Talking with Purpose During Treatments

[Guest guest]

Laura:

 

 

 

Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM.  I would avoid small talk

or minimize it.  I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be " friends " ;

however, I step back and try to control that.  Also some of my patients know

all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances - or they really

connect with their own kid who went away to college.  Something in my life is

ringing as an important event in theirs.  I then talk about it, and then move

the conversation quickly to what is important for them - I think.

 

 

 

The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in some it

to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR healing from

the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

 

 

 

A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

 

 

 

  " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

Cavanaugh

 

 

 

" Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner, come and

walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes into her own

fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well done, she hardly

knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

 

 

 

Anne

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" heylaurag " <heylaurag

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re: Talking during treatments

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the fact

that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its more

realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me than to

figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've noticed that

some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I say anything

about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I am.

 

Chinese Medicine , lee tritt

<ladylee0999 wrote:

>

> OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I usually

do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, weather, new

construction, etc....)

>

> This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very

awkward and more tiring than talking.

>

> I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the

patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to

receive the best treatment results.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> Chinese Medicine

> Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> Re: Talking during treatments

>

>

> Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

>

> I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind of

making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's

important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for

expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the

patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason,

there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to

just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point,

something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that

will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating

to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle

the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to

catch it, if you know what I mean.

>

> I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone.

>

> My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

internal cultivation, daily.

>

> Thanks Laura!

> Hugo

> (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> ._,___

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now. Funny thing is they small-talk

more than anyone else

and I learn a lot from them. It's like when they tell a story, it's always

some kind of parable

and they're also the funniest of my patients. Also, I treat numerous

psycho-therapists, counselors,

educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

absolutely!

 

There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves.... the

one who disassociates

themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

and

thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always transcendence,

not integrating in the Ground of Being).

So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

process and psycho-somaticize everything.

These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections and

tell you which points

they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

and then keep window shopping.

I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else to

go to.

Ever get one of those? of course.

How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

sports, news

or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> Laura:

>

> Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM. I would avoid small

> talk or minimize it. I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that. Also some of my

> patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances

> - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs. I then

> talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is important

> for them - I think.

>

> The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in

> some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR

> healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

>

> A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

>

> " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

> Cavanaugh

>

> " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes

> into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well

> done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> " Traditional " <

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

>

> Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> Re: Talking during treatments

>

>

>

> Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

> suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the

> fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its

> more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me

> than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've

> noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I

> say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I

> am.

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, lee tritt <ladylee0999

> wrote:

> >

> > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> weather, new construction, etc....)

> >

> > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> >

> > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help

> the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them

> to receive the best treatment results.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

> generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> >

> > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am

> kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing.

> It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not

> talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use

> with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree

> with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a

> person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often

> dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot

> their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I

> mean.

> >

> > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

> further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

> list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> someone.

> >

> > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

> internal cultivation, daily.

> >

> > Thanks Laura!

> > Hugo

> > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> >

> > ._,___

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey Kokko,

 

Just a personal observation:  I am of the belief that we need to always

remember the following important consideration whenever we treat patients:  They

are coming to see us because they believe that we will be able to help them feel

better.  As such, it doesn't matter if they are superstars in music, sports,

politics, or entertainment, and are used to being recognized as different, we

need to offer them an oasis into which they can go safely for the length of

their treatment, be it 1/2 hour, an our, or in the case of the work that I do, 2

hours.  Remember that all of the above are performers, aware that they are

constantly being observed, and rabbis and preachers generally also fall into the

above category.  Though they might have incredible wisdom to convey,  my job is

to take them to a different place, and get them out of the performing

mode, which really is a state of fight-or-flight.  Therefore doing some of the

clever things

that have been suggested in this discussion, such as needling ear shen men,

breathing with them, and educatiing them that we are trying to together engender

and build Qi, which talking can deplete, I think is very important.  Like

soldiers, we are serving a higher purpose, and it would seem to me inconsistant

with that purpose to have a performer perform (and deplete his Qi) when we need

to help build them up.

 

Just a thought to consider....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Thu, March 4, 2010 8:03:06 AM

Re: Talking with Purpose During Treatments

 

I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now.  Funny thing is they small-talk

more than anyone else

and I learn a lot from them.  It's like when they tell a story, it's always

some kind of parable

and they're also the funniest of my patients.  Also, I treat numerous

psycho-therapists, counselors,

educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

absolutely!

 

There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves.... the

one who disassociates

themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

and

thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always transcendence,

not integrating in the Ground of Being).

So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

process and psycho-somaticize everything.

These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections and

tell you which points

they want needled.  They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

and then keep window shopping.

I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else to

go to.

Ever get one of those?  of course.

How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

sports, news

or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> Laura:

>

> Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM.  I would avoid small

> talk or minimize it.  I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that.  Also some of my

> patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances

> - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs.  I then

> talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is important

> for them - I think.

>

> The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in

> some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR

> healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

>

> A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

>

>   " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

> Cavanaugh

>

> " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes

> into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well

> done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

>

> Anne

>

> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> " Traditional " <

>

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

>

> Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> Re: Talking during treatments

>

>

>

> Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

> suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the

> fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its

> more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me

> than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've

> noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I

> say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I

> am.

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, lee tritt <ladylee0999

> wrote:

> >

> > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> weather, new construction, etc....)

> >

> > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> >

> > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help

> the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them

> to receive the best treatment results.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro <subincor

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

> generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> >

> > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am

> kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing.

> It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not

> talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use

> with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree

> with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a

> person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often

> dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot

> their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I

> mean.

> >

> > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

> further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

> list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> someone.

> >

> > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

> internal cultivation, daily.

