Strange Circle in the Kidney Channel - NEW FINDINGS

[Guest guest]

Dear Hugo, John, Jason, Michael, Kath, Gabriel and... everyone else who is

interested like me to light the MESURABLE reality of the Acupuncture Meridian

(or channel) System.

Please remember that dr. Felix Mann, founder of Medica Acupuncture Association

and president of the British Medical Acupuncture Association after 30 years of

theory and practice DECLARED:

 

" The traditional acupuncture points are no more real than the black spots a

drunkard sees in front of his eyes. " (p. 14)

and…

" The meridians of acupuncture are no more real than the meridians of geography.

If someone were to get a spade and tried to dig up the Greenwich meridian, he

might end up in a lunatic asylum. Perhaps the same fate should await those

doctors who believe in acupuncture meridians. "

 

I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse, though my work is absolutely

independent and I knew his name after my first finding.

 

I have updated my pages on the strange circle in the kidney channel. I did other

findings that corroborate my theory that Ancient Chinese Doctors saw the

channels. I think that no experiment has ever demonstrate the channels and

points, simply because no adequate theory had been built before.

After my findings the acupuncture time related circulatory system seems to be a

dynamic grid that directs the morphogenesis of the embryo in the three

dimensions plus the time, and the health's maintaining in the further ages.

Morphogenesis and Morphomantaining. In truth, anatomically, macroscopically,

microscopically, histologically, psychologically, physiologically, ecceterally

:-) speaking... Disease is not but a various grade of qualitative and

quantitative loss of shape in whatever level or age.

 

If do anyone ask me to answer the famous paradox:

" Which came first, the chicken or the egg? "

I'd answer: " They came both first, chicken as form and egg as content.

 

Please, give me suggestions and criticism to continue toward this direction or

to correct the target.

 

http://tinyurl.com/ygrkxf3

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

---

 

Hugo

[Guest guest]

Steaphano,

 

You might find some answers to your questions by looking up the works of Dr. Kim

Bonghan (http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=31918) and

also more recently Dr. Kuang Sup Soh for channel research and also Dr. Kikuo

Chishima for work on embrology/hemotology. For many more citations on this

info, you can check out http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:16177995. Hope this is

useful.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

stefanomarcelli

Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:57:39 +0100

Strange Circle in the Kidney Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

 

 

Dear Hugo, John, Jason, Michael, Kath, Gabriel and... everyone else who is

interested like me to light the MESURABLE reality of the Acupuncture Meridian

(or channel) System.

Please remember that dr. Felix Mann, founder of Medica Acupuncture Association

and president of the British Medical Acupuncture Association after 30 years of

theory and practice DECLARED:

 

" The traditional acupuncture points are no more real than the black spots a

drunkard sees in front of his eyes. " (p. 14)

and…

" The meridians of acupuncture are no more real than the meridians of geography.

If someone were to get a spade and tried to dig up the Greenwich meridian, he

might end up in a lunatic asylum. Perhaps the same fate should await those

doctors who believe in acupuncture meridians. "

 

I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse, though my work is absolutely

independent and I knew his name after my first finding.

 

I have updated my pages on the strange circle in the kidney channel. I did other

findings that corroborate my theory that Ancient Chinese Doctors saw the

channels. I think that no experiment has ever demonstrate the channels and

points, simply because no adequate theory had been built before.

After my findings the acupuncture time related circulatory system seems to be a

dynamic grid that directs the morphogenesis of the embryo in the three

dimensions plus the time, and the health's maintaining in the further ages.

Morphogenesis and Morphomantaining. In truth, anatomically, macroscopically,

microscopically, histologically, psychologically, physiologically, ecceterally

:-) speaking... Disease is not but a various grade of qualitative and

quantitative loss of shape in whatever level or age.

 

If do anyone ask me to answer the famous paradox:

" Which came first, the chicken or the egg? "

I'd answer: " They came both first, chicken as form and egg as content.

 

Please, give me suggestions and criticism to continue toward this direction or

to correct the target.

 

http://tinyurl.com/ygrkxf3

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

---

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all:

 

-Stefano--

I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse,

---

 

I never had the .. to call Mann on it, but it really is an evil curse, isn't

it?

