zhu sha

October 4, 2000

When I studied rasashastra in India, we learned how to make some ayurvedic

mercurial preparations " untoxic " and some of these were used in hospitals. The

mercury/ sulfur combinations were hard to make and very powerful. To the best

of my knowledge, the stuff referred to in tcm is " out of the ground " cinnabar,

maybe having been washed.

The only metallic preparations I've seen available on this continent were iron

and zinc bhasmas.

Gilbert

March 26, 2010

Hi everyone,

could anyone tell me why heating zhu sha (cinnabaris) could make it more

dangerous to human health.

Yandy

March 26, 2010

Cinnabar consists of roughly 84% mercury and 16% sulfides...

when you heat it, some kind of chemical reaction occurs which releases the

mercury from the mercuric sulfide.

Does anyone know the details?

Why even use cinnabar these days?

K

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Yandy Yang <yandy_mail wrote:

>

> Hi everyone,

> could anyone tell me why heating zhu sha (cinnabaris) could make it more

> dangerous to human health.

>

> Yandy

>

March 27, 2010

Hi John,

There are several reasons Zhu Sha's use should not be discontinued. Here are

three big ones.

1. Zhu Sha is one of the most important medicinals for the treatment of Heart

fire. We do not see much of this because we do not generally see psychiatric

patients. But we must continue working to fulfill our actual scope of practice.

2. Slicing parts of ourselves off because of an *idea* that what we do is

dangerous is simply kow-towing to powers who wish for nothing mroe than for us

to be weak.

3. I have biochem research somewhwere on my hard drive which I would provide if

my google desktop weren't fritzing which proves Zhu Sha to be metabolised

quickly and efficiently, not staying in the body in any detectable sense, unlike

other mercuric compounds. Zhu Sha is *safe for use within its traditional

bounds*.

I'd like to emphasize that " ideas " (delusional accusations in the sense I am

using) of danger are themselves dangerous. Delusional accusations of poor ethics

are themselves unethical. Zhu Sha is proven safe from several angles. To

continue to look at the question is ethical, to eliminate this very useful

medicinal is not. To look at bear bile farms and consider whether their

existence is warranted is ethical. To contemplate sustainable harvesting of

herbs is ethical. The latter two examples have evident problems associated with

them which must be considered, unlike the " problem " of Zhu Sha, which just

*sounds* scary to modern western ears and has no evidence associated with it.

That said, there was an excellent documentary I saw last fall on research

carried out in Borden Ontario related to long term exposure of mercury, which

both highlighted why mercury is dangerous and why Zhu Sha isn't. Maybe I'll

summarise it at a later date.

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

<johnkokko

Chinese Medicine

Fri, 26 March, 2010 17:22:59

Re: zhu sha

Cinnabar consists of roughly 84% mercury and 16% sulfides...

when you heat it, some kind of chemical reaction occurs which releases the

mercury from the mercuric sulfide.

Does anyone know the details?

Why even use cinnabar these days?

K

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:12 AM, Yandy Yang <yandy_mail wrote:

>

> Hi everyone,

> could anyone tell me why heating zhu sha (cinnabaris) could make it more

> dangerous to human health.

>

> Yandy

>

March 29, 2010

Hugo,

I have seen the paper that claims cinnabar is relatively safe. The authors are

simply making the point that it is not nearly as easily absorbed as other forms

of mercury. They then go on to document numerous cases of cinnabar poisoning due

to dosage errors, duration of use, or inappropriate preparation methods. It

would be highly irresponsible for us to give zhu sha to patients, especially

these days when so many people already are carrying a high load of heavy metals.

Numerous studies show that zhu sha is definitely toxic. Mercury is a potent

neurotoxin! It is absorbed when it is in its natural cinnabar form, even though

it is much less absorbable than other forms. Inhaling the vapors can be deadly.

Oral ingestion can cause numerous adverse effects at all but the most minute

dosages. To call this a " delusional accusation " could itself be considered

delusional.

http://tinyurl.com/y9udjkv

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20222426

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20017590

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19445157

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12645972

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12011485

- Bill

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi John,

> ï¿½There are several reasons Zhu Sha's use should not be discontinued. Here

are three big ones.

> 1.ï¿½Zhu Sha is one of the mostï¿½important medicinalsï¿½for the treatment of

Heart fire. We do not see much of this because weï¿½do not generally see

psychiatric patients. But we must continue working to fulfill ourï¿½actual scope

of practice.

> 2. Slicing parts of ourselves off because of an *idea* that what we do is

dangerous is simply kow-towing to powers who wish for nothing mroe than for us

to be weak.

> 3. I haveï¿½biochem research somewhwere on my hard drive which I would provide

if my google desktop weren't fritzing whichï¿½proves Zhu Sha to be metabolised

quickly and efficiently, not staying in the body in any detectable sense, unlike

other mercuric compounds. Zhu Sha is *safe for use within its traditional

bounds*.

