TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

 

 

 

I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption†began. You want to look

at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that they

will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is very

vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just a

some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I personally

think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors were

practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find it

difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

 

 

 

TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out, really

have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely heavily

on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

 

 

 

You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from Qin

Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on this

listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking based on

the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

 

 

 

However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to start

haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis. Qin,

being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time, spoke

out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the process

and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not that he

did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he just

thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by incorporating

such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

after.

 

 

 

Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?). The

book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

print, that my teacher (one of Qin’s main students) had hidden away. So

hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But if

you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin’s thinking and how he taught I

recommend checking out his 内ç»çŸ¥è¦æµ…解。 This is his commentary on the

Essential

Knowledge from the Inner Classic 内ç»çŸ¥è¦(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

interest in the Yellow Emperor’s Inner Classic, hence having the nickname of

Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying them

to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough for

web publication.

 

 

 

He actually wrote his first book (清代å医医è¯ç²¾åŽ) at the age of I

think 18 and it

is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

exact title slipping my mind at the moment…

 

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Hugo

Ramiro

Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

 

 

 

 

 

Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education did

not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am not

sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues who

are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I mentioned.

Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular texts

you consider most important.

 

The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

 

Until next time,

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason, thank you for taking the time to write an enjoyable and informative

post. Thank you for the references as well. I am not sure if the listserv has a

bad opinion of TCM, it may just be me. And you are right to say that my smear

campaign confuses the issue - I am too loose with my definition of TCM, and

certainly QBW's work is distinct in nature and application from what passes for

TCM this past half century. It is nice to see the loyalty and understanding

transmitted from teacher to student as exemplified in your post.

It is always a heartbreaking story to hear of the losses that occurred during

the cultural revolution (and indeed, during each dynastic upheaval).

That chapter on Yin Yang certainly grabs my interest.

 

Thanks again, Jason,

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm reading the " Qin Bo-Wei Anthology " trans by Charles Chace. Paradigm

Publications

The Intro and Bio are revealing and inspiring to all of us to work more

diligently.

Qin Bo Wei believed that everyone should revere the 4 medical classics, just

as the 4 Confucian/Meng zi classics.

The translated Bio doesn't mention that Qin Bo-Wei was sent to scrub

toilets, but it does mention that he became sick

after the cultural revolution... maybe the bio authors were trying to save

their own skins?

Funny fact was that Qin Bo-Wei was a chain smoker and wrote ideas down on

the back of cigarette papers.

He had so many of these little " sticky " notes, there were books made and

" burned " from them.

 

The essay on Liver pathologies is very interesting, in light of the fact

that modern TCM doesn't really teach about

Liver depression in comparison to Liver Qi, Liver Heat vs Liver Fire or

Liver yang deficiency.

Qin Bo Wei writes that it is critical to know the distinctions.

 

Jason or others, could you help elucidate the difference between " Liver Qi "

vs " Liver depression " patterns?

 

K

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:15 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Hugo,

>

> I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

> possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

> doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption " began. You want to

> look

> at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that

> they

> will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is very

> vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just a

> some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I

> personally

> think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors were

> practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find it

> difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

>

> TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

> changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

> younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out, really

> have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely

> heavily

> on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

>

> You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from Qin

> Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

> considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on this

> listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

> because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking based

> on

> the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

> together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

> weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

>

> However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

> years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to start

> haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis. Qin,

> being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time, spoke

> out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the process

> and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not that

> he

> did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he just

> thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by incorporating

> such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

> Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

> being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

> after.

>

> Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?). The

> book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

> print, that my teacher (one of Qin's main students) had hidden away. So

> hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But if

> you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin's thinking and how he taught I

> recommend checking out his ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒªÇ³½â¡£ This is his commentary on the

Essential

> Knowledge from the Inner Classic ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒª(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

> interest in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic, hence having the nickname

> of

> Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying them

> to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

> this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough

> for

> web publication.

>

> He actually wrote his first book (Çå´úÃûÒ½Ò½»°¾«»ª) at the age of I think 18

and it

> is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

> enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

> exact title slipping my mind at the moment...

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

> On Behalf Of Hugo

> Ramiro

> Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

>

> Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education did

> not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am not

> sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues who

> are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I mentioned.

> Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

> appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular

> texts

> you consider most important.

>

> The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

> because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

> learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

>

> Until next time,

>

> Hugo

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Is Qin Bo-Wei's " Notes to the Reading of the Nei-jing " going to be available

in English?

 

I'm interested in Qin's classmates, Chi Gongzhang and Zang Chengzhang, who

collectively were called the " Three Outstanding Ones " of the Shanghai

medical community.

Is Cheng's writings on Shang han theory/practice going to be translated by

anyone?

 

These early students of Ding Ganren had to memorize many essays and learn

classical Chinese.

They were definitely part of the movement to save Chinese medicine from the

Guomintang govt, who in 1929 tried to abolish Chinese medicine. He was

elected secretary to the group who protested against the resolution and

ultimately saved Chinese medicine from possible extinction.

 

TCM, as is taught in the west is actually very effective for many issues,

that we never see in our private practices...you can go to Chapters 17/18 in

the Beijing " Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion " (CAM) book to see the

diseases we don't encounter in our private practices in the west. I've

tried some of these point protocols for these rarer issues with good effect.

We see mainly pain and stress patients generally, so Master Tung's points

for instance work instantly for pain-relief and then we discard everything

else in TCM as ineffective.

 

For me, my main complaint of TCM is two-fold:

1... a lack of channel and body palpation

2... the lack of Shang han / Jin gui / Nei jing training and practice

 

Both of these points can be remedied by 1. touching the body (most Japanese

schools, Wang Ju-Yi style etc.)

2. by studying the classics in practice (Arnaud Versluys, Craig Mitchell,

books by Paradigm, Blue-Poppy etc.)