> >

> > Thanks Laura!

> > Hugo

> > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> >

> > ._,___

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Very well said, Yehudah.

 

We are creating a safe environment, giving room for people to grow towards what

they need to be healthy and gain wisdom.

 

 

On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:08 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Hey Kokko,

>

> Just a personal observation: I am of the belief that we need to always

remember the following important consideration whenever we treat patients: They

are coming to see us because they believe that we will be able to help them feel

better. As such, it doesn't matter if they are superstars in music, sports,

politics, or entertainment, and are used to being recognized as different, we

need to offer them an oasis into which they can go safely for the length of

their treatment, be it 1/2 hour, an our, or in the case of the work that I do, 2

hours. Remember that all of the above are performers, aware that they are

constantly being observed, and rabbis and preachers generally also fall into the

above category. Though they might have incredible wisdom to convey, my job is

to take them to a different place, and get them out of the performing mode,

which really is a state of fight-or-flight. Therefore doing some of the clever

things

> that have been suggested in this discussion, such as needling ear shen men,

breathing with them, and educatiing them that we are trying to together engender

and build Qi, which talking can deplete, I think is very important. Like

soldiers, we are serving a higher purpose, and it would seem to me inconsistant

with that purpose to have a performer perform (and deplete his Qi) when we need

to help build them up.

>

> Just a thought to consider....

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

K, I know exactly the type of patient you are talking about, and they drive me

nuts too! They try to control everything and they place their

oh-so-highly-evolved intuition above my clinical skills. So, for instance, they

will often suddenly tell me in the middle of a treatment that their intuition

has told them that they shouldn't have any more needles-but I know that if I

don't finish the treatment will be out of balance and they will have a crummy

week. But there's just no talking them out of it. I have a new patient who

seems like she is going to be like this...might have to take your advice and

refer her out to someone very special who is the only person who can understand

her. (!) The other thing is that some of these people are on massive amounts

of supplements that are stagnating their livers and there's just no talking them

into stopping. Some can be reasoned with, but more and more I'm finding that

its best to find subtle ways to discourage the stubborn ones from coming back.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now. Funny thing is they small-talk

> more than anyone else

> and I learn a lot from them. It's like when they tell a story, it's always

> some kind of parable

> and they're also the funniest of my patients. Also, I treat numerous

> psycho-therapists, counselors,

> educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

> absolutely!

>

> There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves.... the

> one who disassociates

> themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> and

> thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always transcendence,

> not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections and

> tell you which points

> they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> and then keep window shopping.

> I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else to

> go to.

> Ever get one of those? of course.

> How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> sports, news

> or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Laura:

> >

> > Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM. I would avoid small

> > talk or minimize it. I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> > " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that. Also some of my

> > patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances

> > - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> > Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs. I then

> > talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is important

> > for them - I think.

> >

> > The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in

> > some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR

> > healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

> >

> > A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

> >

> > " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

> > Cavanaugh

> >

> > " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> > come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes

> > into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well

> > done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

> >

> > -

> > " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> > " Traditional " <

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

> >

> > Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

> > suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the

> > fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its

> > more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me

> > than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've

> > noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I

> > say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I

> > am.

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, lee tritt <ladylee0999@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> > usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> > weather, new construction, etc....)

> > >

> > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> > very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> > >

> > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help

> > the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them

> > to receive the best treatment results.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > > Re: Talking during treatments

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

> > generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> > >

> > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am

> > kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing.

> > It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> > requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> > expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not

> > talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use

> > with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree

> > with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> > communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a

> > person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often

> > dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot

> > their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I

> > mean.

> > >

> > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

> > further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

> > list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> > someone.

> > >

> > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

> > internal cultivation, daily.

> > >

> > > Thanks Laura!

> > > Hugo

> > > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > > ._,___

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Great reminders Anne, thanks. Yeah, I used to work in mental health and that

counselor role requires that I adhere to this principle even more than the role

of an acupuncturist/herbalist. I actually am much more comfortable in that

role, and during the weekly intake I fulfill it very clearly. But during the

treatment I am just too preoccupied to be a good listener, so its just not the

time for me to offer that kind of presence to them. Small talk is as much as

I'm capable of during the treatment. But I do find that the vibe is soooo much

better if even the small talk is very focused on them.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley

<anne.crowley wrote:

>

>

>

> Laura:

>

>

>

> Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM.  I would avoid small talk

or minimize it.  I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be " friends " ;

however, I step back and try to control that.  Also some of my patients know

all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances - or they really

connect with their own kid who went away to college.  Something in my life is

ringing as an important event in theirs.  I then talk about it, and then move

the conversation quickly to what is important for them - I think.

>

>

>

> The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in some

it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR healing

from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

>

>

>

> A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

>

>

>

>   " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

Cavanaugh

>

>

>

> " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner, come

and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes into her own

fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well done, she hardly

knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

>

>

>

> Anne

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

>

> -

> " heylaurag " <heylaurag

> " Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

> Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> Re: Talking during treatments

>

>  

>

>

>

>

> Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the fact

that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its more

realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me than to

figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've noticed that

some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I say anything

about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I am.

>

> Chinese Medicine , lee tritt <ladylee0999@>

wrote:

> >

> > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I usually

do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children, weather, new

construction, etc....)

> >

> > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be very

awkward and more tiring than talking.

> >

> > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help the

patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them to

receive the best treatment results.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

> > Chinese Medicine

> > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> >

> > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am kind

of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing. It's

important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the requirement for

expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is expressing when the

patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not talk without reason,

there is always some good reason. One strategy I use with the table talk is to

just go along with everything that they say. Agree with it all. At some point,

something will catch my attention, and the communication that results form that

will either be illuminating to me as a person in arelationship, or illuminating

to me clinically. People will often dance around a point, and when you handle

the dance well, they will shoot their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to

catch it, if you know what I mean.

