sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has become

much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested, and so I

stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test.

You are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Mon, February 8, 2010 10:10:39 PM

Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

 

Yehuda,

Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you read

closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor.

Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including

incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or

interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical

regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or

preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy.

 

I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool for

adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the

years when judging medicinal substances.

 

Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often

lead to confusion or going off on the wrong track.

 

 

On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by

differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical

properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory

reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is

that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and

the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied

kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a

particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with

return shortly to continue this discussion,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM

> Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

>

> Yehuda,

> I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb,

we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words,

>

> 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine?

> 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction?

> 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance?

>

> For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not

prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution.

>

> As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an

indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing

medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and

musculo-skeletal balancing methods.

>

>

>

> On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Hi Laura,

> >

> > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had,

and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the

ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be

mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy

to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in

the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature

of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a

double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being

weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and

had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you

have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation.

Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to

> > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step

I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda, Z'ev and all:

 

I can see, Yehuda, that you have a great deal of experience dealing with

Chana's " atypical " presentation. I always wonder to myself what the result would

have been if someone like her had received CM from the beginning, without the

injuries and deviations she received " therapeutically " early on in her life. CM

has clear limitations, however, it is difficult to see exactly what those

limitations are when there are such extenuating injuries and deviations present.

I also support the co-optation of biomedicine into CM. The reverse I am not so

much for. The fact that biomedicine has pathologised allergic reactions does not

make them, in fact, pathological reactions. For instance, Laura is experiencing

some heat and itching. Why do we choose the explanation of " allergy " in her

case, versus wind-heat in the muscle layer, or heat due to dampness stagnating?

The " allergy " viewed from this point is a result of - a sign of - a pathology,

and it is not the pathology itself. We could go even furtehr and describe a

body-wide wind-heat rash expression with little to no itching and no fever as a

perfectly non-pathological process - a rash that is in fact necessary in order

to prevent pathology.

 

Some ideas,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

Chinese Medicine

Tue, 9 February, 2010 2:10:57

sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

 

 

Z'ev,

 

We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has become

much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested, and so I

stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test.

You are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

 

 

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

 

 

 

____________ _________ _________ __

<zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

 

Mon, February 8, 2010 10:10:39 PM

Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

 

Yehuda,

Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you read

closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor.

Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including

incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or

interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical

regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or

preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy.

 

I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool for

adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the

years when judging medicinal substances.

 

Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often lead

to confusion or going off on the wrong track.

 

 

On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by

differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical

properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory

reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is

that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and

the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied

kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a

particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with

return shortly to continue this discussion,

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM

> Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

>

> Yehuda,

> I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an herb,

we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other words,

>

> 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine?

> 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction?

> 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance?

>

> For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not

prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution.

>

> As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an

indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing

medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and

musculo-skeletal balancing methods.

>

>

>

> On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Hi Laura,

> >

> > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have had,

and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the

ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be

mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy

to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in

the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature

of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a

double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being

weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and

had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you

have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation.

Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to

> > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first step

I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs IMVHO.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

No argument on the use of other substances such as nutraceuticals when

necessary. I just don't think we need to shoot ourselves in the foot by

concluding 'allergy' unless there is clear criteria and evidence for this.

 

Going back to the original discussion, I made the point that I had never

heard of this particular modification of tian wang bu xin dan, and that the

addition of bai bu, du zhong and shi chang pu made no sense to me. I am still

waiting for someone to explain why this would be a beneficial addition to the

original formula. There are rules of modification, and these additions don't

seem to follow them. I cannot rule out a problem with the formula as designed

with the resulting skin reactivity.

 

Getting back to my responses to you in my last e-mail, I mentioned that

allergy is a very general term, and that you need to both be more specific and

frame it in a Chinese medical understanding. The phenomenon of 'allergy' is

profound in both a biomedical and Chinese medical context, and within our

medical tradition there is a way to understand and reframe this idea, after

deconstructing it. Unfortunately, many allergies to herbs and foods are

misdiagnosed through misunderstanding what is actually going on in the body.

