Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 My wife is Japanese and we go to Japan annually. We know a few Japanese acupuncturists, both sighted and blind, and we have never seen Seirens used in Japan. Although they may be labeled Japanese needles, they are not used there as far as I know. We know practitioners in Tokyo, Kyoto, and around the Osaka area and have yet to see them used. Sinserely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > Chinese Medicine > zrosenbe > Tue, 9 Mar 2010 07:58:50 -0800 > Re: Seirins > > I was getting them from Kenshin, but they will not be able to get them for at least three months now. . > > Z'ev > On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:04 AM, wrote: > > > Z'ev, > > where do you get your Unico needles? > > > > Thanks, > > K > > > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > > Yuk-ming, > > > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their > > > needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing > > > insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine > > > one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from > > > the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety > > > in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also > > > needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > > > > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when > > > you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best > > > available right now, no silicon. . . > > > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > > > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of > > > silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase > > > the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like > > > other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. > > > It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand > > > to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am > > > from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is > > > inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide > > > what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was > > > available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes > > > ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or > > > out. > > > > > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Dr Yuk Ming, the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the guide-tube can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle through the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and take the place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the same needle just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and guide-tube and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to palpate, while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and inserts the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, you might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the depth of the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the traditional Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the needle more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of the Qi current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the needle should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was written because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the needle if you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no problem at all while doing this. K On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote: > > > Dear Mr Rosenberg, > > Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high > quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making insertion > painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you are > amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American patients. > However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by saying > 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are using? > > > It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the > quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not particularly > like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. > > For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with > needles in the first place. > > I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to machine-made. It > feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing free > hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The most > important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their > techniques of needle-insertion. > > I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. He > was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I prefer > insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can > insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the > insertion tube. > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Where else can you go, Zev? I had check their website too. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " " <zrosenbe " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:58:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Seirins I was getting them from Kenshin, but they will not be able to get them for at least three months now. . Z'ev On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:04 AM, wrote: > Z'ev, > where do you get your Unico needles? > > Thanks, > K > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > Yuk-ming, > > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their > > needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing > > insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine > > one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from > > the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety > > in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also > > needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when > > you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best > > available right now, no silicon. . . > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of > > silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase > > the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like > > other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. > > It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand > > to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am > > from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is > > inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide > > what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was > > available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes > > ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or > > out. > > > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I haven't found anywhere else yet, I think Kenshin has an exclusive. On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:26 AM, Anne Crowley wrote: > > > Where else can you go, Zev? I had check their website too. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " " <zrosenbe > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Tuesday, March 9, 2010 10:58:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Seirins > > I was getting them from Kenshin, but they will not be able to get them for at least three months now. . > > Z'ev > On Mar 9, 2010, at 12:04 AM, wrote: > > > Z'ev, > > where do you get your Unico needles? > > > > Thanks, > > K > > > > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:56 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > > Yuk-ming, > > > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their > > > needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing > > > insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine > > > one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from > > > the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety > > > in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also > > > needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > > > > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when > > > you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best > > > available right now, no silicon. . . > > > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > > > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of > > > silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase > > > the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like > > > other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. > > > It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand > > > to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am > > > from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is > > > inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide > > > what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was > > > available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes > > > ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or > > > out. > > > > > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Hi K What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using the same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection personally I would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on myself so would not adopt it for my clients. Ray On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko wrote: > Dr Yuk Ming, > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the guide-tube > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle through > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and take the > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the same needle > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and guide-tube > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to palpate, > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and inserts > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, you > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the depth of > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the traditional > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the needle > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of the Qi > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the needle > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was written > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the needle if > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no problem at > all while doing this. > > K > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote: > >> >> >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, >> >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making insertion >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you are >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American patients. >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by saying >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are using? >> >> >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not particularly >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. >> >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with >> needles in the first place. >> >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to machine-made. It >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing free >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The most >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their >> techniques of needle-insertion. >> >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. He >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I prefer >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the >> insertion tube. >> >> Sung, Yuk-ming >> >> >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Ray, I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same needle on multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. But, historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of us use these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in the states. Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? Less points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only a few needles in their kit/ collection. Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and for the sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . K On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < ray wrote: > > > Hi K > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using the > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection personally I > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on myself so > would not adopt it for my clients. > Ray > > > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > Dr Yuk Ming, > > > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the guide-tube > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle > through > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and take the > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the same > needle > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and > guide-tube > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to palpate, > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and > inserts > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, you > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm > > > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the depth > of > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the > traditional > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the needle > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of the Qi > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the > needle > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was > written > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the needle > if > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no problem > at > > all while doing this. > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649<sxm2649%40163.com>> > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, > >> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making > insertion > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you > are > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American patients. > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by > saying > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are > using? > >> > >> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not > particularly > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. > >> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with > >> needles in the first place. > >> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to machine-made. > It > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing > free > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The > most > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their > >> techniques of needle-insertion. > >> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. > He > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I prefer > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the > >> insertion tube. > >> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Ok, so where are we then with seven star needling? There really is little difference between a superficially inserted Japanese needle and a seven star needle. Anyone? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:59:41 -0800 Re: Seirins Ray, I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same needle on multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. But, historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of us use these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in the states. Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? Less points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only a few needles in their kit/ collection. Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and for the sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . K On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < ray wrote: > > > Hi K > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using the > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection personally I > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on myself so > would not adopt it for my clients. > Ray > > > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > Dr Yuk Ming, > > > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the guide-tube > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle > through > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and take the > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the same > needle > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and > guide-tube > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to palpate, > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and > inserts > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, you > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm > > > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the depth > of > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the > traditional > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the needle > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of the Qi > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the > needle > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was > written > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the needle > if > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no problem > at > > all while doing this. > > > > K > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649<sxm2649%40163.com>> > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, > >> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making > insertion > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you > are > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American patients. > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by > saying > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are > using? > >> > >> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not > particularly > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. > >> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with > >> needles in the first place. > >> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to machine-made. > It > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing > free > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The > most > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their > >> techniques of needle-insertion. > >> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. > He > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I prefer > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the > >> insertion tube. > >> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Lisa, et. al: I just ordered some DBC's .16 X 15 equivalent to Serin 1/2 inch red and .18 X 30 equivalent to Serins 1 inch yellow. I am noticing, particularly the yellow one is bending more than the Serin. I don't know if it is just me and I am thinking of it more like a 3 gauge when I put it in. Does anyone else have experience with needles bending? BTW, loved the packaging - my hand feels better already. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " pdgamache2 " <pdgamache " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:37:35 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Re: Seirins  Z'ev, Thanks for the mention of the Unicos- I will give them a try. I do want to chime in though that some of my pediatric patients prefer the .25 Carbo needles with a " thunk " at insertion over thin needles and more subtle technique. They recognize the difference in needles even with the same technique performed. Getting to know the patient is the key IME. Paul Chinese Medicine , <zrosenbe wrote: > > Yuk-ming, > You are missing the point (no pun intended). The Japanese refined their needle technology beyond the Chinese, in my opinion, and by developing insertion tubes, made insertion much less painful. One can only refine one's technique using very fine needles. For myself, I use all gauges from the ultra-thin (00, or 40+) to thick (5, or 30-), but it allows for subtlety in working with sensitive patients to use the thin needles. I can also needle children and elderly people with no problem. > > I am not a fan of silicon, but Japanese needles have finer points when you look under a jeweler's glass. I think Unico needles are the best available right now, no silicon. . . > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Yuk Ming wrote: > > > I am also very interested to know more about the benefits of silicon-coated needles such as Serins. I have to admit that I would purchase the least expensive needles as they seem no differences to me, just like other CHA members