Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Anne Crowley Traditional Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Mark: What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " zedbowls " <zaranski " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Community Acupuncture hey Anne, What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. > Anne > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > <johnkokko > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > < Chinese Medicine > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > week. > > So cost of needles do make a difference. > > K > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > Our market value depends on a few things... > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management > > vs fertility etc) > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour > > etc.) > > > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one > > needle/ guide tube/ package). > > > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more > > for treatments than men. > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ > > week) > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, > > even though they need the care more than most. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > >> > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and > >> that is all lawyers push around. > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Yes, Angela, that is a steep number. My treatment fee, all same day, is $85. I guess I could relinquish $2 of that. Still keeping an open mind. I appreciate everyone's input on this. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. " <angelapfa " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 4, 2010 12:51:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Seirins  I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Anne Crowley Traditional Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Mark: What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " zedbowls " < zaranski > " Traditional " < Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Community Acupuncture hey Anne, What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. > Anne > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > <johnkokko > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > < Chinese Medicine > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > week. > > So cost of needles do make a difference. > > K > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > Our market value depends on a few things... > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management > > vs fertility etc) > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour > > etc.) > > > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one > > needle/ guide tube/ package). > > > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more > > for treatments than men. > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ > > week) > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, > > even though they need the care more than most. > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > >> > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and > >> that is all lawyers push around. > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Angela, My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. . . On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Anne Crowley > Traditional > Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Mark: > > What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. > > I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. > > Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. > > I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. > > I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. > > Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. > > I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. > > Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? > > I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " zedbowls " <zaranski > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Community Acupuncture > > hey Anne, > > What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? > > Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? > > We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > > > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. > > Anne > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > <johnkokko > > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > > < Chinese Medicine > > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > > > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > > > > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > > > > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > > > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > > week. > > > > So cost of needles do make a difference. > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > Our market value depends on a few things... > > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in > > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our > > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management > > > vs fertility etc) > > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour > > > etc.) > > > > > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important > > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I > > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one > > > needle/ guide tube/ package). > > > > > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more > > > for treatments than men. > > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ > > > week) > > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who > > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, > > > even though they need the care more than most. > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > > >> > > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > > >> > > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. > > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the > > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very > > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and > > >> that is all lawyers push around. > > >> > > >> Sean > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Z'ev, you seem to work in a more ideal context. I accept ASH, they pay $ 50 a visit, my billing service receives $ 5, and the performing provider $25 (50% of receivables), now the clinic is left with $20 and Seirins would take 10% out of the total, it's a bit too much. Also, I honestly think there is just no way you can afford every bit of education you would like to get, every piece of equipment, the best needles, etc. etc. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - " " <zrosenbe <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:27 AM Re: Seirins > Angela, > My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I > can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut > corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it > all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. . > . > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > >> I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on >> the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, >> however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in >> my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a >> treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about >> how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; >> essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must >> honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are >> uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. >> >> Regards, >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >> angelapfa >> >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >> >> Phone: 503 364 3022 >> - >> Anne Crowley >> Traditional >> Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM >> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >> >> Mark: >> >> What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . >> My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at >> a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I >> know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I >> am needling - so it all flows. >> >> I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide >> tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling >> block. >> >> Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those >> needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. >> >> I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the >> guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am >> using free hand. >> >> I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and >> some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here >> about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how >> it works. I like the vacation idea. >> >> Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - >> the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. >> >> I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the >> waste. >> >> Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump >> (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look >> like? >> >> I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train >> trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to >> refocus for my 10 patients today. >> >> Anne >> >> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. >> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com >> >> - >> " zedbowls " <zaranski >> " Traditional " >> <Chinese Medicine > >> Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Re: Community Acupuncture >> >> hey Anne, >> >> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, >> certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with >> sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? >> >> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? >> >> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats >> still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube >> does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand >> pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as >> smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so >> your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles >> and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. >> >> Mark Z >> >> Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley >> wrote: >> > >> > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on >> > serins. >> > Anne >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> > >> > >> > <johnkokko >> > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 >> > < Chinese Medicine > >> > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >> > >> > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: >> > >> > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each >> > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each >> > >> > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ >> > year (4 weeks off for vacation) >> > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month >> > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) >> > >> > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ >> > week. >> > >> > So cost of needles do make a difference. >> > >> > K >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: >> > >> > > Our market value depends on a few things... >> > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned >> > > (in >> > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) >> > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have >> > > our >> > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) >> > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces >> > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain >> > > management >> > > vs fertility etc) >> > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ >> > > hour >> > > etc.) >> > > >> > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so >> > > important >> > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), >> > > but I >> > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. >> > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic >> > > (one >> > > needle/ guide tube/ package). >> > > >> > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay >> > > more >> > > for treatments than men. >> > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment >> > > (once/ >> > > week) >> > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients >> > > (who >> > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) >> > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their >> > > treatments, >> > > even though they need the care more than most. >> > > >> > > >> > > K >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. >> > >> >> > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised >> > >> by it. >> > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to >> > >> the >> > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a >> > >> very >> > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, >> > >> too, and >> > >> that is all lawyers push around. >> > >> >> > >> Sean >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Z'ev, I agree that the best herbs and moxa are crucial... no cutting corners on that. For needles, are Seirins really 4 times better than DBCs? and is it worth creating all of that landfill waste? (one tube / needle) K On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < angelapfa wrote: > > > Z'ev, you seem to work in a more ideal context. I accept ASH, they pay $ 50 > > a visit, my billing service receives $ 5, and the performing provider $25 > (50% of receivables), now the clinic is left with $20 and Seirins would > take > 10% out of the total, it's a bit too much. Also, I honestly think there is > just no way you can afford every bit of education you would like to get, > every piece of equipment, the best needles, etc. etc. > > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > " " <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:27 AM > Re: Seirins > > > Angela, > > My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I > > can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut > > corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it > > > all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. > . > > . > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > > >> I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on > > >> the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, > >> however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in > >> my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a > >> treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about > > >> how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; > >> essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must > >> honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are > >> uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > >> > >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > >> > >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com > >> > >> Phone: 503 364 3022 > >> - > >> Anne Crowley > >> Traditional > >> Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM > >> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > >> > >> Mark: > >> > >> What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . > >> My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look > at > >> a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I > >> know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when > I > >> am needling - so it all flows. > >> > >> I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using > guide > >> tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling > >> block. > >> > >> Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those > > >> needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal > evidence. > >> > >> I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the > >> guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am > >> using free hand. > >> > >> I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and > >> some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here > >> about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how > > >> it works. I like the vacation idea. > >> > >> Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - > >> the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. > >> > >> I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the > >> waste. > >> > >> Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump > > >> (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look > >> like? > >> > >> I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train > >> trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to > >> refocus for my 10 patients today. > >> > >> Anne > >> > >> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > >> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > >> > >> - > >> " zedbowls " <zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net>> > >> " Traditional " > >> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > >> Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > >> Re: Community Acupuncture > >> > >> hey Anne, > >> > >> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, > >> certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with > >> sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? > >> > >> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? > >> > >> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats > >> still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube > >> does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand > >> pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as > >> smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so > > >> your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles > > >> and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. > >> > >> Mark Z > >> > >> --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, anne.crowley > > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on > > >> > serins. > >> > Anne > >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >> > > >> > > >> > <johnkokko > >> > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > >> > < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > >> > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > >> > > >> > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > >> > > >> > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > >> > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > >> > > >> > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > >> > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > >> > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > >> > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > >> > > >> > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > >> > week. > >> > > >> > So