I'm going to go get my voodoo doll...

 

 

Hugo

 

(p.s. - have any of you seen the racist cartoon of a chinaman acupuncture quack

in his book? Repulsive)

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stefano,

Thanks again for your research...

 

Have you looked into the alternate location of KD 6, which is about 1 cun

below the TCM KD 6?

Kiiko Matsumoto mentions that this point could be more closely aligned with

the uterus,

just as KD 5 (xi-cleft) point is (from its functional aspects).

 

From a functional aspect, KD 6 tonifies yin and Qi, but not jing, from what

has been written down historically.

KD 3 can tonify Qi, yin, yang and jing and rightly deserves its title as the

yuan source point for the foot shao yin channel.

According to the classics, you can leave a needle in KD 3 for as long as you

want to tonify the KD.

I can't see any of the other points on the lower channel that could take its

place from a functional perspective.

 

KD 3 and KD 6 both show edema first before any other point areas on the

lower KD channel.

KD 6 belongs to the adrenals according to Kiiko Matsumoto (Nagano school).

 

For women, what is the trajectory that you hypothesize Qi flows on the lower

KD channel?

KD 2, 6, 5, 4, 3, 7, 8 etc?

 

Ciao,

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:57 AM, stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli

> wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Hugo, John, Jason, Michael, Kath, Gabriel and... everyone else who is

> interested like me to light the MESURABLE reality of the Acupuncture

> Meridian (or channel) System.

> Please remember that dr. Felix Mann, founder of Medica Acupuncture

> Association and president of the British Medical Acupuncture Association

> after 30 years of theory and practice DECLARED:

>

> " The traditional acupuncture points are no more real than the black spots a

> drunkard sees in front of his eyes. " (p. 14)

> and…

> " The meridians of acupuncture are no more real than the meridians of

> geography. If someone were to get a spade and tried to dig up the Greenwich

> meridian, he might end up in a lunatic asylum. Perhaps the same fate should

> await those doctors who believe in acupuncture meridians. "

>

> I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse, though my work is

> absolutely independent and I knew his name after my first finding.

>

> I have updated my pages on the strange circle in the kidney channel. I did

> other findings that corroborate my theory that Ancient Chinese Doctors saw

> the channels. I think that no experiment has ever demonstrate the channels

> and points, simply because no adequate theory had been built before.

> After my findings the acupuncture time related circulatory system seems to

> be a dynamic grid that directs the morphogenesis of the embryo in the three

> dimensions plus the time, and the health's maintaining in the further ages.

> Morphogenesis and Morphomantaining. In truth, anatomically,

> macroscopically, microscopically, histologically, psychologically,

> physiologically, ecceterally :-) speaking... Disease is not but a various

> grade of qualitative and quantitative loss of shape in whatever level or

> age.

>

> If do anyone ask me to answer the famous paradox:

> " Which came first, the chicken or the egg? "

> I'd answer: " They came both first, chicken as form and egg as content.

>

> Please, give me suggestions and criticism to continue toward this direction

> or to correct the target.

>

> http://tinyurl.com/ygrkxf3

>

> Ciao,

>

> Stefano Marcelli

> Darfo Boario Terme BS

>

> ---

>

> Hugo

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> KD 6 belongs to the adrenals according to Kiiko Matsumoto (Nagano school).

>

 

John - I think we have to be a little careful here - The Kiiko/Nagano

'adrenal treatment' can involve an assortment of Kidney 3, 6, 7, 9, 10 and 27,

depending on a wide range of palpatory presentations and patient histories. So

I don't think its accurate to say 'Kidney 6 belongs to the adrenals' in this

system so much as to say a variety of Kidney meridian protocols stimulate the

adrenal system.

 

regards

Daniel

[Guest guest]

Thank Mike for the links.

