Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Jason - It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. The best source of information related to this can be found by contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in infants. Good luck, Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) President/CEO ABORM Westlake Complementary Medicine 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A Westlake Village, CA 91361 Phone: (805) 497-1335 Fax: (805) 497-1336 email: rtoo On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > been > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > how? > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en > > > Want a signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Ray, Thanks for the info, however I do not see any information on the website you provided, in regard to my question. Furthermore, my understanding is that most wet nurses come from woman who have recently had a child and just keep breastfeeding. In the situation I describe, the woman has had no child and never lactated. I am looking for natural remedies that allow this to happen. Do you know of some? Thanks, -Jason On Behalf Of Ray Rubio Friday, November 21, 2008 6:19 PM Re: lactation Jason - It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. The best source of information related to this can be found by contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in infants. Good luck, Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) President/CEO ABORM Westlake Complementary Medicine 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A Westlake Village, CA 91361 Phone: (805) 497-1335 Fax: (805) 497-1336 email: rtoo <rtoo%40earthlink.net> On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > been > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > how? > > Thanks, > > -Jason > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en > > > Want a signature like this? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 There is a book on the subject: Title : Breastfeeding the adopted baby Author : Peterson, Debra Stewart Breast milk production relies on two hormones prolactin and oxytocin. Since she has not recently been preganant, the body will not have produced oxytocin. However, prolactin is produced from the stimulation of the baby sucking. With proper stimulation, she should produce some milk, however, not enough to sustain the baby solely on it. Supplementation would be necessary, and they sell a gadget that can be hooked to the beast and nipple and simulate the real thing. Again, info is detailed in the book. From a TCM standpoint, once she started lactating (the book says this should happen after about two weeks of stimulation), focusing on tonifying qi and blood and maintaining free flow of liver qi may help increase the production. Melissa , " " wrote: > > Ray, > > > > Thanks for the info, however I do not see any information on the website you > provided, in regard to my question. Furthermore, my understanding is that > most wet nurses come from woman who have recently had a child and just keep > breastfeeding. In the situation I describe, the woman has had no child and > never lactated. I am looking for natural remedies that allow this to happen. > Do you know of some? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > On Behalf Of Ray Rubio > Friday, November 21, 2008 6:19 PM > > Re: lactation > > > > Jason - > > It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as > consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. > > The best source of information related to this can be found by > contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for > all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org > > One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that > she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is > an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing > lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women > having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast > milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in > infants. > > Good luck, > > Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) > President/CEO ABORM > > Westlake Complementary Medicine > 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A > Westlake Village, CA 91361 > Phone: (805) 497-1335 > Fax: (805) 497-1336 > email: rtoo <rtoo%40earthlink.net> > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > > > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > > been > > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > > how? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > & lang=en > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Jason, It is possible to promote lactation, but most sources will agree that the production of milk is most likely going to be limited, and easier in a woman who has lactated before. However, the benefits of breastfeeding go beyond the production of milk. A good first source for your patient, who may have already researched this well, is this link to a Mothering Magazine article written in 2001, but still pertinent with a list of suppliers of milk supplementers (devices) that hold milk in a container around the neck with a small tube that sits along the nipple. Here's the link: http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/adopted.html As far as natural remedies, I don't know of any that will cause milk production, only those that will aid the process described in the above article. And even those are applied the the principle of enhancing breastmilk rather diagnosing and treating a pattern. I don't know of chinese herbs that are clinically useful as lactagogues. The Western herb borage may be of some use. I would think that some breast qi