Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Laura, I don't like to talk very much. I'd rather talk out of the treatment room. Some people need the talking. That's ok, but it tires me out too. If people really need a counselor, there are professional people out there who can do that. If education is the issue, I think this is completely necessary. However, if people just want to vent or complain about victimization issues, there are also acupuncturists who specialize in that kind of processing. I think it takes a certain kind of training.... years of professional psychology school. I don't think it means that you're not a good listener or not compassionate. K On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:32 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat > them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is > something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. > Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do > both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting > that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is > purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get > them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to > feel awkward not talking. > > The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less > interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small > talk. Its like I am small talked out. > > So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this > problem? > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hello, It all depends what the clients talk about. If it's small talk because they are nervous I kind of let them talk but hardly answer myself. If it's about their health issues, then isn't what they are coming to see me for? And if it's anything on the psychological side, well, I have training for that so it's not an issue for me. But I agree with John that it does take a specialised training. Artemis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Everyone is different, as you know. I talk to people and sometimes I don't. It never tires me though. Sounds like you're exhausting your yin ;o) JW - heylaurag Chinese Medicine Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:32 PM Talking during treatments Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release 02/28/10 07:34:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi John and all: I must respectfully disagree with two of your points, and I must also point out that this is something dealt with in classical training. Do China-based university TCM programs teach this? --- However, if people just want to vent or complain about victimization issues, there are also acupuncturists who specialize in that kind of processing. I think it takes a certain kind of training.... years of professional psychology school. --- It is odd to me that you would link " processing " and " psychology " with " venting, complaining, and victimization issues " in your above paragraph. I strongly disagree that years of (western! again!) psychology training is what it takes to *deal with people*!!! Because CM can't deal with people?? Let's get our numbers right, guys. *Western science* can't deal with people! Ok, we go that? Dat's why we're splicing human genes into pigs so they can grow organ transplantations for us, and then, in the interests of the bottom line, which house will the remains of the harvested pigs go to? Dat's right, kiddies, da slaughter house! The CM system is far more subtle, powerful and effective than modern psychology, huge parts of which were grafted from eastern systems in the first place. The grafters often had a tremendous respect for the unreachable depths of eastern " psychology " - Jung, for instance. Buddhism and Taoism are systems of " psychology " par excellence. If they are inappropriate, it is because our modern world is systematised to promote and support the one and deny and dissolve the other. Check this link for an example of the poop hitting the fan: http://www.amazon.ca/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-American/dp/141658708X When I was younger (in the past, I was always younger), I completed 700 hours of applied psychology because I had a sneaking suspicion that I was being had. It turns out, I was. Once again, I found that my medical system was solid, legitimate and " good to go " . I learned almost nothing in the course, although working in intensive and intimate contact with my (all 55yrs+ female it turned out) instructors was an illuminating experience, and exactly reminiscent of my relationship with my apprenticeship master, except that in CM we have additional, powerful tools other than talking and listening. We have ways of taking people directly to the source and skipping " psychotherapy " that might otherwise last for years or remain stuck for decades. We have ways of strengthening the vessel such that spiritual confusion disappears. Suddenly. Without requiring insight into the " personality " (which is often just a figment of function). And that's not all. But the point is that CM knows people. When the Su Wen states that " thinking excessively, thoughts are stored in the heart, concentrated in one place, the righteous qi stops moving and becomes static. That's why qi is congealed, " it is not making a superstitious claim - it is stating a distilled principle that modern psychotherapists and psychiatrists are barely beginning to apprehend. The idea barely fits in their minds. And yet it is central to competent " psychotherapeutic practice " . To answer the question originally posed: Sense what is needed with your heart, check it with your knowledge. Make a decision. If someone only ever talks quietly, do not force them to engage. Tonify their qi until they wish to engage, then listen. If someone has rambling, near-incoherent conversations with you, stop them, explain about deficient spleens, and do everything you can to get the spleen strong. Stop them everytime it is necessary. If someone is venting, let them. Make sure to release / emolliate the liver, and then listen some more. If you feel tired talking to people, learn what your constitutional type is, locate yoursel-f/ves on the 5 element constructive and destructive cycles and start work on balancing yourself out. If you feel too tired, you need to get with it and start doing your internal practice, I have to say this again, you really can't get along without it. If you've got a really strong constitution you'll be able to fake it for a long time. Like a meathead athlete versus someone who has done marrow washing and tendon changing. With a strong internal practice and strong