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

[Chinese Medicine

om] On Behalf Of mike Bowser

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:22 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

RE: Strange Circle in the Kidney

Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

Steaphano,

 

You might find some answers to your questions by

looking up the works of Dr. Kim Bonghan

(http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article

..php?id=31918) and also more recently Dr. Kuang

Sup Soh for channel research and also Dr. Kikuo

Chishima for work on embrology/hemotology. For

many more citations on this info, you can check

out http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:16177995. Hope

this is useful.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

stefanomarcelli

Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:57:39 +0100

Strange Circle in the Kidney

Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

 

 

Dear Hugo, John, Jason, Michael, Kath, Gabriel

and... everyone else who is interested like me to

light the MESURABLE reality of the Acupuncture

Meridian (or channel) System.

Please remember that dr. Felix Mann, founder of

Medica Acupuncture Association and president of

the British Medical Acupuncture Association after

30 years of theory and practice DECLARED:

 

" The traditional acupuncture points are no more

real than the black spots a drunkard sees in front

of his eyes. " (p. 14)

and…

" The meridians of acupuncture are no more real

than the meridians of geography. If someone were

to get a spade and tried to dig up the Greenwich

meridian, he might end up in a lunatic asylum.

Perhaps the same fate should await those doctors

who believe in acupuncture meridians. "

 

I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse,

though my work is absolutely independent and I

knew his name after my first finding.

 

I have updated my pages on the strange circle in

the kidney channel. I did other findings that

corroborate my theory that Ancient Chinese Doctors

saw the channels. I think that no experiment has

ever demonstrate the channels and points, simply

because no adequate theory had been built before.

After my findings the acupuncture time related

circulatory system seems to be a dynamic grid that

directs the morphogenesis of the embryo in the

three dimensions plus the time, and the health's

maintaining in the further ages.

Morphogenesis and Morphomantaining. In truth,

anatomically, macroscopically, microscopically,

histologically, psychologically, physiologically,

ecceterally :-) speaking... Disease is not but a

various grade of qualitative and quantitative loss

of shape in whatever level or age.

 

If do anyone ask me to answer the famous paradox:

" Which came first, the chicken or the egg? "

I'd answer: " They came both first, chicken as form

and egg as content.

 

Please, give me suggestions and criticism to

continue toward this direction or to correct the

target.

 

http://tinyurl.com/ygrkxf3

 

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

---

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM

protection.

http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click,

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

Traditional_Chinese_

Medicine/join and adjust accordingly.

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any

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Please consider the environment and only print

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ps.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Hugo.

 

I do not believe to curse of non-magician people.

 

Or he had found the way to see channels and

points, and forced by Bigpharma to assume that

stance… (this is idiot conspiracy! J), or he was

frustrated of seeing hundreds of non licensed MD

people practice as acupuncturists in GB and USA

and wanted to abandon to be an acupuncturist

before considered a quacker by his colleagues.

 

I tried really some months ago to talk with him

about my findings in acupuncture and anatomy, but

his wife, speaking a nearly perfect Italian, told

me her husband was ill and no longer practiced

acupuncture and didn’t want to be disturbed.

 

Ciao,

 

 

 

Stefano

 

 

 

Marcelli

 

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

[Chinese Medicine

om] On Behalf Of Hugo Ramiro

Tuesday, February 23, 2010 5:28 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney

Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

 

 

 

Hi all:

 

-Stefano--

I am one who seems to challenge his evil curse,

---

 

I never had the .. to call Mann on it, but it

really is an evil curse, isn't it?

I'm going to go get my voodoo doll...

 

Hugo

 

(p.s. - have any of you seen the racist cartoon of

a chinaman acupuncture quack in his book?

Repulsive)

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Daniel,

that's a good point... but KD 6 is the primary point to activate the

adrenal system,

along with possibly... 3, 7, 9, 10, 16 and 27, opening the Lung channel

(metal is mother of water)

and lateral Lung 5 etc....

 

So, all of this is speculative and we're just throwing ideas out there, but

good clarification

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:47 AM, daniel.schulman

<daniel.schulmanwrote:

 

>

>

>

> > KD 6 belongs to the adrenals according to Kiiko Matsumoto (Nagano

> school).

> >

>

> John - I think we have to be a little careful here - The Kiiko/Nagano

> 'adrenal treatment' can involve an assortment of Kidney 3, 6, 7, 9, 10 and

> 27, depending on a wide range of palpatory presentations and patient

> histories. So I don't think its accurate to say 'Kidney 6 belongs to the

> adrenals' in this system so much as to say a variety of Kidney meridian

> protocols stimulate the adrenal system.