 

So, more than a problem with the system, the solution is for us to delve

deeper into the tools at our finger-tips.

 

The major complaint of TCM schools in the west is that we don't see more

patients in our TCM training

(less than 10 / day in US vs 50+ in China?)

 

I'm not exactly sure how we can change this, unless we treat people for free

at the TCM school clinics.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

2010/2/20 <johnkokko

 

> I'm reading the " Qin Bo-Wei Anthology " trans by Charles Chace. Paradigm

> Publications

> The Intro and Bio are revealing and inspiring to all of us to work more

> diligently.

> Qin Bo Wei believed that everyone should revere the 4 medical classics,

> just as the 4 Confucian/Meng zi classics.

> The translated Bio doesn't mention that Qin Bo-Wei was sent to scrub

> toilets, but it does mention that he became sick

> after the cultural revolution... maybe the bio authors were trying to save

> their own skins?

> Funny fact was that Qin Bo-Wei was a chain smoker and wrote ideas down on

> the back of cigarette papers.

> He had so many of these little " sticky " notes, there were books made and

> " burned " from them.

>

> The essay on Liver pathologies is very interesting, in light of the fact

> that modern TCM doesn't really teach about

> Liver depression in comparison to Liver Qi, Liver Heat vs Liver Fire or

> Liver yang deficiency.

> Qin Bo Wei writes that it is critical to know the distinctions.

>

> Jason or others, could you help elucidate the difference between " Liver

> Qi " vs " Liver depression " patterns?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:15 AM, <

> > wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Hugo,

>>

>> I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

>> possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

>> doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption " began. You want to

>> look

>> at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that

>> they

>> will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is very

>> vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just a

>> some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I

>> personally

>> think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors were

>> practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find it

>> difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

>>

>> TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

>> changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

>> younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out, really

>> have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely

>> heavily

>> on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

>>

>> You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from

>> Qin

>> Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

>> considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on this

>> listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

>> because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking based

>> on

>> the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

>> together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

>> weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

>>

>> However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

>> years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to start

>> haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis. Qin,

>> being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time,

>> spoke

>> out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the process

>> and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not that

>> he

>> did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he

>> just

>> thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by incorporating

>> such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

>> Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

>> being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

>> after.

>>

>> Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?). The

>> book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

>> print, that my teacher (one of Qin's main students) had hidden away. So

>> hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But

>> if

>> you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin's thinking and how he taught I

>> recommend checking out his ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒªÇ³½â¡£ This is his commentary on the

Essential

>> Knowledge from the Inner Classic ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒª(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

>> interest in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic, hence having the nickname

>> of

>> Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying

>> them

>> to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

>> this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough

>> for

>> web publication.

>>

>> He actually wrote his first book (Çå´úÃûÒ½Ò½»°¾«»ª) at the age of I think 18

and

>> it

>> is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

>> enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

>> exact title slipping my mind at the moment...

>>

>> Hope this helps,

>>

>> -Jason

>>

>>

>>

>>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

>> On Behalf Of Hugo

>> Ramiro

>> Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

>>

>> Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education

>> did

>> not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am not

>> sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues

>> who

>> are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I

>> mentioned.

>> Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

>> appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular

>> texts

>> you consider most important.

>>

>> The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

>> because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

>> learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

>>

>> Until next time,

>>

>> Hugo

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

John

 

Which " rarer issues " have you successfully treated with these protocols?

Perhaps an example or two and with the point protocols. I would be grateful.

And with what treatment frequency( daily, twice/weekly ? )

 

Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:16 AM

Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

 

 

 

Jason,

Is Qin Bo-Wei's " Notes to the Reading of the Nei-jing " going to be available

in English?

 

I'm interested in Qin's classmates, Chi Gongzhang and Zang Chengzhang, who

collectively were called the " Three Outstanding Ones " of the Shanghai

medical community.

Is Cheng's writings on Shang han theory/practice going to be translated by

anyone?

 

These early students of Ding Ganren had to memorize many essays and learn

classical Chinese.

They were definitely part of the movement to save Chinese medicine from the

Guomintang govt, who in 1929 tried to abolish Chinese medicine. He was

elected secretary to the group who protested against the resolution and

ultimately saved Chinese medicine from possible extinction.

 

TCM, as is taught in the west is actually very effective for many issues,

that we never see in our private practices...you can go to Chapters 17/18 in

the Beijing " Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion " (CAM) book to see the

diseases we don't encounter in our private practices in the west. I've

tried some of these point protocols for these rarer issues with good effect.

We see mainly pain and stress patients generally, so Master Tung's points

for instance work instantly for pain-relief and then we discard everything

else in TCM as ineffective.

 

For me, my main complaint of TCM is two-fold:

1... a lack of channel and body palpation

2... the lack of Shang han / Jin gui / Nei jing training and practice

 

Both of these points can be remedied by 1. touching the body (most Japanese

schools, Wang Ju-Yi style etc.)

2. by studying the classics in practice (Arnaud Versluys, Craig Mitchell,

books by Paradigm, Blue-Poppy etc.)

 

So, more than a problem with the system, the solution is for us to delve

deeper into the tools at our finger-tips.

 

The major complaint of TCM schools in the west is that we don't see more

patients in our TCM training

(less than 10 / day in US vs 50+ in China?)

 

I'm not exactly sure how we can change this, unless we treat people for free

at the TCM school clinics.

 

K

 

2010/2/20 <johnkokko

 

> I'm reading the " Qin Bo-Wei Anthology " trans by Charles Chace. Paradigm

> Publications

> The Intro and Bio are revealing and inspiring to all of us to work more

> diligently.

> Qin Bo Wei believed that everyone should revere the 4 medical classics,

> just as the 4 Confucian/Meng zi classics.

> The translated Bio doesn't mention that Qin Bo-Wei was sent to scrub

> toilets, but it does mention that he became sick

> after the cultural revolution... maybe the bio authors were trying to save

> their own skins?

