First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

March 13, 2010

Samra is doing this right now. The residents are getting $30 G/ year

working on pain patients in a predominately Korean community. I spoke with

the Samra supervisors last month. Also, Yehuda has talked about this on the

group.

It would be profitable for people to hire acupuncturists, who are willing to

work hard for an affordable salary and create small acupuncture hospitals.

Get some investors and spread the idea around the country. After a while,

the schools will figure it out too.

K

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kathleen Mathews

<kthmathews2003wrote:

>

> John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

> hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a salary...

> km

>

> --- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

>

> Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

> a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

> 4 years of med school

> 3 years residency

> = at least 11 years of school after high school

>

> For most acupuncture schools:

> 2-4 years of college

> 3-4 years of acupuncture school

> = 5 - 8 years after high school

>

> The difference is not having a residency.

> I think this is what the FPD should be...

> get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of studies

> and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty clinics

> for

> the added year in school.

> Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then

> come

> out with a DAOM.

> What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the American

> acupuncture education.

>

> K

>

> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 <acuman1%40aol.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are

> looking

> > at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> > Dave Molony

> >

> > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> >

> > alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net><alonmarcus%

> 40wans.net>>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> >

> > 400 29th St. Suite 419

> > Oakland Ca 94609

> >

> > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

> >

March 13, 2010

The other thing to think about is our competition... not other

acupuncturists,

but MDs practicing acupuncture, DPTs practicing acupuncture, DCs in some

states too.

These practitioners are all doctors, doing what we do... not the same, but

still putting needles through people's skin,

getting a nerve response, trying to elicit a bio-electrical/ chemical change

in the brain/body.

Who would you hire at a hospital if you thought acupuncture was border-line

woo-woo?

An MD who tells you that they do " medical acupuncture " evidence-based

acupuncture

or a guy who graduated from a 3 year acupuncture college with a Masters

degree ?

(considered basically a trade school without regional accreditation)

Would you hire a DPT who already works inside of your hospital system and

you already trust and payroll

or a guy who graduated from a 3 year regionally un-accredited acupuncture

college with a Masters degree?

This is what we're really up against.

oh.. and what about getting broader and deeper insurance coverage/

re-imbursal?

Which one is going to help that go further?

A whole bunch of Masters degree practitioners or a whole bunch of Doctors

out there?

This is not about the past, but the future of the medicine.

K

March 13, 2010

My understanding is ACOM puts something on their website and waits for replies,

this is how " consensus " or feedback is obtained, if there is more to this maybe

someone can add to it.

This link presents some of their process.

http://www.acaom.org/PdfVersion/ACAOM%20First%20Professional%20Doctoral%20Standa\

rds%2010.pdf

I would agree if our current Masters does contain or is close to the FPD

proposed requirements it should be used and a few hours added and the DAOM

eliminated.

Unless I am missing something, our industry is very confused, we just got a DAOM

program going and now they want a FPD program without addressing the DAOM issue,

does anybody offer clarity on this issue?

Chinese Medicine , acudoc11 wrote:

>

> Dave

>

> This is where we have a huge disagreement.

>

> Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

> orgs.

>

> Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

> Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> acuman1 writes:

>

> Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

> overdue.It is long overdue

>

March 13, 2010

John:

Do you know where Samra goes the funding for this?

David

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Samra is doing this right now. The residents are getting $30 G/ year

> working on pain patients in a predominately Korean community. I spoke with

> the Samra supervisors last month. Also, Yehuda has talked about this on the

> group.

> It would be profitable for people to hire acupuncturists, who are willing to

> work hard for an affordable salary and create small acupuncture hospitals.

> Get some investors and spread the idea around the country. After a while,

> the schools will figure it out too.

>

> K

>

> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kathleen Mathews

> <kthmathews2003wrote:

>

> >

> > John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

> > hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a salary...

> > km

> >

> > --- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

> >

> > Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

> > a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

> > 4 years of med school

> > 3 years residency

> > = at least 11 years of school after high school

> >

> > For most acupuncture schools:

> > 2-4 years of college

> > 3-4 years of acupuncture school

> > = 5 - 8 years after high school

> >

> > The difference is not having a residency.

> > I think this is what the FPD should be...

> > get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of studies

> > and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty clinics

> > for

> > the added year in school.

> > Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then

> > come

> > out with a DAOM.

> > What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the American

> > acupuncture education.

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 <acuman1%40aol.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are

> > looking

> > > at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> > > Dave Molony

> > >

> > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > >

> > > alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net><alonmarcus%

> > 40wans.net>>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > >

> > > 400 29th St. Suite 419

> > > Oakland Ca 94609

> > >

> > > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

> >

> > >

March 13, 2010

We cannot all work there---any other hospitals? And those wages are

not great for all the work and time.