>

> regards

> Daniel

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear John, thank for your question.

 

My statement on the difference between male and

female kidney channel pathways is provocative, in

truth though I have found a logical explanation

for the strange circle, I don't know exactly what

is its real shape. I DON'T SEE IT AT ALL.

In my research I am working neither as a western

clinic nor as an eastern acupuncturist but as an

middle observer. People and books of an effective

old medicine have told me that thumb is the finger

of the lung, and I want to know whether and why

this is true. I could also find that another

finger, and not the thumb, connects with the lung.

For example, I have found Dumai has its own organ

(no book says this), and it is the Sinus node or

the " Heart Electrical System " . Again according to

anatomy, in the list of the back-shu points the

positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the

stomach should come first (not yet published). And

so on.

Probably the very first Chinese doctors saw the

channels, the following ones only copied and

pasted their drawings faithfully book by book,

with some mistakes, that when is singled out

confirms the rightness of the channel theory.

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

 

For women, what is the trajectory that you

hypothesize Qi flows on the lower

KD channel?

KD 2, 6, 5, 4, 3, 7, 8 etc?

 

Ciao,

K

[Guest guest]

Stefano:

Again according to anatomy, in the list of the back-shu points the

positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the stomach should come first

(not yet published).

 

Li Dongyuan:

Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy is moved upwards to

infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

 

Joe:

whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is above the stomach so Pishu

is above Weishu.

Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

 

 

Stefano:

 

Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and it is the Sinus node

 

Joe:

HUH?!?!?!

Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

 

Joe Messey

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If anything, the Du mai seems to coincide with the brain/spinal cord,

along with the nerves that innervate down it

and the cerebro-spinal fluid running through it.

 

Stefano, I think we need to differentiate anatomical locations vs functional

correspondences.

UB 20 functionally corresponds to the TCM spleen/pancreas " pi " ,

while UB 21 corresponds to the TCM stomach " wei " .

Chinese medicine is more of a functional medicine than anatomical one.

 

If we start changing things around from an anatomical perspective,

we would find the liver pulse on the right wrist

and the spleen pulse on the left wrist.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Messey <joe.messey wrote:

 

>

>

> Stefano:

>

> Again according to anatomy, in the list of the back-shu points the

> positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the stomach should come first

> (not yet published).

>

> Li Dongyuan:

> Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy is moved upwards to

> infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

>

> Joe:

> whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is above the stomach so Pishu

> is above Weishu.

> Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

>

> Stefano:

>

>

> Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and it is the Sinus node

>

> Joe:

> HUH?!?!?!

> Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

>

> Joe Messey

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't often contribute to this but I'd like to ask - doesn't

chapter 8 of the Huangdi Neijing seem to treat the Spleen and Stomach as

almost like one organ? When it enumerates the functions of the other Zang,

it talks about just the Zang, but when it comes to the " granary " it talks

about " the spleen and stomach " together... Also, I agree, Chinese medicine

is quite functional and not anatomic - that is also Felix Mann's tragic

error.

 

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:54 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> If anything, the Du mai seems to coincide with the brain/spinal cord,

> along with the nerves that innervate down it

> and the cerebro-spinal fluid running through it.

>

> Stefano, I think we need to differentiate anatomical locations vs

> functional

> correspondences.

> UB 20 functionally corresponds to the TCM spleen/pancreas " pi " ,

> while UB 21 corresponds to the TCM stomach " wei " .

> Chinese medicine is more of a functional medicine than anatomical one.

>

> If we start changing things around from an anatomical perspective,

> we would find the liver pulse on the right wrist

> and the spleen pulse on the left wrist.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

>

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Messey <joe.messey wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> > Again according to anatomy, in the list of the back-shu points the

> > positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the stomach should come

> first

> > (not yet published).

> >

> > Li Dongyuan:

> > Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy is moved upwards to

> > infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

> >

> > Joe:

> > whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is above the stomach so

> Pishu

> > is above Weishu.

> > Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li Dongyuan...who are we to

> believe?

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> >

> > Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and it is the Sinus node

> >

> > Joe:

> > HUH?!?!?!

> > Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

> >

> > Joe Messey

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Joe.

I am here looking for truths because MDs abandoned

left the “Acupuncture Meridian System” alone. Here

I feel to be among intelligent friends.

Please send me the CT image showing the spleen

above the stomach, if you can.

In the abdomen, understanding the back-shu points

list is very hard, because back-shu points are

tiny areas, while organs can be dozens of meters

long. For example, the small intestine occupies

almost all the abdomen above and below the

umbilicus. Its back-shu point is just above the

bladder one, I think this is exact, because in the

standing position some tracts of the small

intestine are always in contact with the bladder

especially when full.

Thank you for the constructive criticism.

Ciao,

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

Chinese Medicine

[Chinese Medicine

om] On Behalf Of Joe Messey

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:08 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney

Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

Stefano:

Again according to anatomy, in the list of the

back-shu points the

positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the

stomach should come first

(not yet published).

 

Li Dongyuan:

Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy

is moved upwards to

infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

 

Joe:

whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is

above the stomach so Pishu

is above Weishu.

Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li

Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

 

Stefano:

 

Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and

it is the Sinus node

 

Joe:

HUH?!?!?!

Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

 

Joe Messey

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

[Guest guest]

John,

I don't want to be an acupuncture teacher, in no

way.

But the only organ possible for the Dumai I could

find following the list of the thoracic organs was

the Sinus Node. And the choice is coherent with

the channel theory. Also Corpus Callosus, spine,

medulla oblongata, septus nasi, philtrum (!!!)and

all thing are on the back and skull, face medial

line till the philtrum can be under the control of

Dumai, but it back-shu point, were " qi infuses "

the pertaining organ, is after and within the

heart back-shu.

Anatomy and function are in strict relationship.

Very friendly, ciao

 

Stefano Marcelli

Darfo Boario Terme BS

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

[Chinese Medicine

om] On Behalf Of

Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:55 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney

Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

If anything, the Du mai seems to coincide with the

brain/spinal cord,

along with the nerves that innervate down it

and the cerebro-spinal fluid running through it.

 

Stefano, I think we need to differentiate

anatomical locations vs functional

correspondences.

UB 20 functionally corresponds to the TCM

spleen/pancreas " pi " ,

while UB 21 corresponds to the TCM stomach " wei " .

Chinese medicine is more of a functional medicine

than anatomical one.

 

If we start changing things around from an

anatomical perspective,

we would find the liver pulse on the right wrist

and the spleen pulse on the left wrist.

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Messey

<joe.messey wrote:

 

>

>

> Stefano:

>

> Again according to anatomy, in the list of the

back-shu points the

> positions of stomach and spleen are inverted,

the stomach should come first

> (not yet published).

>

> Li Dongyuan:

> Once food enters the stomach, its essential

energy is moved upwards to

> infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

>

> Joe:

> whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is

above the stomach so Pishu

> is above Weishu.

> Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li

Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

>

> Stefano:

>

>

> Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and

it is the Sinus node

>

> Joe:

> HUH?!?!?!

> Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

>

> Joe Messey

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been

removed]

 

 

 

---

 

Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at

Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia

for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click,

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

 

 

Traditional_Chinese_

Medicine/join and adjust accordingly.

 

Messages are the property of the author. Any

duplication outside the group requires prior

permission from the author.

 

Please consider the environment and only print

this message if absolutely necessary.

Links

 

Traditional_Chinese_

Medicine/

 

Traditional_Chinese_

Medicine/join

( ID required)

 

Chinese Medicine-digest

m

 

Chinese Medicine-fullfeatured@gro

ups.com

 

Chinese Medicine-@grou

ps.com

[Guest guest]

K,

 

 

 

Some of Dr. Soh's work has discovered a microscopic tubule that runs inside the

spinal column, even to the brain. We might want to re-consider that nerves are

a separate entity as is the CSF. I remember a system that had the liver pulse

on the right and spleen on the left, but think this was more about assigning

things to male and female.