> Funny fact was that Qin Bo-Wei was a chain smoker and wrote ideas down on

> the back of cigarette papers.

> He had so many of these little " sticky " notes, there were books made and

> " burned " from them.

>

> The essay on Liver pathologies is very interesting, in light of the fact

> that modern TCM doesn't really teach about

> Liver depression in comparison to Liver Qi, Liver Heat vs Liver Fire or

> Liver yang deficiency.

> Qin Bo Wei writes that it is critical to know the distinctions.

>

> Jason or others, could you help elucidate the difference between " Liver

> Qi " vs " Liver depression " patterns?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:15 AM, <

> > wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Hugo,

>>

>> I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

>> possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

>> doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption " began. You want to

>> look

>> at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that

>> they

>> will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is very

>> vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just a

>> some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I

>> personally

>> think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors were

>> practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find it

>> difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

>>

>> TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

>> changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

>> younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out, really

>> have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely

>> heavily

>> on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

>>

>> You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from

>> Qin

>> Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

>> considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on this

>> listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

>> because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking based

>> on

>> the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

>> together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

>> weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

>>

>> However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

>> years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to start

>> haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis. Qin,

>> being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time,

>> spoke

>> out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the process

>> and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not that

>> he

>> did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he

>> just

>> thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by incorporating

>> such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

>> Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

>> being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

>> after.

>>

>> Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?). The

>> book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

>> print, that my teacher (one of Qin's main students) had hidden away. So

>> hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But

>> if

>> you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin's thinking and how he taught I

>> recommend checking out his ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒªÇ³½â¡£ This is his commentary on the

Essential

>> Knowledge from the Inner Classic ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒª(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

>> interest in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic, hence having the nickname

>> of

>> Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying

>> them

>> to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

>> this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough

>> for

>> web publication.

>>

>> He actually wrote his first book (Çå´úÃûÒ½Ò½»°¾«»ª) at the age of I think

18 and

>> it

>> is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

>> enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

>> exact title slipping my mind at the moment...

>>

>> Hope this helps,

>>

>> -Jason

>>

>>

>>

>>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>]

>> On Behalf Of Hugo

>> Ramiro

>> Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

>> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

>> Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

>>

>> Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education

>> did

>> not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am not

>> sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues

>> who

>> are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I

>> mentioned.

>> Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

>> appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular

>> texts

>> you consider most important.

>>

>> The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

>> because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

>> learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

>>

>> Until next time,

>>

>> Hugo

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi John:

 

--John-

So, more than a problem with the system, the solution is for us to delve

deeper into the tools at our finger-tips.

---

 

I agree completely; this is our main responsibility.

 

--John-

The major complaint of TCM schools in the west is that we don't see more

patients in our TCM training

(less than 10 / day in US vs 50+ in China?)

---

 

I believe that this can change if we, as a profession, continue to delve more

deeply into established knowledge and theory. It is our efficacy that will draw

patients toward us, inexorably, unavoidably.

 

Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Turiya,

 

85 yr woman... Herpes zoster for 6 months... severe itching... rash around

mid-back/ribs/mid-abdomen

Prick the skin around the herpes zoster with a 3 edge-needle to cause a

little bleeding... used 7 star instead

Needled LI 11, SP 10, UB 40, GB 34, LV 3

2 treatments/ week for 2 weeks... resolved.

 

59 yr woman... Swelling, pain, redness of right eye for 2 days

Needled GB 20, Tai yang, LI 4, LV 2 (did not needle UB 1)...

Pain relieved immediately... relief lasted 24 hours... then returned after

she ate spicy pasta and chai tea

(it was my mistake to not inform her to stay away from all heating foods)

Treated patient again with same treatment, plus added bleeding of SI 1...

resolved.

 

31 yr woman... " intestinal abscess " appendicitis

hospitalized for pain.. scheduled for appendectomy

Needled ST 25, LI 11, Lanweixue-ST 37, LI 4 (added ST 44)

Pain relieved immediately... did not need surgery

Pain returned 2 weeks later... took herbs... resolved.

 

These are all CAM prescriptions from Chap 17/18.

I respected TCM a lot more after teaching review classes where I had to

master all of these acu-rxs.

There is something profound in just knowing something well, even if it's

government issue.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

2010/2/20 Turiya Hill <turiya

 

>

>

> John

>

> Which " rarer issues " have you successfully treated with these protocols?

> Perhaps an example or two and with the point protocols. I would be grateful.

> And with what treatment frequency( daily, twice/weekly ? )

>

> Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

>

> -

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:16 AM

> Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

>

> Jason,

> Is Qin Bo-Wei's " Notes to the Reading of the Nei-jing " going to be

> available

> in English?

>

> I'm interested in Qin's classmates, Chi Gongzhang and Zang Chengzhang, who

> collectively were called the " Three Outstanding Ones " of the Shanghai

> medical community.

> Is Cheng's writings on Shang han theory/practice going to be translated by

> anyone?

>

> These early students of Ding Ganren had to memorize many essays and learn

> classical Chinese.

> They were definitely part of the movement to save Chinese medicine from the

> Guomintang govt, who in 1929 tried to abolish Chinese medicine. He was

> elected secretary to the group who protested against the resolution and

> ultimately saved Chinese medicine from possible extinction.

>

> TCM, as is taught in the west is actually very effective for many issues,

> that we never see in our private practices...you can go to Chapters 17/18

> in

> the Beijing " Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion " (CAM) book to see the

> diseases we don't encounter in our private practices in the west. I've

> tried some of these point protocols for these rarer issues with good

> effect.

> We see mainly pain and stress patients generally, so Master Tung's points

> for instance work instantly for pain-relief and then we discard everything

> else in TCM as ineffective.