 

A good percentage of Chinese medicinals have some toxicity, which is mitigated

through pao zhi/preparation by cooking, soaking, macerating, etc., dui

yao/proper combining to neutralize toxicity according to the qi qing/seven

relations, and, most important, by matching a prescription to a proper diagnosis

and treatment plan. Even with all of these taken care of, reactions are

possible as the body goes through changes. For example, Liu Li-hong describes

cases of tai yin disease treated with fu zi li zhong tang, where the patient

develops diarrhea after taking the herbs as a result of yang qi being mobilized

to expel damp evils from the yang ming large intestine. This is a desirable and

necessary reaction, described in the tai yin chapter of the Shang Han Lun.

 

One flaw I find with muscle testing, cutaneous injection of allergens, and

other forms of testing allergies is that they use single substances outside the

body without factoring in the effects of digestion, or in the case of Chinese

herbs, dui yao/combination with other medicinals, and cooking the herbs. I've

never injected raw tofu under my skin! Perhaps my skin wouldn't like it Raw

huang qin outside the body is different then after ingestion. Interestingly, in

Tibetan medicine, medicinals are also classed in terms of pre and post-digestive

flavors, they are different substances, really. The strength of a person's

spleen and stomach has a lot to do with reactivity to herbal medicines as well,

and often is the cause of negative reactions. Then one has to consider

ingestion of other herbs, neutraceuticals, drugs, or certain foods that can

interact or cause problems such as skin reactivity. Finally, the source of the

herbs themselves. There have been reported problems with identification,

substitution, poor quality, or lack of proper preparation of Chinese medicinals,

and we must be cautious to insure their proper quality.

 

I want to discuss allergy in terms of the relationship of wei qi/defense qi

and ying qi/construction qi as one possible explanation of some aspect of

allergy, but to do it justice will be a rather long e-mail. I'll save that for

later. .

 

 

 

 

On Feb 8, 2010, at 11:10 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

> kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has become

much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested, and so I

stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test. You

are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Honestly, I usually find that more often than not I can figure out what is going

on from a Chinese medicine perspective and then modify the formula and the

" allergy " symptoms go away. For instance, if you clear wind in a very qi

deficient person they will develope wind symptoms that will not go away until

you tonify their qi enough. Increase the qi tonics and the wind symptoms go

away. But it would be easy to think that they must have an allergy to an herb

when in fact the formula just needed modification.

 

Last night I cleared yin deficient heat more and my itching wasn't a problem. I

was very tired and its possible that I just slept through it though, so we'll

see. But if this turns out well then it is a good example of what we've been

talking about--a symptom at night often speaks to yin deficient heat or blood

heat. Treat that first and then see if the symptom resolves itself.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Yehuda,

> No argument on the use of other substances such as nutraceuticals when

necessary. I just don't think we need to shoot ourselves in the foot by

concluding 'allergy' unless there is clear criteria and evidence for this.

>

> Going back to the original discussion, I made the point that I had never

heard of this particular modification of tian wang bu xin dan, and that the

addition of bai bu, du zhong and shi chang pu made no sense to me. I am still

waiting for someone to explain why this would be a beneficial addition to the

original formula. There are rules of modification, and these additions don't

seem to follow them. I cannot rule out a problem with the formula as designed

with the resulting skin reactivity.

>

> Getting back to my responses to you in my last e-mail, I mentioned that

allergy is a very general term, and that you need to both be more specific and

frame it in a Chinese medical understanding. The phenomenon of 'allergy' is

profound in both a biomedical and Chinese medical context, and within our

medical tradition there is a way to understand and reframe this idea, after

deconstructing it. Unfortunately, many allergies to herbs and foods are

misdiagnosed through misunderstanding what is actually going on in the body.

>

> A good percentage of Chinese medicinals have some toxicity, which is

mitigated through pao zhi/preparation by cooking, soaking, macerating, etc., dui

yao/proper combining to neutralize toxicity according to the qi qing/seven

relations, and, most important, by matching a prescription to a proper diagnosis

and treatment plan. Even with all of these taken care of, reactions are

possible as the body goes through changes. For example, Liu Li-hong describes

cases of tai yin disease treated with fu zi li zhong tang, where the patient

develops diarrhea after taking the herbs as a result of yang qi being mobilized

to expel damp evils from the yang ming large intestine. This is a desirable and

necessary reaction, described in the tai yin chapter of the Shang Han Lun.