 

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

 

 

 

 

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:54:37 -0800

> Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney Channel - NEW FINDINGS

>

> If anything, the Du mai seems to coincide with the brain/spinal cord,

> along with the nerves that innervate down it

> and the cerebro-spinal fluid running through it.

>

> Stefano, I think we need to differentiate anatomical locations vs functional

> correspondences.

> UB 20 functionally corresponds to the TCM spleen/pancreas " pi " ,

> while UB 21 corresponds to the TCM stomach " wei " .

> Chinese medicine is more of a functional medicine than anatomical one.

>

> If we start changing things around from an anatomical perspective,

> we would find the liver pulse on the right wrist

> and the spleen pulse on the left wrist.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

>

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Messey <joe.messey wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> > Again according to anatomy, in the list of the back-shu points the

> > positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the stomach should come first

> > (not yet published).

> >

> > Li Dongyuan:

> > Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy is moved upwards to

> > infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

> >

> > Joe:

> > whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is above the stomach so Pishu

> > is above Weishu.

> > Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> >

> > Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and it is the Sinus node

> >

> > Joe:

> > HUH?!?!?!

> > Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

> >

> > Joe Messey

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Stefano wrote:

Anatomy and function are in strict relationship.

 

Stefano, this is an interesting topic....

if you read " the Web that has no Weaver " by Ted Kaptchuk, he eloquently

makes the distinction between the biomedical anatomical-physiological system

and the Chinese functional-correlative medicine.

 

Here are a few examples of how anatomy and function are not in a strict

relationship according to Chinese medicine:

 

many of the back-shu points do not correspond to the dorsal spinal nerve -

organ relationship according to biomedicine

in TCM, the five zang and six fu are organ systems, often with extremely

different functions than the literal anatomical organs

The " jing-luo-mai " channels/vessels of Chinese medicine do not coincide with

major nerves/ blood vessels except in a few instances, such as the

hand-yang-ming LI channel = radial nerve.

The acupuncture points " xue " are functionally important, not exactly

anatomically dependent. According to research, they coincide with known

" trigger points " only about 30% of the time.

 

Do you think that Chinese medicine were that bad in anatomy?

They were doing intricate cadaver studies in the Warring states period and

documented these in the Han dynasty. They could see that the anatomical

liver was on the right side and the spleen-pancreas was left of the

mid-line. Yet, on a Qi-level, the left pulse, abdomen and face belongs to

the Liver (gan). So, how come our maps are so different from Vesalius?

 

K

 

 

 

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 5:20 AM, stefanomarcelli <stefanomarcelli

> wrote:

 

> John,

> I don't want to be an acupuncture teacher, in no

> way.

> But the only organ possible for the Dumai I could

> find following the list of the thoracic organs was

> the Sinus Node. And the choice is coherent with

> the channel theory. Also Corpus Callosus, spine,

> medulla oblongata, septus nasi, philtrum (!!!)and

> all thing are on the back and skull, face medial

> line till the philtrum can be under the control of

> Dumai, but it back-shu point, were " qi infuses "

> the pertaining organ, is after and within the

> heart back-shu.

> Anatomy and function are in strict relationship.

> Very friendly, ciao

>

> Stefano Marcelli

> Darfo Boario Terme BS

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> [Chinese Medicine

> om] On Behalf Of

> Wednesday, February 24, 2010 3:55 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney

> Channel - NEW FINDINGS

>

> If anything, the Du mai seems to coincide with the

> brain/spinal cord,

> along with the nerves that innervate down it

> and the cerebro-spinal fluid running through it.

>

> Stefano, I think we need to differentiate

> anatomical locations vs functional

> correspondences.

> UB 20 functionally corresponds to the TCM

> spleen/pancreas " pi " ,

> while UB 21 corresponds to the TCM stomach " wei " .

> Chinese medicine is more of a functional medicine

> than anatomical one.

>

> If we start changing things around from an

> anatomical perspective,

> we would find the liver pulse on the right wrist

> and the spleen pulse on the left wrist.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

>

> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Joe Messey

> <joe.messey wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> > Again according to anatomy, in the list of the

> back-shu points the

> > positions of stomach and spleen are inverted,

> the stomach should come first

> > (not yet published).