suggested. The cheaper brand is doing fine. > > > > I really don't mind the price difference if Serins shows its superiority. It costs US$20/pack of 100 needles for Serin and US$3 for the lowest brand to buy in my wholesaler. > > > > Sorry I cannot contribute much about brands u have been using, as I am from other pond. I can share my difficuties with you and hope it is inspiring. When I did my training in China, it is not up to us to decide what size or quality of needles we prefer. It depended upon what was available. I remember using very fine needles(the thinnest) and it takes ages to complete insertion, free-hand. I guess the tough will get going or out. > > > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 K Before disposable needles there was steralization using autoclave.I am not sure about your point of less needles as my experience in China on many many visits was quite the opposite ie the majority of Doctors I witnessed actually covered their patients with needles often anywhere from 20 to 40 needles sometimes more.I think it was similar in the west back in the day. Ray On 11/03/10 6:59 PM, " " <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same needle on > multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible > autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. But, > historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of us use > these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in the > states. > Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? Less > points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only a few > needles in their kit/ collection. > Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and for the > sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . > > K > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < > ray <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > Hi K >> > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using the >> > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection personally I >> > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on myself so >> > would not adopt it for my clients. >> > Ray >> > >> > >> > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko >> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> >> > wrote: >> > >>> > > Dr Yuk Ming, >>> > > >>> > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the >>> guide-tube >>> > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle >> > through >>> > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and take the >>> > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the same >> > needle >>> > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and >> > guide-tube >>> > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to >>> palpate, >>> > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and >> > inserts >>> > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, you >>> > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. >>> > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm >>> > > >>> > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the depth >> > of >>> > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the >> > traditional >>> > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the needle >>> > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of the Qi >>> > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the >> > needle >>> > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was >> > written >>> > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the needle >> > if >>> > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no problem >> > at >>> > > all while doing this. >>> > > >>> > > K >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 >>> <sxm2649%40163.com> <sxm2649%40163.com>> >> > wrote: >>> > > >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the high >>>> > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes making >> > insertion >>>> > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say 'Doctor, you >> > are >>>> > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American >>>> patients. >>>> > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist by >> > saying >>>> > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you are >> > using? >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated with the >>>> > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not >> > particularly >>>> > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated with >>>> > >> needles in the first place. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to >>>> machine-made. >> > It >>>> > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, doing >> > free >>>> > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran acupuncturist. The >> > most >>>> > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect their >>>> > >> techniques of needle-insertion. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with tube. >> > He >>>> > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I >>>> prefer >>>> > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now everyone can >>>> > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a profession, the >>>> > >> insertion tube. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Ray, we're talking about 2 different time periods... I was talking about the times before needles were mass manufactured, when you really cherished the needles you owned and didn't throw them away. These were the days before autoclaves were invented, not talking about the last 60 years. When you read the classics, it always talks about less points with more technique. Master Tung's disciples still practice this way and so do people who studied under family styles, that are not exactly institutionalized, ie... Dr. Andrew Tseng's students who practice in the SF area. Actually, I don't know exactly where the 20+ needle treatment came from in the classics... The Japanese in the 20s were really concerned about going back to the classics, such as more superficial needling, less retention time and channel theory understanding, but I don't know where so many points being used developed. Bao ci treatment follows the pain, but this is only one technique among 26 listed in the Neijing: 9 needles/ 12 channels / 5 zang. K On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:50 PM, raymond ford <ray > wrote: > > > K > Before disposable needles there was steralization using autoclave.I am not > sure about your point of less needles as my experience in China on many > many > visits was quite the opposite ie the majority of Doctors I witnessed > actually covered their patients with needles often anywhere from 20 to 40 > needles sometimes more.I think it was similar in the west back in the day. > Ray > > > > On 11/03/10 6:59 PM, " " <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same needle > on > > multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible > > autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. But, > > historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of us use > > these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in the > > states. > > Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? Less > > points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only a few > > needles in their kit/ collection. > > Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and for the > > sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . > > > > K > > > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < > > ray <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> < > ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au <ray%2540rayfordacupuncture.com.au>> > > > > wrote: > > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi K > >> > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using > the > >> > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection > personally I > >> > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on > myself so > >> > would not adopt it for my clients. > >> > Ray > >> > > >> > > >> > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > >> <johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>> <johnkokko% > 40gmail.com>> > > >> > wrote: > >> > > >>> > > Dr Yuk Ming, > >>> > > > >>> > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the > >>> guide-tube > >>> > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle > >> > through > >>> > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and > take the > >>> > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the > same > >> > needle > >>> > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and > >> > guide-tube > >>> > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to > >>> palpate, > >>> > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and > >> > inserts > >>> > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, > you > >>> > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. > >>> > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm > >>> > > > >>> > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the > depth > >> > of > >>> > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the > >> > traditional > >>> > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the > needle > >>> > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of > the Qi > >>> > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the > >> > needle > >>> > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was > >> > written > >>> > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the > needle > >> > if > >>> > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no > problem > >> > at > >>> > > all while doing this. > >>> > > > >>> > > K > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649<sxm2649%40163.com> > >>> <sxm2649%40163.com <sxm2649%2540163.com>> <sxm2649%40163.com>> > > >> > wrote: > >>> > > > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the > high > >>>> > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes > making > >> > insertion > >>>> > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say > 'Doctor, > you > >> > are > >>>> > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American > >>>> patients. > >>>> > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an acupuncturist > by > >> > saying > >>>> > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you > are > >> > using? > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated > with > the > >>>> > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not > >> > particularly > >>>> > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated > with > >>>> > >> needles in the first place. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to > >>>> machine-made. > >> > It > >>>> > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, > doing > >> > free > >>>> > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran > acupuncturist. The > >> > most > >>>> > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect > their > >>>> > >> techniques of needle-insertion. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing insertion with > tube. > >> > He > >>>> > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I > >>>> > prefer > >>>> > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now > everyone can > >>>> > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a > profession, the > >>>> > >> insertion tube. > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 OK k thanks Ray On 15/03/10 5:58 PM, " " <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > we're talking about 2 different time periods... > I was talking about the times before needles were mass manufactured, > when you really cherished the needles you owned and didn't throw them away. > These were the days before autoclaves were invented, > not talking about the last 60 years. > > When you read the classics, it always talks about less points with more > technique. > Master Tung's disciples still practice this way and so do people who studied > under family styles, > that are not exactly institutionalized, ie... Dr. Andrew Tseng's students > who practice in the SF area. > > Actually, I don't know exactly where the 20+ needle treatment came from in > the classics... > The Japanese in the 20s were really concerned about going back to the > classics, > such as more superficial needling, less retention time and channel theory > understanding, > but I don't know where so many points being used developed. > Bao ci treatment follows the pain, but this is only one technique among 26 > listed in the Neijing: > 9 needles/ 12 channels / 5 zang. > > K > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:50 PM, raymond ford <ray > <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > K >> > Before disposable needles there was steralization using autoclave.I am not >> > sure about your point of less needles as my experience in China on many >> > many >> > visits was quite the opposite ie the majority of Doctors I witnessed >> > actually covered their patients with needles often anywhere from 20 to 40 >> > needles sometimes more.I think it was similar in the west back in the day. >> > Ray >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/03/10 6:59 PM, " " <johnkokko >> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com>> >> > wrote: >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Ray, >>> > > I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same >>> needle >> > on >>> > > multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible >>> > > autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. But, >>> > > historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of us use >>> > > these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in the >>> > > states. >>> > > Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? Less >>> > > points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only