Sent from my iPod

On Mar 13, 2010, at 9:19 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

> Samra is doing this right now. The residents are getting $30 G/ year

> working on pain patients in a predominately Korean community. I

> spoke with

> the Samra supervisors last month. Also, Yehuda has talked about

> this on the

> group.

> It would be profitable for people to hire acupuncturists, who are

> willing to

> work hard for an affordable salary and create small acupuncture

> hospitals.

> Get some investors and spread the idea around the country. After a

> while,

> the schools will figure it out too.

>

> K

>

> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kathleen Mathews

> <kthmathews2003wrote:

>

>>

>> John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

>> hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a

>> salary...

>> km

>>

>> --- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko<johnkokko

>> %40gmail.com>>

>> wrote:

>>

>> <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>>

>> To:

>> Chinese Medicine@

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>> Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

>>

>> Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

>> a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

>> 4 years of med school

>> 3 years residency

>> = at least 11 years of school after high school

>>

>> For most acupuncture schools:

>> 2-4 years of college

>> 3-4 years of acupuncture school

>> = 5 - 8 years after high school

>>

>> The difference is not having a residency.

>> I think this is what the FPD should be...

>> get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of

>> studies

>> and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty

>> clinics

>> for

>> the added year in school.

>> Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and

>> then

>> come

>> out with a DAOM.

>> What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the

>> American

>> acupuncture education.

>>

>> K

>>

>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1

>> <acuman1%40aol.com>>

>> wrote:

>>

>>>

>>> I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are

>> looking

>>> at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

>>> Dave Molony

>>>

>>> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>>>

>>> alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus

>>> %40wans.net><alonmarcus%

>> 40wans.net>>

>>> To:

>>> Chinese Medicine@

>>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>> <Chinese Medicine%40>

>>> Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

>>> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>>>

>>> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>>>

>>> 400 29th St. Suite 419

>>> Oakland Ca 94609

>>>

>>> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>>

>>>

March 15, 2010

David,

When I asked about how much the patient's pay... it was full-price.

They see a lot of patients, mainly Korean people and most of the residents

are Korean too.

So, it seems as though they get funding from the patients in a community

setting.

Koreans love acupuncture, traditionally get it and will pay out of pocket

for it.

So, that could be part of the success of this program...

K

On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 10:32 AM, singlewhip2001

<singlewhip2001wrote:

>

> John:

>

> Do you know where Samra goes the funding for this?

>

> David

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Samra is doing this right now. The residents are getting $30 G/ year

> > working on pain patients in a predominately Korean community. I spoke

> with

> > the Samra supervisors last month. Also, Yehuda has talked about this on

> the

> > group.

> > It would be profitable for people to hire acupuncturists, who are willing

> to

> > work hard for an affordable salary and create small acupuncture

> hospitals.

> > Get some investors and spread the idea around the country. After a while,

> > the schools will figure it out too.

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kathleen Mathews

> > <kthmathews2003wrote:

>

> >

> > >

> > > John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

> > > hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a salary...

> > > km

> > >

> > > --- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > > wrote:

> > >

> > > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

>

> > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

> > >

> > > Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

> > > a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

> > > 4 years of med school

> > > 3 years residency

> > > = at least 11 years of school after high school

> > >

> > > For most acupuncture schools:

> > > 2-4 years of college

> > > 3-4 years of acupuncture school

> > > = 5 - 8 years after high school

> > >

> > > The difference is not having a residency.

> > > I think this is what the FPD should be...

> > > get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of

> studies

> > > and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty

> clinics

> > > for

> > > the added year in school.

> > > Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then

> > > come

> > > out with a DAOM.

> > > What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the

> American

> > > acupuncture education.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 <acuman1%40aol.com>>

>

> > > wrote:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are

> > > looking

> > > > at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> > > > Dave Molony

> > > >

> > > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > > >

> > > > alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net

> ><alonmarcus%

> > > 40wans.net>>

> > > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > > Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > > >

> > > > 400 29th St. Suite 419

> > > > Oakland Ca 94609

> > > >

> > > > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

> > >

> > > >

March 15, 2010

My understanding on the status of the DAOM is that it will still be I.

Existence to seve those with only a MSOM. It will be phased out

slowly, or transitioned into a PhD to provide training in research, as

the FPD will not have much of that as a component.

-Steve

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:14 AM, " singlewhip2001 "

<singlewhip2001 wrote:

> My understanding is ACOM puts something on their website and waits

> for replies, this is how " consensus " or feedback is obtained, if

> there is more to this maybe someone can add to it.