>

> One flaw I find with muscle testing, cutaneous injection of allergens, and

other forms of testing allergies is that they use single substances outside the

body without factoring in the effects of digestion, or in the case of Chinese

herbs, dui yao/combination with other medicinals, and cooking the herbs. I've

never injected raw tofu under my skin! Perhaps my skin wouldn't like it Raw

huang qin outside the body is different then after ingestion. Interestingly, in

Tibetan medicine, medicinals are also classed in terms of pre and post-digestive

flavors, they are different substances, really. The strength of a person's

spleen and stomach has a lot to do with reactivity to herbal medicines as well,

and often is the cause of negative reactions. Then one has to consider

ingestion of other herbs, neutraceuticals, drugs, or certain foods that can

interact or cause problems such as skin reactivity. Finally, the source of the

herbs themselves. There have been reported problems with identification,

substitution, poor quality, or lack of proper preparation of Chinese medicinals,

and we must be cautious to insure their proper quality.

>

> I want to discuss allergy in terms of the relationship of wei qi/defense qi

and ying qi/construction qi as one possible explanation of some aspect of

allergy, but to do it justice will be a rather long e-mail. I'll save that for

later. .

>

>

>

>

> On Feb 8, 2010, at 11:10 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

> > kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has

become much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested,

and so I stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test. You

are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Folks,

 

I am not one to generally try to fit TCM into western paradigms. But while I

think we defintiely need to explore deeply the idea of what an allergic reaction

is in terms of TCM pathology, I think we need to pay attention and not dismiss

current western medical pathology. For example, some herbs that contain

aristicholic acid cause toxic reactions that should not be overlooked and tried

to be explained in terms of did I get the diagnosis right or apply the right

combination of herbs. Berberine is a chemical in the Huang herbs, that in

certain instances might cause problems or certain reactions. My line is stay

traditional, but stay informed.

 

Ken Cherman, L.Ac.

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi Yehuda, Z'ev and all:

>

> I can see, Yehuda, that you have a great deal of experience dealing with

Chana's " atypical " presentation. I always wonder to myself what the result would

have been if someone like her had received CM from the beginning, without the

injuries and deviations she received " therapeutically " early on in her life. CM

has clear limitations, however, it is difficult to see exactly what those

limitations are when there are such extenuating injuries and deviations present.

> I also support the co-optation of biomedicine into CM. The reverse I am not

so much for. The fact that biomedicine has pathologised allergic reactions does

not make them, in fact, pathological reactions. For instance, Laura is

experiencing some heat and itching. Why do we choose the explanation of

" allergy " in her case, versus wind-heat in the muscle layer, or heat due to

dampness stagnating? The " allergy " viewed from this point is a result of - a

sign of - a pathology, and it is not the pathology itself. We could go even

furtehr and describe a body-wide wind-heat rash expression with little to no

itching and no fever as a perfectly non-pathological process - a rash that is in

fact necessary in order to prevent pathology.

>

> Some ideas,

> Hugo

>

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Tue, 9 February, 2010 2:10:57

> sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

>

>

> Z'ev,

>

> We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

> kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has become

much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested, and so I

stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test.

You are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> Mon, February 8, 2010 10:10:39 PM

> Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

>

> Yehuda,

> Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you read

closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor.

Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including

incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or

interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical

regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or

preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy.

>

> I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool for

adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the

years when judging medicinal substances.

>

> Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often lead

to confusion or going off on the wrong track.

>

>

> On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by

differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical

properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory

reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is

that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and

the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied

kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a

particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with

return shortly to continue this discussion,

> >

> >

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> >

> > Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM

> > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

> >

> > Yehuda,

> > I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an

herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other

words,

> >

> > 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine?

> > 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction?

> > 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance?

> >

> > For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not

prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution.

> >

> > As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an

indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing

medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and

musculo-skeletal balancing methods.