>

> For me, my main complaint of TCM is two-fold:

> 1... a lack of channel and body palpation

> 2... the lack of Shang han / Jin gui / Nei jing training and practice

>

> Both of these points can be remedied by 1. touching the body (most Japanese

> schools, Wang Ju-Yi style etc.)

> 2. by studying the classics in practice (Arnaud Versluys, Craig Mitchell,

> books by Paradigm, Blue-Poppy etc.)

>

> So, more than a problem with the system, the solution is for us to delve

> deeper into the tools at our finger-tips.

>

> The major complaint of TCM schools in the west is that we don't see more

> patients in our TCM training

> (less than 10 / day in US vs 50+ in China?)

>

> I'm not exactly sure how we can change this, unless we treat people for

> free

> at the TCM school clinics.

>

> K

>

> 2010/2/20 <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> > I'm reading the " Qin Bo-Wei Anthology " trans by Charles Chace. Paradigm

> > Publications

> > The Intro and Bio are revealing and inspiring to all of us to work more

> > diligently.

> > Qin Bo Wei believed that everyone should revere the 4 medical classics,

> > just as the 4 Confucian/Meng zi classics.

> > The translated Bio doesn't mention that Qin Bo-Wei was sent to scrub

> > toilets, but it does mention that he became sick

> > after the cultural revolution... maybe the bio authors were trying to

> save

> > their own skins?

> > Funny fact was that Qin Bo-Wei was a chain smoker and wrote ideas down on

> > the back of cigarette papers.

> > He had so many of these little " sticky " notes, there were books made and

> > " burned " from them.

> >

> > The essay on Liver pathologies is very interesting, in light of the fact

> > that modern TCM doesn't really teach about

> > Liver depression in comparison to Liver Qi, Liver Heat vs Liver Fire or

> > Liver yang deficiency.

> > Qin Bo Wei writes that it is critical to know the distinctions.

> >

> > Jason or others, could you help elucidate the difference between " Liver

> > Qi " vs " Liver depression " patterns?

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:15 AM, <

> > <%40Chinese Medicine>>

> wrote:

> >

> >>

> >>

> >> Hugo,

> >>

> >> I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

> >> possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

> >> doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption " began. You want to

> >> look

> >> at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that

> >> they

> >> will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is

> very

> >> vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just

> a

> >> some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I

> >> personally

> >> think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors

> were

> >> practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find

> it

> >> difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

> >>

> >> TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

> >> changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

> >> younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out,

> really

> >> have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely

> >> heavily

> >> on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

> >>

> >> You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from

> >> Qin

> >> Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

> >> considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on

> this

> >> listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

> >> because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking

> based

> >> on

> >> the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

> >> together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

> >> weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

> >>

> >> However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

> >> years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to

> start

> >> haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis.

> Qin,

> >> being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time,

> >> spoke

> >> out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the

> process

> >> and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not

> that

> >> he

> >> did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he

> >> just

> >> thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by

> incorporating

> >> such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

> >> Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

> >> being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

> >> after.

> >>

> >> Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?).

> The

> >> book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

> >> print, that my teacher (one of Qin's main students) had hidden away. So

> >> hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But

> >> if

> >> you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin's thinking and how he taught

> I

> >> recommend checking out his ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒªÇ³½â¡£ This is his commentary on the

> Essential

> >> Knowledge from the Inner Classic ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒª(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

> >> interest in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic, hence having the

> nickname

> >> of

> >> Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying

> >> them

> >> to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

> >> this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough

> >> for

> >> web publication.

> >>

> >> He actually wrote his first book (Çå´úÃûÒ½Ò½»°¾«»ª) at the age of I think

18 and

> >> it

> >> is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

> >> enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

> >> exact title slipping my mind at the moment...

> >>

> >> Hope this helps,

> >>

> >> -Jason

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> >>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>]

>

> >> On Behalf Of Hugo

> >> Ramiro

> >> Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

> >> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> >> Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

> >>

> >> Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education

> >> did

> >> not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am

> not

> >> sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues

> >> who

> >> are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I

> >> mentioned.

> >> Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

> >> appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular

> >> texts

> >> you consider most important.

> >>

> >> The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

> >> because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

> >> learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

> >>

> >> Until next time,

> >>

> >> Hugo

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason I think the title you’re talking about is 金匮è¦ç•¥ç®€é‡ŠConcise

explanations of Essential Prescriptions of the Golden Coffer. I bought the

complete compendium of famous Medical works by Qin Bowei for about 700 NT 23 US

秦伯未医学å著全书. Really a great book. I would also recommend

anything by 岳美中。 These guys were highly regarded physicians of their

time.

Gabe Fuentes

--- On Sat, 2/20/10, wrote:

 

 

 

TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:15 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo,

 

I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption†began. You want to look

at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that they

will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is very

vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just a

some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I personally

think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors were

practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find it

difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

 

TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out, really

have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely heavily

on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

 

You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from Qin

Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on this

listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking based on

the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

 

However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to start

haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis. Qin,

being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time, spoke

out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the process

and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not that he

did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he just

thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by incorporating

such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

after.

 

Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?) . The

book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

print, that my teacher (one of Qin’s main students) had hidden away. So

hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But if

you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin’s thinking and how he taught I

recommend checking out his 内ç»çŸ¥è¦æµ…解。 This is his commentary on the

Essential

Knowledge from the Inner Classic 内ç»çŸ¥è¦(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a deep

interest in the Yellow Emperor’s Inner Classic, hence having the nickname of

Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying them

to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough for

web publication.

 

He actually wrote his first book (清代å医医è¯ç²¾åŽ) at the age of I

think 18 and it

is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

exact title slipping my mind at the moment…

 

Hope this helps,

 

-Jason

 

www.ChineseMedicine Doc.com

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine

[Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Hugo

Ramiro

Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

 

Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

 

Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education did

not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am not

sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues who

are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I mentioned.

Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular texts

you consider most important.