a few >>> > > needles in their kit/ collection. >>> > > Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and for the >>> > > sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . >>> > > >>> > > K >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < >>> > > ray <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> >>> <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> < >> > ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au <ray%2540rayfordacupuncture.com.au>> > >> > >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > Hi K >>>>> > >> > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where using >> > the >>>>> > >> > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection >> > personally I >>>>> > >> > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed on >> > myself so >>>>> > >> > would not adopt it for my clients. >>>>> > >> > Ray >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " <johnkokko >>>>> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> >>>> > >> <johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>> <johnkokko% >> > 40gmail.com>> >> > >>>>> > >> > wrote: >>>>> > >> > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Dr Yuk Ming, >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where the >>>>> > >>> guide-tube >>>>>>> > >>> > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a needle >>>>> > >> > through >>>>>>> > >>> > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi and >> > take the >>>>>>> > >>> > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert the >> > same >>>>> > >> > needle >>>>>>> > >>> > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle and >>>>> > >> > guide-tube >>>>>>> > >>> > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) free to >>>>> > >>> palpate, >>>>>>> > >>> > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide tube and >>>>> > >> > inserts >>>>>>> > >>> > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda Masakazu, >> > you >>>>>>> > >>> > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. >>>>>>> > >>> > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to control the >> > depth >>>>> > >> > of >>>>>>> > >>> > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with the >>>>> > >> > traditional >>>>>>> > >>> > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert the >> > needle >>>>>>> > >>> > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the flow of >> > the Qi >>>>>>> > >>> > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states that the >>>>> > >> > needle >>>>>>> > >>> > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think that was >>>>> > >> > written >>>>>>> > >>> > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen around the >> > needle >>>>> > >> > if >>>>>>> > >>> > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, there's no >> > problem >>>>> > >> > at >>>>>>> > >>> > > all while doing this. >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > K >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 >>>>>>> <sxm2649%40163.com> <sxm2649%40163.com> >>>>> > >>> <sxm2649%40163.com <sxm2649%2540163.com>> >>>>> <sxm2649%40163.com>> >> > >>>>> > >> > wrote: >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts about the >> > high >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion tubes >> > making >>>>> > >> > insertion >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would say >> > 'Doctor, >> > you >>>>> > >> > are >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my American >>>>>> > >>>> patients. >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist >> > by >>>>> > >> > saying >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of needles you >> > are >>>>> > >> > using? >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is associated >> > with >> > the >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I do not >>>>> > >> > particularly >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain treatment. >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be treated >> > with >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> needles in the first place. >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to >>>>>> > >>>> machine-made. >>>>> > >> > It >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same token, >> > doing >>>>> > >> > free >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran >> > acupuncturist. The >>>>> > >> > most >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will perfect >> > their >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> techniques of needle-insertion. >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing >>>>>>>>> insertion with >> > tube. >>>>> > >> > He >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy though. I >>>>>> > >>>> >> > prefer >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now >> > everyone can >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a >> > profession, the >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> insertion tube. >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> > >>> > > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >>>>> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 K, > Actually, I don't know exactly where the 20+ needle treatment came > from in > the classics... > The Japanese in the 20s were really concerned about going back to the > classics, > such as more superficial needling, less retention time and channel > theory > understanding, > but I don't know where so many points being used developed. > Bao ci treatment follows the pain, but this is only one technique > among 26 > listed in the Neijing: > 9 needles/ 12 channels / 5 zang. It is important to remember that Japanese Acupuncture / Meridian Therapy is BASED on the Classics, but develops in modern times based on repeatable modern empirical observations in clinic This development is new and is still taking place and could be due several things: The use of thinner needles, shorter retention time, and much more superficial insertion or even contact needling and delicate manipulation techniques all put together move Wei Qi more and Ying Qi less and as such putting less strain on Blood pr. point treated allowing more points to be used IF needed. Often points are treated unilaterally only... Also the use of abdominal and pulse diagnosis performed several times during treatment allows for monitoring the patients condition at all times lessening the risk of excessive stimulation thus concern about the number of points needled lessens in comparison to making sure that Qi dynamics are optimal. The are many practitoners of Japanese Acupuncture / Meridian Therapy that use less points and spend more time on the treated points. As such I, for instance, will use anywhere between 2 - 20 points during treatment spending anywhere from a few split seconds to a couple of minutes of needling a given point or even retaining needles for