> >

> > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop someone.

> >

> > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

internal cultivation, daily.

> >

> > Thanks Laura!

> > Hugo

> > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> >

> > ._,___

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yehudah,

always good to hear your voice.

 

I practice Kiiko style predominately during the diagnosis and treatment

session, so there is very little room for small-talk, because I'm constantly

asking the patient to get in touch with their body-brain and relay their

sensations (reflexes on the hara, torso, neck and head). There is a deep

relationship between us and them, where they can't just be passive

observers. Also, I teach every patient how to breath through their bellies

(limbic breathing) and to practice this during the session. So, I'm right

on board, with what you're saying. I also remind patients if they're

feeling talkative during the session that this is their time to relax from a

stressful week... a one hour vacation.

 

K

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

After a busy day at the Clinic, I am waiting for the joke I thought sure to

follow John's post:

 

A Rabbi, a Preacher and a Mullah walk into an Acupuncturist's office...

 

Mark Z

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now. Funny thing is they small-talk

> more than anyone else

> and I learn a lot from them. It's like when they tell a story, it's always

> some kind of parable

> and they're also the funniest of my patients. Also, I treat numerous

> psycho-therapists, counselors,

> educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

> absolutely!

>

> There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves.... the

> one who disassociates

> themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> and

> thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always transcendence,

> not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections and

> tell you which points

> they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> and then keep window shopping.

> I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else to

> go to.

> Ever get one of those? of course.

> How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> sports, news

> or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Laura:

> >

> > Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM. I would avoid small

> > talk or minimize it. I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> > " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that. Also some of my

> > patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances

> > - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> > Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs. I then

> > talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is important

> > for them - I think.

> >

> > The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in

> > some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR

> > healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

> >

> > A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

> >

> > " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

> > Cavanaugh

> >

> > " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> > come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes

> > into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well

> > done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

> >

> > -

> > " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> > " Traditional " <

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

> >

> > Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

> > suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the

> > fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its

> > more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me

> > than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've

> > noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I

> > say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I

> > am.

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, lee tritt <ladylee0999@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> > usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> > weather, new construction, etc....)

> > >

> > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> > very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> > >

> > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help

> > the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them

> > to receive the best treatment results.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > > Re: Talking during treatments

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

> > generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> > >

> > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am

> > kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing.

> > It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> > requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> > expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not

> > talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use

> > with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree

> > with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> > communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a

> > person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often

> > dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot

> > their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I

> > mean.

> > >

> > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

> > further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

> > list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> > someone.

> > >

> > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

> > internal cultivation, daily.

> > >

> > > Thanks Laura!

> > > Hugo

> > > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > > ._,___

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

haven't had a chance to read this entire chain fully.. but did anyone

suggest needling HT4 or HT7? that always seems to quiet down the over-talky

patient right away. :->

 

in terms of the " annoying " patient who tries to control the treatment

details, some thoughts.... if a patient tells me that they always feel very

good when a certain point is included, and I have no logical reason to

object, then why not just do it for them? They're happy, I'm happy! Of

course if there's good reason why i do not think that point is appropriate

to include for their condition, then just simply explain it. I might say --

" in my experience with cases like yours, my approach has been XX. The points

are based on pattern-differentiation and channel theory. I have had

consistently excellent results with cases like yours, and am optimistic that

your case will be no exception. Would you like to try that treatment? " they

always say yes!!! No drama, just straightup honest communication.

Alternatively I might say - " ok, now we've done the main treatment point

combo, we could add that one point that you always like, but i hesitate

because i think it's not really in alignment with the overall treatment

combo because of YYY reason. Or you might feel over-stimulated with too many

points. And your pulse feels just right... How do you feel? I want to honor

your intuition because you know your body better than anybody else. Myself

included. What do you think? "

 

I notice that once I demonstrate this level of respect for their

intelligence and give them their power, the irony is that they always end up

deferring back to me. So it seems if we want respect from our patients, we

give them that respect first.

 

And if I really don't feel comfortable doing the points or herbs that they

request, I just say - " I don't feel comfortable with it because it goes

directly against your diagnosis. I believe it will make your condition

worse, so it would not be ethical for me to do that. I hope you understand. "

Again no drama, just straight-up honesty.

 

Many patients come to us after they've been burnt by conventional doctors

who don't ever listen, so they feel they have to be extra assertive and

extra talkative to get their opinions heard. Patients are learning to take

control of their health and read books or study a little on their own.

Acting like a know-it-all pseudo-expert is just a harmless part of their

learning process, like adolescents know-it-all. Haven't we all been there

ourselves? It's just a process and we grow out of it.

 

In addition we all have patients who have needle-phobia and bravely come see

us despite that phobia! Some people cannot handle needling in some parts of

the body, or they easily feel panic attack or needle-shock from over

stimulation (i was one such patient when i started TCM school myself). How

amazing it is that they still come see us despite these phobias! It is truly

a miracle!!! They hate the needles, but love the results! So we each have a

duty to honor these patient's choice and make sure they feel safe, in

control, and empowered in the healing process. Or, like in kokko's example,

refer them out to another practitioner that might be a better fit for them.

 

~e

 

 

> There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> the

> > one who disassociates

> > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> > and

> > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> transcendence,

> > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections

> and

> > tell you which points

> > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> > and then keep window shopping.

> > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else

> to

> > go to.

> > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > sports, news

> > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> >

> > K

> >

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think these are some really good thoughts. I am reminded of a psychotherapist

I treat who seems to feel a lot of pressure to perform when she is being

treated. I guess I have my own issues in that arena, so I have room to grow

there. It is interesting to observe myself in this way. When I am feeling

particularly balanced inside I do not feel this pressure and I am naturally able

to create a quiet and relaxed atmosphere. So a lot of what I am describing is

just a reflection of what is going on inside of me. One more reason to continue

to work on my own evolution...

 

Laura

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Hey Kokko,

>

> Just a personal observation:  I am of the belief that we need to always

remember the following important consideration whenever we treat patients:  They

are coming to see us because they believe that we will be able to help them feel

better.  As such, it doesn't matter if they are superstars in music, sports,

politics, or entertainment, and are used to being recognized as different, we

need to offer them an oasis into which they can go safely for the length of

their treatment, be it 1/2 hour, an our, or in the case of the work that I do, 2

hours.  Remember that all of the above are performers, aware that they are

constantly being observed, and rabbis and preachers generally also fall into the

above category.  Though they might have incredible wisdom to convey,  my job is

to take them to a different place, and get them out of the performing

mode, which really is a state of fight-or-flight.  Therefore doing some of the

clever things

> that have been suggested in this discussion, such as needling ear shen men,

breathing with them, and educatiing them that we are trying to together engender

and build Qi, which talking can deplete, I think is very important.  Like

soldiers, we are serving a higher purpose, and it would seem to me inconsistant

with that purpose to have a performer perform (and deplete his Qi) when we need

to help build them up.

>

> Just a thought to consider....   

>  

>

>

>

>  

>  

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> <johnkokko

> Chinese Medicine

> Thu, March 4, 2010 8:03:06 AM

> Re: Talking with Purpose During Treatments

>

> I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now.  Funny thing is they small-talk

> more than anyone else

> and I learn a lot from them.  It's like when they tell a story, it's always

> some kind of parable

> and they're also the funniest of my patients.  Also, I treat numerous

> psycho-therapists, counselors,

> educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

> absolutely!

>

> There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves.... the

> one who disassociates

> themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> and

> thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always transcendence,

> not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections and

> tell you which points

> they want needled.  They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> and then keep window shopping.

> I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else to

> go to.

> Ever get one of those?  of course.

> How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> sports, news

> or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

>

> K

>

>

>

>

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Laura:

> >

> > Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM.  I would avoid small

> > talk or minimize it.  I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> > " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that.  Also some of my

> > patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's performances

> > - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> > Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs.  I then

> > talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is important

> > for them - I think.

> >

> > The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage in

> > some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about THEIR

> > healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

> >

> > A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

> >

> >   " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by Carol

> > Cavanaugh

> >

> > " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> > come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient comes

> > into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is well

> > done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

> >

> > Anne

> >

> > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

> >

> > -

> > " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> > " Traditional " <

> >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>>

> >

> > Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> > Re: Talking during treatments

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that patients

> > suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to the

> > fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think its

> > more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring to me

> > than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also, I've

> > noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them when I

> > say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how gentle I

> > am.

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>, lee tritt <ladylee0999@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> > usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> > weather, new construction, etc....)

> > >

> > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> > very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> > >

> > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to help

> > the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for them

> > to receive the best treatment results.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > > Re: Talking during treatments

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I must

> > generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> > >

> > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I am

> > kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are expressing.

> > It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> > requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> > expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do not

> > talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I use

> > with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say. Agree

> > with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> > communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me as a

> > person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will often

> > dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will shoot

> > their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know what I

> > mean.

> > >

> > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the energy

> > further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For example, a

> > list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> > someone.

> > >

> > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep and

> > internal cultivation, daily.

> > >

> > > Thanks Laura!

> > > Hugo

> > > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> > >

> > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > >

> > > ._,___

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Edith,

 

Your post is a breath of fresh air. So sensible and clear. Thank you!

RoseAnne

 

 

 

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:46 AM, Edith Chan, L.Ac. <chineseherbswrote:

 

>

>

> haven't had a chance to read this entire chain fully.. but did anyone

> suggest needling HT4 or HT7? that always seems to quiet down the over-talky

> patient right away. :->

>

> in terms of the " annoying " patient who tries to control the treatment

> details, some thoughts.... if a patient tells me that they always feel very

> good when a certain point is included, and I have no logical reason to

> object, then why not just do it for them? They're happy, I'm happy! Of

> course if there's good reason why i do not think that point is appropriate

> to include for their condition, then just simply explain it. I might say --

> " in my experience with cases like yours, my approach has been XX. The

> points

> are based on pattern-differentiation and channel theory. I have had

> consistently excellent results with cases like yours, and am optimistic

> that

> your case will be no exception. Would you like to try that treatment? " they

> always say yes!!! No drama, just straightup honest communication.

> Alternatively I might say - " ok, now we've done the main treatment point

> combo, we could add that one point that you always like, but i hesitate

> because i think it's not really in alignment with the overall treatment

> combo because of YYY reason. Or you might feel over-stimulated with too

> many

> points. And your pulse feels just right... How do you feel? I want to honor

> your intuition because you know your body better than anybody else. Myself

> included. What do you think? "

>

> I notice that once I demonstrate this level of respect for their

> intelligence and give them their power, the irony is that they always end

> up

> deferring back to me. So it seems if we want respect from our patients, we

> give them that respect first.

>

> And if I really don't feel comfortable doing the points or herbs that they

> request, I just say - " I don't feel comfortable with it because it goes

> directly against your diagnosis. I believe it will make your condition

> worse, so it would not be ethical for me to do that. I hope you

> understand. "

> Again no drama, just straight-up honesty.

