Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Zinnia, I resent it too but the truth is that it is a technician designation and does not reflect our training nor that we really are doctors. It is long past the time and need to change this dinosaur. We need to apply the KISS principle. BTW, I am not the first to point out this disparity and our technician status. If you do not like it, then lets work to change it so it is more accurate. I notice you use both DOM and LAc. You might feel different if you practiced in a state that only allows you usage of LAc. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine cmszinnia Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:06:21 +0000 L. Ac. is not a technician Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. _______________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 I agree. We've outgrown the L. Ac. designation, especially if we also practice herbal (i.e. internal) medicine. On Mar 13, 2010, at 6:59 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > > Zinnia, > > I resent it too but the truth is that it is a technician designation and does not reflect our training nor that we really are doctors. It is long past the time and need to change this dinosaur. We need to apply the KISS principle. > > BTW, I am not the first to point out this disparity and our technician status. If you do not like it, then lets work to change it so it is more accurate. I notice you use both DOM and LAc. You might feel different if you practiced in a state that only allows you usage of LAc. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > cmszinnia > Sat, 13 Mar 2010 03:06:21 +0000 > L. Ac. is not a technician > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " > > > > We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. > > > > We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. > > > > Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850553/direct/01/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 The image of L Ac seems confusing. By seeing the Asian acupuncturist figure in Eli Stone tv apisodes, the image is not exactly positive to me. It is actually negative. The guy is pretentous with broken foreign accent and all these cheap needling setting. It is san Francisco! I wonder what it becomes in Montana or Iowa. My previous post suggested that L Ac without practicing herbals are easily being mingled with ND, PT, and other paramedics who also do 'scientific needling'. How can we disassociate from them and establish a healing figure is really important, white gown in clinic setting. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Hugo, There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 In the state of Washington, we are trying to change from LAc to AMP (Asian Medicine Practitioner).  We had the same issue with LAc describing a technique rather than a form of medicine. ________________________________ Yuk Ming <sxm2649 Chinese Medicine Sun, March 14, 2010 8:37:23 AM Re: L. Ac. is not a technician  The image of L Ac seems confusing. By seeing the Asian acupuncturist figure in Eli Stone tv apisodes, the image is not exactly positive to me. It is actually negative. The guy is pretentous with broken foreign accent and all these cheap needling setting. It is san Francisco! I wonder what it becomes in Montana or Iowa. My previous post suggested that L Ac without practicing herbals are easily being mingled with ND, PT, and other paramedics who also do 'scientific needling'. How can we disassociate from them and establish a healing figure is really important, white gown in clinic setting. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Sorry, should not have mentioned LAc as a degree but a state designation for licensing. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:31:06 +0000 > RE: L. Ac. is not a technician > > > Hugo, > > There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). > > I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine > subincor > Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 > Re: L. Ac. is not a technician > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. > > > > I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. > > > > Hugo > > > > ________________________________ > > Hugo Ramiro > > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > Mike, > > > > I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " > > > > We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. > > > > We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. > > > > Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Great idea. .. On Mar 15, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Barbara Beale wrote: > In the state of Washington, we are trying to change from LAc to AMP (Asian Medicine Practitioner). We had the same issue with LAc describing a technique rather than a form of medicine. > > ________________________________ > Yuk Ming <sxm2649 > Chinese Medicine > Sun, March 14, 2010 8:37:23 AM > Re: L. Ac. is not a technician > > > The image of L Ac seems confusing. By seeing the Asian acupuncturist figure in Eli Stone tv apisodes, the image is not exactly positive to me. It is actually negative. The guy is pretentous with broken foreign accent and all these cheap needling setting. It is san Francisco! I wonder what it becomes in Montana or Iowa. > > My previous post suggested that L Ac without practicing herbals are easily being mingled with ND, PT, and other paramedics who also do 'scientific needling'. How can we disassociate from them and establish a healing figure is really important, white gown in clinic setting. > > Sung, Yuk-ming > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Hi Mike; you have misunderstood my point. I am fully aware of the ranking and order of the little letters after our names, and as an example, of how someone will rank their most relevant degree first. My friend who has a masters in bothy computer science and mathematics lists his comp sci degree first because it is where he works, has most experience in, and would *like* to work. Simply invoking a " ranking system " to explain the order of the letters is not enough. There is a shame issue which you have mentioned often: the " shame " of not being recognised for who we are and what we do. How we deal with that shameful business is up to each of us as individuals. You are right to describe it as a mess. Furthermore, it probably does not need to be said, but when a patient reads your letters, they will understand you to be a doctor of chiropracty first, and a licensed acupuncturist second. Is that what you are? If only it were so simple as a ranking system. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, 15 March, 2010 12:31:06 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 hi Hugo, Perhaps people list their degrees/designations in order of attainment, Perhaps people list them in order of their own perceived importance. Either way, its telling. Before I left the religion (of SCIENCE-I am no longer a believer) I attained the lofty rank of Ph.D. and was involved in plenty of research. The general rule was the important authors were listed first (typically primary researcher) and last (research director?) after the title for publications. The also-helped-so-I-must-recognize-thems took the in-between spots. I contend that most people think in their original language and translate everything else into this so they can digest properly. When I listen to someone speaking Spanish, I translate into english before understanding. Then I translate my English thoughts back into Spanish to respond. When one's initial complete medical education is in one paradigm this acts as the First Language. If one trains in western/bio medicine, one tends to describe " dis-ease " in those terms (we see quite a bit of this on this list: check-out subject lines--How many times will someone respond asking for enough tongue/pulse/signs/symptoms to be able to write a resonable CM-related response??). Thats why many " Doctors " and often many chiropractors practice " medical acupuncture " and can't do much other than pain management. Mark Z Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. > > I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. > > Hugo > > ________________________________ > Hugo Ramiro > http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com > http://www.middlemedicine.org > > > > > Mike, > > I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " > > We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. > > We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. > > Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Hugo, I did not list my designations due to shame, quite the opposite. I am first an OM practitioner and have a lot of education and experience in this field prior to entering my additional field. There is a norm as to how titles should be listed and it is not simply I like this one better then that one. Part of it comes down to doctorate degrees should come first, and PhD's lead the field. Relevance is should also enter into this as a PhD in EEE is not likely to matter much to a healthcare provider. I, once, listed a bunch of my accomplishments so that I could make a point but it was too many and too messy. I guess it was not picked up on either. The real issue, in my mind, has to do with our profession once again creating our own rules and not following those of respected and established norms. This is but one of several examples that come to mind about how it tends to harm our public image. Maybe we should be looking at how we can appear more legit. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:29:06 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Hi Mike; you have misunderstood my point. I am fully aware of the ranking and order of the little letters after our names, and as an example, of how someone will rank their most relevant degree first. My friend who has a masters in bothy computer science and mathematics lists his comp sci degree first because it is where he works, has most experience in, and would *like* to work. Simply invoking a " ranking system " to explain the order of the letters is not enough. There is a shame issue which you have mentioned often: the " shame " of not being recognised for who we are and what we do. How we deal with that shameful business is up to each of us as individuals. You are right to describe it as a mess. Furthermore, it probably does not need to be said, but when a patient reads your letters, they will understand you to be a doctor of chiropracty first, and a licensed acupuncturist second. Is that what you are? If only it were so simple as a ranking system. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, 15 March, 2010 12:31:06 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Hi Mike, I believe you are reacting too strongly to my use of the word shame. It is a discussion point in the air, so to speak. As you probably have guessed, I must ask, whose respected and established norms? I don't see why we *must* model ourselves after western institutionalised education. It makes little sense to me. I believe that the issue is *exactly* that we must make our own rules, instead of laying regulation after half-assed regulation down under duress. As regulation has proceeded here in Ontario, it has been evident from the outset that the laws are being written to reflect (western) social norms, not evidence, not Chinese culturo-medical norms, not integrity, not good practice. As far as how to list degrees, that is a point of contention, as Mark has already pointed out. I ask again: is it not perceived that you are DC first, LAc second? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 16 March, 2010 10:58:13 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, I did not list my designations due to shame, quite the opposite. I am first an OM practitioner and have a lot of education and experience in this field prior to entering my additional field. There is a norm as to how titles should be listed and it is not simply I like this one better then that one. Part of it comes down to doctorate degrees should come first, and PhD's lead the field. Relevance is should also enter into this as a PhD in EEE is not likely to matter much to a healthcare provider. I, once, listed a bunch of my accomplishments so that I could make a point but it was too many and too messy. I guess it was not picked up on either. The real issue, in my mind, has to do with our profession once again creating our own rules and not following those of respected and established norms. This is but one of several examples that come to mind about how it tends to harm our public image. Maybe we should be looking at how we can appear more legit. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:29:06 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Hi Mike; you have misunderstood my point. I am fully aware of the ranking and order of the little letters after our names, and as an example, of how someone will rank their most relevant degree first. My friend who has a masters in bothy computer science and mathematics lists his comp sci degree first because it is where he works, has most experience in, and would *like* to work. Simply invoking a " ranking system " to explain the order of the letters is not enough. There is a shame issue which you have mentioned often: the " shame " of not being recognised for who we are and what we do. How we deal with that shameful business is up to each of us as individuals. You are right to describe it as a mess. Furthermore, it probably does not need to be said, but when a patient reads your letters, they will understand you to be a doctor of chiropracty first, and a licensed acupuncturist second. Is that what you are? If only it were so simple as a ranking system. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, 15 March, 2010 12:31:06 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Hugo, I would remind us that most of us live in a western culture, so one can also ask, why we might be ashamed of our culture? Our schools have been walking a thin line between acceptance and counter culture for many years. They have also improved upon getting us more recognized and accepted by many in western medicine and the public, as well as more specialized internship ops. I can now see that many programs are now involved with hospitals and outpatient clinics. We also need to understand that our Asian trained colleagues have been pushing acceptance for many years, much like the FPD. If we want to go back to counter-culture days, then I suspect it will be without their support. We could create a larger divide over this issue that may weaken us back to the dark ages. BTW, have you been involved with writing acupuncture legislation? Much of it makes little sense for us but is written in a particular language (legaleze). It is perceived that a doctorate has more pull then a licensing designation, unless the two are identical (like most other healthcare professions). Yes, I think we need to improve our image. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:12:07 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Hi Mike, I believe you are reacting too strongly to my use of the word shame. It is a discussion point in the air, so to speak. As you probably have guessed, I must ask, whose respected and established norms? I don't see why we *must* model ourselves after western institutionalised education. It makes little sense to me. I believe that the issue is *exactly* that we must make our own rules, instead of laying regulation after half-assed regulation down under duress. As regulation has proceeded here in Ontario, it has been evident from the outset that the laws are being written to reflect (western) social norms, not evidence, not Chinese culturo-medical norms, not integrity, not good practice. As far as how to list degrees, that is a point of contention, as Mark has already pointed out. I ask again: is it not perceived that you are DC first, LAc second? Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 16 March, 2010 10:58:13 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, I did not list my designations due to shame, quite the opposite. I am first an OM practitioner and have a lot of education and experience in this field prior to entering my additional field. There is a norm as to how titles should be listed and it is not simply I like this one better then that one. Part of it comes down to doctorate degrees should come first, and PhD's lead the field. Relevance is should also enter into this as a PhD in EEE is not likely to matter much to a healthcare provider. I, once, listed a bunch of my accomplishments so that I could make a point but it was too many and too messy. I guess it was not picked up on either. The real issue, in my mind, has to do with our profession once again creating our own rules and not following those of respected and established norms. This is but one of several examples that come to mind about how it tends to harm our public image. Maybe we should be looking at how we can appear more legit. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:29:06 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Hi Mike; you have misunderstood my point. I am fully aware of the ranking and order of the little letters after our names, and as an example, of how someone will rank their most relevant degree first. My friend who has a masters in bothy computer science and mathematics lists his comp sci degree first because it is where he works, has most experience in, and would *like* to work. Simply invoking a " ranking system " to explain the order of the letters is not enough. There is a shame issue which you have mentioned often: the " shame " of not being recognised for who we are and what we do. How we deal with that shameful business is up to each of us as individuals. You are right to describe it as a mess. Furthermore, it probably does not need to be said, but when a patient reads your letters, they will understand you to be a doctor of chiropracty first, and a licensed acupuncturist second. Is that what you are? If only it were so simple as a ranking system. Thanks, Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Mon, 15 March, 2010 12:31:06 RE: L. Ac. is not a technician Hugo, There is an established professional way of ranking educational and licensing titles after your name. It is not simply a like or ashamed issue. Doctorate degrees come first followed by other degrees, in our case LAc, then certification such as Dipl Ac (NCCAOM). I list my doctorate first, although a PhD would logically come before this if I had one. Many healthcare professions use the same designation for education and licensure but for some reason TCM/OM does not. We even have states legislating doctor in the designation in lieu of having an actual doctorate degree. We need to fix this mess. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:46:19 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Zinnia, is there a meaning to the order you list your credentials in? I notice that Mike Bowser also lists his DC credentials first. I have noticed that there is a culture of...shame? in at least the north american profession of CM, and I, for one, am sick of it. I am sick of people not recognising us as full doctors and healers, I am sick of the (literally insane) push for more western education in a profession which requires more Chinese science education and practice, I am sick of the forlorn mixing of new age therapies with a system that does not need them, and most of all, I am sick of people in general not recognising the relationship between language and power, and therefore lying prostrate when confronted with a particular language, confusing it for inherent power. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Mike, I resent your labeling of acupuncturists as technician. You write, " LAc is a technician and therefore inappropriate for a doctor. " We acupuncturists provide Chinese diagnoses which are every bit as valid and accurate as western labels. Maybe even more useful clinically than the western descriptive diagnoses. We acupuncturist treat and cure many people on a daily basis. Zinnia, M.B.A. , D.O. M. L. Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Hi Mike: -Mike-- I would remind us that most of us live in a western culture, so one can also ask, why we might be ashamed of our culture? --- Genocide and cultural imperialism are two good reasons to be ashamed. -Mike-- If we want to go back to counter-culture days, then I suspect it will be without their support. We could create a larger divide over this issue that may weaken us back to the dark ages. --- I have never been part of the counterculture (hippies, new age, altmed, etc), and I have no interest in being the underbelly of western culture. I do not swim well with counter-culture types, unless we are talking latin-american counter-culture. I do not in any way shape or form advocate being a part of a " counter " to modern western culture. I advocate being doctors of CM, as much and as best we can. This includes growing and unfolding, but on our terms, not the terms of the currently dominant political force. There is a growing number of our profession who advocate this path. I merely toot *their* horn, not mine. -Mike-- BTW, have you been involved with writing acupuncture legislation? Much of it makes little sense for us but is written in a particular language (legaleze). --- I have been involved in it, but I try to stay out of it. The legalese, while a problem, is not the problem I refer to. The problems I refer to are obvious and have been discussed on this forum ad nauseum: why does every other profession get to take our technologies, methods and resources as if we were a corpse just begging to be picked apart? Very simple problem. -Mike-- It is perceived that a doctorate has more pull then a licensing designation, unless the two are identical (like most other healthcare professions). Yes, I think we need to improve our image. --- I completely agree that a doctorate has more pull than a licensing designation. I am merely asking what effect it has on a patient who sees you - do they think you are a chiropractor first and foremost or a Physician of ? And what is it that *you* want them to think? Sorry to put you on the hotseat, but I really do wonder what your intent is Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Hugo, No problemo. Interesting but very complex set of issues. We are counter-culture as a profession. We would be better if we had some focus as a profession and a better marketing strategy. I agree with you about picking us apart (acupuncture and now Chinese herbs) but that comes from a lack of legislation, and educational standards (some fight against this very idea of protections). Your position on shame with regards to our education is similarly being used by some to take us back to the stone age, no pun intended. That may not have been your position but it is out there working against us as we speak. As for our cultural ties, I was making a point about educational titles and connection within our culture. There is a norm, one that our profession tends to ignore (any healthcare doctorate title that is used for licensing will trump a certification such as " LAc " ). It would be much simpler to advertise the same educational title as licensing designation (MD, DO or DC come to mind). Talk about public confusion. BTW, I live in a state where acupuncture is still relatively unknown and other providers are largely winning the media battle on usage. We created our own unique educational degrees, designations, and standards. We knew not what we were doing, per se. We once had post graduate doctorate programs but these were taken away from us. You are forgetting that our standards are being created by our own profession but enforcement is another issue. The reason why others are able to take what they want is due to the counter culture willingness to concede. We don't want legal battles so we give in. There is a huge difference between the acupuncture and chiropractic professions I have noticed, one is much more willing to fight legal battles and the other is not. These are some of our issues. The real question is how do we seek to resolve them? My intent is to use both paradigms to help my patients. I see a mostly Asian population. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:20:58 +0000 Re: L. Ac. is not a technician Hi Mike: -Mike-- I would remind us that most of us live in a western culture, so one can also ask, why we might be ashamed of our culture? --- Genocide and cultural imperialism are two good reasons to be ashamed. -Mike-- If we want to go back to counter-culture days, then I suspect it will be without their support. We could create a larger divide over this issue that may weaken us back to the dark ages. --- I have never been part of the counterculture (hippies, new age, altmed, etc), and I have no interest in being the underbelly of western culture. I do not swim well with counter-culture types, unless we are talking latin-american counter-culture. I do not in any way shape or form advocate being a part of a " counter " to modern western culture. I advocate being doctors of CM, as much and as best we can. This includes growing and unfolding, but on our terms, not the terms of the currently dominant political force. There is a growing number of our profession who advocate this path. I merely toot *their* horn, not mine. -Mike-- BTW, have you been involved with writing acupuncture legislation? Much of it makes little sense for us but is written in a particular language (legaleze). --- I have been involved in it, but I try to stay out of it. The legalese, while a problem, is not the problem I refer to. The problems I refer to are obvious and have been discussed on this forum ad nauseum: why does every other profession get to take our technologies, methods and resources as if we were a corpse just begging to be picked apart? Very simple problem. -Mike-- It is perceived that a doctorate has more pull then a licensing designation, unless the two are identical (like most other healthcare professions). Yes, I think we need to improve our image. --- I completely agree that a doctorate has more pull than a licensing designation. I am merely asking what effect it has on a patient who sees you - do they think you are a chiropractor first and foremost or a Physician of ? And what is it that *you* want them to think? Sorry to put you on the hotseat, but I really do wonder what your intent is Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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