> >

> > Li Dongyuan:

> > Once food enters the stomach, its essential

> energy is moved upwards to

> > infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

> >

> > Joe:

> > whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is

> above the stomach so Pishu

> > is above Weishu.

> > Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li

> Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

> >

> > Stefano:

> >

> >

> > Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and

> it is the Sinus node

> >

> > Joe:

> > HUH?!?!?!

> > Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

> >

> > Joe Messey

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> ""

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

> ---

>

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> Times

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> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

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[Guest guest]

Mike,

that is interesting... the ayurvedic system has the liver pulse on the

right and the spleen/pancreas on the left.

 

If we are going to go by anatomical-physiological correspondences, then this

new research by Soh and others validating traditional channels would be the

closest approximation.

 

Dr. Voll of Germany validated Chinese medicine's Qi channels through

technological means and even discovered new points and possibly new channels

at the jing-well points of the hands and feet. The teeth for instance are

all connected to zang/fu... owning their own channels... canines = LV,

wisdom teeth = HT etc. This was all validated through bio-electric

research.

 

K

 

 

> > --

> >

> >

> > ""

> >

> >

> > www.tcmreview.com

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I buy Dr. Voll's conclusions just because he did bio-electric

research. . . channels are more than bio-electric entities.

 

 

On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, wrote:

 

> Mike,

> that is interesting... the ayurvedic system has the liver pulse on the

> right and the spleen/pancreas on the left.

>

> If we are going to go by anatomical-physiological correspondences, then this

> new research by Soh and others validating traditional channels would be the

> closest approximation.

>

> Dr. Voll of Germany validated Chinese medicine's Qi channels through

> technological means and even discovered new points and possibly new channels

> at the jing-well points of the hands and feet. The teeth for instance are

> all connected to zang/fu... owning their own channels... canines = LV,

> wisdom teeth = HT etc. This was all validated through bio-electric

> research.

>

> K

>

>

>>> --

>>>

>>>

>>> ""

>>>

>>>

>>> www.tcmreview.com

>>>

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

We " think " they are more than bio-electric entities. However, we don't " know "

that to be true. However, it is a fact that one can buy a simple ohm-meter and

find the exact locations of active acupoints and meridians.

 

 

 

Just my two-cents

 

 

 

You student always,

 

 

 

Don Snow

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

zrosenbe

Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:59:43 -0800

Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney Channel - NEW FINDINGS

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if I buy Dr. Voll's conclusions just because he did bio-electric

research. . . channels are more than bio-electric entities.

 

 

On Feb 24, 2010, at 7:53 AM, wrote:

 

> Mike,

> that is interesting... the ayurvedic system has the liver pulse on the

> right and the spleen/pancreas on the left.

>

> If we are going to go by anatomical-physiological correspondences, then this

> new research by Soh and others validating traditional channels would be the

> closest approximation.

>

> Dr. Voll of Germany validated Chinese medicine's Qi channels through

> technological means and even discovered new points and possibly new channels

> at the jing-well points of the hands and feet. The teeth for instance are

> all connected to zang/fu... owning their own channels... canines = LV,

> wisdom teeth = HT etc. This was all validated through bio-electric

> research.

>

> K

>

>

>>> --

>>>

>>>

>>> ""

>>>

>>>

>>> www.tcmreview.com

>>>

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

Stefano:

I am here looking for truths

 

Joe:

I feel ya. However, I have 2 major objections to the path you are on.

 

1) Your writings indicate that you want to pick and choose what parts you

want to accept. This part is ok, that part I don't like so I am going to

make something up.

This is a slippery slope. There are many parts to the Neijing that I don't

understand (more parts than I do understand). So, I have to accept that " I

don't understand that " -or- " I don't seem to be able to apply that part "

It is what it is, buddy. We just have to scratch our heads sometimes and try

to dig deeper, not redefine based on our modern, materialistic view of the

world.