cost of needles do make a difference. > >> > > >> > K > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > >> > > >> > > Our market value depends on a few things... > >> > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we > learned > >> > > (in > >> > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > >> > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have > >> > > our > >> > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > >> > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > >> > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain > >> > > management > >> > > vs fertility etc) > >> > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ > >> > > hour > >> > > etc.) > >> > > > >> > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so > >> > > important > >> > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), > >> > > but I > >> > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > >> > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic > > >> > > (one > >> > > needle/ guide tube/ package). > >> > > > >> > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay > > >> > > more > >> > > for treatments than men. > >> > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment > >> > > (once/ > >> > > week) > >> > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients > >> > > (who > >> > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > >> > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their > >> > > treatments, > >> > > even though they need the care more than most. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > K > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > >> > >> > >> > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised > > >> > >> by it. > >> > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal > to > >> > >> the > >> > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a > > >> > >> very > >> > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, > >> > >> too, and > >> > >> that is all lawyers push around. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Angela, you're seeing about 100 patients/ week. Are you doing community acupuncture? I agree that most people really care more about results, not so much about completely painless treatments. The first treatment is definitely important though to gain their trust that acupuncture doesn't hurt. K On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < angelapfa wrote: > > > I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on > the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, > however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my > clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, > that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much > equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost > make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I > occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle > sensation, but it's pretty rare. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Anne Crowley > Traditional > Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Mark: > > What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My > acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a > green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know > exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am > needling - so it all flows. > > I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide > tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. > > Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those > needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. > > I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide > tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free > hand. > > I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and > some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about > needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. > I like the vacation idea. > > Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the > word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. > > I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. > > > Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump > (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? > > > I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip > last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus > for my 10 patients today. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " zedbowls " <zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net>> > " Traditional " < > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Community Acupuncture > > hey Anne, > > What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, > certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with > sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? > > Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? > > We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still > >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us > is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we > open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins > due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily > tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO > much less packaging per 1000 needles. > > Mark Z > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, anne.crowley > wrote: > > > > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on > serins. > > Anne > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > <johnkokko > > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > > < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > > > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > > > > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > > > > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > > > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > > week. > > > > So cost of needles do make a difference. > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > Our market value depends on a few things... > > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned > (in > > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our > > > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain > management > > > vs fertility etc) > > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour > > > > etc.) > > > > > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so > important > > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but > I > > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic > (one > > > needle/ guide tube/ package). > > > > > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay > more > > > for treatments than men. > > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment > (once/ > > > week) > > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who > > > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their > treatments, > > > even though they need the care more than most. > > > > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > > >> > > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > > >> > > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by > it. > > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to > the > > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a > very > > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, > and > > >> that is all lawyers push around. > > >> > > >> Sean > > >> > > >> > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Like I said, I like the Unico needles, plus they have one tube per four needles. I don't like plastic handles or silicon coating, like the Seirins. I haven't tried the DBC's, I'll do so soon. Z'ev On Mar 4, 2010, at 6:44 PM, wrote: > Z'ev, I agree that the best herbs and moxa are crucial... no cutting corners > on that. > For needles, are Seirins really 4 times better than DBCs? > and is it worth creating all of that landfill waste? (one tube / needle) > > K > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < > angelapfa wrote: > >> >> >> Z'ev, you seem to work in a more ideal context. I accept ASH, they pay $ 50 >> >> a visit, my billing service receives $ 5, and the performing provider $25 >> (50% of receivables), now the clinic is left with $20 and Seirins would >> take >> 10% out of the total, it's a bit too much. Also, I honestly think there is >> just no way you can afford every bit of education you would like to get, >> every piece of equipment, the best needles, etc. etc. >> >> >> Regards, >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >> >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >> >> Phone: 503 364 3022 >> - >> " " <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> >> To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >>> >> Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:27 AM >> Re: Seirins >> >>> Angela, >>> My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I >>> can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut >>> corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it >> >>> all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. >> . >>> . >>> >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: >>> >>>> I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on >> >>>> the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, >>>> however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in >>>> my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a >>>> treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about >> >>>> how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; >>>> essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must >>>> honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are >>>> uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >>>> >>>> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >>>> >>>> Phone: 503 364 3022 >>>> - >>>> Anne Crowley >>>> Traditional >>>> Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM >>>> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> >>>> What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . >>>> My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look >> at >>>> a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I >>>> know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when >> I >>>> am needling - so it all flows. >>>> >>>> I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using >> guide >>>> tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling >>>> block. >>>> >>>> Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those >> >>>> needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal >> evidence. >>>> >>>> I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the >>>> guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am >>>> using free hand. >>>> >>>> I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and >>>> some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here >>>> about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how >> >>>> it works. I like the vacation idea. >>>> >>>> Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - >>>> the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. >>>> >>>> I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the >>>> waste. >>>> >>>> Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump >> >>>> (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look >>>> like? >>>> >>>> I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train >>>> trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to >>>> refocus for my 10 patients today. >>>> >>>> Anne >>>> >>>> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. >>>> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com >>>> >>>> - >>>> " zedbowls " <zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net>> >>>> " Traditional " >>>> <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> >>> >>>> Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >>>> Re: Community Acupuncture >>>> >>>> hey Anne, >>>> >>>> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, >>>> certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with >>>> sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? >>>> >>>> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? >>>> >>>> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats >>>> still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube >>>> does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand >>>> pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as >>>> smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so >> >>>> your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles >> >>>> and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. >>>> >>>> Mark Z >>>> >>>> --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, anne.crowley >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on >> >>>>> serins. >>>>> Anne >>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <johnkokko >>>>> Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 >>>>> < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> >>>>> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >>>>> >>>>> Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: >>>>> >>>>> Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each >>>>> DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each >>>>> >>>>> 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ >>>>> year (4 weeks off for vacation) >>>>> = DBC $9/ week $36 / month >>>>> about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) >>>>> >>>>> The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ >>>>> week. >>>>> >>>>> So cost of needles do make a difference. >>>>> >>>>> K >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Our market value depends on a few things... >>>>>> 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we >> learned >>>>>> (in >>>>>> school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) >>>>>> 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have >>>>>> our >>>>>> clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) >>>>>> 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces >>>>>> 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain >>>>>> management >>>>>> vs fertility etc) >>>>>> 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ >>>>>> hour >>>>>> etc.) >>>>>> >>>>>> A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so >>>>>> important >>>>>> from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), >>>>>> but I >>>>>> guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. >>>>>> The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic >> >>>>>> (one >>>>>> needle/ guide tube/ package). >>>>>> >>>>>> This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay >> >>>>>> more >>>>>> for treatments than men. >>>>>> Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment >>>>>> (once/ >>>>>> week) >>>>>> Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients >>>>>> (who >>>>>> have a high insurance cost / month as well) >>>>>> and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their >>>>>> treatments, >>>>>> even though they need the care more than most. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> K >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised >> >>>>>>> by it. >>>>>>> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal >> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a >> >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, >>>>>>> too, and >>>>>>> that is all lawyers push around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Where do you get the Unico needles? I just put an order in for some DBC's at the different guages and will try them. Believe it or not my biggest problem with the serins is how many packages I have to open. I have an injury on my left hand from it. Seems funny, but true. Of course a very important issue is also waste. Thanks, Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " " <zrosenbe " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 4, 2010 10:55:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Seirins  Like I said, I like the Unico needles, plus they have one tube per four needles. I don't like plastic handles or silicon coating, like the Seirins. I haven't tried the DBC's, I'll do so soon. Z'ev On Mar 4, 2010, at 6:44 PM, wrote: > Z'ev, I agree that the best herbs and moxa are crucial... no cutting corners > on that. > For needles, are Seirins really 4 times better than DBCs? > and is it worth creating all of that landfill waste? (one tube / needle) > > K > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < > angelapfa > wrote: > >> >> >> Z'ev, you seem to work in a more ideal context. I accept ASH, they pay $ 50 >> >> a visit, my billing service receives $ 5, and the performing provider $25 >> (50% of receivables), now the clinic is left with $20 and Seirins would >> take >> 10% out of the total, it's a bit too much. Also, I honestly think there is >> just no way you can afford every bit of education you would like to get, >> every piece of equipment, the best needles, etc. etc. >> >> >> Regards, >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >> >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >> >> Phone: 503 364 3022 >> - >> " " < zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> >> < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> >> Thursday, March 04, 2010 10:27 AM >> Re: Seirins >> >>> Angela, >>> My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I >>> can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut >>> corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it >> >>> all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. >> . >>> . >>> >>> >>> On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: >>> >>>> I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on >> >>>> the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, >>>> however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in >>>> my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a >>>> treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about >> >>>> how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; >>>> essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must >>>> honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are >>>> uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >>>> >>>> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >>>> >>>> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >>>> >>>> Phone: 503 364 