>

> This link presents some of their process.

>

http://www.acaom.org/PdfVersion/ACAOM%20First%20Professional%20Doctoral%20Standa\

rds%2010.pdf

>

> I would agree if our current Masters does contain or is close to the

> FPD proposed requirements it should be used and a few hours added

> and the DAOM eliminated.

>

> Unless I am missing something, our industry is very confused, we

> just got a DAOM program going and now they want a FPD program

> without addressing the DAOM issue, does anybody offer clarity on

> this issue?

>

> Chinese Medicine , acudoc11

> wrote:

> >

> > Dave

> >

> > This is where we have a huge disagreement.

> >

> > Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed

> by these

> > orgs.

> >

> > Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

> > Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes

> needed).

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > acuman1 writes:

> >

> > Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

> > overdue.It is long overdue

> >

March 15, 2010

A Master's degree is not a doctorate no matter how much we wish it was. For

some professions the Bachelor's degree is the terminal degree, but it is not the

same as a Master's, much less a doctorate.

I believe with the addition and subtraction of a few core courses, the Master's

will morph into a new FPD. I hope so anyway. As the first class of the DAOM at

PCOM, my cohort actually went three full time years every Friday thru Sunday.

Our class didn't come just one weekend out of the month. I don't wish this on

anyone, but if one has a burning desire for more education you do what you must.

I personally have no regrets.

As you can probably guess, I am pro FPD.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:58:52 -0500

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Dave

This is where we have a huge disagreement.

Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

orgs.

Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

Richard

In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

acuman1 writes:

Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

overdue.It is long overdue

March 15, 2010

When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine, is it?

What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our acupuncture

is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our herbal medicine

is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here; Zev Rosenburg, Bob

Damone, etc.

Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get. I

want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for average.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Don,

>

> You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your study

was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied upon high

school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

also.

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

> > naturaldoc1

>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

>

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts during

the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

>

> >

>

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Chinese Medicine

>

> > singlewhip2001

>

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

>

> > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Hi Don:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > This is an excellent point.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets mobilize

and see what we can do?

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to

our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think

that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually

have more education than the general MD from other countries. However, their

education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time,

that is supposedly of importance.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Just a thought.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

> >

>

> > > > CC: habeas_1

>

> >

>

> > > > naturaldoc1

>

> >

>

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

>

> >

>

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Richard,

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that I

recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Chinese Medicine

>

> >

>

> > > > CC: habeas_1

>

> >

>

> > > > acudoc11

>

> >

>

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

>

> >

>

> > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

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> >

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> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Michael

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms of

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > college credits or clock hours.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

the

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > MS = 32

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > PhD = 32

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a PhD.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > these FACTS.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > still within lurking distance.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Richard

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there will

be

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference is

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

>

> >

>

> > > >

March 15, 2010

If you took out the residencies, they would be four years. Residencies are a

type of OJT and they are paid salaries to do. We do not have residencies in OM,

although I think it would be a good idea to have one (only if we got paid too.)

BTW I went to school for 11 years also. I have a B.S. an MSTOM, and MPH, and a

DAOM. I spent a lot of time in school and I believe it was worth it.

Sincerely,

Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr., DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

acuman1

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:17:43 -0500

Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are looking at

DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

Dave Molony

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

alon marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

alonmarcus

March 15, 2010

Hi Donald:

Can you explain this every Friday-Sunday classes for 3-years, was this just

class time or included your clinic hours. If it was from 9am-5pm or so

friday-sunday and was just class time then it far exceeded the required hours?

thanks,

david

> I believe with the addition and subtraction of a few core courses, the

Master's will morph into a new FPD. I hope so anyway. As the first class of

the DAOM at PCOM, my cohort actually went three full time years every Friday

thru Sunday. Our class didn't come just one weekend out of the month. I don't

wish this on anyone, but if one has a burning desire for more education you do

what you must. I personally have no regrets.

>

> As you can probably guess, I am pro FPD.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acudoc11

> Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:58:52 -0500

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Dave

>

> This is where we have a huge disagreement.

>

> Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

> orgs.

>

> Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

> Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> acuman1 writes:

>

> Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

> overdue.It is long overdue

>

March 15, 2010

This was not from 9 A.M. to 5 P.M, it was from 8 AM to 7 PM and sometimes later.

