Guest guest Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010  Hi Mike,  Thanks for your answers. While I can see that legislative issues and so on are potentially very dangerous for us, I will point out again that the dental profession has been using mercury dangerously for how many decades and is facing no repercussions, even as they phase their use of mercury out. This is for two reasons, 1. they are part of the dominant medical system and 2. they rule themselves, i.e. they have barrier after barrier after barrier separating them from legislators. We cannot achieve number 1 as a profession, but we can achieve number 2. Although I do believe we need lawyers, and we need our organisations and associations to dump money into lawmaking on an ongoing basis.  As you can no doubt tell, I can't stand the hypocrisy. The spider's web catches the fly but lets the hawk go free.  I know that I go on about the international law and stuff but that most of you may not know anything about it. The following is just one facet of a very large process that is gaining steam every year:  The International Labour Convention (ILO) Convention No. 169 (1989) is an international and legally binding treaty in those countries which have ratified it. ILO Convention No. 169 An important feature of this document is that it fuses culture and knowledge. In unequivocal terms, article 12 of this document makes a direct link between culture and knowledge by proving that “indigenous peoples have the right to practice and revitalise their cultural traditions and customs. This includes the right to maintain, protect and develop the past, present and future manifestations of their cultures, such as archaeological and historical sites, artifacts, designs, ceremonies, technologies, as well as the right to the restitution of cultural and intellectual property taken without their free and informed consent or in violation of their laws and traditions.† These are very powerful treaties with lots of teeth and a great potential to protect indigenous medicines, like , from being co-opted or regulated by other professions. Our should not be to assimilate, but to follow the example of the naturopaths and chiros and make laws they way we want them made.  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 30 March, 2010 11:45:26 RE: zhu sha - correction  Hugo, You cannot guarantee that mercury will remain inert or not cause any health issues. There are bacteria in our GI system that can transform mercury into methyl mercury, a deadly substance. Mercury has also shown to lower white blood cell counts. As there is no safe form of mercury, by EPA definitions, I think we are increasing our liability several fold unnecessarily and putting ourselves out there as a health risk to the patients we are helping to heal. This would give more ammunition to those that seek to shut us down, as quacks. We can do better. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc subincor Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:20:02 -0700 Re: zhu sha - correction Sorry all, this should read: --- I have frequently refer to standards of practice as set out by the western medical profession. Maybe you are confusing two differing standards of practice. --- " I have frequently heard references to.... " Thanks, Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro <subincor > Mon, 29 March, 2010 17:42:24 Re: zhu sha Hi Mike: I have frequently refer to standards of practice as set out by the western medical profession. Maybe you are confusing two differing standards of practice. Cardiac tamponade via acu, pneumothorax via acu, infectious disease transmission via acu and people still practice and receive acu. I think you are being a little paranoid. By the way, did you say people got their mercury amalgams removed or their zhu sha amalgams? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org Hugo, There are standards (scope of practice, OSHA, EPA, and standards of care). If we want to practice outside of these, then we open ourselves up to possible criminal and legal problems. I get really concerned when I read about people posting defense of using such things, as it has real negative implications for our profession. All it takes would be a couple of high profile mercury poisonings to bring about more regulations upon us. Better that we regulate ourselves, lest we loose more. I find it hard to argue for this when people do suffer from mercury toxicity and improve when they get their amalgams removed. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc subincor Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:09:20 +0000 Re: zhu sha That sounds unreasonable to me Mike. Can we define what safe means? Can we make a list of all the things that are unsafe in this world, and perhaps rank them in order of concern? Back to acupuncture - is *it* safe? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org ____________ _________ _________ __ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> traditional_ chinese_medicine Mon, 29 March, 2010 10:27:38 RE: zhu sha Let us not forget that there is no such thing as a safe dosage of mercury, period. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc plantmed2 (AT) gmail (DOT) com Mon, 29 Mar 2010 00:03:01 +0000 Re: zhu sha Hugo, I have seen the paper that claims cinnabar is relatively safe. The authors are simply making the point that it is not nearly as easily absorbed as other forms of mercury. They then go on to document numerous cases of cinnabar poisoning due to dosage errors, duration of use, or inappropriate preparation methods. It would be highly irresponsible for us to give zhu sha to patients, especially these days when so many people already are carrying a high load of heavy metals. Numerous studies show that zhu sha is definitely toxic. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin! It is absorbed when it is in its natural cinnabar form, even though it is much less absorbable than other forms. Inhaling the vapors can be deadly. Oral ingestion can cause numerous adverse effects at all but the most minute dosages. To call this a " delusional accusation " could itself be considered delusional. http://tinyurl. com/y9udjkv http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/20222426 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/20017590 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/19445157 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/12645972 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/12011485 - Bill Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. ..> wrote: > > Hi John, > �There are several reasons Zhu Sha's use should not be discontinued. Here are three big ones. > 1.�Zhu Sha is one of the most�important medicinals�for the treatment of Heart fire. We do not see much of this because we�do not generally see psychiatric patients. But we must continue working to fulfill our�actual scope of practice. > 2. Slicing parts of ourselves off because of an *idea* that what we do is dangerous is simply kow-towing to powers who wish for nothing mroe than for us to be weak. > 3. I have�biochem research somewhwere on my hard drive which I would provide if my google desktop weren't fritzing which�proves Zhu Sha to be metabolised quickly and efficiently, not staying in the body in any detectable sense, unlike other mercuric compounds. Zhu Sha is *safe for use within its traditional bounds*. > > �I'd like to emphasize that " ideas " (delusional accusations in the sense I am using)�of danger are themselves dangerous.