up to 15 minutes all based on the pulse and abdominal findings within a treatment duration of app. 25 minutes. In the end the main importance is to optimize Qi Dynamics this is what will help the patient heal. Hope this makes sense. :0) Thomas > K > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:50 PM, raymond ford > <ray > > wrote: > > > > > > > K > > Before disposable needles there was steralization using autoclave.I > am not > > sure about your point of less needles as my experience in China on > many > > many > > visits was quite the opposite ie the majority of Doctors I witnessed > > actually covered their patients with needles often anywhere from 20 > to 40 > > needles sometimes more.I think it was similar in the west back in > the day. > > Ray > > > > > > > > On 11/03/10 6:59 PM, " " <johnkokko<johnkokko% > 40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > I know that the CNT manual states that one should not use the same > needle > > on > > > multiple areas/points of the same person, because of a possible > > > autogenous-type infection from one part of the body to another. > But, > > > historically, many practitioners much more experienced than any of > us use > > > these methods, including some who helped make acupuncture legal in > the > > > states. > > > Before there were disposable needles, what did the doctors do? > Less > > > points, more needle stimulation technique, less retention and only > a few > > > needles in their kit/ collection. > > > Sure, we should be as careful as " holding the tiger's tail " and > for the > > > sake of ourselves and our patients, " do no harm " . > > > > > > K > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:27 PM, raymond ford < > > > ray <ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au> > < > > ray%40rayfordacupuncture.com.au <ray%2540rayfordacupuncture.com.au>> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Hi K > > >> > What do you think about stringent skin penetration issues where > using > > the > > >> > same needle over and over may be a risk for possible infection > > personally I > > >> > would not choose this type of insertion/re-insertion performed > on > > myself so > > >> > would not adopt it for my clients. > > >> > Ray > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 10/03/10 3:22 AM, " " > <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > > >> <johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>> > <johnkokko% > > 40gmail.com>> > > > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > >>> > > Dr Yuk Ming, > > >>> > > > > >>> > > the Japanese have refined the use of the guide-tube, where > the > > >>> guide-tube > > >>> > > can do more than just hold a needle in place while you tap a > needle > > >> > through > > >>> > > the skin. It can also help bring Qi to the point, direct Qi > and > > take the > > >>> > > place of the pressing hand. Many practitioners can reinsert > the > > same > > >> > needle > > >>> > > just as quickly as a free-handler, by using the same needle > and > > >> > guide-tube > > >>> > > and doing all of this with the left hand (pressing hand) > free to > > >>> palpate, > > >>> > > while the right hand (insertion hand) holds both the guide > tube and > > >> > inserts > > >>> > > the needle. If you see someone like Shudo Denmai or Ikeda > Masakazu, > > you > > >>> > > might have a different appreciation for the guide-tube. > > >>> > > http://www.redwingbooks.com/products/books/ArtAcuDVD.cfm > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Free-handling has the added advantage of being able to > control the > > depth > > >> > of > > >>> > > the insertion and so De Qi can be very quickly attained with > the > > >> > traditional > > >>> > > Chinese method. However, with the guide-tube, you can insert > the > > needle > > >>> > > more deftly in the direction with the flow or against the > flow of > > the Qi > > >>> > > current from the very beginning. In the Ling shu it states > that the > > >> > needle > > >>> > > should be inserted straight in, not left or right. I think > that was > > >> > written > > >>> > > because the needle will bend and the skin will stiffen > around the > > needle > > >> > if > > >>> > > you free-hand this way, but if you have a guide-tube, > there's no > > problem > > >> > at > > >>> > > all while doing this. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > K > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Yuk Ming > <sxm2649<sxm2649%40163.com> > > >>> <sxm2649%40163.com <sxm2649%2540163.com>> <sxm2649% > 40163.com>> > > > > >> > wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> Dear Mr Rosenberg, > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> Thank you for your reply. I have absolutely no doubts > about the > > high > > >>>> > >> quality of Sirin needles. I also agree that insertion > tubes > > making > > >> > insertion > > >>>> > >> painless. I have a few American patients and they would > say > > 'Doctor, > > you > > >> > are > > >>>> > >> amazing, you are amazing' very sweet talk. I like my > American > > >>>> patients. > > >>>> > >> However, I never heard a patient complementing an > acupuncturist > > by > > >> > saying > > >>>> > >> 'You are amazing, all my pain are gone! What brand of > needles you > > are > > >> > using? > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> It just never occurs to me that clinical efficacy is > associated > > with > > the > > >>>> > >> quality of needles. It does relate to the size though. I > do not > > >> > particularly > > >>>> > >> like fine needles. They are less effective for pain > treatment. > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> For ultra sensitive patients, may be they should not be > treated > > with > > >>>> > >> needles in the first place. > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> I think most Japanese prefer noodles or shusi man-made to > > >>>> machine-made. > > >> > It > > >>>> > >> feels better to chew the hand-made produce. By the same > token, > > doing > > >> > free > > >>>> > >> hand needling can distinguish a medicore or veteran > > acupuncturist. The > > >> > most > > >>>> > >> important of all, only those serious acupuncturists will > perfect > > their > > >>>> > >> techniques of needle-insertion. > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> I have seen a senior Japanese acupuncturist doing > insertion with > > tube. > > >> > He > > >>>> > >> was very quick and amazing. I cannot tell the efficacy > though. I > > >>>> > > prefer > > >>>> > >> insertion with depth and that is the only way I know. Now > > everyone can > > >>>> > >> insert needles. Is it a blessing or curse for acu as a > > profession, the > > >>>> > >> insertion tube. > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> Sung, Yuk-ming > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 I never use estim in my practice, but I am sure they are fine. I would suggest the laser