Yes, it did include clinical hours also. But we had a lot of class time. We

had a lot of class time before and after clinicals also. This time was spent

learning to read CTs, MRIs, xrays, lab reports, etc. It was also spent in

" aggregate OM diagnostics. "

I cannot begin to tell you how much I enjoyed this learning experience. It was

brutal work at times, but it was so very rewarding. I am a better practiotioner

for it and if you haven't actually experienced it you can have no idea what it

was about. Go if you can, it was worth every penny spent and every hour spent.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Medicine

singlewhip2001

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:00:43 +0000

Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Hi Donald:

Can you explain this every Friday-Sunday classes for 3-years, was this just

class time or included your clinic hours. If it was from 9am-5pm or so

friday-sunday and was just class time then it far exceeded the required hours?

thanks,

david

> I believe with the addition and subtraction of a few core courses, the

Master's will morph into a new FPD. I hope so anyway. As the first class of the

DAOM at PCOM, my cohort actually went three full time years every Friday thru

Sunday. Our class didn't come just one weekend out of the month. I don't wish

this on anyone, but if one has a burning desire for more education you do what

you must. I personally have no regrets.

>

> As you can probably guess, I am pro FPD.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acudoc11

> Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:58:52 -0500

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Dave

>

> This is where we have a huge disagreement.

>

> Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

> orgs.

>

> Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

> Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> acuman1 writes:

>

> Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

> overdue.It is long overdue

>

March 15, 2010

Don,

You were ahead of the educational game. Two years of high school is counted in

the Chinese Bachelor programs making for six years. What I am saying is that

our programs in the US would not do well if we went to that paradigm. They do

well currently in many areas but clinic, classics and herbs are lacking.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:05 -0500

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine, is

it? What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our

acupuncture is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our

herbal medicine is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here;

Zev Rosenburg, Bob Damone, etc.

>

> Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get. I

want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for average.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your

study was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied

upon high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

also.

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> >

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > > singlewhip2001

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> >

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Hi Don:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to

our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think

that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually

have more education than the general MD from other countries. However, their

education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time,

that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that

I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > acudoc11

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms

of

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

the

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > MS = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

PhD.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

will be

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

March 15, 2010

Don,

The pre-med programs are focused on western medicine, which is important for

their future understanding. Some have argued that this may not be directly

relevent to OM. I think this knowledge is helpful and glad to see more of it in

the DAOM programs.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:05 -0500

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine, is

it? What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our

acupuncture is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our

herbal medicine is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here;

Zev Rosenburg, Bob Damone, etc.

>

> Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get. I

want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for average.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your

study was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied

upon high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

also.

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> >

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > > singlewhip2001

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> >

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Hi Don:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to

our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think

that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually

have more education than the general MD from other countries. However, their

education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time,

that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that

I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > acudoc11

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms

of

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

the

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > MS = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

PhD.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

will be

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

March 15, 2010

I don't know. In our Master's program we had, of course, Shang Hun Lun, Wen

Bing, Pi Wen, and Nei Jing. In the DAOM we delved quite a bit deeper and also

studied Nan Jing and other lesser classics. Also, PCOM is known as a BIG herb

school. The majority of our education in the Master's program was herbology and

the applications of herbal medicine was a big deal in the DAOM program.

Personally, I was and am thoroughly satisfied with the OM education I have

recieved. Could it have been better? Of course! No program is perfect and I

don't think you'll find a perfect one in China either. In fact, I hired an

acupuncturist last year who also went to China to study for a while and she was

sorely disappointed in the education she recieved there. She did say they

treated many more patients there than they do here. But it appeared they only

used standard TCM. They didn't use Master Tong's acupuncture, Japanese, Korean,

or anything other than standard TCM. She also said that the acupuncture clinics

were separate from the herbal facilities and that the Dr.s who prescribed herbs

did not do the acupuncture and the Dr.s who did acupuncture didn't prescribe

herbs. This is where our education is much superior. We do it all.

Acupuncture, herbal medicine, tui-na, diet, etc. We appear to be much more well

rounded and we are also exposed to myriads of other styles of acupuncture.

No thank you. I like the education here. The grass always appears greener on

the other side.

Sincerely,

Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

Chinese Traditional Medicine

naturaldoc1

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:36:50 +0000

RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Don,

You were ahead of the educational game. Two years of high school is counted in

the Chinese Bachelor programs making for six years. What I am saying is that our

programs in the US would not do well if we went to that paradigm. They do well

currently in many areas but clinic, classics and herbs are lacking.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:05 -0500

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine, is

it? What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our

acupuncture is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our herbal

medicine is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here; Zev

Rosenburg, Bob Damone, etc.

>

> Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get. I

want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for average.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your

study was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied

upon high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama. It

was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

also.

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> >

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > > singlewhip2001

> >

> > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> >

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Hi Don:

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > This is an excellent point.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

mobilize and see what we can do?