> >

> >

> >

> > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Laura,

> > >

> > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have

had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the

ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be

mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy

to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in

the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature

of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a

double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being

weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and

had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you

have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation.

Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to

> > > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first

step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs

IMVHO.

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken, I must point out that the aristolochoic acid events were *exactly due

to* the misapplication of herbs due to ignorance of Chinese medical science.

These events were carried out by those ignorant of our science and therefore

ended up killing people. It is surprising to see that these events continue to

plague us as if we did it. What say you?

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" kncherman " <kncherman

Chinese Medicine

Wed, 10 February, 2010 16:13:18

Re: sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

 

 

Hi Folks,

 

I am not one to generally try to fit TCM into western paradigms. But while I

think we defintiely need to explore deeply the idea of what an allergic reaction

is in terms of TCM pathology, I think we need to pay attention and not dismiss

current western medical pathology. For example, some herbs that contain

aristicholic acid cause toxic reactions that should not be overlooked and tried

to be explained in terms of did I get the diagnosis right or apply the right

combination of herbs. Berberine is a chemical in the Huang herbs, that in

certain instances might cause problems or certain reactions. My line is stay

traditional, but stay informed.

 

Ken Cherman, L.Ac.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ken,

I am glad to see you contributing to this list. I wanted to respond to this,

because I think your points are important.

 

As Hugo pointed out, the AA (aristolochic acid) fiasco was the result of

weight loss doctors in Belgium combining rx. aristolochia ( a rarely used herb

that disinhibits dampness, and is listed as toxic with warnings in the Chinese

materia medica) with two weight loss drugs in a 'cocktail'. It was not from use

in Chinese herb prescriptions. It is true that sometimes this herb was used

mistakenly (or unethically) as a substitute for stephania/fang ji. I actually

was asked to review a case of kidney damage reportedly caused by an herbal

product by a medical board in a different state, and the herb company

unknowingly used the substitute. This is an issue of lack of accountability by

herb suppliers/producers.

 

Xi xin/hb. asarum is another herb with small amounts of AA. However, if

processed correctly, and without the roots (as is done traditionally), xi xin

will test negative for AA.

 

I feel very strongly that if berberine containing plants are used correctly

according to pattern, processed correctly, and given in proper dosage, that

there will not be 'allergic' reactions. And if there are, it should be

explained according to the symptom (skin itching, inflammation, diarrhea, etc.),

rather than just generalizing about the herbs' effects and calling it 'allergy'.

 

Finally, there are tons of reports in Chinese about herb toxicity, herb-drug

reactions, processing, etc. It is a very rare event that people are poisoned or

get sick from prescribed Chinese herbs, and when this happens, it is usually

poor processing of herbs, wrong prescription, preparation or dosage. For

example, one pharmacist prescribed (here in California!) toad venom instead of e

jiao/asshide glue and the patient died!

 

Right now, the paranoia surrounding herbs in the media has affected our

profession in a very negative way. Many students and new practitioners are

afraid to give herbs to patients , especially if they are taking medications.

Many herbs, such as ma huang and xi xin, essentials in the approach I use, are

hard to find if not impossible.

 

Any medicine has risk factors, but Chinese herbal medicine has negligible

risks when compared with pharmaceutical drugs.

 

 

 

 

On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:13 PM, kncherman wrote:

 

> Hi Folks,

>

> I am not one to generally try to fit TCM into western paradigms. But while I

think we defintiely need to explore deeply the idea of what an allergic reaction

is in terms of TCM pathology, I think we need to pay attention and not dismiss

current western medical pathology. For example, some herbs that contain

aristicholic acid cause toxic reactions that should not be overlooked and tried

to be explained in terms of did I get the diagnosis right or apply the right

combination of herbs. Berberine is a chemical in the Huang herbs, that in

certain instances might cause problems or certain reactions. My line is stay

traditional, but stay informed.

>

> Ken Cherman, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

> >

> > Hi Yehuda, Z'ev and all:

> >

> > I can see, Yehuda, that you have a great deal of experience dealing with

Chana's " atypical " presentation. I always wonder to myself what the result would

have been if someone like her had received CM from the beginning, without the

injuries and deviations she received " therapeutically " early on in her life. CM

has clear limitations, however, it is difficult to see exactly what those

limitations are when there are such extenuating injuries and deviations present.