 

The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

 

Until next time,

 

Hugo

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gabriel,

Great to hear from you. A book of 岳美中 Yue Mei-zhong's case histories

is available in English from PMPH. He was obviously steeped in the Shang Han

Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Supposedly he spent 45 days every year studying those two

texts. .

 

 

On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> Hi Jason I think the title you’re talking about is 金匮è¦ç•¥ç®€é‡ŠConcise

explanations of Essential Prescriptions of the Golden Coffer. I bought the

complete compendium of famous Medical works by Qin Bowei for about 700 NT 23 US

秦伯未医学å著全书. Really a great book. I would also recommend

anything by 岳美中。 These guys were highly regarded physicians of their

time.

> Gabe Fuentes

> --- On Sat, 2/20/10, wrote:

>

>

> TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

> Chinese Medicine

> Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:15 AM

>

>

>

> Hugo,

> .

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Z’ev

I was not aware that PMPH had done a translation of Yue MeiZhong, I hope is a

good translation. He is definitely an important figure in Chinese medicine. All

practitioners should read what he has to say regarding various aspects of theory

and clinical practice, unfortunately most of this information is not in his case

history text. His most famous work is岳美中醫學文集 this is a collection

of all his writings regarding his understanding of Chinese medical theory and

thoughts on the classics. Books like these are the types of books that should be

translated for westerners in order to grasp and  understand how native

practitioners si kao or ponder as well as understand and also explain ideas

within a Chinese medical context. Another physician that I will mention is

章真如 Zhang zhenru he wrote a book called ten discussion on

by Zhang zhenru, again great explanations of classical theories and ideas as

well as treatment methods

very detailed, if these books where translated into English it would really

make a great impact on the understanding of this medicine.  Michael Fitzgerald

did a great translation of Chen Rui-Chun’s, The Clinical Application of Shang

Han Formulas, also by PMPH. I’ve seen this translation and compared it to the

Chinese version that I have and is very well translated; I have seen other PMPH

translations but unfortunately are not so good.  I’m really surprised that

non of these publishing houses have not translated anything by Liu duzhou

刘渡舟 another famous SHL scholar. All these physicians started practicing

Chinese medicine before the Cultural Revolution and of course had a very clear

understanding of the differing Chinese medical trends and main stream ideas of

the time.  I really believe that this should be the starting point of any

serious Chinese medical practitioner; they should try to understand these

different practitioners’ points

of view and go from there.

 

Gabe Fuentes

 

--- On Sun, 2/21/10, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

<zrosenbe

Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 21, 2010, 12:02 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gabriel,

Great to hear from you. A book of 岳美中 Yue Mei-zhong's case histories is

available in English from PMPH. He was obviously steeped in the Shang Han

Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Supposedly he spent 45 days every year studying those two

texts. .

 

 

On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> Hi Jason I think the title you’re talking about is 金匮è¦ç•¥ç®€é‡ŠConcise

explanations of Essential Prescriptions of the Golden Coffer. I bought the

complete compendium of famous Medical works by Qin Bowei for about 700 NT 23 US

秦伯未医学å著全书. Really a great book. I would also recommend

anything by 岳美中。 These guys were highly regarded physicians of their

time.

> Gabe Fuentes

> --- On Sat, 2/20/10, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> wrote:

>

> <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

> TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

>

> Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:15 AM

>

>

>

> Hugo,

> .

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Yue Mei-Zhong does use many of Zhang Zhong Jing's formulas, often

without modification at all. (Colllected case studies published by PMPH)

Here is a list of the diseases/conditions encountered in the book:

 

urinary calculus, ureteral calculus, renal calculus, chronic pyelonephritis,

chronic nephritis, nephritis and secondary edema, albuminuria w/ chronic

nephritis,

uremia, chronic hematuria, abdominal distention, abdominal pain,

halitosis and thunder-like borborygmus, wind-diarrhea, retention of

dry-feces,

gastric abscess caused by antral gastritis, Ben tun syndrome,

chronic cholecystitis, acute hepatitis, abdominal distention caused by

hepatitis,

distention and fullness caused by jaundice, chronic hepatitis, edema,

palpitations and intermittent pulses, chest impediment sx,,

hypertension and vertigo, hypertensive encephalopathy, vertigo,

refractory epilepsy, headaches, menstrual headaches,

peripheral neuritis, Bi sx, impediment sx, hemiplegia, postpartum blood

impediment,

bone impediment and osteoporosis, tremor, hysteria, insomnia, low grade

fever,

warm-heat dz, darmp-warm sx, inflammation of the trachea, difficult

expectoration,

chronic inflammation of the trachea with cough and dyspnea, protracted

cough,

bronchial panting, lung abscess, cavernous pulmonary TB,

Type B encephalitis, Encephalitis B, malaria, septicemia, blood stasis sx

trauma,

masses due to blood stasis, arterial spasm in the extremities, chilblain,

multiple lipoma and chronic lymphadenitis, habitual sores and furuncles,

chronic eczema, spontaneous sweating sx, hair loss, nasal bleeding,

bruxism, infertility, weakness sx, KD yang def differentiation, SP def case

 

K

 

 

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:02 PM, <zrosenbewrote:

 

>

>

> Gabriel,

> Great to hear from you. A book of 岳美中 Yue Mei-zhong's case histories is

> available in English from PMPH. He was obviously steeped in the Shang Han

> Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Supposedly he spent 45 days every year studying those

> two texts. .

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank You John

Turiya

-

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, February 20, 2010 6:41 PM

Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

 

 

 

Turiya,

 

85 yr woman... Herpes zoster for 6 months... severe itching... rash around

mid-back/ribs/mid-abdomen

Prick the skin around the herpes zoster with a 3 edge-needle to cause a

little bleeding... used 7 star instead

Needled LI 11, SP 10, UB 40, GB 34, LV 3

2 treatments/ week for 2 weeks... resolved.