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to

our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think

that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually

have more education than the general MD from other countries. However, their

education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time,

that is supposedly of importance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs to

actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to that

of the doctorate?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Just a thought.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not yet

have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD), that

I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in Korea.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours, more

clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I agree

that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more rigor

in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is just me,

though.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > CC: habeas_1

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > acudoc11

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

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> > > > >

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> >

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> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Michael

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in terms

of

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by today's

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided by

the

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > MS = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD = 32

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND a

PhD.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to contradict

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > these FACTS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if he is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > still within lurking distance.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Richard

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking about a

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that there

will be

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize western

medical

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the chiropractors

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part of

western

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big difference

is

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend to

covet

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge base in

both

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > > > >

March 15, 2010

Don,

There is a paid residency at Bastyr, or at least there was. Some Samra students

in the DAOM program are also paid a residency stipend. I have also found paid

residencies offered by a clinic in So Cal, think it was in the Irvine area.

Generally, there are not paid residencies for us.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:45:35 -0500

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> If you took out the residencies, they would be four years. Residencies are a

type of OJT and they are paid salaries to do. We do not have residencies in OM,

although I think it would be a good idea to have one (only if we got paid too.)

>

> BTW I went to school for 11 years also. I have a B.S. an MSTOM, and MPH, and

a DAOM. I spent a lot of time in school and I believe it was worth it.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr., DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acuman1

> Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:17:43 -0500

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are looking at

DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> Dave Molony

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> alon marcus <alonmarcus

> Chinese Medicine

> Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

> alonmarcus

>

March 15, 2010

It was also mentioned that Samra was planning to offer employment to their DAOM

residents following graduation. I seem to recall the salary was six figures,

though not sure. A lot of graduates applied for this program.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Medicine

> johnkokko

> Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:19:50 -0800

> Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Samra is doing this right now. The residents are getting $30 G/ year

> working on pain patients in a predominately Korean community. I spoke with

> the Samra supervisors last month. Also, Yehuda has talked about this on the

> group.

> It would be profitable for people to hire acupuncturists, who are willing to

> work hard for an affordable salary and create small acupuncture hospitals.

> Get some investors and spread the idea around the country. After a while,

> the schools will figure it out too.

>

> K

>

> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Kathleen Mathews

> <kthmathews2003wrote:

>

> >

> > John, unfortunately, it would probably be difficult to find a

> > hospital/specialty clinic that would do this. And give us a salary...

> > km

> >

> > --- On Fri, 3/12/10, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Friday, March 12, 2010, 9:59 PM

> >

> > Don't MDs do 4 years of college on average before med school,

> > a year of preparing for the MCAT and waiting for results

> > 4 years of med school

> > 3 years residency

> > = at least 11 years of school after high school

> >

> > For most acupuncture schools:

> > 2-4 years of college

> > 3-4 years of acupuncture school

> > = 5 - 8 years after high school

> >

> > The difference is not having a residency.

> > I think this is what the FPD should be...

> > get your license first while still in school after 3000 hours of studies

> > and then do extensive clinical rounds at hospitals and specialty clinics

> > for

> > the added year in school.

> > Do one extra year (1000 hours) of clinical rounds with experts and then

> > come

> > out with a DAOM.

> > What's wrong with that? Seems like that's what's missing in the American

> > acupuncture education.

> >

> > K

> >

> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 8:17 PM, <acuman1 <acuman1%40aol.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I think we are presuming at least 2 years of prereqs. Plus, we are

> > looking

> > > at DC's and ND's, and not MDs, with their residencies and such..

> > > Dave Molony

> > >

> > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > >

> > > alon marcus <alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net><alonmarcus%

> > 40wans.net>>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > Fri, Mar 12, 2010 6:18 pm

> > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > BM degrees are usually 5-7 years not 4 years.

> > >

> > > 400 29th St. Suite 419

> > > Oakland Ca 94609

> > >

> > > alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net> <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

> >

> > >

March 15, 2010

Don,

You are right sorry for the confusion over courses. These undergrad subjects

are very much a part of western medicine or so the argument goes that they are

laying a foundation for future study. Similarly, this is true for chiropractors

and naturopaths.

Some argue that this level of additional study would help us less with our OM

diagnostics and some would like to reduce our educational hours.

Glad to hear about your positive experience in the DAOM. What time span were

you at PCOM as I do not recall seeing you there?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> don83407

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:56:32 -0500

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> No it's not. My bachelor's was pre-med. It was made up of the biological

sciences, mathematics, chemistries, physics, etc. We did not study very much

medicine at all.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > naturaldoc1

> > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:43 +0000

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Don,

> >

> > The pre-med programs are focused on western medicine, which is important for

their future understanding. Some have argued that this may not be directly

relevent to OM. I think this knowledge is helpful and glad to see more of it in

the DAOM programs.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > don83407

> > > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:05 -0500

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine,

is it? What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our

acupuncture is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our herbal

medicine is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here; Zev

Rosenburg, Bob Damone, etc.