needles with the metal handles. On Mar 5, 2010, at 10:00 AM, Michele wrote: > Dear Z'ev > Can you use estim with serin? > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 11:27 AM, <zrosenbe wrote: > > Angela, > My priority has to be the best needles, the best moxa, the best herbs I can find, because healing patients is the top priority. I cannot cut corners on supplies or knowledge sources. A satisfied patient is worth it all, because they will return if they need you and refer others as well. . . > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Angela Pfaffenberger, PH.D. wrote: > > I personally really prefer being needled with seirins, and I use them on the initial visit, because I do think that they cause less discomfort, however, the cost is a bit through the roof, and DBCs are the staple in my clinic. With seirins you have about a per treatment cost of $2 a treatment, that would be almost $10,000 a year in my clinic, think about how much equipment, education, advertising that could pay for; essentially you almost make choices about your priorities. I must honestly admit that I occasionally lose clients because they are uncomfortable with the needle sensation, but it's pretty rare. > > Regards, > Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > > angelapfa > > www.InnerhealthSalem.com > > Phone: 503 364 3022 > - > Anne Crowley > Traditional > Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:26 AM > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Mark: > > What do I like about Serins? Probably the best answer is " familiarity " . My acupuncturist used them, and still does. I like knowing when I look at a green needle, red needle, yellow needle, and metal shaft needle - I know exactly what it does. I use a lot of needles and move quickly when I am needling - so it all flows. > > I tried the DBC - once, because given a free packet. Now when using guide tube, you have to keep reinserting the needle. That was a stumbling block. > > Also when I free handed with it on my patient's knee he said, " Wow those needles are hurting more today for some reason. " Just ancedotal evidence. > > I guess I could get the smaller guage on the DBC. Reinserting for the guide tube might be tough. I don't always use it. Most of the time I am using free hand. > > I also saw some harrowing picture of the needles under a microscope and some are not as sharp. I know we have had this discussion before here about needles. So, I am willing to try some different guages and see how it works. I like the vacation idea. > > Also, yes, I hate the waste in packaging. I live in a more rural area - the word is they are not going to recycle that type of plastic. > > I don't see 100 patients in 2 days, either, but still don't like the waste. > > Now silicon reaction. I have some patients (and it is rare) get the bump (forget the name) near a capillary. What does a silicone reaction look like? > > I am not firing on all cylinders as I just returned from a 12 hr train trip last night (from upstate NY - yeah, Syracuse) to Maryland. Have to refocus for my 10 patients today. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " zedbowls " <zaranski > " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > > Wednesday, March 3, 2010 11:45:49 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Community Acupuncture > > hey Anne, > > What do you like about serins? They spend the most on advertizing, certainly that gets passed along to buyers. Do you ever see Px's with sensitivity to the silicone coating on their needles? > > Do you tube needle or free needle? Do you recycle the tubes? > > We inserted over 120,000 needles in 2009; with DBC spring tens thats still >12k insertion tubes that we recycled! The only thing that tube does for us is provide rigidity for the package. We pull that tubeand pocket it when we open the pack. DBCs are uncoated stainless, easily as smooth as the serins due to polishing. Nice and stiff for their gauge so your qi is easily tranfered into penetration rather than bending needles and hurting Pxs. SOOO much less packaging per 1000 needles. > > Mark Z > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > Wow, I could go on vacation with the difference. I am pretty hooked on serins. > Anne > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > <johnkokko > Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:30:34 > < Chinese Medicine > > Re: Re: Community Acupuncture > > Here's a correction on my needle $ comparison: > > Seirins = $10 / pack of 100 = 10 cents / each > DBC = $22.50 for pack of 1000 = 2.25 cents/ each > > 40 treatments / week = Seirins $40/ week $160/ month about $1760/ > year (4 weeks off for vacation) > = DBC $9/ week $36 / month > about $396 / year (4 weeks off for vacation) > > The difference is $1760 - 396 = *$1364 / year* if you see 40 patients/ > week. > > So cost of needles do make a difference. > > K > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:08 AM, <johnkokko wrote: > > Our market value depends on a few things... > 1. how much it cost (money, time and energy) to learn what we learned (in > school, outside of school, in clinical practice etc) > 2. how much it costs to maintain a practice in the location we have our > clinic situated (high end rent/ parking versus) > 3. how saturated the area we practice is with competitive forces > 4. the specific modality we practice (facial acupuncture vs pain management > vs fertility etc) > 5. the model we practice (community style vs 1 patient/ hour vs 2/ hour > etc.) > > A 10 cents/ needle Seirin vs 2.25 cents / needle DBC is not so important > from a money point of view (about 80 cents/ treatment difference), but I > guess that could add up.... 40 treatments/ week = $32 or $300/ year. > The worst part of the Seirins is all of the wasted paper and plastic (one > needle/ guide tube/ package). > > This is just a generalization, but I've found that women like to pay more > for treatments than men. > Students of all types usually can't afford more than $50/ treatment (once/ > week) > Middle aged patients generally will pay more than elderly patients (who > have a high insurance cost / month as well) > and finally... lawyers don't like to pay very much for their treatments, > even though they need the care more than most. > > > K > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:02 AM, Sean Doherty <seanwrote: > > On Mar 2, 2010, at 3:28 PM, wrote: > > first what cost? needles are pennies on the dollar. > > I have seen this argument a number of times and am always surprised by it. > Are we charging like plumbers and carpenters? Our fee being equal to the > cost of materials (if you are lucky)? Obviously, needles are only a very > small fraction of the cost of running a practice. Paper is cheap, too, and > that is all lawyers push around. > > Sean > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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