 

59 yr woman... Swelling, pain, redness of right eye for 2 days

Needled GB 20, Tai yang, LI 4, LV 2 (did not needle UB 1)...

Pain relieved immediately... relief lasted 24 hours... then returned after

she ate spicy pasta and chai tea

(it was my mistake to not inform her to stay away from all heating foods)

Treated patient again with same treatment, plus added bleeding of SI 1...

resolved.

 

31 yr woman... " intestinal abscess " appendicitis

hospitalized for pain.. scheduled for appendectomy

Needled ST 25, LI 11, Lanweixue-ST 37, LI 4 (added ST 44)

Pain relieved immediately... did not need surgery

Pain returned 2 weeks later... took herbs... resolved.

 

These are all CAM prescriptions from Chap 17/18.

I respected TCM a lot more after teaching review classes where I had to

master all of these acu-rxs.

There is something profound in just knowing something well, even if it's

government issue.

 

K

 

2010/2/20 Turiya Hill <turiya

 

>

>

> John

>

> Which " rarer issues " have you successfully treated with these protocols?

> Perhaps an example or two and with the point protocols. I would be grateful.

> And with what treatment frequency( daily, twice/weekly ? )

>

> Turiya Hill, L.Ac.

>

> -

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:16 AM

> Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

>

> Jason,

> Is Qin Bo-Wei's " Notes to the Reading of the Nei-jing " going to be

> available

> in English?

>

> I'm interested in Qin's classmates, Chi Gongzhang and Zang Chengzhang, who

> collectively were called the " Three Outstanding Ones " of the Shanghai

> medical community.

> Is Cheng's writings on Shang han theory/practice going to be translated by

> anyone?

>

> These early students of Ding Ganren had to memorize many essays and learn

> classical Chinese.

> They were definitely part of the movement to save Chinese medicine from the

> Guomintang govt, who in 1929 tried to abolish Chinese medicine. He was

> elected secretary to the group who protested against the resolution and

> ultimately saved Chinese medicine from possible extinction.

>

> TCM, as is taught in the west is actually very effective for many issues,

> that we never see in our private practices...you can go to Chapters 17/18

> in

> the Beijing " Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion " (CAM) book to see the

> diseases we don't encounter in our private practices in the west. I've

> tried some of these point protocols for these rarer issues with good

> effect.

> We see mainly pain and stress patients generally, so Master Tung's points

> for instance work instantly for pain-relief and then we discard everything

> else in TCM as ineffective.

>

> For me, my main complaint of TCM is two-fold:

> 1... a lack of channel and body palpation

> 2... the lack of Shang han / Jin gui / Nei jing training and practice

>

> Both of these points can be remedied by 1. touching the body (most Japanese

> schools, Wang Ju-Yi style etc.)

> 2. by studying the classics in practice (Arnaud Versluys, Craig Mitchell,

> books by Paradigm, Blue-Poppy etc.)

>

> So, more than a problem with the system, the solution is for us to delve

> deeper into the tools at our finger-tips.

>

> The major complaint of TCM schools in the west is that we don't see more

> patients in our TCM training

> (less than 10 / day in US vs 50+ in China?)

>

> I'm not exactly sure how we can change this, unless we treat people for

> free

> at the TCM school clinics.

>

> K

>

> 2010/2/20 <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> > I'm reading the " Qin Bo-Wei Anthology " trans by Charles Chace. Paradigm

> > Publications

> > The Intro and Bio are revealing and inspiring to all of us to work more

> > diligently.

> > Qin Bo Wei believed that everyone should revere the 4 medical classics,

> > just as the 4 Confucian/Meng zi classics.

> > The translated Bio doesn't mention that Qin Bo-Wei was sent to scrub

> > toilets, but it does mention that he became sick

> > after the cultural revolution... maybe the bio authors were trying to

> save

> > their own skins?

> > Funny fact was that Qin Bo-Wei was a chain smoker and wrote ideas down on

> > the back of cigarette papers.

> > He had so many of these little " sticky " notes, there were books made and

> > " burned " from them.

> >

> > The essay on Liver pathologies is very interesting, in light of the fact

> > that modern TCM doesn't really teach about

> > Liver depression in comparison to Liver Qi, Liver Heat vs Liver Fire or

> > Liver yang deficiency.

> > Qin Bo Wei writes that it is critical to know the distinctions.

> >

> > Jason or others, could you help elucidate the difference between " Liver

> > Qi " vs " Liver depression " patterns?

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> > On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:15 AM, <

> > <%40Chinese Medicine>>

> wrote:

> >

> >>

> >>

> >> Hugo,

> >>

> >> I have a few moments before work, so I will try to respond as quick as

> >> possible... Yes, a 50-year-old doctor " trained in China " is a) a young

> >> doctor and b) someone trained after the " corruption " began. You want to

> >> look

> >> at the doctors that are around 75 years and up. That is not to say that

> >> they

> >> will know everything that you are talking about. Chinese medicine is

> very

> >> vast and there are many currents, hence any " system " , formalized or just

> a

> >> some lineage, will certainly not be able to include everything. I

> >> personally

> >> think that what TCM is built on looks very similar to how the doctors

> were

> >> practicing in the 10-200 years prior. Hence the reason why always find

> it

> >> difficult to believe that TCM is what killed CM.

> >>

> >> TCM, for better or worse, as we study here in the West has definitely

> >> changed (evolved?) since the early 50s. My personal experience is that

> >> younger doctors in China, except for a few that really seek it out,

> really

> >> have a more watered-down way of practicing Chinese medicine and rely

> >> heavily

> >> on Western medicine diagnosis etc..