study, it will become easier to recognise truly problematic patients and situations and to respond accordingly (i.e. how to protect both yourself and the patient). Review the Tao Teh Ching. Healthy vs unhealthy personalities is listed in there, throughout. Consult the I Ching, read it at least, but learn the transformations of power. Remember the story of Confucius when he went to find Lao Tzu: upon his return to his students he could not speak. When he finally spoke, he said that he saw a dragon, ceaselessly changing. Humbled, and with nothing to say, Confucius had left Lao Tsu. It may be that one reason that there is a loss of energy in the interactions is because the interactions lack courage or integrity - this is to say, *they haven't changed*. Every visit must be different, slightly, progressively. If stuff don't change, the qi of the relationship starts getting stagnant. And what does stagnation do to qi? Growth depends upon a bounded disclosure of intimacy and will lead to an increase of energy for the people involved. Pressing against an unrelenting wall, beating around the bush, or slogging through a swamp, waist deep, will lead to a loss of energy. It really is about compassionate honesty. Finally, is small talk in particular killing you? Ignore the words, look deep into their eyes and feel. Says word that are meaningless back to them but that are full of your own feeling. Don't emote, just be present in the sharing of your humanity. You'll find small talk transforming into a meeting of spirits, a unifying *felt and sensed* conversation about the shared experiences of being alive. Yes, we're both alive. Yes, we're both human. It's a long road... one that doesn't require western psychology. It does require investment in our medicine and finding a teacher who will take us into the depths. Those temples up in GuiLin mountains aren't there because of realty prices. There is something there, deep inside, at the core, of our medicine. Hope this helps, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Sun, 28 February, 2010 15:26:21 Re: Talking during treatments Hi Laura, I don't like to talk very much. I'd rather talk out of the treatment room. Some people need the talking. That's ok, but it tires me out too. If people really need a counselor, there are professional people out there who can do that. If education is the issue, I think this is completely necessary. However, if people just want to vent or complain about victimization issues, there are also acupuncturists who specialize in that kind of processing. I think it takes a certain kind of training.... years of professional psychology school. I don't think it means that you're not a good listener or not compassionate. K On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:32 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat > them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is > something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. > Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do > both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting > that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is > purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get > them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to > feel awkward not talking. > > The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less > interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small > talk. Its like I am small talked out. > > So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this > problem? > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Hi Laura, Alex Tiberi used to tell his patients (to prevent from chatting too much), " talking disturbs the qi. " -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of heylaurag Sunday, February 28, 2010 12:33 PM Chinese Medicine Talking during treatments Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I also have this problem. Occasionally I have to take a 'day of silence' to replenish myself. Sometimes I'll be in synagogue on saturday/Shabbat morning and it is hard for me to socialize, my qi is too low. Li Dong-yuan said that the best way to supplement qi is silence, and that too much speaking depletes the qi. . . being both a practitioner and teacher, you can imagine. . . . On Feb 28, 2010, at 11:32 AM, heylaurag wrote: > Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. > > The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. > > So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Ok, so let me clarify-- I actually have a masters in clinical social work and use to work in mental health, so doing that kind of work with my patients is a big part of my practice, and I enjoy it. I respect what both Western psychology and Chinese medicine have to offer psychology, and try to blend them in my work. But I do that aspect of my work during the intake, which I do every week before they are on the table. That period of time does not tire me. It is the time on the table where we are just doing small talk whle I get the needles in that tires me, not the more interesting conversations about their life on a deeper level, which I enjoy. It doesn't work to bring more depth to the conversation while I am needling because its too hard for me to be present on that level while I am needling. I like what you said about letting the words be light but feeling it on a deeper level Hugo. I am going to try that. I've always been someone who has the gift of gab but at the same time I am tired out by small talk (despite being good at it). Part of the situation is related to how my practice is set up--most of my patients have been coming to me once or twice a month for years and so there is a friendship component to the relationship. So in that context it seems odd to be silent during the treatment. And when I have tried to do that in the past patients have felt really awkward. Maybe I need to put a little work into having set topics to discuss so that it is easy to chat. Think about it beforehand so that it is easy. Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi John and all: > > I must respectfully disagree with two of your points, and I must also point out that this is something dealt with in classical training. Do China-based university TCM programs teach this? > > --- > > However, if people just want to vent or complain about victimization issues, > there are also acupuncturists who specialize in that kind of processing. > I think it takes a certain kind of training.... years of professional > psychology school. > --- > > It is odd to me that you would link " processing " and " psychology " with " venting, complaining, and victimization issues " in your above paragraph. > > I strongly disagree that years of (western! again!) psychology training is what it takes to *deal with people*!!! Because CM can't deal with people?? Let's get our numbers right, guys. *Western science* can't deal with people! Ok, we go that? Dat's why we're splicing human genes into pigs so they can grow organ transplantations for us, and then, in the interests of the bottom line, which house will the remains of the harvested pigs go to? Dat's right, kiddies, da slaughter house! > > The CM system is far more subtle, powerful and effective than modern psychology, huge parts of which were grafted from eastern systems in the first place. The grafters often had a tremendous respect for the unreachable depths of eastern " psychology " - Jung, for instance. > Buddhism and Taoism are systems of " psychology " par excellence. If they are inappropriate, it is because our modern world is systematised to promote and support the one and deny and dissolve the other. Check this link for an example of the poop hitting the fan: http://www.amazon.ca/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-American/dp/141658708X > > When I was younger (in the past, I was always younger), I completed 700 hours of applied psychology because I had a sneaking suspicion that I was being had. It turns out, I was. Once again, I found that my medical system was solid, legitimate and " good to go " . I learned almost nothing in the course, although working in intensive and intimate contact with my (all 55yrs+ female it turned out) instructors was an illuminating experience, and exactly reminiscent of my relationship with my apprenticeship master, except that in CM we have additional, powerful tools other than talking and listening. We have ways of taking people directly to the source and skipping " psychotherapy " that might otherwise last for years or remain stuck for decades. We have ways of strengthening the vessel such that spiritual confusion disappears. Suddenly. Without requiring insight into the " personality " (which is often just a figment of function). And that's not all. > > But the point is that CM knows people. When the Su Wen states that " thinking excessively, thoughts are stored in the heart, concentrated in one place, the righteous qi stops moving and becomes static. That's why qi is congealed, " it is not making a superstitious claim - it is stating a distilled principle that modern psychotherapists and psychiatrists are barely beginning to apprehend. The idea barely fits in their minds. And yet it is central to competent " psychotherapeutic practice " . > > To answer the question originally posed: > Sense what is needed with your heart, check it with your knowledge. Make a decision. > If someone only ever talks quietly, do not force them to engage. Tonify their qi until they wish to engage, then listen. If someone has rambling, near-incoherent conversations with you, stop them, explain about deficient spleens, and do everything you can to get the spleen strong. Stop them everytime it is necessary. If someone is venting, let them. Make sure to release / emolliate the liver, and then listen some more. If you feel tired talking to people, learn what your constitutional type is, locate yoursel-f/ves on the 5 element constructive and destructive cycles and start work on balancing yourself out. If you feel too tired, you need to get with it and start doing your internal practice, I have to say this again, you really can't get along without it. If you've got a really strong constitution you'll be able to fake it for a long time. Like a meathead athlete versus someone who has done marrow washing and tendon changing. With a strong internal > practice and strong study, it will become easier to recognise truly problematic patients and situations and to respond accordingly (i.e. how to protect both yourself and the patient). Review the Tao Teh Ching. Healthy vs unhealthy personalities is listed in there, throughout. Consult the I Ching, read it at least, but learn the transformations of power. > > Remember the story of Confucius when he went to find Lao Tzu: upon his return to his students he could not speak. When he finally spoke, he said that he saw a dragon, ceaselessly changing. Humbled, and with nothing to say, Confucius had left Lao Tsu. > > It may be that one reason that there is a loss of energy in the interactions is because the interactions lack courage or integrity - this is to say, *they haven't changed*. Every visit must be different, slightly, progressively. If stuff don't change, the qi of the relationship starts getting stagnant. And what does stagnation do to qi? Growth depends upon a bounded disclosure of intimacy and will lead to an increase of energy for the people involved. Pressing against an unrelenting wall, beating around the bush, or slogging through a swamp, waist deep, will lead to a loss of energy. It really is about compassionate honesty. > > Finally, is small talk in particular killing you? Ignore the words, look deep into their eyes and feel. Says word that are meaningless back to them but that are full of your own feeling. Don't emote, just be present in the sharing of your humanity. You'll find small talk transforming into a meeting of spirits, a unifying *felt and sensed* conversation about the shared experiences of being alive. Yes, we're both alive. Yes, we're both human. > > It's a long road... one that doesn't require western psychology. It does require investment in our medicine and finding a teacher who will take us into the depths. Those temples up in GuiLin mountains aren't there because of realty prices. There is something there, deep inside, at the core, of our medicine. > > Hope this helps, > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > > ________________________________ > <johnkokko > Chinese Medicine > Sun, 28 February, 2010 15:26:21 > Re: Talking during treatments > > Hi Laura, > I don't like to talk very much. I'd rather talk out of the treatment room. > Some people need the talking. That's ok, but it tires me out too. > If people really need a counselor, there are professional people out there > who can do that. If education is the issue, I think this is completely > necessary. > However, if people just want to vent or complain about victimization issues, > there are also acupuncturists who specialize in that kind of processing. > I think it takes a certain kind of training.... years of professional > psychology school. > I don't think it means that you're not a good listener or not compassionate. > > K > > > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:32 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat > > them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is > > something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. > > Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do > > both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting > > that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is > > purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get > > them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to > > feel awkward not talking. > > > > The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less > > interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small > > talk. Its like I am small talked out. > > > > So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this > > problem? