Guest guest Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Sorry if my post is a little late, this is one fast-moving discussion group. I wanted to comment on a big interest of mine, modifying formulas... 1. There should be a fifth category here, essentially stating that modifications of formulas can come from the " principles of Chinese medicine. " Quite simply, they do not have to be from classical modifications, methods of different currents, or even empirical modifications. This is well demonstrated in 1000's of Chinese past case records as well as in my clinical experience. However, this does not mean anything goes, one must be firmly rooted in the treatment principles as well as have detailed knowledge of the temperature, functions, etc. of the medicinals they are using. I also completely agree with Z'ev that the modifications mentioned for TWBXD (that prompted this thread) makes little sense. Unless I missed an explanation, I would like to understand the thinking behind of the modifications. I also agree that when we get " strange " looking formulas there is a higher chance of having reactions. 2. Another category #6 is modifications based on modern western pharmacological data. Maybe one would consider this a " current " . Although, I rarely use such methods, it is definitely an en vogue style and must be contended with. 3. Another category #7 is symptomatic relief. Many times medicinals are added to formulas purely based on the branch/symptoms. Sometimes these are classical or empirical modifications, but they do not have to be. Of course, choosing medicinals that are in line with the underlying pattern is most optimal. However, sometimes this is not always possible and one must use additional herbs to balance out unwanted actions of the added medicinal. This becomes extremely difficult, because one must account for all the interactions with the other herbs and make sure that the key dynamic of the original formula stays intact. One might see a master herbalists do this and think that it is easy. But beginning herbalists often just start throwing herbs in formulas for symptoms and the formula becomes chaotic and disorderly. This is why many teachers recommend sticking to classic modifications. However some of the most famous herbalists in Chinese medicine history (at least the 10-20 that I like to read) do all sorts of things. Sometimes there is no root formula (or least classical one) and many times the modifications are mind-boggling. If one does not understand the thinking, the formula can " seem " semi-chaotic. However, with deeper study one begins to see the method of the madness. Ye Tian-Shi, probably one of the most famous herbalists in history, is a perfect example. He has actually been criticized by Xu Ling-Tai for not following set formulas, which demonstrates how " free " YTS really was with his herbal prescriptions. Actually much of his improvised formulas were actually systematized creating much of wen bing tiao bian. To read more about Ye Tian-Shi, check out: Chinese Medicine/tag/ye-tian-shi/ 4. I think this allergy discussion has been quite interesting. Although, in general I agree with Zev's camp that many reactions that are labeled as " allergies " are just a poor understanding of the aggravated Chinese medicine pathodynamic. Such information, if properly understood, can be extremely enlightening when unraveling difficult cases. However, assuming that all such reactions can be explained through Chinese medicine is naïve. They're people that have legitimate allergies and sensitivities to all sorts of things (foods, herbs) that theoretically should be fine for them from their Chinese medicine pattern. This is especially evident when one deals with ultrasensitive patients. We have quite a few in our office and giving them herbs is always a challenge. Chinese medicine quite simply does not explain everything. As an example, there is the unanswered question in regard to Chinese medicinals and celiac. There plenty of people with celiac that have indications for medicinals such as yiyiren and maiya, but in my opinion, you're playing with fire (not to mention treating unethically) if you give these medicinals to someone with severe celiac disease. There's my two cents, thanks everyone else for the stimulating messages that preceded... -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Monday, February 08, 2010 4:07 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula There are many ways to modify formulas: 1) combining prescriptions 2) classical modifications, such as those listed in the Shang Han Lun or Jin Gui Yao Lue 3) methods of different currents, such as spleen stomach current, nourish yin current, blood stasis current (Wang Qing-ren) 4) empirical modifications. Even empirical modifications are or should be based on classical combinations/dui yao of ingredients. Several companies, I've discovered, add herbs to modify formulas without a clear reason for doing so. Or the modifications may be appropriate for a few patients, but not for a wide variety of patients. That is why I asked you the reason/source for the modified tian wang bu xin dan, a formula that is not usually modified very much. . Of course I modify formulas as needed, but according to strict principles. I do admire Kampo, which doesn't modify formulas much at all. . On Feb 8, 2010, at 2:25 PM, heylaurag wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Jason, It's a no-brainer to realize that Chinese medicine doesn't have an explanation for everything. There are many medical phenomena that remain unknowns. But my feeling is that while we need to be humble and realize our limited knowledge of phenomena in this world, we should leave no stone unturned in trying to understand these