> >>

> >> You're wondering about some of texts to read? I recommend anything from

> >> Qin

> >> Bo-Wei or even his teacher Ding Gan-Ren. Qin, as you may know, was

> >> considered the " grandfather of TCM " . Since TCM has such a bad name on

> this

> >> listserv this must be qualified. First, he is considered the grandfather

> >> because he is one of the primary developers of a system of thinking

> based

> >> on

> >> the multiple diverse currents that preceded that time period. He brought

> >> together many ideas into a cohesive way of thinking. This was heavily

> >> weighted on classic texts and his work is nothing short of brilliant.

> >>

> >> However, the story, as you know, does not end there. Over the following

> >> years, heading into the cultural Revolution, there was a big push to

> start

> >> haphazardly incorporating Western medical information and diagnosis.

> Qin,

> >> being one of the most respected clinicians and educators of the time,

> >> spoke

> >> out very loudly to the government committees disagreeing with the

> process

> >> and that one should not water down TCM with such methods. It was not

> that

> >> he

> >> did not believe in Western medicine, he did think it was important, he

> >> just

> >> thought that Chinese medicine should stand on its own and by

> incorporating

> >> such information one can easily lose the essence of Chinese medicine.

> >> Because of this, when the cultural revolution hit, Qin was demoted from

> >> being a high-ranking doctor and sent to clean toilets. He died shortly

> >> after.

> >>

> >> Furthermore, much of his original written work was lost (destroyed?).

> The

> >> book I am working on is actually some of this material, currently not in

> >> print, that my teacher (one of Qin's main students) had hidden away. So

> >> hopefully in the next year or so this will be available to the West. But

> >> if

> >> you want to get a sense of the depth of Qin's thinking and how he taught

> I

> >> recommend checking out his ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒªÇ³½â¡£ This is his commentary on the

> Essential

> >> Knowledge from the Inner Classic ÄÚ¾­ÖªÒª(Nei Jing Zhi Yao). He had a

deep

> >> interest in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic, hence having the

> nickname

> >> of

> >> Qin Nei-Jing. He was a master of taking theoretical ideas and applying

> >> them

> >> to the clinic. Charles Chace and I have translated the second chapter of

> >> this book, on yin and yang, and hopefully I can get it cleaned up enough

> >> for

> >> web publication.

> >>

> >> He actually wrote his first book (Çå´úÃûÒ½Ò½»°¾«»ª) at the age of I think

18 and

> >> it

> >> is still considered a " classic " . This is also worth checking out. I also

> >> enjoy the book he wrote commenting on the Golden Cabinet (jin gui). The

> >> exact title slipping my mind at the moment...

> >>

> >> Hope this helps,

> >>

> >> -Jason

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> >>

[Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\

e%40>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>]

>

> >> On Behalf Of Hugo

> >> Ramiro

> >> Friday, February 19, 2010 7:07 AM

> >> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> >> Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai

> >>

> >> Jason, thanks for your review of my post. I admit that my TCM education

> >> did

> >> not come from one of the founding members or their close cohort. I am

> not

> >> sure it has to do with modern education in the west, because colleagues

> >> who

> >> are about 50 and trained in China had no idea about the things I

> >> mentioned.

> >> Thanks to you I have a renewed interest in the first TCM texts and would

> >> appreciate it if you could provide the names of some of the particular

> >> texts

> >> you consider most important.

> >>

> >> The only reason I compare " original TCM " to western modern education is

> >> because I have had such a different experience in the two traditions I

> >> learned. One was deep, and the other not so much.

> >>

> >> Until next time,

> >>

> >> Hugo

> >>

> >>

[Guest guest]

Turiya,

my pleasure. I hear that you're a great doc, from my friends in Nevada

city.

 

K

 

 

 

2010/2/21 Turiya Hill <turiya

 

>

>

> Thank You John

> Turiya

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you brother for that reflection. I don't think of myself as a great

doctor....or even a doctor....i'm too aware of my deficiencies......more

honestly a mix of healer/health care provider/hard worker/eternal student.

And your friends are....?

 

gratefully

 

Turiya

-

Chinese Medicine

Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:22 AM

Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

 

 

 

Turiya,

my pleasure. I hear that you're a great doc, from my friends in Nevada

city.

 

K

 

2010/2/21 Turiya Hill <turiya

 

>

>

> Thank You John

> Turiya

>

>

 

[Guest guest]

Gabriel,

The Yue Mei-zhong text was very well done. A friend of mine has translated

some of Liu Du-zhou's case histories, very interesting stuff. .

 

 

On Feb 21, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

 

> Hi Z’ev

> I was not aware that PMPH had done a translation of Yue MeiZhong, I hope is a

good translation. He is definitely an important figure in Chinese medicine. All

practitioners should read what he has to say regarding various aspects of theory

and clinical practice, unfortunately most of this information is not in his case

history text. His most famous work is岳美中醫學文集 this is a collection

of all his writings regarding his understanding of Chinese medical theory and

thoughts on the classics. Books like these are the types of books that should be

translated for westerners in order to grasp and understand how native

practitioners si kao or ponder as well as understand and also explain ideas

within a Chinese medical context. Another physician that I will mention is

章真如 Zhang zhenru he wrote a book called ten discussion on

by Zhang zhenru, again great explanations of classical theories and ideas as

well as treatment methods

> very detailed, if these books where translated into English it would really

make a great impact on the understanding of this medicine. Michael Fitzgerald

did a great translation of Chen Rui-Chun’s, The Clinical Application of Shang

Han Formulas, also by PMPH. I’ve seen this translation and compared it to the

Chinese version that I have and is very well translated; I have seen other PMPH

translations but unfortunately are not so good. I’m really surprised that non

of these publishing houses have not translated anything by Liu duzhou 刘渡舟

another famous SHL scholar. All these physicians started practicing Chinese

medicine before the Cultural Revolution and of course had a very clear

understanding of the differing Chinese medical trends and main stream ideas of

the time. I really believe that this should be the starting point of any

serious Chinese medical practitioner; they should try to understand these

different practitioners’ points

> of view and go from there.