>

> Many patients come to us after they've been burnt by conventional doctors

> who don't ever listen, so they feel they have to be extra assertive and

> extra talkative to get their opinions heard. Patients are learning to take

> control of their health and read books or study a little on their own.

> Acting like a know-it-all pseudo-expert is just a harmless part of their

> learning process, like adolescents know-it-all. Haven't we all been there

> ourselves? It's just a process and we grow out of it.

>

> In addition we all have patients who have needle-phobia and bravely come

> see

> us despite that phobia! Some people cannot handle needling in some parts of

> the body, or they easily feel panic attack or needle-shock from over

> stimulation (i was one such patient when i started TCM school myself). How

> amazing it is that they still come see us despite these phobias! It is

> truly

> a miracle!!! They hate the needles, but love the results! So we each have a

> duty to honor these patient's choice and make sure they feel safe, in

> control, and empowered in the healing process. Or, like in kokko's example,

> refer them out to another practitioner that might be a better fit for them.

>

> ~e

>

>

> > There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> > the

> > > one who disassociates

> > > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and

> pseudo-psychology

> > > and

> > > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> > transcendence,

> > > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book

> sections

> > and

> > > tell you which points

> > > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different

> acupuncturists

> > > and then keep window shopping.

> > > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone

> else

> > to

> > > go to.

> > > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > > sports, news

> > > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Edith,

Good to hear your voice... yes.. we talked about needling HT 8 for HT fire

patients...

who inevitably motor-talk, but HT 4, 7 would work as well, as would HT 4 and

HT 3 according to the metal/water treatment from Nagano (Kiiko style).

 

Other things we've mentioned were... showing them how to deep-breathe,

reminding them about the sanctity of the treatment, doing a face-down

treatment, making them participants in the treatment by having them

recognize the sensations in their body when pressed by the practitioner,

being very silent and just listen compassionately.

 

There's also needling thru-and-thru Du 26 - Ren 24, which is an experimental

treatment,

which we should never do.

 

Hmmm.... I went to my first Cirque du Soleil show last night and it got me

out of flat-land for a few hours, since everyone's working on the vertical

dimension as well as the horizontal. With my mouth half open for half of

the show, I kept thinking about the limitations we put on our bodies and

minds and the miracle of life and dedication to our arts. So, we keep

pushing the boundaries and share these expressions of the miracle inside of

the clinic and outside. These forums can be that circus of the sun and so

can our treatments. Sometimes we fall from the trapeze, but there's always

another chance to try it again. We're training ourselves as well as our

patients on the way of skillful means and we're truly blessed to do it.

 

As far as the difficult patients, physically and mentally, the Dalai Lama

said that our worst enemies are our best teachers and Bob Marley said that

our worst enemies could be our best friends. In any case, there is no true

enemy when we see that we're One organism and we share atoms with everything

in the universe.... through non-dual eyes. The biggest enemy of all would

be our ignorance and so we keep chugging along.... falling from a standing

position, not from 50 feet up.

 

Have a great day on spaceship earth, the third stone from the sun,

a small star in a small galaxy.

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac.

<chineseherbswrote:

 

>

>

> haven't had a chance to read this entire chain fully.. but did anyone

> suggest needling HT4 or HT7? that always seems to quiet down the over-talky

> patient right away. :->

>

> in terms of the " annoying " patient who tries to control the treatment

> details, some thoughts.... if a patient tells me that they always feel very

> good when a certain point is included, and I have no logical reason to

> object, then why not just do it for them? They're happy, I'm happy! Of

> course if there's good reason why i do not think that point is appropriate

> to include for their condition, then just simply explain it. I might say --

> " in my experience with cases like yours, my approach has been XX. The

> points

> are based on pattern-differentiation and channel theory. I have had

> consistently excellent results with cases like yours, and am optimistic

> that

> your case will be no exception. Would you like to try that treatment? " they

> always say yes!!! No drama, just straightup honest communication.

> Alternatively I might say - " ok, now we've done the main treatment point

> combo, we could add that one point that you always like, but i hesitate

> because i think it's not really in alignment with the overall treatment

> combo because of YYY reason. Or you might feel over-stimulated with too

> many

> points. And your pulse feels just right... How do you feel? I want to honor

> your intuition because you know your body better than anybody else. Myself

> included. What do you think? "

>

> I notice that once I demonstrate this level of respect for their

> intelligence and give them their power, the irony is that they always end

> up

> deferring back to me. So it seems if we want respect from our patients, we

> give them that respect first.

>

> And if I really don't feel comfortable doing the points or herbs that they

> request, I just say - " I don't feel comfortable with it because it goes

> directly against your diagnosis. I believe it will make your condition

> worse, so it would not be ethical for me to do that. I hope you

> understand. "

> Again no drama, just straight-up honesty.

>

> Many patients come to us after they've been burnt by conventional doctors

> who don't ever listen, so they feel they have to be extra assertive and

> extra talkative to get their opinions heard. Patients are learning to take

> control of their health and read books or study a little on their own.

> Acting like a know-it-all pseudo-expert is just a harmless part of their

> learning process, like adolescents know-it-all. Haven't we all been there

> ourselves? It's just a process and we grow out of it.

>

> In addition we all have patients who have needle-phobia and bravely come

> see

> us despite that phobia! Some people cannot handle needling in some parts of

> the body, or they easily feel panic attack or needle-shock from over

> stimulation (i was one such patient when i started TCM school myself). How

> amazing it is that they still come see us despite these phobias! It is

> truly

> a miracle!!! They hate the needles, but love the results! So we each have a

> duty to honor these patient's choice and make sure they feel safe, in

> control, and empowered in the healing process. Or, like in kokko's example,

> refer them out to another practitioner that might be a better fit for them.

