Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 The Drummer on the " dragon boat " is the perfect metaphor for the Dumai Vessel, according to my new outlook on back-shu points. It (Sinus node) governs the rhythm of the two row of oarsmen (right and left atria and ventricles). " The leading pair of paddlers, called " pacers, " " strokes " or " timers, " set the pace for the team " (of cardio-muscular cells). Have a good video of drummer, paddlers and boat: http://tinyurl.com/18r Ciao, Stefano Marcelli Darfo Boario Terme BS Chinese Medicine [Chinese Medicine om] On Behalf Of Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:50 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai Couldn't agree more. . On Feb 21, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote: > This is pretty sad, all this misinformation could be easily remedied by having teachers read some of the historical works published by historians and social researchers etc. Kim Taylors in Early Communist China, Volkers Scheids works, as well as Nathan Sivin. The information is out there in English to read. Institutions that Teach should make it mandatory that their staff educate themselves on these basic issues. > Gabe Fuentes > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, wrote: > > > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > Chinese Medicine > Sunday, February 21, 2010, 8:01 AM > > > > Simon, > > They probably denied it because your facts are in a bit in disarray. " Mao > and his cronies banned acupuncture " " in the 1915/20 period " ??? Where did > you read this one? > > -- people love to tell these stories, and the funny thing is that the > endpoint is usually that they somehow have some special training/knowledge > that isn't documented anywhere and that the " communist " destroyed... come > on... > > I am in no way suggesting that TCM or Chinese medicine in general has not > had its ups and downs. But let's get our facts straight and really it would > serve us to focus on the positive aspects. Or more importantly, try to learn > the most we can about the material before completely disregarding it, > bashing it, and then gravitating to some more esoteric traditions. My > experience is, many such " bashers " don't even understand fundamental Chinese > medicine (TCM). > > Quite simply, TCM is why almost all of us are even studying Chinese medicine > in the first place. It is the most complete system we have. If one takes the > time to read (especially in Chinese), one can see how diverse and broad it > actually is. Of course it does not include everything, but I would rather > study it then some quirky oral tradition (which usually completely ignores > basic knowledge in favor of esoteric ideas). I have no problem supplementing > one's already solid education in TCM with more esoteric traditions. > > Furthermore, to think that classic texts like SHL, JGYL are not an integral > part of TCM is completely silly. Such texts may not be part of one's > watered-down Western education but please don't confuse our lack of > classical study in the West with what is available in TCM (in the East). I > have quite a few Western friends who have PhD's from China in TCM focusing > on SHL. Their education and depth of knowledge is deep. > > We currently have schools wanting to simplify their programs, giving > exclusive two-year acupuncture degrees, and we allow students to speed > through programs in three years. Is there a question why we feel we don't > get enough? We also do not require Chinese language, water-down our programs > with pretty much useless superficial Western biomedical info, and teach a > large spattering of other modalities (psycho-spiritual aspects of herbs, > Korean acupuncture, Japanese acupuncture, Western supplements, homeopathics, > each individual teacher's quirky systems etc.... > > Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with any of these topics, but schools > often forgo actually buckling down and teaching fundamental Chinese medicine > in favor of presenting a " diverse " education and at the same time letting > (even encouraging) teachers to present their own ideas, who often bash " TCM " > in the process -- where does it get us? > > Therefore, I understand many people's frustration, but this is not TCM's > fault. It is my belief that if we actually just focused on TCM we might not > have so many disgruntled students. Why do you think Sharon's (postgraduate) > course on basic differential diagnosis has been so popular? Quite simply, > students graduate and can't even diagnose. There is something fundamentally > wrong with our education not TCM. > > -Jason > > e_Medicine@gro ups.com] On Behalf Of Simon Cairns > Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:29 PM > traditional_ chinese_medicine @. com > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > Hugo, > > Very well said. After gestating a while on this you let loose a well aimed > cannon ball at the heretofor Elephant lurking in the corner. > > I too am very much a paltry understander. .....the little I learn't was that > in the 1915/20 period, Mao and his cronies banned acupuncture. (well > documented, as you say) This lasted through the 30's and 40's. Some of the > practitioners fled to Korea, Vietnam and Taiwan amongst other places and > continued their old ways. Meanwhile, in China