>

> ï¿½I'd like to emphasize that " ideas " (delusional accusations in the sense I

am using)ï¿½of danger are themselves dangerous.ï¿½Delusional

accusationsï¿½ofï¿½poor ethics are themselves unethical. Zhu Sha is proven safe

from several angles.ï¿½To continue to look at the question is ethical, to

eliminate this very useful medicinal is not. To look at bear bile farms and

consider whether their existence is warranted is ethical. To contemplate

sustainable harvesting of herbs is ethical. The latter two examplesï¿½have

evident problems associated with them which must be considered, unlike the

" problem " of Zhu Sha, which just *sounds* scary to modern western ears and has

no evidence associated with it.

>

> ï¿½That said, there was an excellent documentary I saw last fall on research

carried outï¿½in Borden Ontario related to long term exposure of mercury, which

both highlighted why mercury is dangerous and why Zhu Sha isn't. Maybe I'll

summarise it at a later date.

>

> ï¿½Thanks,

> ï¿½Hugo

> ï¿½

March 29, 2010

Hi Bill. Zhu Sha is safe for use according to OUR established guidelines.

Period.

Show me some evidence, not some hastily aggregated studies intended to scare

(check ref 4 and 6 in particular, with 6 being the results of a literature

review):

ref 1:

" HgS or cinnabar was administered orally (1.0 g/kg) to Hartley-strain guinea

pigs once daily for 7 consecutive days. "

Were these pigs suffering from heart fire? I doubt it. There is no mention of

pattern differentiation taking place in this study (or any of the other

studies). Sounds like ephedra and aristolochoic acid all over again.

" Hence, we tentatively conclude that the increased Hg contents in the cerebellum

following oral administration of HgS and cinnabar were responsible, at least in

part, for the detrimental neurotoxic effect on the VOR system. "

Tentative conclusion? No hard evidence of any kind here. It's a case of

overdosage anyway. Did you know you could overdose on water? Drowning yes, but

water poisoning as well...where the water metabolism is overwhelmed and the

blood thins out, killing you. Dangerous stuff. 8 glasses a day though...and

we're like 70 percent water or something. Takes a genius to parse that one...?

ref 2:

Animals again. Rats this time.

" Though brain got 20 times mercury cumulation after 90 day treatment, the

animals showed no abnormal signs in general behavior and brain

histomorphology,which indicated that rat brain was not sensitive to mercury. "

Wow. Ninety days.

ref 3:

Mice now.

" During the administration period, HgS-treated mice did not reveal overt signs

of clinical toxicity. HgS had no significant effect on body weight, food

consumption, water consumption, and organ weights. In spite of its known

insolubility, HgS was absorbed by the gastrointestinal tract and accumulated in

the liver, spleen and thymus in a dose-dependent manner. "

Dose-dependent. We're talking heavy overdosage again. No sign of toxicity,

accumulation only. Plus, clearance is good if the animal is allowed a chance to

clear it.

Ref 4:

This research is supportive of the use of Zhu Sha according to traditional

guidelines:

" Considering the difference of drug sensitivity and lifecycle between human and

rats, we suggest that cinnabar which contains absoluble Hg < or = 21 microg x

g(-1) should be used for no longer than 2 weeks at daily dose 0.05-0.1 g.

CONCLUSION: Long term use of cinnabar can cause kidney and liver pathological

change, so the dose and administration duration should be limited. The

suggestion is as follows: cinnabar which contains absoluble Hg < or = 21 microg

x g(-1) should be used less than 2 weeks at the daily dose below 0.05-0.1 g. "

Who would give Zhu Sha for a long period? Wait, same people that would give Ma

Huang and the wrong Fang Ji for a long period of time.

Ref 5:

" INTRODUCTION: Acute inhalation of mercury fumes or vapors is a rare but

frequently fatal cause of acute lung injury. This report describes a rare cause

of mercury inhalation from Chinese red. "

If we search the literature, this is more rare than cardiac tamponade due to

acupuncture. Let's stop doing acupuncture to follow this logic.

Ref 6:

" The doses of cinnabar required to produce neurotoxicity are 1000 times higher

than methyl mercury. Following long-term use of cinnabar, renal dysfunction may

occur. Dimercaprol and succimer are effective chelation therapies for general

mercury intoxication including cinnabar. Pharmacological studies of cinnabar

suggest sedative and hypnotic effects, but the therapeutic basis of cinnabar is

still not clear. In summary, cinnabar is chemically inert with a relatively low

toxic potential when taken orally. "

That last sentence is a good one. The thing about one thousand times less toxic

than methyl mercury is a good one too.

If, in fact, people generally have a toxic load of mercury, do you think it is

because of Zhu Sha or amalgams? Zhu Sha, or industry? If it is the latter in

either case, how is eliminating a 5 day dose of Zhu Sha going to change

*anything* (except the patient's correctly diagnosed heart fire)? Even in the

case of problematic long-term mercury loads the type of dosing we would be

providing is miniscule and insignificant. I hope no one worried about Zhu Sha is

eating fish...from anywhere.

Bill, respectfully, please do your research carefully before scare-mongering.

Our profession doesn't need this, and it doesn't deserve this. Chinese medicine

is immensely safe. Let's treat our profession with the respect it deserves,

rather than fear and loathing.

Thanks,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

________________________________

bill_schoenbart <plantmed2

Chinese Medicine

Sun, 28 March, 2010 20:03:01