>

> ~e

>

>

> > There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> > the

> > > one who disassociates

> > > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and

> pseudo-psychology

> > > and

> > > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> > transcendence,

> > > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book

> sections

> > and

> > > tell you which points

> > > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different

> acupuncturists

> > > and then keep window shopping.

> > > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone

> else

> > to

> > > go to.

> > > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > > sports, news

> > > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Laura,

Yes... there's a thin line between compassion for ourselves and others.

Sometimes letting go of a certain kind of patient is being compassionate to

ourselves.

 

Also, we have to investigate why those kinds of patients get on our nerves,

since the things we dis-like outside of ourselves are things we dis-like

inside of ourselves as well. Do we dis-like pride or control or lack of

control? We should listen to our patients, because they know their bodies

better than us... sometimes. At other times, they're so disconnected that's

why they're coming to see us. What do they really need? Is all of the

small-talk actually just a cry-out for something else? Is it a distraction

from actually feeling the sensation of their body-mind?

or is it just conditioning and habitual avoidance of receiving... since

small-talk is all about out-put, like a car's muffler puttering out

carbon-dioxide and other gases.

 

Funny thing is right after I wrote the message about those kinds of patients

that tell you what points they want needled, that window-shop for healers

and healing modalities, that psycho-somaticize and victimize their souls

into suppressing the light that can help them grow out of the funk and mud

into a lotus.... one of those patients called me that same day after not

hearing from her for half-a-year. Maybe it's a lesson that I have to learn

and the universe is saying... here it is!

What an amazing world we have the privilege to play and learn in

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

>

>

> K, I know exactly the type of patient you are talking about, and they drive

> me nuts too! They try to control everything and they place their

> oh-so-highly-evolved intuition above my clinical skills. So, for instance,

> they will often suddenly tell me in the middle of a treatment that their

> intuition has told them that they shouldn't have any more needles-but I know

> that if I don't finish the treatment will be out of balance and they will

> have a crummy week. But there's just no talking them out of it. I have a new

> patient who seems like she is going to be like this...might have to take

> your advice and refer her out to someone very special who is the only person

> who can understand her. (!) The other thing is that some of these people are

> on massive amounts of supplements that are stagnating their livers and

> there's just no talking them into stopping. Some can be reasoned with, but

> more and more I'm finding that its best to find subtle ways to discourage

> the stubborn ones from coming back.

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > I'm treating a rabbi and preacher right now. Funny thing is they

> small-talk

> > more than anyone else

> > and I learn a lot from them. It's like when they tell a story, it's

> always

> > some kind of parable

> > and they're also the funniest of my patients. Also, I treat numerous

> > psycho-therapists, counselors,

> > educators, activists, mothers and other healers.. so they teach me ...

> > absolutely!

> >

> > There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> the

> > one who disassociates

> > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> > and

> > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> transcendence,

> > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections

> and

> > tell you which points

> > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> > and then keep window shopping.

> > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else

> to

> > go to.

> > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > sports, news

> > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote:

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Laura:

> > >

> > > Some ideas - keep the conversation focused on THEM. I would avoid small

> > > talk or minimize it. I have a lot of fire energy, so I want to be

> > > " friends " ; however, I step back and try to control that. Also some of

> my

> > > patients know all about my family - have been to my daughter's

> performances

> > > - or they really connect with their own kid who went away to college.

> > > Something in my life is ringing as an important event in theirs. I then

> > > talk about it, and then move the conversation quickly to what is

> important

> > > for them - I think.

> > >

> > > The real juice is not in the small talk, and you might have to engage

> in

> > > some it to get to where you want to go. Just remember it is all about

> THEIR

> > > healing from the moment they walk in the door until they leave.

> > >

> > > A quote form Julia Measures, who studied with J.R. Worsley in England.

> > >

> > > " The Healing Relationship " An Interview with Julia Measures by

> Carol

> > > Cavanaugh

> > >

> > > " Patients are moving in their own life cycle, and you, as practitioner,

> > > come and walk beside them for a while . . . . The minute a patient

> comes

> > > into her own fullness, you mysteriously disappear . . . . If the job is

> well

> > > done, she hardly knows that you have appeared and disappeared. "

> > >

> > > Anne

> > >

> > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

> > > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

> > >

> > > -

> > > " heylaurag " <heylaurag <heylaurag%40hotmail.com>>

> > > " Traditional " <

> > >

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>>

> > >

> > > Monday, March 1, 2010 4:00:38 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

> > > Re: Talking during treatments

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yes--that's been my experience as well. And I've experienced that

> patients

> > > suddenly seem to not enjoy the process as much. So I keep going back to

> the

> > > fact that I do have the gift of gab, so I may as well use it. I think

> its

> > > more realistic for me to figure out techniques to make it less tiring

> to me

> > > than to figure out a way to create silence while I needle them. Also,

> I've

> > > noticed that some patients feel like their momma has disciplined them

> when I

> > > say anything about being quiet during the treatment--no matter how

> gentle I

> > > am.

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>, lee tritt <ladylee0999@>

>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > OK, I'm reading this thread and thinking you all have good points. I

> > > usually do lots of small talk while needling. (Talking about children,

> > > weather, new construction, etc....)

> > > >

> > > > This morning, I tried the quiet, meditative method and found it to be

> > > very awkward and more tiring than talking.

> > > >

> > > > I guess we all need to work as we are comfortable. The goal is to

> help

> > > the patient. Part of this is for the patient to be relaxed in order for

> them

> > > to receive the best treatment results.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ________________________________

> > > > Hugo Ramiro <subincor@>

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>

> > > > Sun, February 28, 2010 11:40:42 PM

> > > > Re: Talking during treatments

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Laura, because I know so little about you and your situation, I

> must

> > > generalise. Most of my postings are very general.