> > I also support the co-optation of biomedicine into CM. The reverse I am not

so much for. The fact that biomedicine has pathologised allergic reactions does

not make them, in fact, pathological reactions. For instance, Laura is

experiencing some heat and itching. Why do we choose the explanation of

" allergy " in her case, versus wind-heat in the muscle layer, or heat due to

dampness stagnating? The " allergy " viewed from this point is a result of - a

sign of - a pathology, and it is not the pathology itself. We could go even

furtehr and describe a body-wide wind-heat rash expression with little to no

itching and no fever as a perfectly non-pathological process - a rash that is in

fact necessary in order to prevent pathology.

> >

> > Some ideas,

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Tue, 9 February, 2010 2:10:57

> > sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

> >

> >

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar indications,

that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the same flavor,

and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit redness and

itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be identical, but they

are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this exceptional patient

reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not necessary the case.

Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the indications if the

patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I would consider

substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all likelihood they

would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one patient with

virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb. This can be

simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is with

certain foods. As far as

> > kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has

become much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested,

and so I stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test. You

are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

> >

> >

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> >

> > Mon, February 8, 2010 10:10:39 PM

> > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

> >

> > Yehuda,

> > Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you read

closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor.

Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including

incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or

interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical

regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or

preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy.

> >

> > I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool

for adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the

years when judging medicinal substances.

> >

> > Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often

lead to confusion or going off on the wrong track.

> >

> >

> > On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> >

> > > Z'ev,

> > >

> > > I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases by

differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical

properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory

reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is

that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and

the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied

kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a

particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with

return shortly to continue this discussion,

> > >

> > >

> > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> > >

> > > Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM

> > > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

> > >

> > > Yehuda,

> > > I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an

herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other

words,

> > >

> > > 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine?

> > > 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction?

> > > 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance?

> > >

> > > For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not

prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution.

> > >

> > > As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an

indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing

medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and

musculo-skeletal balancing methods.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> > >

> > > > Hi Laura,

> > > >

> > > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have

had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the

ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be

mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy

to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in

the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature

of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a

double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being

weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and

had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you

have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation.

Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to

> > > > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the first

step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two herbs

IMVHO.

> > >

> > >

> > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev and Ken:

 

--Z'ev-

Finally, there are tons of reports in Chinese about herb toxicity, herb-drug

reactions, processing, etc. It is a very rare event that people are poisoned or

get sick from prescribed Chinese herbs, and when this happens, it is usually

poor processing of herbs, wrong prescription, preparation or dosage. For

example, one pharmacist prescribed (here in California!) toad venom instead of e

jiao/asshide glue and the patient died!

---

 

Ken is right to say that being informed is paramount. We must be able to answer

patient's concerns and clear out our own unreasonable doubts. As the discussion

on another list reveals, we have an ethical obligation to *not* hamstring

ourselves.

There is no centralised source that I know of that provides information that we

will all begin to need at our fingertips. This is unfortunate, because our

medicine truly does have an impressive safety profile, and even more so when

compared to the dangers of pharmaceuticals and the business practices of the

pharmaceutical giants.

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This discussion is why it is important to be educated in both systems of

medicine and not to leave it up to the MD's to explain what we do. Otherwise we

will have more patients fall between the cracks. There is a lot that we can

learn from and this will help us to help our patients better.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> zrosenbe

> Wed, 10 Feb 2010 18:55:48 -0800

> Re: Re: sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

>

> Ken,

> I am glad to see you contributing to this list. I wanted to respond to this,

because I think your points are important.

>

> As Hugo pointed out, the AA (aristolochic acid) fiasco was the result of

weight loss doctors in Belgium combining rx. aristolochia ( a rarely used herb

that disinhibits dampness, and is listed as toxic with warnings in the Chinese

materia medica) with two weight loss drugs in a 'cocktail'. It was not from use

in Chinese herb prescriptions. It is true that sometimes this herb was used

mistakenly (or unethically) as a substitute for stephania/fang ji. I actually

was asked to review a case of kidney damage reportedly caused by an herbal

product by a medical board in a different state, and the herb company

unknowingly used the substitute. This is an issue of lack of accountability by

herb suppliers/producers.