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Yes, Zev, that is exactly the problem for me--it depletes my Qi. Qi deficiency is my main issue, so all my constitutional tendencies are aggravated by this. And so then I am hungry for silence all weekend, which leads to a pretty one dimensional life--all work. I am a talker who is tired out by talking--my lung qi is too deficient to talk this much. I take qi tonics regularly, which helps a lot--but I feel like there should be another way to address this. One thought is that as my herbal practice grows I can do more short and simple treatments, which will leave less time for all this talking. Interestingly, the deeper conversations during the intake do not tire me. Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > I also have this problem. Occasionally I have to take a 'day of silence' to replenish myself. Sometimes I'll be in synagogue on saturday/Shabbat morning and it is hard for me to socialize, my qi is too low. > > Li Dong-yuan said that the best way to supplement qi is silence, and that too much speaking depletes the qi. . . being both a practitioner and teacher, you can imagine. . . . > > > On Feb 28, 2010, at 11:32 AM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. > > > > The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. > > > > So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Laura, For me words are part of my therapeutic tools, and I take to heart the suggestion of ancient Chinese physicians that we should befriend our patients and make them feel at home. One practice that has helped me replenish lung qi is pranayama, I practice it daily along with my hour-long yoga practice. Alternate nostril breath is especially effective. On Feb 28, 2010, at 3:10 PM, heylaurag wrote: > Yes, Zev, that is exactly the problem for me--it depletes my Qi. Qi deficiency is my main issue, so all my constitutional tendencies are aggravated by this. And so then I am hungry for silence all weekend, which leads to a pretty one dimensional life--all work. I am a talker who is tired out by talking--my lung qi is too deficient to talk this much. I take qi tonics regularly, which helps a lot--but I feel like there should be another way to address this. > > One thought is that as my herbal practice grows I can do more short and simple treatments, which will leave less time for all this talking. Interestingly, the deeper conversations during the intake do not tire me. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 One way to get the patients who like alot of small talk to relax their minds is to show them how to do deep diaphragmatic breathing and help them practice this. This keeps them busy, but in a balanced way. People have all the time in the world to talk about all kinds of things. For some people, the 1 hour/ week they come to the clinic is the only time they have to quiet their minds amongst the chatter of a crazy lifestyle. Now, for me to shut up. On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 4:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Laura, > For me words are part of my therapeutic tools, and I take to heart the > suggestion of ancient Chinese physicians that we should befriend our > patients and make them feel at home. > > One practice that has helped me replenish lung qi is pranayama, I practice > it daily along with my hour-long yoga practice. Alternate nostril breath is > especially effective. > > > On Feb 28, 2010, at 3:10 PM, heylaurag wrote: > > > Yes, Zev, that is exactly the problem for me--it depletes my Qi. Qi > deficiency is my main issue, so all my constitutional tendencies are > aggravated by this. And so then I am hungry for silence all weekend, which > leads to a pretty one dimensional life--all work. I am a talker who is tired > out by talking--my lung qi is too deficient to talk this much. I take qi > tonics regularly, which helps a lot--but I feel like there should be another > way to address this. > > > > One thought is that as my herbal practice grows I can do more short and > simple treatments, which will leave less time for all this talking. > Interestingly, the deeper conversations during the intake do not tire me. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Yes... talking tires out our Zong Qi... Listening to too many sounds... can that tire out our Kidneys? One from the top...the other from the bottom. Like burning a candle out on both ends. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must generalise. Most of my postings are very general. I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone. My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and internal cultivation, daily. Thanks Laura! Hugo (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org .._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Not tiring Kidney, maybe but Small Intestine? sorting pure from impure? k Karen R. Adams, Lic Ac, Dipl Ac 25 Bank Row, 3S Greenfield, MA 01301 413-768-8333 www.adamsacupuncture.info Greenfield Community Acupuncture 3 Bank Row, Suite 2S Greenfield, MA 01301 413-772-0077 www.greenfldcommacu.com Believe. ________________________________ <johnkokko Chinese Medicine Sun, February 28, 2010 10:53:16 PM Re: Talking during treatments Yes... talking tires out our Zong Qi... Listening to too many sounds... can that tire out our Kidneys? One from the top...the other from the bottom. Like burning a candle out on both ends. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 --- " heylaurag " wrote: " (...) The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. (...) " Is there some way you could continue the 'intake talk' during the treatment? Regards, Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Have you tried bringing the conversation around to what you are doing, why you are using certain points, what the energetics of the points/treatment are, etc? Â This can help both you and the patient concentrate on the intent of the treatment. Â You can also ask them to let you know what they are feeling, how their energy is changing as you needle. Â Keeps them and conversation focused on healing. Kathleen --- On Sun, 2/28/10, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: heylaurag <heylaurag Talking during treatments Chinese Medicine Sunday, February 28, 2010, 12:32 PM Â Hi, I was wondering if you all talk with your patients while you treat them? I enjoy chatting with my patients during the intake, but there is something about talking while I am doing the treatment that tires me out. Anyone else feel this way? Part of the problem is that it is tiring to do both at the same time. But also, making small talk is tiring. The chatting that goes on during the intake is not usually small talk because it is purposeful and as soon as it starts to feel like small talk I stop and get them on the table. I've tried not talking, but most of my patients seem to feel awkward not talking. The thing that I really don't like about it is that it leads me to be less interested in social activities on the weekends that might involve small talk. Its like I am small talked out. So is this just some weird thing about me, or does anyone else have this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 There's another reason it is important to let the conversation go where it will (not just healing related stuff, but also small talk and whatever) - we must be able to tell when our patient is lying, withholding or unsure regarding disclosure. We won't be able to pick up on this type of thing with a written intake and clinical discussion only. This is why a certain flavour of friendship is necessary in the clinic. It may be because I take poor intakes, but many times I have come across an important piece of clinical information via non-medical conversation, where the patient reveals a relationship, behaviour or attitude that makes everything else click into place. Recall that ma my people come into clinic with deeply held convictions about what is medical and what isn't. Sometimes the only way to get relevant medical information from a protected " non-medical " arena is by having a non-medical, flippant, conversation. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, weather, new construction, etc....) This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very awkward and more tiring than talking. I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to receive the best treatment results. ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM Re: Talking during treatments Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must generalise. Most of my postings are very general. I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone. My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and internal cultivation, daily. Thanks Laura! Hugo (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middlemedicine.org .._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 If patients are rather talkative I'll start with ear shen men and then fiddle around in the room for a minute or two. Also asking them about the needle sensations usually brings them away. Then again, I spent an hour talking to a distraught patient the other day without putting in a needle. Rare occurrence but it happens. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Lee, That's true.. I was observing myself this morning with patients and seeing that I actually like small-talk too, just not during pulse reading and acu-treatment. One of my mentors in Hawaii knew all of the news everyday, all of the sports-news, all of the gossip, all of the stuff happening around town. People loved it and he was always packed. So, each to their own. Another way to have people stop talking is to do back treatments where they're face-down and another way is to press points that are painful, so they get connected to their bodies K On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM, lee tritt <ladylee0999 wrote: > > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I > usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, > weather, new construction, etc....) > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very > awkward and more tiring than talking. > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the > patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to > receive the best treatment results. > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro <subincor <subincor%40>> > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM > > Re: Talking during treatments > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must > generalise. Most of my postings are very general. > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind > of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's > important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement > for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when > the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without > reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table > talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. > At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that > results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in > arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance > around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their > straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy > further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a > list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop > someone. > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and > internal cultivation, daily. > > Thanks Laura! > Hugo > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ._,___ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Sometimes I Love to tell Chinese medicine history / stories that help each individual¡¯s healing process. Therefore sometimes I am chatting during the treatment, sometimes just listening, and sometimes I just let the silence brew. Each patient and situation dictates a different circumstance (at least that is my point of view). - > ---- > <johnkokko > Chinese Medicine > Re: Talking during treatments > 01 Mar '10 19:52 > > Lee, > That's true.. I was observing myself this morning with patients and seeing > that I actually like small-talk too, > just not during pulse reading and acu-treatment. One of my mentors in > Hawaii knew all of the news everyday, > all of the sports-news, all of the gossip, all of the stuff happening around > town. People loved it and he was always packed. > So, each to their