phenomena with the tools we have. I also occasionally have patients who react to herbal formulas, and I simply try to do the best I can to understand with the tools I have. With celiac patients, I am especially cautious, and with some patients, I'll just use acupuncture. Having said that, for me leaving no stone unturned means trying to find pathomechanisms from within our medical tradition and understanding from both within and without. Modern medicine is starting to grow past the genetic, 'roll of the dice' approach to diseases, as evidenced in recent research in epigenetics, which postulates that genetic patterns are influenced by a wide variety of environmental, emotional dietary and climatic influences, they are not 'fixed in stone'. So it may behoove us to challenge conventional wisdom in these cases, although clinically of course we have to play it safe. This includes celiac disease and a wide variety of environmental sensitivities. I recently had a patient who developed pancreatitis with elevated enzymes after using chai hu jia long gu mu li tang. I was very puzzled by this reaction, as I hadn't seen this reaction before. I always ask patients for full disclosure on all medications and supplements, but I asked the patient again if she was taking anything else I wasn' t aware of. As it turned out, the patient was using a MLM laxative formula that was very powerful daily, and had warnings on the label to not use without medical supervision. I can only assume that the combination of powerful laxatives with the Chinese herbal formula was not a good one. . The pendulum swings both ways. On one hand, we shouldn't over-diagnose allergies and leave it at that with tools that may not be so reliable, on the other hand, we have a huge room full of new problems to tackle in our daily practices. We just need to roll up our sleeves and get to work. On Feb 11, 2010, at 5:54 AM, wrote: > However, assuming that all such reactions can be explained through Chinese > medicine is naïve. They're people that have legitimate allergies and > sensitivities to all sorts of things (foods, herbs) that theoretically > should be fine for them from their Chinese medicine pattern. This is > especially evident when one deals with ultrasensitive patients. We have > quite a few in our office and giving them herbs is always a challenge. > Chinese medicine quite simply does not explain everything. > As an example, there is the unanswered question in regard to Chinese > medicinals and celiac. There plenty of people with celiac that have > indications for medicinals such as yiyiren and maiya, but in my opinion, > you're playing with fire (not to mention treating unethically) if you give > these medicinals to someone with severe celiac disease. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 Since I think we are saying the exact same thing, I completely agree. There are situations that Chinese medicine cannot explain, but we should try our hardest to use the tools we have. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Thursday, February 11, 2010 10:01 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Jason, It's a no-brainer to realize that Chinese medicine doesn't have an explanation for everything. There are many medical phenomena that remain unknowns. But my feeling is that while we need to be humble and realize our limited knowledge of phenomena in this world, we should leave no stone unturned in trying to understand these phenomena with the tools we have. I also occasionally have patients who react to herbal formulas, and I simply try to do the best I can to understand with the tools I have. With celiac patients, I am especially cautious, and with some patients, I'll just use acupuncture. Having said that, for me leaving no stone unturned means trying to find pathomechanisms from within our medical tradition and understanding from both within and without. Modern medicine is starting to grow past the genetic, 'roll of the dice' approach to diseases, as evidenced in recent research in epigenetics, which postulates that genetic patterns are influenced by a wide variety of environmental, emotional dietary and climatic influences, they are not 'fixed in stone'. So it may behoove us to challenge conventional wisdom in these cases, although clinically of course we have to play it safe. This includes celiac disease and a wide variety of environmental sensitivities. I recently had a patient who developed pancreatitis with elevated enzymes after using chai hu jia long gu mu li tang. I was very puzzled by this reaction, as I hadn't seen this reaction before. I always ask patients for full disclosure on all medications and supplements, but I asked the patient again if she was taking anything else I wasn' t aware of. As it turned out, the patient was using a MLM laxative formula that was very powerful daily, and had warnings on the label to not use without medical supervision. I can only assume that the combination of powerful laxatives with the Chinese herbal formula was not a good one. . The pendulum swings both ways. On one hand, we shouldn't over-diagnose allergies and leave it at that with tools that may not be so reliable, on the other hand, we have a huge room full of new problems to tackle in our daily practices. We just need to roll up our sleeves and get to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Just a quick response--the KPC TWBXT formula that is in question has done wonders for my life. It is the first formula that I have ever found that works well for my sleep issue while also feeling good. So clearly there is a wisdom to it. Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > Sorry if my post is a little late, this is one fast-moving discussion group. > I wanted to comment on a big interest of mine, modifying formulas... > > 1. There should be a fifth category here, essentially stating that > modifications of formulas can come from the " principles of Chinese > medicine. " Quite simply, they do not have to be from classical > modifications, methods of different currents, or even empirical > modifications. This is well demonstrated in 1000's of Chinese past case > records as well as in my clinical experience. However, this does not mean > anything goes, one must be firmly rooted in the treatment principles as well > as have detailed knowledge of the temperature, functions, etc. of the > medicinals they are using. I also completely agree with Z'ev that the > modifications mentioned for TWBXD (that prompted this thread) makes little > sense. Unless I missed an explanation, I would like to understand the > thinking behind of the modifications. I also agree that when we get > " strange " looking formulas there is a higher chance of having reactions. > > 2. Another category #6 is modifications based on modern western > pharmacological data. Maybe one would consider this a " current " . Although, I > rarely use such methods, it is definitely an en vogue style and must be > contended with. > > 3. Another category #7 is symptomatic relief. Many times medicinals are > added to formulas purely based on the branch/symptoms. Sometimes these are > classical or empirical modifications, but they do not have to be. Of course, > choosing medicinals that are in line with the underlying pattern is most > optimal. However, sometimes this is not always possible and one must use > additional herbs to balance out unwanted actions of the added medicinal. > This becomes extremely difficult, because one must account for all the > interactions with the other herbs and make sure that the key dynamic of the > original formula stays intact. One might see a master herbalists do this and > think that it is easy. But beginning herbalists often just start throwing > herbs in formulas for symptoms and the formula becomes chaotic and > disorderly. This is why many teachers recommend sticking to classic > modifications. > > However some of the most famous herbalists in Chinese medicine history (at > least the 10-20 that I like to read) do all sorts of things. Sometimes there > is no root formula (or least classical one) and many times the modifications > are mind-boggling. If one does not understand the thinking, the formula can > " seem " semi-chaotic. However, with deeper study one begins to see the method > of the madness. Ye Tian-Shi, probably one of the most famous herbalists in > history, is a perfect example. He has actually been criticized by Xu > Ling-Tai for not following set formulas, which demonstrates how " free " YTS > really was with his herbal prescriptions. Actually much of his improvised > formulas were actually systematized creating much of wen bing tiao bian. To > read more about Ye Tian-Shi, check out: > Chinese Medicine/tag/ye-tian-shi/ > > 4. I think this allergy discussion has been quite interesting. Although, in > general I agree with Zev's camp that many reactions that are labeled as > " allergies " are just a poor understanding of the aggravated Chinese medicine > pathodynamic. Such information, if properly understood, can be extremely > enlightening when unraveling difficult cases. > However, assuming that all such reactions can be explained through Chinese > medicine is naïve. They're people that have legitimate allergies and > sensitivities to all sorts of things (foods, herbs) that theoretically > should be fine for them from their Chinese medicine pattern. This is > especially evident when one deals with ultrasensitive patients. We have > quite a few in our office and giving them herbs is always a challenge. > Chinese medicine quite simply does not explain everything. > As an example, there is the unanswered question in regard to Chinese > medicinals and celiac. There plenty of people with celiac that have > indications for medicinals such as yiyiren and maiya, but in my opinion, > you're playing with fire (not to mention treating unethically) if you give > these medicinals to someone with severe celiac disease. > > There's my two cents, thanks everyone else for the stimulating messages that > preceded... > > -Jason > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Monday, February 08, 2010 4:07 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula > > There are many ways to modify formulas: > > 1) combining prescriptions > > 2) classical modifications, such as those listed in the Shang Han Lun or Jin > Gui Yao Lue > > 3) methods of different currents, such as spleen stomach current, nourish > yin current, blood stasis current (Wang Qing-ren) > > 4) empirical modifications. > > Even empirical modifications are or should be based on classical > combinations/dui yao of ingredients. Several companies, I've discovered, > add herbs to modify formulas without a clear reason for doing so. Or the > modifications may be appropriate for a few patients, but not for a wide > variety of patients. That is why I asked you the reason/source for the > modified tian wang bu xin dan, a formula that is not usually modified very > much. . > > Of course I modify formulas as needed, but according to strict principles. > I do admire Kampo, which doesn't modify formulas much at all. . > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 2:25 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 One more thing--I was able to resolve the night itching by increasing the yin tonification in my evening dose. Its a good example of how you can apply the principles of CM and modify with success. Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > Sorry if my post is a little late, this is one fast-moving discussion group. > I wanted to comment on a big interest of mine, modifying formulas... > > 1. There should be a fifth category here, essentially stating that > modifications of formulas can come from the " principles of Chinese > medicine. " Quite simply, they do not have to be from classical > modifications, methods of different currents, or even empirical > modifications. This is well demonstrated in 1000's of Chinese past case > records as well as in my clinical experience. However, this does not mean > anything goes, one must be firmly rooted in the treatment principles as well > as have detailed knowledge of the temperature, functions, etc. of the > medicinals they are using. I also completely agree with Z'ev that the > modifications mentioned for TWBXD (that prompted this thread) makes little > sense. Unless I missed an explanation, I would like to understand the > thinking behind of the modifications. I also agree that when we get > " strange " looking formulas there is a higher chance of having reactions. > > 2. Another category #6 is modifications based on modern western > pharmacological data. Maybe one would consider this a " current " . Although, I > rarely use such methods, it is definitely an en vogue style and must be > contended with. > > 3. Another category #7 is symptomatic relief. Many times medicinals are > added to formulas purely based on the branch/symptoms. Sometimes these are > classical or empirical modifications, but they do not have to be. Of course, > choosing medicinals that are in line with the underlying pattern is most > optimal. However, sometimes this is not always possible and one must use > additional herbs to balance out unwanted actions of the added medicinal. > This becomes extremely difficult, because one must account for all the > interactions with the other herbs and make sure that the key dynamic of the > original formula stays intact. One might see a master herbalists do this and > think that it is easy. But beginning herbalists often just start throwing > herbs in formulas for symptoms and the formula becomes chaotic and > disorderly. This is why many teachers recommend sticking to classic > modifications. > > However some of the most famous herbalists in Chinese medicine history (at > least the 10-20 that I like to read) do all sorts of things. Sometimes there > is no root formula (or least classical one) and many times the modifications > are mind-boggling. If one does not understand the thinking, the formula can > " seem " semi-chaotic. However, with deeper study one begins to see the method > of the madness. Ye Tian-Shi, probably one of the most famous herbalists in > history, is a perfect example. He has actually been criticized by Xu > Ling-Tai for not following set formulas, which demonstrates how " free " YTS > really was with his herbal prescriptions. Actually much of his improvised > formulas were actually systematized creating much of wen bing tiao bian. To > read more about Ye Tian-Shi, check out: > Chinese Medicine/tag/ye-tian-shi/ > > 4. I think this allergy discussion has been quite interesting. Although, in > general I agree with Zev's camp that many reactions that are labeled as > " allergies " are just a poor understanding of the aggravated Chinese medicine > pathodynamic. Such information, if properly understood, can be extremely > enlightening when unraveling difficult cases. > However, assuming that all such reactions can be explained through Chinese > medicine is naïve. They're people that have legitimate allergies and > sensitivities to all sorts of things (foods, herbs) that theoretically > should be fine for them from their Chinese medicine pattern. This is > especially evident when one deals with ultrasensitive patients. We have > quite a few in our office and giving them herbs is always a challenge. > Chinese medicine quite simply does not explain everything. > As an example, there is the unanswered question in regard to Chinese > medicinals and celiac. There plenty of people with celiac that have > indications for medicinals such as yiyiren and maiya, but in my opinion, > you're playing with fire (not to mention treating unethically) if you give > these medicinals to someone with severe celiac disease. > > There's my two cents, thanks everyone else for the stimulating messages that > preceded... > > -Jason > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev > Rosenberg > Monday, February 08, 2010 4:07 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Itching at night w/formula > > There are many ways to modify formulas: > > 1) combining prescriptions > > 2) classical modifications, such as those listed in the Shang Han Lun or Jin > Gui Yao Lue > > 3) methods of different currents, such as spleen stomach current, nourish > yin current, blood stasis current (Wang Qing-ren) > > 4) empirical modifications. > > Even empirical modifications are or should be based on classical > combinations/dui yao of ingredients. Several companies, I've discovered, > add herbs to modify formulas without a clear reason for doing so. Or the > modifications may be appropriate for a few patients, but not for a wide > variety of patients. That is why I asked you the reason/source for the > modified tian wang bu xin dan, a formula that is not usually modified very > much. . > > Of course I modify formulas as needed, but according to strict principles. > I do admire Kampo, which doesn't modify formulas much at all. . > > > On Feb 8, 2010, at 2:25 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Another modification .... by dosage : add or subtract ingredient dosages or increase frequency or concentration others: by ingredients: single herb addition (jia) or deletion (qu), dui yao or two formula combining by processing (pao zhi) by carriers: wines (jiu), decoctions (tang), powders (san), pills (wan), tablets (pian) etc. by cooking : military fire (strong fire, short cooking time) or civil fire (mild heat, long cooking time) K > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 K, The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic threshold? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:30:57 -0800 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Another modification .... by dosage : add or subtract ingredient dosages or increase frequency or concentration others: by ingredients: single herb addition (jia) or deletion (qu), dui yao or two formula combining by processing (pao zhi) by carriers: wines (jiu), decoctions (tang), powders (san), pills (wan), tablets (pian) etc. by cooking : military fire (strong fire, short cooking time) or civil fire (mild heat, long cooking time) K > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, get itchy eyes and have skin issues Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... contraindicated during pregnancy. Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with bleach water herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to back up their product and integrity to that product K On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > K, > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > threshold? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Thu, 11 Feb 2010 19:30:57 -0800 > Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another modification .... > > by dosage : add or subtract ingredient dosages or increase frequency or > > concentration > > > > others: > > by ingredients: single herb addition (jia) or deletion (qu), dui yao or > two > > formula combining > > by processing (pao zhi) > > by carriers: wines (jiu), decoctions (tang), powders (san), pills (wan), > > tablets (pian) etc. > > by cooking : military fire (strong fire, short cooking time) or civil > fire > > (mild heat, long cooking time) > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > "" > > > > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 Hi Mike and John; It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, get itchy eyes and have skin issues Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... contraindicated during pregnancy. Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with bleach water herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to back up their product and integrity to that product K On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > K, > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > threshold? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 I was talking to a leading Acupuncture Insurance company, the major area of lawsuits: 1. Herbs 2. Burns 3. Pneumothorax Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Mike and John; > > It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. > There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. > The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. > Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <johnkokko > Chinese Medicine > Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 > Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies > > > Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, > get itchy eyes and have skin issues > Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... > contraindicated during pregnancy. > > Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. > collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with > bleach water > herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to > back up their product and integrity to that product > > K > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > K, > > > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > > threshold? > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 How would they know that about herbs? They don't cover herbal medicine-- Chinese Medicine , " singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001 wrote: > > I was talking to a leading Acupuncture Insurance company, the major area of lawsuits: > > 1. Herbs > 2. Burns > 3. Pneumothorax > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mike and John; > > > > It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. > > There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. > > The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. > > Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <johnkokko@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 > > Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies > > > > > > Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, > > get itchy eyes and have skin issues > > Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... > > contraindicated during pregnancy. > > > > Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. > > collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with > > bleach water > > herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to > > back up their product and integrity to that product > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > > > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > > > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > > > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > > > threshold? > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 I can only guess they have records of all lawsuits against Acupuncturists, its probably public knowledge. You can always check your your company to confirm. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > How would they know that about herbs? They don't cover herbal medicine-- > > > > Chinese Medicine , " singlewhip2001 " <singlewhip2001@> wrote: > > > > I was talking to a leading Acupuncture Insurance company, the major area of lawsuits: > > > > 1. Herbs > > 2. Burns > > 3. Pneumothorax > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mike and John; > > > > > > It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. > > > There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. > > > The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. > > > Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. > > > Hugo > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Hugo Ramiro > > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > <johnkokko@> > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 > > > Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies > > > > > > > > > Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, > > > get itchy eyes and have skin issues > > > Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... > > > contraindicated during pregnancy. > > > > > > Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. > > > collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with > > > bleach water > > > herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to > > > back up their product and integrity to that product > > > > > > K > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > > > > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > > > > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > > > > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > > > > threshold? > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hi David: These are legalistic problems which do not reflect actual risks. any info on the type of burns referred to? Thanks, Hugo On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:39 EST singlewhip2001 wrote: >I was talking to a leading Acupuncture Insurance company, the major area of lawsuits: > >1. Herbs >2. Burns >3. Pneumothorax > > > >Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: >> >> Hi Mike and John; >> >> It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. >> There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. >> The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. >> Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. >> Hugo >> >> ________________________________ >> Hugo Ramiro >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com >> http://www.middlemedicine.org >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> <johnkokko >> Chinese Medicine >> Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 >> Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies >> >> >> Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, >> get itchy eyes and have skin issues >> Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... >> contraindicated during pregnancy. >> >> Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. >> collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with >> bleach water >> herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to >> back up their product and integrity to that product >> >> K >> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: >> >> > >> > K, >> > >> > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be >> > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have >> > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as >> > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic >> > threshold? >> > >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hi Hugo: I can't answer any questions on details, it was a short conversation. david Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi David: > These are legalistic problems which do not reflect actual risks. any info on the type of burns referred to? > > Thanks, > Hugo > > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:39 EST singlewhip2001 wrote: > > >I was talking to a leading Acupuncture Insurance company, the major area of lawsuits: > > > >1. Herbs > >2. Burns > >3. Pneumothorax > > > > > > > >Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Mike and John; > >> > >> It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. > >> There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. > >> The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. > >> Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. > >> Hugo > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Hugo Ramiro > >> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > >> http://www.middlemedicine.org > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> <johnkokko@> > >> Chinese Medicine > >> Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 > >> Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies > >> > >> > >> Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, > >> get itchy eyes and have skin issues > >> Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... > >> contraindicated during pregnancy. > >> > >> Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. > >> collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with > >> bleach water > >> herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to > >> back up their product and integrity to that product > >> > >> K > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > K, > >> > > >> > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > >> > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > >> > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > >> > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > >> > threshold? > >> > > >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hugo, Ever looked at Jake Fratkin's book on Chinese patent medicines? You will notice that there are many listed patents that fail testing for heavy metals and other contaminents. This is a bigger problem then we really understand. Where is the mercury coming from? Hint, we in MN also have mercury issues in our lakes now due to coal power plants and are warned against eating too many fish. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:20:26 +0000 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Hi Mike and John; It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, get itchy eyes and have skin issues Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... contraindicated during pregnancy. Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with bleach water herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to back up their product and integrity to that product K On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > K, > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > threshold? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 Hi Mike, I am aware of the problems you mention. And our profession needs to continue to engage them and follow through. However, dangers from herbs are *greatly* overstated. We have nothing like the dangers present from properly prescribed pharmaceuticals, for instance. Seriously, our medicines have to be seriously misprescribed and / or poisoned before they start posing a risk! On the other hand, as Pomeranz said, " we didn't think it was anything like this bad " when referring to the data found when examining for drug adverse events, all the way from properly prescribed, to medical mistakes in prescription, dosing and combination. And yet, as we review the literature, and we find isolated case reports (the *worst* kind of evidence according to their standards, remember) of adverse events presumed to be related to herbs. Then we find large studies that find no relationship [1]. This study followed nearly 8,000 canadians of average age 70 over three years, and more than that 2/3rds were women (and women suffer more adverse reactions and more severely than men do) and minimal significant interactions or adverse events were found. About 1.5% were found to be using contraindicated combinations of herbs and drugs. The rate of adverse events was *less* than that! Compare to drugs at 15% severe events conservatively. Like I said, being paranoid and driving with the parking brake on does not serve us. Realistic and forward-looking does. Thanks Mike, Hugo 1. Vik, S. Presentation, North American Research Conference on Complementary and Integrative Medicine, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, May 24-27, 2006. David Hanley, MD, FRCPC, professor of medicine, division of endocrinology and metabolism, University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Stephen Kliewer, PhD, professor, department of molecular biology, University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Sat, 13 February, 2010 16:08:30 RE: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Hugo, Ever looked at Jake Fratkin's book on Chinese patent medicines? You will notice that there are many listed patents that fail testing for heavy metals and other contaminents. This is a bigger problem then we really understand. Where is the mercury coming from? Hint, we in MN also have mercury issues in our lakes now due to coal power plants and are warned against eating too many fish. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:20:26 +0000 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Hi Mike and John; It is our responsibility to take care of the quality and purity of our materials. It is also important to know that most people's risk analysis is highly superstitious. For example, chinese herbs are dangerous because they appear, to them, to be the " other " , the unknown. (Belief without reason, in other words.) Yet red meat is associated with ridiculously elevated risks of cancer (*at least* 400% higher meat eater vs non-meat-eater). Mercury (a form that is very toxic and, incredibly, distinct from zhu sha) is appearing in all seafood, and so on and so forth. These factors amongst other pervasive ones are truly dangerous, herbs not so much. Even if they are sulphured. Far worse is the chemicalised food that people ingest on a daily basis. There is simply no evidence to support any idea that herbs are dangerous. The evidence, in fact, supports what we know to be true - that the safety profile of our medicine is excellent. The ridiculous level of danger emanating from the pharmaceutical industry, however, will not be looked at with any seriousness anytime in the near future because of the layers and layers of money and superstition guarding its gates. Just trying to take a different tack, and hoping to continue to hear regarding the problems of quality and purity in our profession. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Fri, 12 February, 2010 15:21:13 Re: Re: Herb modifications+ Allergies Mike, great point. yes... for instance sulfur can make some people sneeze, get itchy eyes and have skin issues Sulfur (Liu huang) is hot, toxic and sour... kills parasites... contraindicated during pregnancy. Correct species ID is crucial, higher grade herbs, purity of the product.. collected at the right time, not over or under dried... not cleaned with bleach water herbs that have certified 3rd party lab tested certificates of analysis to back up their product and integrity to that product K On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:26 AM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com>wrote: > > K, > > The one thing that does not appear on this list and maybe should be > considered above all, quality of product. We are assuming here that we have > both correct species and purity. Chemicals can be found in our herbs as > well as heavy metals, etc. At what point in a person do we hit the toxic > threshold? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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