> > >

> > > Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get. I

want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for average.

> > >

> > > Sincerely,

> > >

> > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> > >

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > naturaldoc1

> > > > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > Don,

> > > >

> > > > You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of your

study was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we relied

upon high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

> > > >

> > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > >

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > don83407

> > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in Alabama.

It was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this country

also.

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> > > >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> > > >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> > > >

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > >

> > > > > singlewhip2001

> > > >

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > > >

> > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Hi Don:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > This is an excellent point.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree of

performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we could

do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or exceed the

doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more demanding,

have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our MTOM a

Doctor degree.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

mobilize and see what we can do?

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med; they

simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is " equivalent " to

our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come here and

challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do not think

that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM actually

have more education than the general MD from other countries. However, their

education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not time,

that is supposedly of importance.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's programs

to actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content equal to

that of the doctorate?

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Just a thought.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > naturaldoc1

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

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> > > > > > > Richard,

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do not

yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that your

numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD),

that I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

Korea.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours,

more clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more

rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is

just me, though.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

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> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > acudoc11

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

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> > > > > > > Michael

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> > > > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your opinion?

> > > >

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> > > > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in

terms of

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> > > >

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> > > > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by

today's

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours divided

by the

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> > > >

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> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > MS = 32

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > PhD = 32

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

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> > > > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits BEYOND

a PhD.

> > > >

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> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

contradict

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > these FACTS.

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if

he is

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > still within lurking distance.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Richard

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

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> > > > > > >

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> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> > > >

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> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking

about a

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that

there will be

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize

western medical

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the

chiropractors

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part

of western

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big

difference is

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We tend

to covet

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge

base in both

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

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> > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

March 15, 2010

I taught at PCOM for a few years and I was the first DAOM class to graduate. I

recieved my DAOM in May 2006 though I actually finished in March. I taught or

supervised the clinic from 2002 until I left SD in 2007.

Back to the undergrad pre-med courses. Yes, they do lay a foundation for future

medical study, though the content of the pre-med is not itself medical. It is

scientific in nature and I really think it would benefit all future OM

practitioners as well. We need good physiology and pathophysiology courses,

biologies, and chemistries.

As an aside. The " requirements " for western medicine in the U.S. are two (2)

years of pre-med, although most students do have a bachelor (it is not

required).

I think the same standards would serve AOM as well but we need to be more

mainstreamed into the " system " to make it worth our while financially.

Sincerely,

Don Snow

> Chinese Traditional Medicine

> naturaldoc1

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:20:41 +0000

> RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

>

> Don,

>

> You are right sorry for the confusion over courses. These undergrad subjects

are very much a part of western medicine or so the argument goes that they are

laying a foundation for future study. Similarly, this is true for chiropractors

and naturopaths.

>

> Some argue that this level of additional study would help us less with our OM

diagnostics and some would like to reduce our educational hours.

>

> Glad to hear about your positive experience in the DAOM. What time span were

you at PCOM as I do not recall seeing you there?

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > don83407

> > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:56:32 -0500

> > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > No it's not. My bachelor's was pre-med. It was made up of the biological

sciences, mathematics, chemistries, physics, etc. We did not study very much

medicine at all.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Dr. Donald J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > naturaldoc1

> > > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:51:43 +0000

> > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > >

> > > Don,

> > >

> > > The pre-med programs are focused on western medicine, which is important

for their future understanding. Some have argued that this may not be directly

relevent to OM. I think this knowledge is helpful and glad to see more of it in

the DAOM programs.

> > >

> > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > >

> > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > don83407

> > > > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:40:05 -0500

> > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > >

> > > > When future MD's take pre-med, their focus isn't on allopathic medicine,

is it? What's your point? The OM we learn here is very good. I think our

acupuncture is as good or better that that coming out of China today. Our herbal

medicine is far behind. We have some highly knowledgable people here; Zev

Rosenburg, Bob Damone, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Also, I am not the exception. I simply want all the knowledge I can get.

I want to be considered one of the best in my field. I do not settle for

average.

> > > >

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> > > >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > > naturaldoc1

> > > > > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:12:43 +0000

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > Don,

> > > > >

> > > > > You are the exception whereas in China it is the norm. The focus of

your study was not in OM was it? Our profession would cease to exist if we

relied upon high school to start teaching our OM curriculum.