> > > >

> > > > I know what you mean about conversation while needling. The point I

> am

> > > kind of making though is like this - people, when speaking, are

> expressing.

> > > It's important. Now we may express too much, or not enough, but the

> > > requirement for expression remains. The trick is to find the qi that is

> > > expressing when the patient " small talks " . In my experience, people do

> not

> > > talk without reason, there is always some good reason. One strategy I

> use

> > > with the table talk is to just go along with everything that they say.

> Agree

> > > with it all. At some point, something will catch my attention, and the

> > > communication that results form that will either be illuminating to me

> as a

> > > person in arelationship, or illuminating to me clinically. People will

> often

> > > dance around a point, and when you handle the dance well, they will

> shoot

> > > their straight shot. Hopefully you're there to catch it, if you know

> what I

> > > mean.

> > > >

> > > > I am not sure a script for convo is a good idea - it may kill the

> energy

> > > further. Some scripted boundaries, though, might be in order. For

> example, a

> > > list of polite commands that can be used when you really need to stop

> > > someone.

> > > >

> > > > My most useful point, which I rely on myself, is good quality sleep

> and

> > > internal cultivation, daily.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks Laura!

> > > > Hugo

> > > > (p.s. I stand behind my " disrespect " towards western psychology )

> > > >

> > > > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > > > Hugo Ramiro

> > > > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > > > http://www.middlemedicine.org

> > > >

> > > > ._,___

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Wow, John.  What a great reminder of the potential of our work and our lives as

human beings on this earth.

 

 

 

Thank you for that.

 

 

 

Anne

 

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com

 

-

" " <johnkokko

" Traditional "

<Chinese Medicine >

Saturday, March 6, 2010 9:26:14 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

Re: Talking with Purpose During Treatments

 

Hi Edith,

Good to hear your voice...  yes.. we talked about needling HT 8 for HT fire

patients...

who inevitably motor-talk, but HT 4, 7 would work as well, as would HT 4 and

HT 3 according to the metal/water treatment from Nagano (Kiiko style).

 

Other things we've mentioned were... showing them how to deep-breathe,

reminding them about the sanctity of the treatment, doing a face-down

treatment, making them participants in the treatment by having them

recognize the sensations in their body when pressed by the practitioner,

being very silent and just listen compassionately.

 

There's also needling thru-and-thru Du 26 - Ren 24, which is an experimental

treatment,

which we should never do.

 

Hmmm.... I went to my first Cirque du Soleil show last night and it got me

out of flat-land for a few hours, since everyone's working on the vertical

dimension as well as the horizontal.  With my mouth half open for half of

the show, I kept thinking about the limitations we put on our bodies and

minds and the miracle of life and dedication to our arts.   So, we keep

pushing the boundaries and share these expressions of the miracle inside of

the clinic and outside.  These forums can be that circus of the sun and so

can our treatments.  Sometimes we fall from the trapeze, but there's always

another chance to try it again.  We're training ourselves as well as our

patients on the way of skillful means and we're truly blessed to do it.

 

As far as the difficult patients, physically and mentally, the Dalai Lama

said that our worst enemies are our best teachers  and Bob Marley said that

our worst enemies could be our best friends.  In any case, there is no true

enemy when we see that we're One organism and we share atoms with everything

in the universe.... through non-dual eyes.   The biggest enemy of all would

be our ignorance and so we keep chugging along....  falling from a standing

position, not from 50 feet up.

 

Have a great day on spaceship earth, the third stone from the sun,

a small star in a small galaxy.

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Edith Chan, L.Ac.

<chineseherbswrote:

 

>

>

> haven't had a chance to read this entire chain fully.. but did anyone

> suggest needling HT4 or HT7? that always seems to quiet down the over-talky

> patient right away. :->

>

> in terms of the " annoying " patient who tries to control the treatment

> details, some thoughts.... if a patient tells me that they always feel very

> good when a certain point is included, and I have no logical reason to

> object, then why not just do it for them? They're happy, I'm happy! Of

> course if there's good reason why i do not think that point is appropriate

> to include for their condition, then just simply explain it. I might say --

> " in my experience with cases like yours, my approach has been XX. The

> points

> are based on pattern-differentiation and channel theory. I have had

> consistently excellent results with cases like yours, and am optimistic

> that

> your case will be no exception. Would you like to try that treatment? " they

> always say yes!!! No drama, just straightup honest communication.

> Alternatively I might say - " ok, now we've done the main treatment point

> combo, we could add that one point that you always like, but i hesitate

> because i think it's not really in alignment with the overall treatment

> combo because of YYY reason. Or you might feel over-stimulated with too

> many

> points. And your pulse feels just right... How do you feel? I want to honor

> your intuition because you know your body better than anybody else. Myself

> included. What do you think? "

>

> I notice that once I demonstrate this level of respect for their

> intelligence and give them their power, the irony is that they always end

> up

> deferring back to me. So it seems if we want respect from our patients, we

> give them that respect first.

>

> And if I really don't feel comfortable doing the points or herbs that they

> request, I just say - " I don't feel comfortable with it because it goes

> directly against your diagnosis. I believe it will make your condition

> worse, so it would not be ethical for me to do that. I hope you

> understand. "

> Again no drama, just straight-up honesty.

>

> Many patients come to us after they've been burnt by conventional doctors

> who don't ever listen, so they feel they have to be extra assertive and

> extra talkative to get their opinions heard. Patients are learning to take

> control of their health and read books or study a little on their own.