 

2) When we see things that are inconsistent with our concrete notions of the

body, there may be a temptation to conflate our biomedical model over the

Chinese medicine model. Clearly, you are doing this. What you have made up

is your own:

alternative interpretation

 

Someone might see that and think, " that is interesting, but I think I need

to modify it to better conform to my preconceived notions " . So, they will

further twist things and create:

an alternative interpretation of your alternative interpretation

 

Someone might see that and think, " that is interesting, but I think I need

to modify it to better conform to my preconceived notions " . So, they will

further twist things and create:

an alternative interpretation of the alternative interpretation of your

alternative interpretation

 

by the time we get to 5th order harmonics - there is no telling what has

been made up. This will be presented to the world as Chinese medicine. I

believe that this is a disservice to the tradition and to the Chinese

medicine community.

 

Finally, I believe that Felix Mann simply drew the wrong conclusions from

his " research "

He thought that points were defined by impedance - they are not. But his

conclusion seems to be that points don't exist...because he couldn't let go

of his concrete, materialistic view of the world?

He also proved that point finders were far too inconsistent to rely on.

 

As far as the " funny circle "

I think it more likely represents the Big Dipper in the sky than the vas

deferens - you really think that ancient people did not know where the

spleen was, but they created a channel path to match vas deferens?!?!?

 

Joe

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just to add something here. The Nei Jing only lists the Yin back shu points,

they do not list the yang back shu, from that book's perspective they do not

exist. Maybe the issue of which organ is above or below is not relevant from the

nei jing perspective.

 

regards,

david

 

Chinese Medicine , " stefanomarcelli "

<stefanomarcelli wrote:

>

> Dear Joe.

> I am here looking for truths because MDs abandoned

> left the " Acupuncture Meridian System " alone. Here

> I feel to be among intelligent friends.

> Please send me the CT image showing the spleen

> above the stomach, if you can.

> In the abdomen, understanding the back-shu points

> list is very hard, because back-shu points are

> tiny areas, while organs can be dozens of meters

> long. For example, the small intestine occupies

> almost all the abdomen above and below the

> umbilicus. Its back-shu point is just above the

> bladder one, I think this is exact, because in the

> standing position some tracts of the small

> intestine are always in contact with the bladder

> especially when full.

> Thank you for the constructive criticism.

> Ciao,

>

> Stefano Marcelli

> Darfo Boario Terme BS

>

> Chinese Medicine

> [Chinese Medicine

> om] On Behalf Of Joe Messey

> Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:08 AM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: Strange Circle in the Kidney

> Channel - NEW FINDINGS

>

>  

> Stefano:

> Again according to anatomy, in the list of the

> back-shu points the

> positions of stomach and spleen are inverted, the

> stomach should come first

> (not yet published).

>

> Li Dongyuan:

> Once food enters the stomach, its essential energy

> is moved upwards to

> infuse first the spleen and then the lung.

>

> Joe:

> whose anatomy are you using? In CM the spleen is

> above the stomach so Pishu

> is above Weishu.

> Sorry, buddy, but between Stefano and Li

> Dongyuan...who are we to believe?

>

> Stefano:

>

> Dumai has its own organ (no book says this), and

> it is the Sinus node

>

> Joe:

> HUH?!?!?!

> Maybe there is a reason that no book says that?

>

> Joe Messey

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

[Guest guest]

As far as the " funny circle "

I think it more likely represents the Big Dipper

in the sky than the vas

deferens - you really think that ancient people

did not know where the

spleen was, but they created a channel path to

match vas deferens?!?!?

 

Joe

 

---

 

I’m sorry Joe, I can answer only to this last

question, because I must focus one thing a time.

 

The “strange” or better “extraordinary” circle is

the sole loop in the complete ring of the

acupuncture channel system?

 

It is bilateral, while e.g. for example the

crossing of the LI channel at philtrum is odd and

medial.

 

In the urogenital anatomy there are two bilateral

circles (or loops):

 

1) that resulting from merging the ureter pathway

with part of seminal pathway.

 

2) that coinciding with the seminal path, sperm

from testis to the air or generously hosting

mucosa.

 

I think that this finding must be enough to make

me to suspect any far kind of ability of ancient

Chinese to see and describe the strange circles on

the kidney channel.

 

Good night (in my time zone),

 

Stefano