>

> Gabe Fuentes

>

> --- On Sun, 2/21/10, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe

> Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

> Chinese Medicine

> Sunday, February 21, 2010, 12:02 AM

>

>

>

> Gabriel,

> Great to hear from you. A book of 岳美中 Yue Mei-zhong's case histories is

available in English from PMPH. He was obviously steeped in the Shang Han

Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Supposedly he spent 45 days every year studying those two

texts. .

>

>

> On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

>

> > Hi Jason I think the title you’re talking about is

金匮è¦ç•¥ç®€é‡ŠConcise explanations of Essential Prescriptions of the Golden

Coffer. I bought the complete compendium of famous Medical works by Qin Bowei

for about 700 NT 23 US 秦伯未医学å著全书. Really a great book. I would

also recommend anything by 岳美中。 These guys were highly regarded

physicians of their time.

> > Gabe Fuentes

> > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

wrote:

> >

> > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

> > TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

> >

> > Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:15 AM

> >

> >

> >

> > Hugo,

> > .

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

These case studies translations are extremely helpful. PMPH has been making

some very useful books lately.

Isn't PMPH the medical publishing company of the communist party?

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 1:09 PM, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

>

>

> Gabriel,

> The Yue Mei-zhong text was very well done. A friend of mine has translated

> some of Liu Du-zhou's case histories, very interesting stuff. .

>

>

>

> On Feb 21, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

>

> > Hi Z’ev

> > I was not aware that PMPH had done a translation of Yue MeiZhong, I hope

> is a good translation. He is definitely an important figure in Chinese

> medicine. All practitioners should read what he has to say regarding various

> aspects of theory and clinical practice, unfortunately most of this

> information is not in his case history text. His most famous work

is岳美中醫學文集

> this is a collection of all his writings regarding his understanding of

> Chinese medical theory and thoughts on the classics. Books like these are

> the types of books that should be translated for westerners in order to

> grasp and understand how native practitioners si kao or ponder as well as

> understand and also explain ideas within a Chinese medical context. Another

> physician that I will mention is 章真如 Zhang zhenru he wrote a book called

ten

> discussion on by Zhang zhenru, again great explanations of

> classical theories and ideas as well as treatment methods

> > very detailed, if these books where translated into English it would

> really make a great impact on the understanding of this medicine. Michael

> Fitzgerald did a great translation of Chen Rui-Chun’s, The Clinical

> Application of Shang Han Formulas, also by PMPH. I’ve seen this translation

> and compared it to the Chinese version that I have and is very well

> translated; I have seen other PMPH translations but unfortunately are not so

> good. I’m really surprised that non of these publishing houses have not

> translated anything by Liu duzhou 刘渡舟 another famous SHL scholar. All

these

> physicians started practicing Chinese medicine before the Cultural

> Revolution and of course had a very clear understanding of the differing

> Chinese medical trends and main stream ideas of the time. I really believe

> that this should be the starting point of any serious Chinese medical

> practitioner; they should try to understand these different practitioners’

> points

> > of view and go from there.

> >

> > Gabe Fuentes

> >

> > --- On Sun, 2/21/10,

<zrosenbe<zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> wrote:

> >

> > <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>>

> > Re: TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Sunday, February 21, 2010, 12:02 AM

> >

> >

> >

> > Gabriel,

> > Great to hear from you. A book of 岳美中 Yue Mei-zhong's case histories

is

> available in English from PMPH. He was obviously steeped in the Shang Han

> Lun/Jin Gui Yao Lue. Supposedly he spent 45 days every year studying those

> two texts. .

> >

> >

> > On Feb 20, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote:

> >

> > > Hi Jason I think the title you’re talking about is

金匮è¦ç•¥ç®€é‡ŠConcise

> explanations of Essential Prescriptions of the Golden Coffer. I bought the

> complete compendium of famous Medical works by Qin Bowei for about 700 NT 23

> US 秦伯未医学å著全书. Really a great book. I would also recommend

anything by 岳美中。

> These guys were highly regarded physicians of their time.

> > > Gabe Fuentes

> > > --- On Sat, 2/20/10, <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

> wrote:

> > >

> > > <@chinesemed icinedoc. com>

> > > TCM, where did it come from? Qin Bo-Wei...

> > >

> > > Saturday, February 20, 2010, 8:15 AM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hugo,

> > > .

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have worked on two books for PMPH in the last year. PMPH has been improving

their system of translation and I believe all of us have been working very hard

to provide good books.

I am willing to work long and hard on my books for the same reason I do it for

my students. PMPH is the biggest publisher of medical books in China and they

have a vast resource to draw upon. I know the editors in Beijing have been

pushing very hard to create quality books and I am very pleased, as are others

apparently, with the recent results.

 

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> These case studies translations are extremely helpful. PMPH has been making

> some very useful books lately.

> Isn't PMPH the medical publishing company of the communist party?

>

> K

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko@>

wrote:

> >

> > These case studies translations are extremely helpful. PMPH has been making

> > some very useful books lately.

> > Isn't PMPH the medical publishing company of the communist party?

 

During the communist era, there was basically a government monopoly on medical

publishing in the PRC. Like most of the former state-run monopolies of the

past, medical publishing is now a private industry and PMPH is a private

company. In the old days, there were multiple branches of PMPH, in Beijing,

Shanghai, Guangzhou, etc. Now the former divisions of PMPH like Shanghai and

Guangzhou are separate enterprises, they are different private medical

publishing houses even though they were once just different divisions of the

same big company.

 

Just because PMPH was once connected to the government is no reason to get

paranoid. PMPH is the largest TCM publisher in China, they publish all manners

of classical texts and modern texts, many of which are quite excellent. If you

look at the literature in places like Taiwan and Hong Kong that had no influence

of communism, you will see that there isn't much difference between the scope or

content of the books available. If anything, mainland China has far more

material in publication, but the fundamental classics and historical texts

aren't any different from one region to the next.

 

Eric