> Acting like a know-it-all pseudo-expert is just a harmless part of their

> learning process, like adolescents know-it-all. Haven't we all been there

> ourselves? It's just a process and we grow out of it.

>

> In addition we all have patients who have needle-phobia and bravely come

> see

> us despite that phobia! Some people cannot handle needling in some parts of

> the body, or they easily feel panic attack or needle-shock from over

> stimulation (i was one such patient when i started TCM school myself). How

> amazing it is that they still come see us despite these phobias! It is

> truly

> a miracle!!! They hate the needles, but love the results! So we each have a

> duty to honor these patient's choice and make sure they feel safe, in

> control, and empowered in the healing process. Or, like in kokko's example,

> refer them out to another practitioner that might be a better fit for them.

>

> ~e

>

>

> > There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> > the

> > > one who disassociates

> > > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and

> pseudo-psychology

> > > and

> > > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> > transcendence,

> > > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book

> sections

> > and

> > > tell you which points

> > > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different

> acupuncturists

> > > and then keep window shopping.

> > > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone

> else

> > to

> > > go to.

> > > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > > sports, news

> > > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Excellent point, thanks for sharing. One thing I should have mentioned--I have

been the patient who was over-controlling, so I really do understand where they

are coming from. It is my tendency to be extremely understanding and give them

a whole lot of respect and just use the type of communication that you described

to handle the situation. As a former social worker, I tend to if anything go

over-board in that way. More often than not, I find that those patients turn

out to be the best patients in my practice.

 

But once in awhile I reach a point where I realize that no amount of respect and

communication will be enough and they are draining my qi to the point where I

just have to do something to take care of me. I actually had recently had a

patient like that when I wrote that post. I was a little hesitant to complain

about patients like that for fear of sounding like the very kind of

practitioners that I can't stand--eg: the type who are very into coming to

conclusions like, " Some people enjoy being sick and do not want to be well " .

I've met 1 person who seemed to fit that accusation in all my years of practice,

so although I think it is possible, I think it is very rare. Some practitioners

seem to be prone to thinking that way about their patients, and I am not--so I

didn't want to sound like I was.

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Edith Chan, L.Ac. "

<chineseherbs wrote:

>

> haven't had a chance to read this entire chain fully.. but did anyone

> suggest needling HT4 or HT7? that always seems to quiet down the over-talky

> patient right away. :->

>

> in terms of the " annoying " patient who tries to control the treatment

> details, some thoughts.... if a patient tells me that they always feel very

> good when a certain point is included, and I have no logical reason to

> object, then why not just do it for them? They're happy, I'm happy! Of

> course if there's good reason why i do not think that point is appropriate

> to include for their condition, then just simply explain it. I might say --

> " in my experience with cases like yours, my approach has been XX. The points

> are based on pattern-differentiation and channel theory. I have had

> consistently excellent results with cases like yours, and am optimistic that

> your case will be no exception. Would you like to try that treatment? " they

> always say yes!!! No drama, just straightup honest communication.

> Alternatively I might say - " ok, now we've done the main treatment point

> combo, we could add that one point that you always like, but i hesitate

> because i think it's not really in alignment with the overall treatment

> combo because of YYY reason. Or you might feel over-stimulated with too many

> points. And your pulse feels just right... How do you feel? I want to honor

> your intuition because you know your body better than anybody else. Myself

> included. What do you think? "

>

> I notice that once I demonstrate this level of respect for their

> intelligence and give them their power, the irony is that they always end up

> deferring back to me. So it seems if we want respect from our patients, we

> give them that respect first.

>

> And if I really don't feel comfortable doing the points or herbs that they

> request, I just say - " I don't feel comfortable with it because it goes

> directly against your diagnosis. I believe it will make your condition

> worse, so it would not be ethical for me to do that. I hope you understand. "

> Again no drama, just straight-up honesty.

>

> Many patients come to us after they've been burnt by conventional doctors

> who don't ever listen, so they feel they have to be extra assertive and

> extra talkative to get their opinions heard. Patients are learning to take

> control of their health and read books or study a little on their own.

> Acting like a know-it-all pseudo-expert is just a harmless part of their

> learning process, like adolescents know-it-all. Haven't we all been there

> ourselves? It's just a process and we grow out of it.

>

> In addition we all have patients who have needle-phobia and bravely come see

> us despite that phobia! Some people cannot handle needling in some parts of

> the body, or they easily feel panic attack or needle-shock from over

> stimulation (i was one such patient when i started TCM school myself). How

> amazing it is that they still come see us despite these phobias! It is truly

> a miracle!!! They hate the needles, but love the results! So we each have a

> duty to honor these patient's choice and make sure they feel safe, in

> control, and empowered in the healing process. Or, like in kokko's example,

> refer them out to another practitioner that might be a better fit for them.

>

> ~e

>

>

> > There's only one kind of small talker that really gets on my nerves....

> > the

> > > one who disassociates

> > > themselves from the world through new-agey concepts and pseudo-psychology

> > > and

> > > thinks that they're one step away from enlightenment (always

> > transcendence,

> > > not integrating in the Ground of Being).

> > > So, they lecture you about their own health and continual victimization

> > > process and psycho-somaticize everything.

> > > These are the ones who've dabbled in the Barnes and Nobles book sections

> > and

> > > tell you which points

> > > they want needled. They've gone to at least five different acupuncturists

> > > and then keep window shopping.

> > > I've had a couple of those and found a way for them to find someone else

> > to

> > > go to.

> > > Ever get one of those? of course.

> > > How do you work with this kind of " small-talk " , because talking about

> > > sports, news

> > > or other kinds of life issues doesn't feel like an energy-sucker.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> >

>

>

>