3022 >>>> - >>>> Anne Crowley >>>> Traditional >>>> Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM >>>> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >>>> >>>> Mark: >>>> >>>> What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . >>>> My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look >> at >>>> a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I >>>> know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when >> I >>>> am needling - so it all flows. >>>> >>>> I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using >> guide >>>> tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling >>>> block. >>>> >>>> Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those >> >>>> needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal >> evidence. >>>> >>>> I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the >>>> guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am >>>> using free hand. >>>> >>>> I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and >>>> some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here >>>> about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how >> >>>> it works. I like the vacation idea. >>>> >>>> Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - >>>> the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. >>>> >>>> I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the >>>> waste. >>>> >>>> Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump >> >>>> (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look >>>> like? >>>> >>>> I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train >>>> trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to >>>> refocus for my 10 patients today. >>>> >>>> Anne >>>> >>>> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. >>>> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com >>>> >>>> - >>>> " zedbowls " < zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net>> >>>> " Traditional " >>>> < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> >>> >>>> Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >>>> Re: Community Acupuncture >>>> >>>> hey Anne, >>>> >>>> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, >>>> certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with >>>> sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? >>>> >>>> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? >>>> >>>> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats >>>> still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube >>>> does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand >>>> pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as >>>> smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so >> >>>> your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles >> >>>> and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. >>>> >>>> Mark Z >>>> >>>> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40>, anne.crowley >> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on >> >>>>> serins. >>>>> Anne >>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <johnkokko >>>>> Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 >>>>> < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40>> >>>>> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >>>>> >>>>> Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: >>>>> >>>>> Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each >>>>> DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each >>>>> >>>>> 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ >>>>> year (4 weeks off for vacation) >>>>> = DBC $9/ week $36 / month >>>>> about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) >>>>> >>>>> The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ >>>>> week. >>>>> >>>>> So cost of needles do make a difference. >>>>> >>>>> K >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Our market value depends on a few things... >>>>>> 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we >> learned >>>>>> (in >>>>>> school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) >>>>>> 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have >>>>>> our >>>>>> clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) >>>>>> 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces >>>>>> 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain >>>>>> management >>>>>> vs fertility etc) >>>>>> 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ >>>>>> hour >>>>>> etc.) >>>>>> >>>>>> A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so >>>>>> important >>>>>> from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), >>>>>> but I >>>>>> guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. >>>>>> The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic >> >>>>>> (one >>>>>> needle/ guide tube/ package). >>>>>> >>>>>> This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay >> >>>>>> more >>>>>> for treatments than men. >>>>>> Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment >>>>>> (once/ >>>>>> week) >>>>>> Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients >>>>>> (who >>>>>> have a high insurance cost / month as well) >>>>>> and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their >>>>>> treatments, >>>>>> even though they need the care more than most. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> K >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised >> >>>>>>> by it. >>>>>>> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal >> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a >> >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, >>>>>>> too, and >>>>>>> that is all lawyers push around. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 - " " <johnkokko <Chinese Medicine > Thursday, March 04, 2010 7:34 PM Re: Seirins > Angela, you're seeing about 100 patients/ week. Are you doing community > acupuncture? No, I am not seeing 100 people a week, I have another acupuncturist working here, but I provide all supplies for the clinic. Angela Pf. > > I agree that most people really care more about results, not so much about > completely painless treatments. > The first treatment is definitely important though to gain their trust that > acupuncture doesn't hurt. > > K > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. < > angelapfa wrote: > >> >> >> I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on >> the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, >> however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my >> clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, >> that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much >> equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost >> make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I >> occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle >> sensation, but it's pretty rare. >> >> Regards, >> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >> angelapfa <angelapfa%40comcast.net> >> >> www.InnerhealthSalem.com >> >> Phone: 503 364 3022 >> - >> Anne Crowley >> Traditional >> Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM >> Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >> >> Mark: >> >> What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My >> acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a >> green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know >> exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am >> needling - so it all flows. >> >> I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide >> tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. >> >> Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those >> needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. >> >> I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide >> tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free >> hand. >> >> I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and >> some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about >> needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. >> I like the vacation idea. >> >> Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the >> word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. >> >> I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. >> >> >> Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump >> (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? >> >> >> I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip >> last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus >> for my 10 patients today. >> >> Anne >> >> Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. >> www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com >> >> - >> " zedbowls " <zaranski <zaranski%40verizon.net>> >> " Traditional " < >> Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> >> >> Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern >> Re: Community Acupuncture >> >> hey Anne, >> >> What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, >> certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with >> sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? >> >> Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? >> >> We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >> >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us >> is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we >> open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins >> due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily >> tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO >> much less packaging per 1000 needles. >> >> Mark Z >> >> --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, anne.crowley >> wrote: >> > >> > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on >> serins. >> > Anne >> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> > >> > >> > <johnkokko >> > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 >> > < Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> >> > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture >> > >> > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: >> > >> > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each >> > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each >> > >> > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ >> > year (4 weeks off for vacation) >> > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month >> > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) >> > >> > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ >> > week. >> > >> > So cost of needles do make a difference. >> > >> > K >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: >> > >> > > Our market value depends on a few things... >> > > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned >> (in >> > > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) >> > > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our >> >> > > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) >> > > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces >> > > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain >> management >> > > vs fertility etc) >> > > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour >> >> > > etc.) >> > > >> > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so >> important >> > > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but >> I >> > > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. >> > > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic >> (one >> > > needle/ guide tube/ package). >> > > >> > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay >> more >> > > for treatments than men. >> > > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment >> (once/ >> > > week) >> > > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who >> >> > > have a high insurance cost / month as well) >> > > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their >> treatments, >> > > even though they need the care more than most. >> > > >> > > >> > > K >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: >> > > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. >> > >> >> > >> I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by >> it. >> > >> Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to >> the >> > >> cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a >> very >> > >> small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, >> and >> > >> that is all lawyers push around. >> > >> >> > >> Sean >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Dear Z'ev Can you use estim with serin? On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbe wrote: Angela, My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. . . On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Anne Crowley Traditional Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Mark: What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " zedbowls " <zaranski " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Community Acupuncture hey Anne, What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. Anne Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry <johnkokko Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 < Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ year (4 weeks off for vacation) = DBC $9/ week $36 / month about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ week. So cost of needles do make a difference. K On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: Our market value depends on a few things... 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management vs fertility etc) 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour etc.) A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one needle/ guide tube/ package). This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more for treatments than men. Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ week) Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who have a high insurance cost / month as well) and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, even though they need the care more than most. K On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and that is all lawyers push around. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 I've been using DBCs for 11 years now and love them. I have had just two " pokey " complaints in all that time. I used the pack 10 .18 X .30s for a long time, but then changed to the .20 X .30 because they were a lot stiffer and I treat a lot of musculo-skeletal conditions. I reserve the .18 X .30s now for my few very sensitive patients. At 1.9 cents per needle and nearly no waste, it's the perfect needle for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Seirin has a whole line of different needles, including all metal needles that you can use with electro, or you can use the mini clips that go onto the needle shaft. Most of my pain complaints occur when I needle Long Gu/Da bai deeper on the hand, and then I always use seirins. What do people think about the notion that the needle causes a small injury and when the body tries to heal that injury, it bring negative electrons to the site which charges/affects the point for several days? It kind of makes intuitive sense to me. And it would mean you might not want to use the smallest, smoothest needles all the time. I personally heard Tan saying that larger needles create better treatment effects in terms of pain management. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Michele Chinese Medicine Cc: Chinese Medicine Friday, March 05, 2010 10:00 AM Re: Seirins Dear Z'ev Can you use estim with serin? On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbe wrote: Angela, My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. . . On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. Regards, Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. angelapfa www.InnerhealthSalem.com Phone: 503 364 3022 - Anne Crowley Traditional Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Mark: What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " zedbowls " <zaranski " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Community Acupuncture hey Anne, What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. Anne Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry <johnkokko Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 < Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ year (4 weeks off for vacation) = DBC $9/ week $36 / month about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ week. So cost of needles do make a difference. K On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: Our market value depends on a few things... 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management vs fertility etc) 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour etc.) A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one needle/ guide tube/ package). This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more for treatments than men. Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ week) Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who have a high insurance cost / month as well) and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, even though they need the care more than most. K On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and that is all lawyers push around. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 One very busy clinician famous for success with pain (who needles primarily Tan-style) free-hands .30mm DBCs and is often seen sinking two or three (held together) simultaneously into points such as LI 11 and GB 30. Mark Z Angela Pfaffenberger wrote: > I personally heard Tan saying that larger needles create better treatment effects in terms of pain management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Mark, Is this style something he invented or is it common? Is their a needling technique name for this? There are other techniques such as chicken claw (he gu ci) and turtle searches for the hole and team needling (Qi ci) That's the first time I heard of using two or three needles at once. Thanks, K On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:45 PM, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: > > > One very busy clinician famous for success with pain (who needles primarily > Tan-style) free-hands .30mm DBCs and is often seen sinking two or three > (held together) simultaneously into points such as LI 11 and GB 30. > > Mark Z > > > Angela Pfaffenberger wrote: > > I personally heard Tan saying that larger needles create better treatment > effects in terms of pain management. > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2010 Report Share Posted March 6, 2010 Dr. Zhu inserts three needles at a time in some of his scalp acupuncture treatments for stroke symptoms. They are inserted side-by-side and stimulated pretty intensely. - Bill Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko wrote: > > Mark, > Is this style something he invented or is it common? Is their a needling > technique name for this? > There are other techniques such as chicken claw (he gu ci) and turtle > searches for the hole and team needling (Qi ci) > That's the first time I heard of using two or three needles at once. > > Thanks, > K > > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:45 PM, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: > > > > > > > One very busy clinician famous for success with pain (who needles primarily > > Tan-style) free-hands .30mm DBCs and is often seen sinking two or three > > (held together) simultaneously into points such as LI 11 and GB 30. > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > Angela Pfaffenberger wrote: > > > I personally heard Tan saying that larger needles create better treatment > > effects in terms of pain management. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 he said " if I want a lot of qi I use two or three needles sometimes. " MZ Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko wrote: > > Mark, > Is this style something he invented or is it common? Is their a needling > technique name for this? > There are other techniques such as chicken claw (he gu ci) and turtle > searches for the hole and team needling (Qi ci) > That's the first time I heard of using two or three needles at once. > > Thanks, > K > > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:45 PM, zedbowls <zaranski wrote: > > > > > > > One very busy clinician famous for success with pain (who needles primarily > > Tan-style) free-hands .30mm DBCs and is often seen sinking two or three > > (held together) simultaneously into points such as LI 11 and GB 30. > > > > Mark Z > > > > > > Angela Pfaffenberger wrote: > > > I personally heard Tan saying that larger needles create better treatment > > effects in terms of pain management. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2010 Report Share Posted March 7, 2010 Sorry to jump the discussion back; I like the idea of big stimulation if you are using a distal system, which is what I assuming is how " Tan style " is meant. Mostly I am just happy to resound with others who enjoy DBC10's as much as I do. Superior needle at a super price! Slick little Seirin needles kinda suck really, especially if you have to use 3 needles to properly stimulate a distal point. One of the classical techniques, one needle with two beside. Denise Hsu did HeGuCi, chicken claw at LI-4 once, very pretty. Can anyone remember any notable needle arrays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2010 Report Share Posted March 8, 2010 Dear Groupmembers In my practice I use a lot of E Stim Is it safe or advisable to use a silicon coated needle such as a Serin with E Stim? ________________________________ cameronhollister <cameronhollister Chinese Medicine Sat, March 6, 2010 10:04:16 PM Re: Seirins  Sorry to jump the discussion back; I like the idea of big stimulation if you are using a distal system, which is what I assuming is how " Tan style " is meant. Mostly I am just happy to resound with others who enjoy DBC10's as much as I do. Superior needle at a super price! Slick little Seirin needles kinda suck really, especially if you have to use 3 needles to properly stimulate a distal point. One of the classical techniques, one needle with two beside. Denise Hsu did HeGuCi, chicken claw at LI-4 once, very pretty. Can anyone remember any notable needle arrays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand to buy in my wholesaler. Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or out. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Yuk-ming, You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also needle children and elderly people with no problem. I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best available right now, no silicon. . . On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand to buy in my wholesaler. > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or out. > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Z'ev, where do you get your Unico needles? Thanks, K On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > Yuk-ming, > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their > needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing > insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine > one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from > the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety > in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also > needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when > you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best > available right now, no silicon. . . > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of > silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase > the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like > other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. > It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand > to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am > from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is > inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide > what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was > available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes > ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or > out. > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 A benefit of Seirins when you work in an Irish-dominant ethnic context is that on St Patrick's Day, you can use the Green plastic handled needles (warning - they are hyper ultra thin! which is a challenge with thick-skinned Irishmen). Its a great practice builder and brings levity into the treatment room! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Z'ev, Thanks for the mention of the Unicos- I will give them a try. I do want to chime in though that some of my pediatric patients prefer the .25 Carbo needles with a " thunk " at insertion over thin needles and more subtle technique. They recognize the difference in needles even with the same technique performed. Getting to know the patient is the key IME. Paul Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Yuk-ming, > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best available right now, no silicon. . . > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or out. > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Dear Mr Rosenberg, Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making insertion painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you are amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American patients. However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by saying 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are using? It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not particularly like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with needles in the first place. I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to machine-made. It feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing free hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The most important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their techniques of needle-insertion. I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. He was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I prefer insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the insertion tube. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I was getting them from Kenshin, but they will not be able to get them for at least three months now. . Z'ev On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:04 AM, wrote: > Z'ev, > where do you get your Unico needles? > > Thanks, > K > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Yuk-ming, > > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their > > needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing > > insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine > > one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from > > the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety > > in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also > > needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when > > you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best > > available right now, no silicon. . . > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of > > silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase > > the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like > > other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. > > It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand > > to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am > > from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is > > inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide > > what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was > > available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes > > ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or > > out. > > > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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