczema or pus, or boils ). If not then , there is no toxin, just Yin def and heat, no blood clogs nor Qi stagnation. The formula is easily formed. > > This will give you a clue, Laura. > > Good luck Laura! > > I myself had had this kind of itch for years, after several years I was infected by staphylococcus I had itch again, but it appears nights and days, every day. It was horrible. > However, I had itch free for awhile with different formula, but it took me so long to get rid of it.................. I had tried at leat 4 - 5 treatments ( formulas ) in order to be free from it. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 I don't know. But it sure is a great formula for me. Minus the itching. Helps with mood, sleep, and energy. And some of the best formulas I use are modifications of classic formulas, so I am not concerned if it isn't a classic modification. Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I am curious what the source is for this company's modification of tian wang bu xin dan. . > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 8:06 AM, Nam Nguyen wrote: > > > Hi Laura, > > Itch at night ............... at night ( Yin ) is Yin problem, Itch ( yang , heat, toxin ). Yang appears in Yin ............... Yang must be hold ( enchored ) by Yin deep inside at night, but now Yang is floating outside and upward. This movement of Yang outside causing itching or irritation of the skin ( outside, upper part ) ........ Is this Yin too weak to embrace Yang withing????? If numbness ( Qi, moving slowly... ), pain ( Blood, clogs ), weak ( shortness of breath ... ). > > Itch ( yang, heat, irritable, sleep problem ) + at night ( yin disorder if Yin excess --> cold, no itch , must be Yin def ) => yin def + heat + / - toxin....... Toxin if skin breaks ( eczema or pus, or boils ). If not then , there is no toxin, just Yin def and heat, no blood clogs nor Qi stagnation. The formula is easily formed. > > > > This will give you a clue, Laura. > > > > Good luck Laura! > > > > I myself had had this kind of itch for years, after several years I was infected by staphylococcus I had itch again, but it appears nights and days, every day. It was horrible. > > However, I had itch free for awhile with different formula, but it took me so long to get rid of it.................. I had tried at leat 4 - 5 treatments ( formulas ) in order to be free from it. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Thanks for the ideas. In every other way I do so well with this formula though. I'd rather just modify it a little to make it work. Chinese Medicine , " joemessey " <joe.messey wrote: > > > Hey Laura > > Seems like your body wants warming and opening. > Maybe you want to reassess your patterns? If TWBXD unmodified doesn't help, maybe you don't have heart yin xu. > > Remember the formula guizhi mahuang geban tang? Because yang can't move out, it kind of gets stuck between the skin and muscles and there's itching. Sounds kinda like your itching. > > Maybe you would respond better to some mild warming based on guizhi tang. > > depends on the pulse of course > > just an idea > Joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Thanks for the analysis! I agree--this has to be a heat issue since it shows up at night. I like your thought that since there is no break in the skin it is not a toxin. I was having this issue in the fall and then I got a cold and was on diaphoretics and it went away and then it did not return until I started this formula again. Chinese Medicine , Nam Nguyen <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > Hi Laura, > Itch at night ............... at night ( Yin ) is Yin problem, Itch ( yang , heat, toxin ). Yang appears in Yin ............... Yang must be hold ( enchored ) by Yin deep inside at night, but now Yang is floating outside and upward. This movement of Yang outside causing itching or irritation of the skin ( outside, upper part ) ........ Is this Yin too weak to embrace Yang withing????? If numbness ( Qi, moving slowly... ), pain ( Blood, clogs ), weak ( shortness of breath ... ). > Itch ( yang, heat, irritable, sleep problem ) + at night ( yin disorder if Yin excess --> cold, no itch , must be Yin def ) => yin def + heat + / - toxin....... Toxin if skin breaks ( eczema or pus, or boils ). If not then , there is no toxin, just Yin def and heat, no blood clogs nor Qi stagnation. The formula is easily formed. > > This will give you a clue, Laura. > > Good luck Laura! > > I myself had had this kind of itch for years, after several years I was infected by staphylococcus I had itch again, but it appears nights and days, every day. It was horrible. > However, I had itch free for awhile with different formula, but it took me so long to get rid of it.................. I had tried at leat 4 - 5 treatments ( formulas ) in order to be free from it. > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/8/10, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > heylaurag <heylaurag > Re: Itching at night w/formula > Chinese Medicine > Monday, February 8, 2010, 5:17 AM >  > > > Or maybe its the Bai Bu--maybe opening up the lungs with Bai Bu is opening up some underlying wind. Unfortunately part of why I like this formula is that I like how it opens my chest with the Bai Bu. Perhaps adding some Bo He? > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > Any ideas why I would experience itching at night when I take the KPC granule of Tian Wang Bu Xin Tang? Unlike the regular formula it has Du Zhong, Bai Bu, and Shi Chang Pu in it. The regular kind does not cause itching but it also does not help me sleep. I think it is related to the heating component of the Du Zhong--I must have a little windheat trapped in my system. So I am thinking a windheat herb for itching addition might be a good idea. If anyone has an idea of a good herb to add and/or another idea about what is going on let me know. This formula works so well for sleep that I don't want to give it up. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Laura > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 It is also possible that the large doses of sheng di huang and shu di huang are a problem for you. On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:36 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Thanks for the ideas. In every other way I do so well with this formula though. I'd rather just modify it a little to make it work. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 No, I take them all the time and do well with them. I appreciate the thought though. Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > It is also possible that the large doses of sheng di huang and shu di huang are a problem for you. > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:36 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Thanks for the ideas. In every other way I do so well with this formula though. I'd rather just modify it a little to make it work. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 Wow, really? So you don't modify your formulas unless there is a classic source to back it up? I didn't know that anyone did that. I can tell you that I have a lot of success modifying classic formulas to fit the individual patient. To me, that is the beauty of Chinese medicine--that we can use the principles of our medicine to do that. No disrespect intended--I'm just surprised and have to say that I couldn't treat half of what I successfully treat without going outside that box. But maybe you know more classic modifications than I do so that you are able to get the same if not better results sticking with the classic modifications. Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I think if modifications are arbitrary, not classical, there is a lot more room for side effects or error. In Chinese medicine, there has to be adequate history of use, or use of classical rules of modification, unless there are modern studies to support these modifications. The Chinese do have studies and clinical reports of new formulas and modifications that are available. > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:34 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > I don't know. But it sure is a great formula for me. Minus the itching. Helps with mood, sleep, and energy. And some of the best formulas I use are modifications of classic formulas, so I am not concerned if it isn't a classic modification. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 8, 2010 Report Share Posted February 8, 2010 There are many ways to modify formulas: 1) combining prescriptions 2) classical modifications, such as those listed in the Shang Han Lun or Jin Gui Yao Lue 3) methods of different currents, such as spleen stomach current, nourish yin current, blood stasis current (Wang Qing-ren) 4) empirical modifications. Even empirical modifications are or should be based on classical combinations/dui yao of ingredients. Several companies, I've discovered, add herbs to modify formulas without a clear reason for doing so. Or the modifications may be appropriate for a few patients, but not for a wide variety of patients. That is why I asked you the reason/source for the modified tian wang bu xin dan, a formula that is not usually modified very much. . Of course I modify formulas as needed, but according to strict principles. I do admire Kampo, which doesn't modify formulas much at all. . On Feb 8, 2010, at 2:25 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Wow, really? So you don't modify your formulas unless there is a classic source to back it up? I didn't know that anyone did that. I can tell you that I have a lot of success modifying classic formulas to fit the individual patient. To me, that is the beauty of Chinese medicine--that we can use the principles of our medicine to do that. No disrespect intended--I'm just surprised and have to say that I couldn't treat half of what I successfully treat without going outside that box. But maybe you know more classic modifications than I do so that you are able to get the same if not better results sticking with the classic modifications. > > Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > I think if modifications are arbitrary, not classical, there is a lot more room for side effects or error. In Chinese medicine, there has to be adequate history of use, or use of classical rules of modification, unless there are modern studies to support these modifications. The Chinese do have studies and clinical reports of new formulas and modifications that are available. > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:34 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > I don't know. But it sure is a great formula for me. Minus the itching. Helps with mood, sleep, and energy. And some of the best formulas I use are modifications of classic formulas, so I am not concerned if it isn't a classic modification. > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010  Hi Laura: I have noticed that my best diagnoses are those where I am able to use an unmodified classical formula successfully. In other words, those situation where I have to use my own modifications often (maybe not always) show my confusion with regards to exactly what is going on with the patient - an inability to perceive the root dynamic if you will. Happens to often, if you ask me.  My experience,  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ heylaurag <heylaurag Chinese Medicine Mon, 8 February, 2010 17:25:28 Re: Itching at night w/formula  Wow, really? So you don't modify your formulas unless there is a classic source to back it up? I didn't know that anyone did that. I can tell you that I have a lot of success modifying classic formulas to fit the individual patient. To me, that is the beauty of Chinese medicine--that we can use the principles of our medicine to do that. No disrespect intended--I' m just surprised and have to say that I couldn't treat half of what I successfully treat without going outside that box. But maybe you know more classic modifications than I do so that you are able to get the same if not better results sticking with the classic modifications. Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , <zrosenbe@.. .> wrote: > > I think if modifications are arbitrary, not classical, there is a lot more room for side effects or error. In Chinese medicine, there has to be adequate history of use, or use of classical rules of modification, unless there are modern studies to support these modifications. The Chinese do have studies and clinical reports of new formulas and modifications that are available. > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:34 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > I don't know. But it sure is a great formula for me. Minus the itching. Helps with mood, sleep, and energy. And some of the best formulas I use are modifications of classic formulas, so I am not concerned if it isn't a classic modification. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hey Laura Laura Thanks for the analysis! I agree--this has to be a heat issue since it shows up at night. I like your thought that since there is no break in the skin it is not a toxin. I was having this issue in the fall and then I got a cold and was on diaphoretics and it went away and then it did not return until I started this formula again. Joe: just a last word on this from a different perspective sleep is yang descending into yin weak yang floats and can get " stuck " between skin and muscles and lead to itching - showing up at night when yang is supposed to descend to the interior your cold formula could aggravate yang xu the fact that herbs that " diaphoresed " (which moves qi through this layer) made the problem go away until you started the cold formula again, strongly supports my suspicion anyway, it's just random ideas good luck and hope you get better Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hi Laura - Maybe you are expelling heat from your blood. You case is consistent with healing in terms of this feature of Herring's law of cure: moving from the inside to the outside. Take your pulse and lift through the blood (middle) depth. Does the pulse get wider, slipperier, more urgent? Then it is likely blood heat, and Z'ev is right. I would suggest, however, that you stay the course if these considerations are correct. Warmly, Will Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > No, I take them all the time and do well with them. I appreciate the thought though. > > > Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > It is also possible that the large doses of sheng di huang and shu di huang are a problem for you. > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 1:36 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > > > Thanks for the ideas. In every other way I do so well with this formula though. I'd rather just modify it a little to make it work. > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Interesting ideas--so where would you go from here? If we go with your theory, what would be the treatment protocol? I should add something though--I remember years ago before I ever knew Chinese medicine I was having this same symptom when I went to bed. So although the formula is currently bringing it to the surface, it was already within me. So if yang isn't sinking into yin and is getting stuck between skin and muscles, what is the treatment protocol? One interesting perhaps related detail--I have always needed yang tonics to sleep. Yin tonics alone tend to give me insomnia. So is it that my yang is too deficient to sink? What is the reason that it is getting stuck? Chinese Medicine , " joemessey " <joe.messey wrote: > > > > Hey Laura > > Laura > Thanks for the analysis! I agree--this has to be a heat issue since it shows up at night. I like your thought that since there is no break in the skin it is not a toxin. I was having this issue in the fall and then I got a cold and was on diaphoretics and it went away and then it did not return until I started this formula again. > > Joe: > just a last word on this from a different perspective > sleep is yang descending into yin > weak yang floats and can get " stuck " between skin and muscles and lead to itching - showing up at night when yang is supposed to descend to the interior > your cold formula could aggravate yang xu > > the fact that herbs that " diaphoresed " (which moves qi through this layer) made the problem go away until you started the cold formula again, strongly supports my suspicion > > anyway, it's just random ideas > good luck and hope you get better > > Joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Hi Laura, I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula.  In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen.  One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever.  Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO.    ________________________________ joemessey <joe.messey Chinese Medicine Mon, February 8, 2010 4:56:46 PM Re: Itching at night w/formula  Hey Laura Laura Thanks for the analysis! I agree--this has to be a heat issue since it shows up at night. I like your thought that since there is no break in the skin it is not a toxin. I was having this issue in the fall and then I got a cold and was on diaphoretics and it went away and then it did not return until I started this formula again. Joe: just a last word on this from a different perspective sleep is yang descending into yin weak yang floats and can get " stuck " between skin and muscles and lead to itching - showing up at night when yang is supposed to descend to the interior your cold formula could aggravate yang xu the fact that herbs that " diaphoresed " (which moves qi through this layer) made the problem go away until you started the cold formula again, strongly supports my suspicion anyway, it's just random ideas good luck and hope you get better Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Since I've used Du Zhong a lot I tend to think that its the Bai Bu. But I have used Bai Bu as well. Still, I've not used it very much. I tend to believe that most allergic reactions are actually energetic and can be addressed with the right balancing herb though. But I guess there are times when people genuinely have allergic reactions. Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Hi Laura, > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula.  In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen.  One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever.  Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO. >  > > > >  >  > > > > > ________________________________ > joemessey <joe.messey > Chinese Medicine > Mon, February 8, 2010 4:56:46 PM > Re: Itching at night w/formula > >  > > > Hey Laura > > Laura > Thanks for the analysis! I agree--this has to be a heat issue since it shows up at night. I like your thought that since there is no break in the skin it is not a toxin. I was having this issue in the fall and then I got a cold and was on diaphoretics and it went away and then it did not return until I started this formula again. > > Joe: > just a last word on this from a different perspective > sleep is yang descending into yin > weak yang floats and can get " stuck " between skin and muscles and lead to itching - showing up at night when yang is supposed to descend to the interior > your cold formula could aggravate yang xu > > the fact that herbs that " diaphoresed " (which moves qi through this layer) made the problem go away until you started the cold formula again, strongly supports my suspicion > > anyway, it's just random ideas > good luck and hope you get better > > Joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Yehuda, I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words, 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine? 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction? 