>

> Xi xin/hb. asarum is another herb with small amounts of AA. However, if

processed correctly, and without the roots (as is done traditionally), xi xin

will test negative for AA.

>

> I feel very strongly that if berberine containing plants are used correctly

according to pattern, processed correctly, and given in proper dosage, that

there will not be 'allergic' reactions. And if there are, it should be explained

according to the symptom (skin itching, inflammation, diarrhea, etc.), rather

than just generalizing about the herbs' effects and calling it 'allergy'.

>

> Finally, there are tons of reports in Chinese about herb toxicity, herb-drug

reactions, processing, etc. It is a very rare event that people are poisoned or

get sick from prescribed Chinese herbs, and when this happens, it is usually

poor processing of herbs, wrong prescription, preparation or dosage. For

example, one pharmacist prescribed (here in California!) toad venom instead of e

jiao/asshide glue and the patient died!

>

> Right now, the paranoia surrounding herbs in the media has affected our

profession in a very negative way. Many students and new practitioners are

afraid to give herbs to patients , especially if they are taking medications.

Many herbs, such as ma huang and xi xin, essentials in the approach I use, are

hard to find if not impossible.

>

> Any medicine has risk factors, but Chinese herbal medicine has negligible

risks when compared with pharmaceutical drugs.

>

>

>

>

> On Feb 10, 2010, at 1:13 PM, kncherman wrote:

>

> > Hi Folks,

> >

> > I am not one to generally try to fit TCM into western paradigms. But while I

think we defintiely need to explore deeply the idea of what an allergic reaction

is in terms of TCM pathology, I think we need to pay attention and not dismiss

current western medical pathology. For example, some herbs that contain

aristicholic acid cause toxic reactions that should not be overlooked and tried

to be explained in terms of did I get the diagnosis right or apply the right

combination of herbs. Berberine is a chemical in the Huang herbs, that in

certain instances might cause problems or certain reactions. My line is stay

traditional, but stay informed.

> >

> > Ken Cherman, L.Ac.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

<subincor wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Yehuda, Z'ev and all:

> > >

> > > I can see, Yehuda, that you have a great deal of experience dealing with

Chana's " atypical " presentation. I always wonder to myself what the result would

have been if someone like her had received CM from the beginning, without the

injuries and deviations she received " therapeutically " early on in her life. CM

has clear limitations, however, it is difficult to see exactly what those

limitations are when there are such extenuating injuries and deviations present.

> > > I also support the co-optation of biomedicine into CM. The reverse I am

not so much for. The fact that biomedicine has pathologised allergic reactions

does not make them, in fact, pathological reactions. For instance, Laura is

experiencing some heat and itching. Why do we choose the explanation of

" allergy " in her case, versus wind-heat in the muscle layer, or heat due to

dampness stagnating? The " allergy " viewed from this point is a result of - a

sign of - a pathology, and it is not the pathology itself. We could go even

furtehr and describe a body-wide wind-heat rash expression with little to no

itching and no fever as a perfectly non-pathological process - a rash that is in

fact necessary in order to prevent pathology.

> > >

> > > Some ideas,

> > > Hugo

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> > > Tue, 9 February, 2010 2:10:57

> > > sensitivity, herbal substitution and other alternatives

> > >

> > >

> > > Z'ev,

> > >

> > > We see often in the Materia Medica substances that have similar

indications, that enter the same channels or nearly all of them, that have the

same flavor, and temperature, yet as it happens, rare individuals do elicit

redness and itching in one, unlike the other. Granted, they may not be

identical, but they are close enough, whereby one could assume that since this

exceptional patient reacts to one, he will react to the other. But that is not

necessary the case. Take the example that I gave, of Huang Bai, depending on the

indications if the patient would elicit these inflammatory reactions perhaps I

would consider substituting herbs such as Che Qian Zi or Di Gu Pi, and in all

likelihood they would not have a similar reaction. Otherwise, why would one

patient with virtually identical symptoms not react to the same formula or herb.