own. > Another way to have people stop talking is to do back treatments where > they're face-down > and another way is to press points that are painful, so they get connected > to their bodies > > K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Yeah, it really does all come down to my own state. On days when my energy is really good I enjoy these conversations and am not worn out from them. That's part of the problem, actually--I set myself up on those days because I am quite the Chatty Kathy and then when my energy is lower I've already set a precidence! Regarding western psychology--I worked in public mental health, which was mostly using the western medical psychology model, and I was really put off by it. There was absolutely no poetry in it. But there are many areas of western psychology that are really beautiful and wise and amazing--eg: Jungian psychology and Existential Psychotherapy. I think that the west has contributed some wonderful ideas, but unfortunately the western medical system has capitalized on much of what happens in the western psychological world. But read Existential Psychotherapy by Irvine Yalom and then tell me what you think of western pychology. Pretty amazing stuff. Laura Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must generalise. Most of my postings are very general. > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone. > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and internal cultivation, daily. > > Thanks Laura! > Hugo > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > ._,___ > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I am. Chinese Medicine , lee tritt <ladylee0999 wrote: > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, weather, new construction, etc....) > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very awkward and more tiring than talking. > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to receive the best treatment results. > > > > > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro <subincor > Chinese Medicine > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM > Re: Talking during treatments > > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must generalise. Most of my postings are very general. > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone. > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and internal cultivation, daily. > > Thanks Laura! > Hugo > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > ._,___ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Yes I totally agree....I hope to allow every treatment to be a fresh play of life and respond appropriately..... Some of my patients have thought me to be very serious...others know me to tease them mercilessly and tell jokes....I don't want to become too habitual or stagnant in my sense of self....... Turiya Hill, L.Ac. - Chinese Medicine Monday, March 01, 2010 12:00 PM Re: Talking during treatments Sometimes I Love to tell Chinese medicine history / stories that help each individual¡¯s healing process. Therefore sometimes I am chatting during the treatment, sometimes just listening, and sometimes I just let the silence brew. Each patient and situation dictates a different circumstance (at least that is my point of view). - > ---- > <johnkokko > Chinese Medicine > Re: Talking during treatments > 01 Mar '10 19:52 > > Lee, > That's true.. I was observing myself this morning with patients and seeing > that I actually like small-talk too, > just not during pulse reading and acu-treatment. One of my mentors in > Hawaii knew all of the news everyday, > all of the sports-news, all of the gossip, all of the stuff happening around > town. People loved it and he was always packed. > So, each to their own. > Another way to have people stop talking is to do back treatments where > they're face-down > and another way is to press points that are painful, so they get connected > to their bodies > > K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2010 Report Share Posted March 2, 2010 Hard to be secific without in-depth understanding of your statistics (like total treatments per week, number of " new " exam/treatments per week), BUT decide what YOU want in YOUR practice and make it so. Simply change your behavior and change what is expected with your new patients and your practice will change. We are presently experiencing about 10 new patients per week, and on average patients take about 20 treatments with us (so for every one and out there is someone who takes about 39 treatments). We see about 50% turnover in six months as far as regular treatment population. We can impliment new policies pretty quickly and so we are not afraid of change, there is always a steady stream of new people due to our success with those we treat (resulting in lots of referrals). Those returning after completing their treatment plan for regular seasonal or semiannual maintenance treatments do require more interaction (these are scheduled with a re-eval or mini re-eval BEFORE their treatment where most of the talk occurs). Needle quickly and get out of the room. Let the needles do their work. Patients are typically much less blathering after treatment than before, so there is less talk during post-needles cupping, gua sha, whatever. Heart 8 works wonders for the heart-heat shen disturbed who simply cannot stop speaking. Get it in early it works really quickly. Mark Z www.ewacupuncture.com Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I am. > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , lee tritt <ladylee0999@> wrote: > > > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, weather, new construction, etc....) > > > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very awkward and more tiring than talking. > > > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to receive the best treatment results. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@> > > Chinese Medicine > > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM > > Re: Talking during treatments > > > > > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must generalise. Most of my postings are very general. > > > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I mean. > > > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone. > > > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and internal cultivation, daily. > > > > Thanks Laura! > > Hugo > > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology ) > > > > ____________ _________ _________ __ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > ._,___ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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