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance? For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution. As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and musculo-skeletal balancing methods. On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Hi Laura, > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I'm in absolute agreement with Stephen. As much as I love tian wang bu xin dan when indicated, it tends to be overused. A formula like gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang I find excellent for vacuity vexation/insomnia, especially with palpitations. On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:01 PM, Stephen Bonzak wrote: > According to the Neijing, all pain, sores and itching belong to > imperial fire, or the heart. In my practice, if you are vacuous, then > formulas with guizhi are usually used (guizhi mahuang geban tang, > guizhi er mahuang yi tang, etc). If you are replete, then formulas > with huanglian are usually used (any of the xie xin tangs). After the > it hing stops, then the sleep can be addressed. I like guizhi jia > longgu muli tang for yin and yang vacuity leading to insomnia. > > -Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 hey All Stephen said I like guizhi jia longgu muli tang Joe: I love it!! Laura So is it that my yang is too deficient to sink? What is the reason that it is getting stuck? Joe Yes I think so, weak yang floats, strong yang descends into yin not strong enough to move all the way out and then it gets close to the cold air and has trouble circulating I really like the suggestion Stephen made because it's what I was thinking of. I think that if you try it out, you'll know soon enough. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Z'ev, I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with return shortly to continue this discussion, ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula Yehuda, I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words, 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine? 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction? 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance? For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution. As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and musculo-skeletal balancing methods. On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Hi Laura, > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 Yehuda, Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you read closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor. Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy. I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool for adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the years when judging medicinal substances. Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often lead to confusion or going off on the wrong track. On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Z'ev, > > I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with return shortly to continue this discussion, > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula > > Yehuda, > I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words, > > 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine? > 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction? > 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance? > > For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution. > > As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and musculo-skeletal balancing methods. > > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Hi Laura, > > > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to > > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I don't pretend to know for sure, but I tend to side with Zev on this. I think at least in many if not all cases of " allergies " there is actually an energetic explanation that can be balanced by herbs if we are able to understand what is going on. However, I think it is often not easy to figure out. I've never seen a patient have an " allergic " reaction, but I have seen patients have symptoms that could have been called allergies that disappeared when I addressed the imbalance. In this case, I can tell you that I have on many cases taken every herb in this formula within other formulas and not developed the itchiness. So if anything my current experience backs up the idea that the western idea of allergy does not apply to Chinese herbs. And you never hear of any such thing as an allergy to an herb talked about in the classics, which further backs it up. I've had this belief for years and therefore have been watching for evidence to the contrary all this time and have never found it. As for why one herb in a category might elicite a response while another doesn't I think that's simply because every herb even within the same category has many unique functions from another. Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Z'ev, > > I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with return shortly to continue this discussion, > > > > ________________________________ > <zrosenbe > Chinese Medicine > Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula > > > Yehuda, > I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words, > > 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine? > 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction? > 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance? > > For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution. > > As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and musculo-skeletal balancing methods. > > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > > > Hi Laura, > > > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation. Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to > > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2010 Report Share Posted February 9, 2010 I am intrigued by the idea of trying this formula, but since I am trying to get pregnant Gui Zhi would not be a good idea. I will start experimenting with this formula more though since several people have expressed liking it. So give me an idea of exactly the type of symptoms I should be looking for. Yin and yang deficient insomnia, but what else points in this direction? Chinese Medicine , " joemessey " <joe.messey wrote: > > hey All > > Stephen said > I like guizhi jia longgu muli tang > > Joe: > I love it!! > > Laura > So is it that my yang is too deficient to sink? What is the reason that it is getting stuck? > > Joe > Yes I think so, weak yang floats, strong yang descends into yin > not strong enough to move all the way out and then it gets close to the cold air and has trouble circulating > I really like the suggestion Stephen made because it's what I was thinking of. I think that if you try it out, you'll know soon enough. > > Joe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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