there was now a lack of > medicine and Western Medicine was introduced . Then due to big demand > " Barefoot doctors " were sent out after 8 weeks of training which borrowed > mainly from China's rich herbal tradition, which had remained intact, such > as the 8 principles and included ashi points and so on. This was due to the > fact that the acupuncture teachings were lost!!! My memory is a little hazy > so I won't bet my appendix on this but wasn't it so that acupuncture was > kind of reinvented on the slim pickings from the past and from the herbal > traditions. Hence the gaps in knowledge that you speak of. When I was in > China and raised this subject my teachers flat out denid that this was > so......but ......then again nor did they tell me why the colour red was so > important. > > simon > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia Traditional_Chinese_ Medicine/join and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Links Traditional_Chinese_ Medicine/ Traditional_Chinese_ Medicine/join ( ID required) Chinese Medicine-digest m Chinese Medicine-fullfeatured@gro ups.com Chinese Medicine-@grou ps.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Wonderful metaphor! Chinese Medicine , " stefanomarcelli " <stefanomarcelli wrote: > > The Drummer on the " dragon boat " is the perfect > metaphor for the Dumai Vessel, according to my new > outlook on back-shu points. > It (Sinus node) governs the rhythm of the two row > of oarsmen (right and left atria and ventricles). > " The leading pair of paddlers, called " pacers, " > " strokes " or " timers, " set the pace for the team " > (of cardio-muscular cells). > > Have a good video of drummer, paddlers and boat: > http://tinyurl.com/18r > Ciao, > > Stefano Marcelli > Darfo Boario Terme BS > > > > Chinese Medicine > [Chinese Medicine > om] On Behalf Of > Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:50 PM > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > Couldn't agree more. . > > > On Feb 21, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Gabriel Fuentes > wrote: > > > This is pretty sad, all this misinformation > could be easily remedied by having teachers read > some of the historical works published by > historians and social researchers etc. Kim Taylors > in Early Communist China, Volkers > Scheids works, as well as Nathan Sivin. The > information is out there in English to read. > Institutions that Teach should > make it mandatory that their staff educate > themselves on these basic issues. > > Gabe Fuentes > > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, > wrote: > > > > > > > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > Chinese Medicine > > Sunday, February 21, 2010, 8:01 AM > > > > > > > > Simon, > > > > They probably denied it because your facts are > in a bit in disarray. " Mao > > and his cronies banned acupuncture " " in the > 1915/20 period " ??? Where did > > you read this one? > > > > -- people love to tell these stories, and the > funny thing is that the > > endpoint is usually that they somehow have some > special training/knowledge > > that isn't documented anywhere and that the > " communist " destroyed... come > > on... > > > > I am in no way suggesting that TCM or Chinese > medicine in general has not > > had its ups and downs. But let's get our facts > straight and really it would > > serve us to focus on the positive aspects. Or > more importantly, try to learn > > the most we can about the material before > completely disregarding it, > > bashing it, and then gravitating to some more > esoteric traditions. My > > experience is, many such " bashers " don't even > understand fundamental Chinese > > medicine (TCM). > > > > Quite simply, TCM is why almost all of us are > even studying Chinese medicine > > in the first place. It is the most complete > system we have. If one takes the > > time to read (especially in Chinese), one can > see how diverse and broad it > > actually is. Of course it does not include > everything, but I would rather > > study it then some quirky oral tradition (which > usually completely ignores > > basic knowledge in favor of esoteric ideas). I > have no problem supplementing > > one's already solid education in TCM with more > esoteric traditions. > > > > Furthermore, to think that classic texts like > SHL, JGYL are not an integral > > part of TCM is completely silly. Such texts may > not be part of one's > > watered-down Western education but please don't > confuse our lack of > > classical study in the West with what is > available in TCM (in the East). I > > have quite a few Western friends who have PhD's > from China in TCM focusing > > on SHL. Their education and depth of knowledge > is deep. > > > > We currently have schools wanting to simplify > their programs, giving > > exclusive two-year acupuncture degrees, and we > allow students to speed > > through programs in three years. Is there a > question why we feel we don't > > get enough? We also do not require Chinese > language, water-down our programs > > with pretty much useless superficial Western > biomedical info, and teach a > > large spattering of other modalities > (psycho-spiritual aspects of herbs, > > Korean acupuncture, Japanese acupuncture, > Western supplements, homeopathics, > > each individual teacher's quirky systems etc.... > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with