> > > > >

> > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > > >

> > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > > don83407

> > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:10:50 -0600

> > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually, I started taking college classes in the 10th grade in

Alabama. It was a program for accelerated students. So yes, many do that in this

country also.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, L.Ac.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > >

> > > > > > naturaldoc1

> > > > >

> > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:05:00 +0000

> > > > >

> > > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > A BS in China, I am told, is a six year program of study that starts

during the last two years of high school. Not likely to pull that one off here.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > >

> > > > > > singlewhip2001

> > > > >

> > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:23:15 +0000

> > > > >

> > > > > > Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > >

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> > > > >

> > > > > > Hi Don:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > This is an excellent point.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > The issue is our educational institutions demanding a higher degree

of performance and command of the material in our existing curriculum. If we

could do this and if what you say is true, that our hours are equivalent or

exceed the doctorate level in China/other countries, our focus is to be more

demanding, have a higher standard in our existing programs and lobby to make our

MTOM a Doctor degree.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Anybody interested in starting a grass roots movement for this lets

mobilize and see what we can do?

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow

<don83407 wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Most overseas medical degrees do not require a B.S. in pre-med;

they simply get a BM/BS or equivalent in medicine and they say it is

" equivalent " to our M.D. In fact, with a four year BS in medicine they can come

here and challenge the medical boards and practice as an MD. Personally, I do

not think that is fair, but that is life. Therefore, those of us with an MSTOM

actually have more education than the general MD from other countries. However,

their education is more specialized than ours and therefore, it is content, not

time, that is supposedly of importance.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Therefore, we have the hours (perhaps) within our Master's

programs to actually equal the doctorate, but the question is; is our content

equal to that of the doctorate?

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Just a thought.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

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> > > > >

> > > > > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > naturaldoc1

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:32:15 +0000

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > RE: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Richard,

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Not sure what " current program " you are talking about as we do

not yet have any FPD in operation. Are you asking about the FPD? Not sure that

your numbers are relevant as the OM profession tends to create its own separate

educational reality.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > BTW, there is no discussion of going this route (BS > MS > PhD),

that I recall. Even though this is the common route in China and possibly in

Korea.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > I see no real issue with adding in a few more classroom hours,

more clinical internship and adjusting the Master's to become a doctorate. I

agree that the master's is way too bloated as such. Would also like to see more

rigor in the courses and a higher educational requirement for entry. That is

just me, though.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > CC: habeas_1

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > acudoc11

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:03:14 -0500

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green

Light!

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Michael

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do tell what the current program is equivalent to in your

opinion?

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > By many who count......it is WAY passed even a PhD at least in

terms of

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > college credits or clock hours.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > 60 college credits to get into an acupuncture school and by

today's

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > so-called Masters program another 200 credits (3,000 hours

divided by the

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > standard 15 hrs per credit). That TOTALS 260 credits.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > BS = 120 to 128 credits

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > MS = 32

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > PhD = 32

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Totals approximately 192 credits

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > So we are apparently ALREADY completing 68 college credits

BEYOND a PhD.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hmmmmmmmm.....I know you will have something interesting to

contradict

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > these FACTS.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Oh...and by the way......WHERE is ACAOM's CONSENSUS on the FPD?

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > How are they pushing the FPD through without CONSENSUS?

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > They NEED to PROVE the CONSENSUS.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am sure Mr Dort Bigg (ED of ACAOM) can shed some light..... if

he is

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > still within lurking distance.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Richard

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2010 9:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > naturaldoc1 writes:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > Not sure where this misinfo is coming from. We are not talking

about a

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > PhD but more then likely a clinical doctorate. I am sure that

there will be

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > more western medicine in an expanded education, like a doctorate

(similar

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > to the DAOM programs I would hope). Your ability to utilize

western medical

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > theory is limited by your state laws. For example, the

chiropractors

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > rely upon orthopedic and neurological exams, which are also part

of western

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > medicine. It is how you use them that matters. So, the big

difference is

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > more knowledge and hopefully more rigor in the curriculum. We

tend to covet

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > the foreign trained practitioners for their expanded knowledge

base in both

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > WM and CM, so now it is up to us to become better.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

March 15, 2010

Thanks Don, that makes sense, its both clinic and class courses.

I have looked closely at the DAOM and talked to graduates, its has its

strengthens and weaknesses. Its weak on Acupuncture, it does not teach much on

all systems of Acupuncture, this is a glaring weakness in the Masters and the

DAOM. I think they should focus more on a comprehensive application of all

channels of Acupuncture and not go to non-classical or non-traditional

Acupuncture systems, which can be learned in a CEU format.

Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407

wrote:

>

> This was not from 9 A.M. to 5 P.M, it was from 8 AM to 7 PM and sometimes

later. Yes, it did include clinical hours also. But we had a lot of class

time. We had a lot of class time before and after clinicals also. This time

was spent learning to read CTs, MRIs, xrays, lab reports, etc. It was also

spent in " aggregate OM diagnostics. "

>

> I cannot begin to tell you how much I enjoyed this learning experience. It

was brutal work at times, but it was so very rewarding. I am a better

practiotioner for it and if you haven't actually experienced it you can have no

idea what it was about. Go if you can, it was worth every penny spent and every

hour spent.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> singlewhip2001

> Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:00:43 +0000

> Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

Hi Donald:

>

> Can you explain this every Friday-Sunday classes for 3-years, was this just

class time or included your clinic hours. If it was from 9am-5pm or so

friday-sunday and was just class time then it far exceeded the required hours?

>

> thanks,

> david

>

> > I believe with the addition and subtraction of a few core courses, the

Master's will morph into a new FPD. I hope so anyway. As the first class of the

DAOM at PCOM, my cohort actually went three full time years every Friday thru

Sunday. Our class didn't come just one weekend out of the month. I don't wish

this on anyone, but if one has a burning desire for more education you do what

you must. I personally have no regrets.

> >

> > As you can probably guess, I am pro FPD.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > acudoc11@

> > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:58:52 -0500

> > Re: Re: First Professional Doctorate Gets Green Light!

> >

> > Dave

> >

> > This is where we have a huge disagreement.

> >

> > Lest we not forget that ACAOM is a creature of AAAOM/CCAOM formed by these

> > orgs.

> >

> > Furthermore....and more importantly we ALREADY HAVE the FPD.

> > Its just called a Masters instead of FPD (with some minor changes needed).

> >

> > Richard

> >

> > In a message dated 3/12/2010 11:08:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

> > acuman1@ writes:

> >

> > Lets develop a credible 1st professional doctorate first. It is long

> > overdue.It is long overdue

> >

March 15, 2010

Hello Jessica,

Yes, I do find that very curious indeed. Personally I opposed the FPD on their

website and in writing as did nearly all of my close colleagues - and nearly

everyone I know for that matter. Essentially a letter by the nccaom who has the

contact information for all licensed practitioners should be the way of

gathering some kind of consensus on the issue - not the acaom which may or may

not have contact info for everyone.

And I agree you cannot push through both a DOM and a FPD it's just nonsense.

You should either graduate with a doctorate (ideal as we have enough schooling)

or graduate with a masters and practice for 2-5 years before being allowed to go

back to obtain a doctorate. Unless you can do the doctorates on line, however,

this will create unnecessary fragmentation in the field. With a relatively

small number of schools many people have to move to attend school (I did) and

moving back when you have an established practice is just not worth it.

That said, if everyone near me went back and called themselves doctors of

acupuncture you would almost have to... regardless of no obvious difference in

skills and only an obvious difference in how much money one has spent....

Isn't this all what CEU's are for? Getting the degree/name doctor doesn't mean

anything and there is absolutely no reason to fragment an already divided field

except for more money - and that's not a good enough reason in my mind....

Personally, I think the model dietitians have best fits our field - they can

easily move from state to state, are fully integrated into mainstream healthcare

facilities for those that choose to work that way and can easily have private

practices if they desire, can bill insurance (again for those that want to) and

have a doctorate essentially for teaching/research purposes and nothing more....

-Chad.

Chinese Medicine , Jessica Feltz Wolfson

<shantileigh wrote:

>

> " Do you have the...number or respodents and their breakdown? The only thing I

have seen is 3,000 replies, not many as reflective of our enitre community. "

>

> I hand-delivered 2039 signatures of OPPOSITION to the proposed FPD (of course,

that excludes any letters from individuals who sent their letters directly to

ACAOM, without copying me). I assume this means that ACAOM received less than

961 letters in support of the FPD.

>

> Curious, isn't it?

>

March 15, 2010

You are confusing several issues here. States decide designation and licensing

requirements, not educational institutions or degrees they offer. The FPD will

have a much more rigorous education, which includes more clinic, better western

and classical understanding. I can tell you that as a former clinical

supervisor, most students are weak when it comes to putting it all together. I

think they need both more time and more experience.

The DOM was a licensing designation used in both FL, NM and possibly still in

NV. Did you mean this or were you meaning the new DAOM programs? Most

practitioners that I know already consider themselves doctor simply by virtue

that we diagnose and treat patients.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

dupuis

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:50:28 +0000