This can be simply part of our individual biochemical fingerprint, just as it is

with certain foods. As far as

> > > kinesiology is concerned, I have found that the degree of accuracy has

become much greater, when neither I nor the patient know what is being tested,

and so I stand by the validity of such testing as a confirming tool. It is also

informative to check the pulse pre and post formula via the Coca pulse test. You

are right that this is not within the practice of classic orthodox Chinese

Medicine, but again, as we spoke about in our discussion of Chana, the myriad of

deleterious influences we are exposed to has changed the dynamic, so that IMO we

need to consider at times other tools and medicinal substances such as

nutriceuticals in the treatment of our patients, such as in the case as when a

patient has been tested as shows mineral deficiencies, in which no formula will

properly resolve the deficiency.

> > >

> > >

> > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> > >

> > > Mon, February 8, 2010 10:10:39 PM

> > > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

> > >

> > > Yehuda,

> > > Perhaps the herbs are not as 'identical' as you think they are, if you

read closely on their indications, combinations, qi, channel entry and flavor.

Itching and redness can indicate several issues other than allergy, including

incorrect herb combination, wrong preparation, additives or substitutions, or

interactions with other substances or medications in the diet or pharmaceutical

regimen. Also, if you separate out one herb, and 'test' it before cooking or

preparing it with the other herbs in the formula, it is already an inaccuracy.

> > >

> > > I stand on my position vis a vis kinesiology, I am fine with it as a tool

for adjustments and musculoskeletal work, but I've seen too much abuse over the

years when judging medicinal substances.

> > >

> > > Finally, I think 'mix and match' approaches to Chinese medicine can often

lead to confusion or going off on the wrong track.

> > >

> > >

> > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 9:43 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> > >

> > > > Z'ev,

> > > >

> > > > I don't understand how you can explain allergic reactivity in all cases

by differential diagnosis. If we take two herbs with virtually identical

properties, flavors, channels, and temperatures, yet one elicits an inflammatory

reaction such as itching and redness, and the other causes no reactivity, why is

that. On the other hand, if we deduce by trial that one causes reactivity, and

the other doesn't, and then we " prove it " double blind using applied

kinesiology, as I now do it, should that not support the hypothesis that a

particular medicinal substance is reactive. I have to go now to ma'ariv but with

return shortly to continue this discussion,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> > > >

> > > > Mon, February 8, 2010 7:50:23 PM

> > > > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula

> > > >

> > > > Yehuda,

> > > > I think if we are going to say a patient has an allergic reaction to an

herb, we need to understand it in the perspective of Chinese medicine. In other

words,

> > > >

> > > > 1) what is an allergy or allergic reaction in Chinese medicine?

> > > > 2) what are the pathomechanisms of such a reaction?

> > > > 3) why is the individual having a problem with the medicinal substance?

> > > >

> > > > For number three, usually it means that the formula or ingredient is not

prescribed properly for the patient's condition or constitution.

> > > >

> > > > As far as kinesiology goes, in my opinion it is less than reliable as an

indicator of allergic responses. It is too prone to suggestibility for testing

medical reactions, I think it is more suitable for adjustments and

musculo-skeletal balancing methods.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 6:20 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

> > > >

> > > > > Hi Laura,

> > > > >

> > > > > I've had a couple of patients that have had reactions such as you have

had, and each time, it turned out that the allergic reaction was to one of the

ingredients in the formula. In each case also, the allergic herb happened to be

mentioned in either Bensky or Chen. One I specifically remember was an allergy

to Huang Bai, in Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan. First, I looked at all the ingredients in

the two both Materias Medica, to see if there was any mention in the literature

of allergic reactions, and there indeed had been to Huang Bai. There doing a

double blind test with applied kinesiology, Huang Bai was confirmed as being

weak. When I replaced ZBDHW with Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, the patient benefited and

had no adverse reaction whatsoever. Now to your case, you mentioned that you

have done well with the classic formula of TWBXW, but not with this formulation.

Interestingly, the new Bensky does list possible reactions to

> > > > > both Bai Bu and Du Zhong. Though theory is all well and good, the

first step I would take would be to test a possible reactivity to those two

herbs IMVHO.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> > > >

> > > >