any > of these topics, but schools > > often forgo actually buckling down and teaching > fundamental Chinese medicine > > in favor of presenting a " diverse " education and > at the same time letting > > (even encouraging) teachers to present their own > ideas, who often bash " TCM " > > in the process -- where does it get us? > > > > Therefore, I understand many people's > frustration, but this is not TCM's > > fault. It is my belief that if we actually just > focused on TCM we might not > > have so many disgruntled students. Why do you > think Sharon's (postgraduate) > > course on basic differential diagnosis has been > so popular? Quite simply, > > students graduate and can't even diagnose. There > is something fundamentally > > wrong with our education not TCM. > > > > -Jason > > > > e_Medicine@gro ups.com] On Behalf Of Simon > Cairns > > Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:29 PM > > traditional_ chinese_medicine @. > com > > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > > > Hugo, > > > > Very well said. After gestating a while on this > you let loose a well aimed > > cannon ball at the heretofor Elephant lurking in > the corner. > > > > I too am very much a paltry understander. > ....the little I learn't was that > > in the 1915/20 period, Mao and his cronies > banned acupuncture. (well > > documented, as you say) This lasted through the > 30's and 40's. Some of the > > practitioners fled to Korea, Vietnam and Taiwan > amongst other places and > > continued their old ways. Meanwhile, in China > there was now a lack of > > medicine and Western Medicine was introduced . > Then due to big demand > > " Barefoot doctors " were sent out after 8 weeks > of training which borrowed > > mainly from China's rich herbal tradition, which > had remained intact, such > > as the 8 principles and included ashi points and > so on. This was due to the > > fact that the acupuncture teachings were lost!!! > My memory is a little hazy > > so I won't bet my appendix on this but wasn't it > so that acupuncture was > > kind of reinvented on the slim pickings from the > past and from the herbal > > traditions. Hence the gaps in knowledge that you > speak of. When I was in > > China and raised this subject my teachers flat > out denid that this was > > so......but ......then again nor did they tell > me why the colour red was so > > important. > > > > simon > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/join and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print > this message if absolutely necessary. > Links > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/ > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/join > ( ID required) > > Chinese Medicine-digest > m > > Chinese Medicine-fullfeatured@gro > ups.com > > Chinese Medicine-@grou > ps.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Thank you very much. Dragon Boat Race is very fascinating! I absolutely did not know it at all, before studying the back-shu points anatomy. But now I understand the why the most competitive people love it. Ciao, Stefano Marcelli Darfo Boario Terme BS Chinese Medicine [Chinese Medicine om] On Behalf Of heylaurag Wednesday, February 24, 2010 12:58 AM Chinese Medicine Re: A perfect metaphor for Dumai Wonderful metaphor! --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 ..com> , " stefanomarcelli " <stefanomarcelli wrote: > > The Drummer on the " dragon boat " is the perfect > metaphor for the Dumai Vessel, according to my new > outlook on back-shu points. > It (Sinus node) governs the rhythm of the two row > of oarsmen (right and left atria and ventricles). > " The leading pair of paddlers, called " pacers, " > " strokes " or " timers, " set the pace for the team " > (of cardio-muscular cells). > > Have a good video of drummer, paddlers and boat: > http://tinyurl.com/18r > Ciao, > > Stefano Marcelli > Darfo Boario Terme BS > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 ..com> > [Chinese Medicine > om] On Behalf Of > Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:50 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 ..com> > Re: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > Couldn't agree more. . > > > On Feb 21, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Gabriel Fuentes > wrote: > > > This is pretty sad, all this misinformation > could be easily remedied by having teachers read > some of the historical works published by > historians and social researchers etc. Kim Taylors > in Early Communist China, Volkers > Scheids works, as well as Nathan Sivin. The > information is out there in English to read. > Institutions that Teach should > make it mandatory that their staff educate > themselves on these basic issues. > > Gabe Fuentes > > > > --- On Sun, 2/21/10, > wrote: > > > > > > > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 ..com> > > Sunday, February 21, 2010, 8:01 AM > > > > > > > > Simon, > > > > They probably denied it because your facts are > in a bit in disarray. " Mao > > and his cronies banned acupuncture " " in the > 1915/20 period " ??? Where did > > you read this one? > > > > -- people love to tell these stories, and the > funny thing is that the > > endpoint is usually that they somehow have some > special training/knowledge > > that isn't documented anywhere and that the > " communist " destroyed... come > > on... > > > > I am in no way suggesting that TCM or Chinese > medicine in general has not > > had its ups and downs. But let's get our facts > straight and really it would > > serve us to focus on the positive aspects. Or > more importantly, try to learn > > the most we can about the material before > completely disregarding it, > > bashing it, and then gravitating to some more > esoteric traditions. My > > experience is, many such " bashers " don't even > understand fundamental Chinese > > medicine (TCM). > > > > Quite simply, TCM is why almost all of us are > even studying Chinese medicine > > in the first place. It is the most complete > system we have. If one takes the > > time to read (especially in Chinese), one can > see how diverse and broad it > > actually is. Of course it does not include > everything, but I would rather > > study it then some quirky oral tradition (which > usually completely ignores > > basic knowledge in favor of esoteric ideas). I > have no problem supplementing > > one's already solid education in TCM with more > esoteric traditions. > > > > Furthermore, to think that classic texts like > SHL, JGYL are not an integral > > part of TCM is completely silly. Such texts may > not be part of one's > > watered-down Western education but please don't > confuse our lack of > > classical study in the West with what is > available in TCM (in the East). I > > have quite a few Western friends who have PhD's > from China in TCM focusing > > on SHL. Their education and depth of knowledge > is deep. > > > > We currently have schools wanting to simplify > their programs, giving > > exclusive two-year acupuncture degrees, and we > allow students to speed > > through programs in three years. Is there a > question why we feel we don't > > get enough? We also do not require Chinese > language, water-down our programs > > with pretty much useless superficial Western > biomedical info, and teach a > > large spattering of other modalities > (psycho-spiritual aspects of herbs, > > Korean acupuncture, Japanese acupuncture, > Western supplements, homeopathics, > > each individual teacher's quirky systems etc.... > > > > > Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with any > of these topics, but schools > > often forgo actually buckling down and teaching > fundamental Chinese medicine > > in favor of presenting a " diverse " education and > at the same time letting > > (even encouraging) teachers to present their own > ideas, who often bash " TCM " > > in the process -- where does it get us? > > > > Therefore, I understand many people's > frustration, but this is not TCM's > > fault. It is my belief that if we actually just > focused on TCM we might not > > have so many disgruntled students. Why do you > think Sharon's (postgraduate) > > course on basic differential diagnosis has been > so popular? Quite simply, > > students graduate and can't even diagnose. There > is something fundamentally > > wrong with our education not TCM. > > > > -Jason > > > > e_Medicine@gro ups.com] On Behalf Of Simon > Cairns > > Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:29 PM > > traditional_ chinese_medicine @. > com > > RE: Re: Jing / Luo / Mai > > > > Hugo, > > > > Very well said. After gestating a while on this > you let loose a well aimed > > cannon ball at the heretofor Elephant lurking in > the corner. > > > > I too am very much a paltry understander. > ....the little I learn't was that > > in the 1915/20 period, Mao and his cronies > banned acupuncture. (well > > documented, as you say) This lasted through the > 30's and 40's. Some of the > > practitioners fled to Korea, Vietnam and Taiwan > amongst other places and > > continued their old ways. Meanwhile, in China > there was now a lack of > > medicine and Western Medicine was introduced . > Then due to big demand > > " Barefoot doctors " were sent out after 8 weeks > of training which borrowed > > mainly from China's rich herbal tradition, which > had remained intact, such > > as the 8 principles and included ashi points and > so on. This was due to the > > fact that the acupuncture teachings were lost!!! > My memory is a little hazy > > so I won't bet my appendix on this but wasn't it > so that acupuncture was > > kind of reinvented on the slim pickings from the > past and from the herbal > > traditions. Hence the gaps in knowledge that you > speak of. When I was in > > China and raised this subject my teachers flat > out denid that this was > > so......but ......then again nor did they tell > me why the colour red was so > > important. > > > > simon > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at > Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia > for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/join and adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any > duplication outside the group requires prior > permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print > this message if absolutely necessary. Groups > Links > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/ > > Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine/join > ( ID required) > > Chinese Medicine-digest > m > > Chinese Medicine-fullfeatured@gro > ups.com > > Chinese Medicine-@grou > ps.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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