movers might be useful in small amounts such as qing pi. My experience with both of these herbs is that they enhance rather than produce. Suckling is the most effective method for adoptive moms. Ear acupuncture might be more useful. I would try some stimulation on the prolactin point, endocrine, and posterior pituitary. I f you use ear tacks, your patient can stimluate these points (or her partner can) while she is nursing, or while she is pumping if she choses to try that route to preparation. BTW, in Europe, wet nurses were often women employed to nurse a newborn so that the mother would have a quick return to fertility in order to produce more children. Often a woman of lower class was hired. If she had a surviving infant (remember infant mortality rates were very high), she often hired out her child to another woman, of a class lower than she. The lowest class wet nurses were often women who lived in the country. For higher social classes it was considered unseemly for tandom nursing to occur. This history has largely been lost as formula feeding took over wet nursing in the beginning of the 20th century. Good luck with your patient. Valerie Hobbs , " " wrote: > > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not been > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, how? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py? Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > Boulder, Co > 80301 > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hi Jason, There are a number of herbs such as fenugreek, vitex, milk thistle, danggui, and others, but nipple stimulation is probably the most important thing she can do. Stimulation of the nipple for 5-10 minutes several times a day (more the better) will help to " get things started " so to speak. In fact, men can also do this and lactate, although not nearly as much as a woman. The stimulation can be done herself or can be done by someone else, say in a sexual encounter, but it should be very stimulating, not just gentle touch. I would suggest she do this for a few days to a week before she starts taking any herbs, the herbs will only help what is already happening, I don't they can actually start the milk flow. Good luck, Thomas , " " wrote: > > Ray, > > > > Thanks for the info, however I do not see any information on the website you > provided, in regard to my question. Furthermore, my understanding is that > most wet nurses come from woman who have recently had a child and just keep > breastfeeding. In the situation I describe, the woman has had no child and > never lactated. I am looking for natural remedies that allow this to happen. > Do you know of some? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > On Behalf Of Ray Rubio > Friday, November 21, 2008 6:19 PM > > Re: lactation > > > > Jason - > > It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as > consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. > > The best source of information related to this can be found by > contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for > all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org > > One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that > she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is > an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing > lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women > having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast > milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in > infants. > > Good luck, > > Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) > President/CEO ABORM > > Westlake Complementary Medicine > 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A > Westlake Village, CA 91361 > Phone: (805) 497-1335 > Fax: (805) 497-1336 > email: rtoo <rtoo%40earthlink.net> > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > > > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > > been > > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > > how? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > & lang=en > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks everyone for your insights on this lactation issue. -Jason On Behalf Of Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:54 PM Re: lactation Hi Jason, There are a number of herbs such as fenugreek, vitex, milk thistle, danggui, and others, but nipple stimulation is probably the most important thing she can do. Stimulation of the nipple for 5-10 minutes several times a day (more the better) will help to " get things started " so to speak. In fact, men can also do this and lactate, although not nearly as much as a woman. The stimulation can be done herself or can be done by someone else, say in a sexual encounter, but it should be very stimulating, not just gentle touch. I would suggest she do this for a few days to a week before she starts taking any herbs, the herbs will only help what is already happening, I don't they can actually start the milk flow. Good luck, Thomas <%40> , " " wrote: > > Ray, > > > > Thanks for the info, however I do not see any information on the website you > provided, in regard to my question. Furthermore, my understanding is that > most wet nurses come from woman who have recently had a child and just keep > breastfeeding. In the situation I describe, the woman has had no child and > never lactated. I am looking for natural remedies that allow this to happen. > Do you know of some? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > <%40> > [ <%40> ] On Behalf Of Ray Rubio > Friday, November 21, 2008 6:19 PM > <%40> > Re: lactation > > > > Jason - > > It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as > consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. > > The best source of information related to this can be found by > contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for > all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org > > One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that > she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is > an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing > lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women > having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast > milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in > infants. > > Good luck, > > Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) > President/CEO ABORM > > Westlake Complementary Medicine > 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A > Westlake Village, CA 91361 > Phone: (805) 497-1335 > Fax: (805) 497-1336 > email: rtoo <rtoo%40earthlink.net> > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > > > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > > been > > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > > how? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > Boulder, Co > > 80301 > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> & lang=en> > & lang=en > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Jason, I found this formula in a modern Fx book that says it came from a Japanese formula book (Although it also mentions another source). It goes on to say that the formula is best for those mothers whose milk glands are underdeveloped. Perhaps it will work. It also mentions that old texts have said this formula can even cause men's breasts to become distended. Pu Gong Ying - 6 g (here it says that the root is to be used) Xiang Fu Zi - 3g Dang Gui - 6g Mu Dan Pi - 3g Shan Yao - 4g The author of this book was Taiwanese but very influenced by the Japanese and it might even be said he practiced Kampo, although I am not really sure. The point is that all the herb amounts in his formulas book have been converted into very low Japanese style dosages, so it is unclear as to whether or not the dosages given were the original dosages. Nevertheless I do believe that in general he has kept the ratios true to the original formulas. Let me know if you use it and if so how it works out. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Jason- I discussed you question with a OB/Gyn who is also a L.Ac. He was very skeptical that you could induce lactation in your patient. That being, said, I would be very interested in hearing if you have success with this. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. C.H. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 23, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Frances L. Gander wrote: > Jason, > > As far as I know, there would have to be some way of simulating > pregnancy and its end for lactation to occur. No doubt, there are > unnatural ways of doing this. If certain qigong practices can > transform > the menstrual process, I wonder about absence of lactation? I look > forward to further discussion of your question. > > Frances Gander, L.Ac. > Athens, OH > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 hi - you may want to find a lactation counselor or lactation educator in your area. that would be a good beginning resource. if you are in boulder, you can call the apothecary tinctura in denver, there is a lactation educator/counselor there, her name is lynn flanagan. she may be a good resource to begin with. hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Hi Jason, et al, Haven't been participating much lately, but this is an area in which I have a fair amount of knowledge and experience: As far as manual stimulation goes, get a good double electric breast pump (the hospital grade ones you have to rent are best, although the Medela Pump in Style is okay). Domperidone is a controversial drug, but don't rule it out: It's been used safely in Europe, Canada and elsewhere for years; and the American Academy of Pediatrics has approved its use as a human galactagogue. See http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/newman.shtml for some of Dr. Jack Newman's articles, including one on domperidone. Any patient or practioner should weigh the risks and benefits of domperidone versus formula, while remembering that formula has known adverse effects on babies. .... I could go on and on. If anyone wants to here more about Domperidone, please email me off the list. Best wishes, Sarah Rivkin , " " wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > There are a number of herbs such as fenugreek, vitex, milk thistle, > danggui, and others, but nipple stimulation is probably the most > important thing she can do. Stimulation of the nipple for 5-10 minutes > several times a day (more the better) will help to " get things > started " so to speak. In fact, men can also do this and lactate, > although not nearly as much as a woman. The stimulation can be done > herself or can be done by someone else, say in a sexual encounter, but > it should be very stimulating, not just gentle touch. I would suggest > she do this for a few days to a week before she starts taking any > herbs, the herbs will only help what is already happening, I don't > they can actually start the milk flow. > > Good luck, > Thomas > > , " " > <@> wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > Thanks for the info, however I do not see any information on the > website you > > provided, in regard to my question. Furthermore, my understanding is > that > > most wet nurses come from woman who have recently had a child and > just keep > > breastfeeding. In the situation I describe, the woman has had no > child and > > never lactated. I am looking for natural remedies that allow this to > happen. > > Do you know of some? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Ray Rubio > > Friday, November 21, 2008 6:19 PM > > > > Re: lactation > > > > > > > > Jason - > > > > It is absolutely possible, hence the long history of wet-nurses as > > consorts to the royal courts in Europe, China, etc. > > > > The best source of information related to this can be found by > > contacting the local La Leche League. They are the clearing house for > > all things related to lactating: http://www.llli.org > > > > One thing to caution whomever you are inquiring for: Make sure that > > she does not take Domperidone to stimulate lactation. Domperidone is > > an anti-emetic that was found to have a side effect of causing > > lactation. So some doctors have taken to recommending it for women > > having problems lactating. However, it is expressed in the breast > > milk, and there have been zero long-term studies as to its' safety in > > infants. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Ray Rubio, D.A.O.M. (FABORM) > > President/CEO ABORM > > > > Westlake Complementary Medicine > > 910 Hampshire Road, Suite A > > Westlake Village, CA 91361 > > Phone: (805) 497-1335 > > Fax: (805) 497-1336 > > email: rtoo@ <rtoo%40earthlink.net> > > > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 5:03 PM, wrote: > > > > > Is it possible to naturally promote lactation in a woman who has not > > > been > > > pregnant (e.g. adopting a baby and wanting to breast feed)? If so, > > > how? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap > > > <http://maps./py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > & addr=2600+30th+Street%2C+Suite+20 > > > 0 & csz=Boulder%2C+Co & country=us> 2600 30th Street, Suite 200 > > > Boulder, Co > > > 80301 > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_simple_sig & lang=en> > > & lang=en > > > > > > > Want a signature like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Hello Laura, Of course each case needs to be differentiated but I've had great luck with these points: St-16, 18 SP-20, 21 Also work on Chong mo. .Moxa CV-8 Also VIII-14, Lu-1 if there is an exit/entry block between liver and lung (Left middle position large and right distal flat or feeble). QI stagnation in diaphragm. Also: xiong gui tiao xue yin (never failed me). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17436360 Regards, Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. Thanks! Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Early on I treated a young mother with herbs, standard formula with tong cao as a main herb if I remember correctly. Mother started lactating after the 1st cup of the stuff. I think your first experience was just bad luck/ hard case. Doug , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with > acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. > > Thanks! > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I've added a few herbs to many formulas that stimulate lactation. They work very well. I use tong cao, wang bu liu xin, and a dash of jie geng. > --- In <%40>, > " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > > > Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with > > acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was > not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic > expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something > we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't > have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Hi Laura, I have experience helping postpartum women with milk production. Could you let us know a bit more about the woman and the situation? Thanks Sharon Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Hi Laura, I've also had a lot of success with this issue. Herbally, I always treat the patttern: almost always qi/blood deficiency (ba zhen tang), or qi blood and yang (shi quan da bu tang). If there is a lot of stress, can use xiao yao san as a base, or gui pi tang. Then I modify with herbs to promote lactation (tong cao, wang bu liu xing) etc. Acupuncture: Chong/Ren points with SI 1, Ren 17, ST 18 and whatever else fits. Ginger/salt/moxa on Ren 8 is great for Yang xu. Mom must also try to keep stress levels low, do very little other than care for the infant in the first 6 weeks, drink at least 2-3 liters of water per day, and eat lots of spleen-nourishing foods. Hope that helps. Laura Erlich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Thanks for the ideas! I am always fascinated by working with entry/exit blocks but have not integrated it into my practice much. Maybe this will be my inspiration to start. What is VIII 14? , " Lonny " <revolution wrote: > > Hello Laura, Of course each case needs to be differentiated but I've had great luck with these points: > > St-16, 18 > SP-20, 21 > > Also work on Chong mo. .Moxa CV-8 > > Also VIII-14, Lu-1 if there is an exit/entry block between liver and lung (Left middle position large and right distal flat or feeble). QI stagnation in diaphragm. > > Also: xiong gui tiao xue yin (never failed me). > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17436360 > > Regards, Lonny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Laura, there is an article (#5) on how to use Exit/entry points at: http://www.spiritpathpress.com/chinese-medicine-books/articles.php I'm sorry, VIII is Worsley shorthand for Liver as we begin the circulation of qi at Heart rather than lung. The numbers were to avoid mentioning organs in clinic in front of patients. Better to say " VIII " needs attention than " liver " . Regards, Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 I haven't seen her yet. She said that she's having trouble with the let down reflex. Her daughter is 9 months old and is borderline failure to thrive. Also, her daugher is easily distracted and doesn't want to feed for long. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. > > Thanks! > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 The patient's diet must also be considered.  A smile lightens the heart Warmly, Dianne ________________________________ laura_erlich <lauraerlich Wed, March 10, 2010 4:59:59 PM Re: Lactation  Hi Laura, I've also had a lot of success with this issue. Herbally, I always treat the patttern: almost always qi/blood deficiency (ba zhen tang), or qi blood and yang (shi quan da bu tang). If there is a lot of stress, can use xiao yao san as a base, or gui pi tang. Then I modify with herbs to promote lactation (tong cao, wang bu liu xing) etc. Acupuncture: Chong/Ren points with SI 1, Ren 17, ST 18 and whatever else fits. Ginger/salt/ moxa on Ren 8 is great for Yang xu. Mom must also try to keep stress levels low, do very little other than care for the infant in the first 6 weeks, drink at least 2-3 liters of water per day, and eat lots of spleen-nourishing foods. Hope that helps. Laura Erlich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 I like that idea of using numbers instead of organs, when teaching students during the clinic session... often times, the patient will get nervous when we talk about their liver being stagnant or their kidneys being deficient or their spleen's.... We forget that they're thinking about high-school biology or whatever they've learned about from a bio-medical perspective. So, is this the sequence? : HT = 1, SI = 2, UB = 3, KD = 4, PC = 5, SJ = 6, GB = 7, LV = 8, Lung = 9, LI = 10, ST = 11, SP = 12 We can also use the Pin yin pronunciation... Xin, Xiao chang, Pang guang, Shen, Xin bao, San jiao Dan, Gan, Fei, Da chang, Wei, Pi Good idea, K On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Lonny <revolution wrote: > > > Laura, there is an article (#5) on how to use Exit/entry points at: > > http://www.spiritpathpress.com/chinese-medicine-books/articles.php > > I'm sorry, VIII is Worsley shorthand for Liver as we begin the circulation > of qi at Heart rather than lung. The numbers were to avoid mentioning organs > in clinic in front of patients. Better to say " VIII " needs attention than > " liver " . Regards, Lonny > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Hello, Sometimes lactation issues are a qi problem with the mother- such as blood vacuity and or liver qi stagnation. I would differentiate...But, what TCM texts do not cover are structural physical problems with the mothers nipples or the nursling's palate/latch. TCM does discuss blocked ducts/mastitis but some of the those herbal formula contain herbs which are dangerous to the nursling. I have a ton a questions for you/your patient in order for me to help you more. How old is the nursling? What is mother's labor story? (prolonged, vaginal, emergency or planned c-section, any trauma to mother or baby during birth etc.) Has the mother's milk come in yet, or is it still colostrum? If there is colostrum I hope that is she hand expressing and spoon feeding to baby. This is a labor intensive technique and must be done all day long, but it is effective. How is the nursling being fed? Is the mother attempting to nurse and pumping? Is the infant being supplemented with formula? If the mother is nursing and/or pumping, how many times per day? What is the mother eating/ drinking? Has mother consulted with a lactation consultant (ILBLC)? Was it a phone consult or in person? What were the suggstions and results of the visit? Have the mother's breasts been examined for plugged ducts, or malformed nipples? Has the baby been examined for cleft palate, occulsions, malocclusions, ankyloglossia(tongue tie), has the latch been observed or listened to by a breast feeding professional, or other physical problems with the infants mouth? http://www.llli.org/mp3/LLL_podcast_2007_LLLIConf_Brian_Palmer_Feeding_At_Breast\ _Sleep_Apnea.mp3 I suggest you ask the mother following questions to figure out how much or how little milk the nursling is getting. Is the infant: Urinating frequently (at least 6 to 8 times a day) Having sufficient bowel movements (at least 4 to 6 a day) Gaining weight (By the age of 2 weeks, the baby should have regained its birth weight; an infant can drop up to 10% upon discharge from the hospital.) Is mother bringing baby to the visit? If so, then before hand, go to You Tube and watch the videos posted by Breastfeeding babies with Dr. Jack Newman This will teach you how to observe and listen to the latch/sound of suckling. La Leche League International website has a huge database of information, Q & A about breast feeding problems. you can search for info here http://www.llli.org/resources/assistance.html?m=0,0 The acupuncture points suggested by others can be used at home with acupressure several times per day, which can perform on herself, and her partner can help reach points she can't. As far as choosing herbs, once you have ruled out a structural physical basis from mother or nursling, and this is truly a situation where there is a supply problem, choose herbs based on pattern Dx. I HIGHLY recommend you read this article by Subhuti Dhamanada called On taking Herbs While Breastfeeding. http://www.itmonline.org/arts/breast.htm This website www.lowmilksupply.com is also helpful. There is a book called " Mother Food: Food and Herbs that Promote Milk Production and a Mother's Health " that you and she can read. I have written an article for Times about nursing mothers and weight loss, which contains a brief discussion about using food as medicine to protect supply. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/section/339/1/postpartum_weight_loss_for_nur\ sing_mothers_using_tcm_and_modern_techniques Another herb that I find safe, and effective with literally overnight success, which is not a TCM herb, is the Auyervedic herb Shatavari. I recommend this brand due to its superior quality and the company's quality control/safety. http://www.ayurceutics.com/product.cfm?ProductID=6 & CFID=740569 & CFTOKEN=80681223 & \ SID= Also, I cannot stress enough that TCM is not always the end all be all for lactation problems and that resolving this problem as soon as possible is of utmost priority if mother wants to breastfeed. Please involve other professionals such as ILBLC, and referring the patient to la Leche Legue meetings post-haste as needed. If you have further questions for me, please also e-mail me off list as I do not always read the daily journals, however, I will try to follow this thread. Be Well, Juliette Aiyana, L.Ac., Herbalist, Author Aiyana Acupuncture & Chinese Herbs 41 Union Square W. Suite 519 NY, NY 10003 212-894-0767 www.amazinghealing.com www.optionsforweightloss.com The Book " & Healthy Weight Management An Evidence-based Integrated Approach " , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with > acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. > > Thanks! > > Laura > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 So, is this the sequence? : HT = 1, SI = 2, UB = 3, KD = 4, PC = 5, SJ = 6, GB = 7, LV = 8, Lung = 9, LI = 10, ST = 11, SP = 12 Lonny: Yes, although one could start counting at Lung just to keep things consistent with TCM theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Your patient can make a soup with pig's feet. Many grocery stores carry these but don't keep them out in front. Ask the butcher. We keep them frozen in our pharmacies freezer to give to women. This really works. The breasts engorge soon after eating a bowl of soup. You do want to differentiate how much stasis there is and how much deficiency (stuck milk or scanty milk) This soup is good for the quantity and quality of milk. Tong Cao and Wang Bu Liu Xing are good for the opening through of the ducts. My teacher has a formula that works really well. You can modify it according to your foundational diagnosis. In terms of encouraging her, this should work if she follows through. Do let us know! Sharon Tong Ru San Open Through the Breast Powder Translated from Qiu Xiao Mei Herbal Constituents Dang Gui Radix Angeliaz Sinensis 12 gm Lu Jiao Shuang Cornu Cervii DegeIatinatium 9 gm (decoct first) Ya Shen Qu Pian Massa Medicata Fermentata 12 gm (decoct first) Wang Bu Liu Xing Semen Vacariae 9 gm Tian Hua Fen Radix Trichosantus 9 gm Si Tong Cao Medulla Tetrapanacis Papyriferi 1.5 gm Method of Use: Decoct in Water. Function: Nourish Blood, generate moisture, open through the Luo and move the breast Indications: Insufficient breast milk or breast milk not flowing smoothly. Formula Explanation: Insufficient breast milk or breast milk not flowing smoothly are both related to depletion of Qi and Blood resulting in the breast Luo becoming congested. When there is vacuity it is appropriate to nourish and then there is congestion it is appropriate to course and open through. For this reason we use Dang Gui to nourish the Blood. Lu Jiao Shuang has the quality of flesh and Blood. It warms and supplements the Du Mai, strengthens the Jing " and boosts the Blood. The Ya Shan Qu enters the Jue Yin and Yang Ming channels, its Qi is stinky and scurrying and it is able to open through the channels and Luo and, lead the herbs to the site of the problem. Tian Hua Fen generates moisture, disperses swelling and dissipates knotting. Wang Bu Liu Xing and Tong Cao disinhibit the Qi, open through the Luo and encourage the breast to let down. All of these herbs work in coordination and altogether achieve the goal of nourishing the Blood, generating moisture, opening through the Luo and moving the breast. Sharon Weizenbaum 86 Henry Street Amherst, MA 01002 www.whitepinehealingarts.com Topics in Blog sweiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 You have been getting good advice here; I'll add this piece: Trouble with the let down reflex is related to the release of oxytocin from the nipple stimulation of the baby suckling. Since the " ST rules the breast and Liver rules the nipple " I would look at issues about liver qi. Auriculotherapy in the posterior pituitary point (to stimulate release of oxytocin) may help. I have treated women with this problem, and the letdown reflex does improve --I always add others points to treat their pattern, and usually local and distal points for lactation that have been described in other posts. However, the big question is: at 9 months, why would a child be borderline failure to thrive? I am hoping that your patient is not still trying to exclusively breastfeed (and I am a very ardent supporter of breastfeeding), but I think some reasonable introduction of foods is warranted, if it isn't already the case. Good luck. Valerie Hobbs, L Ac. Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag wrote: > > I haven't seen her yet. She said that she's having trouble with the let down reflex. Her daughter is 9 months old and is borderline failure to thrive. Also, her daugher is easily distracted and doesn't want to feed for long. > > > Chinese Medicine , " heylaurag " <heylaurag@> wrote: > > > > Anyone have experience treating women who are not able to lactate with acupuncture and/or herbs? I've only treated one other patient and I was not able to help. I have a new one and I'd like to give her a realistic expectation of how likely I am to help. What do you think? Is this something we are good at? And if so, any advice? I haven't seen her yet, so I don't have diagnostic info to share. But any general ideas would be great. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Laura > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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