�Delusional accusations�of�poor ethics are themselves unethical. Zhu Sha is proven safe from several angles.�To continue to look at the question is ethical, to eliminate this very useful medicinal is not. To look at bear bile farms and consider whether their existence is warranted is ethical. To contemplate sustainable harvesting of herbs is ethical. The latter two examples�have evident problems associated with them which must be considered, unlike the " problem " of Zhu Sha, which just *sounds* scary to modern western ears and has no evidence associated with it. > > �That said, there was an excellent documentary I saw last fall on research carried out�in Borden Ontario related to long term exposure of mercury, which both highlighted why mercury is dangerous and why Zhu Sha isn't. Maybe I'll summarise it at a later date. > > �Thanks, > �Hugo > � ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowsl ive.com/campaign /thenewbusy? ocid=PID27925: :T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WM_HMP: 032010_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Hugo, You make many good points from a legal perspective but these must also pass through the state and national legal filters. An indigenous culture that wants to practice dangerous practices will not be acceptable and will be denied. I see Zhu Sha, mercury, in that position. The arguments about policy and who is in charge matter little as we are the new kid on the block and are a minority. We can and are gaining in many areas due to work with the dominant medical system. You might want to look at several DAOM's that are now allowing internships in medical facilities. It is happening. I also agree that we are legally challenged and many of us have no stomach for long drawn out court battles but this is how CA got acupuncture in the first place. You might think that we are being regulated by the medical side but in actuality we are being regulated by our own states and we wrote our own laws for legislation many times. I am familiar with my state Chiro laws and can say that chiro sought to add in western medicine, otherwise they would not be primarycare providers. The chiro and ND got stronger because they choose to add in western science or medicine. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine subincor Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:22:27 +0000 International law, was - zhu sha Hi Mike, Thanks for your answers. While I can see that legislative issues and so on are potentially very dangerous for us, I will point out again that the dental profession has been using mercury dangerously for how many decades and is facing no repercussions, even as they phase their use of mercury out. This is for two reasons, 1. they are part of the dominant medical system and 2. they rule themselves, i.e. they have barrier after barrier after barrier separating them from legislators. We cannot achieve number 1 as a profession, but we can achieve number 2. Although I do believe we need lawyers, and we need our organisations and associations to dump money into lawmaking on an ongoing basis. As you can no doubt tell, I can't stand the hypocrisy. The spider's web catches the fly but lets the hawk go free. I know that I go on about the international law and stuff but that most of you may not know anything about it. The following is just one facet of a very large process that is gaining steam every year: The International Labour Convention (ILO) Convention No. 169 (1989) is an international and legally binding treaty in those countries which have ratified it. ILO Convention No. 169 An important feature of this document is that it fuses culture and knowledge. In unequivocal terms, article 12 of this document makes a direct link between culture and knowledge by proving that “indigenous peoples have the right to practice and revitalise their cultural traditions and customs. This includes the right to maintain, protect and develop the past, present and future manifestations of their cultures, such as archaeological and historical sites, artifacts, designs, ceremonies, technologies, as well as the right to the restitution of cultural and intellectual property taken without their free and informed consent or in violation of their laws and traditions.†These are very powerful treaties with lots of teeth and a great potential to protect indigenous medicines, like , from being co-opted or regulated by other professions. Our should not be to assimilate, but to follow the example of the naturopaths and chiros and make laws they way we want them made. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 Chinese Traditional Medicine Tue, 30 March, 2010 11:45:26 RE: zhu sha - correction Hugo, You cannot guarantee that mercury will remain inert or not cause any health issues. There are bacteria in our GI system that can transform mercury into methyl mercury, a deadly substance. Mercury has also shown to lower white blood cell counts. As there is no safe form of mercury, by EPA definitions, I think we are increasing our liability several fold unnecessarily and putting ourselves out there as a health risk to the patients we are helping to heal. This would give more ammunition to those that seek to shut us down, as quacks. We can do better. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc subincor Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:20:02 -0700 Re: zhu sha - correction Sorry all, this should read: --- I have frequently refer to standards of practice as set out by the western medical profession. Maybe you are confusing two differing standards of practice. --- " I have frequently heard references to.... " Thanks, Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro <subincor > Mon, 29 March, 2010 17:42:24 Re: zhu sha Hi Mike: I have frequently refer to standards of practice as set out by the western medical profession. Maybe you are confusing two differing standards of practice. Cardiac tamponade via acu, pneumothorax via acu, infectious disease transmission via acu and people still practice and receive acu. I think you are being a little paranoid. By the way, did you say people got their mercury amalgams removed or their zhu sha amalgams? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org Hugo, There are standards (scope of practice, OSHA, EPA, and standards of care). If we want to practice outside of these, then we open ourselves up to possible criminal and legal problems. I get really concerned when I read about people posting defense of using such things, as it has real negative implications for our profession. All it takes would be a couple of high profile mercury poisonings to bring about more regulations upon us. Better that we regulate ourselves, lest we loose more. I find it hard to argue for this when people do suffer from mercury toxicity and improve when they get their amalgams removed. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc subincor Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:09:20 +0000 Re: zhu sha That sounds unreasonable to me Mike. Can we define what safe means? Can we make a list of all the things that are unsafe in this world, and perhaps rank them in order of concern? Back to acupuncture - is *it* safe? Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middleme dicine.org ____________ _________ _________ __ mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> traditional_ chinese_medicine Mon, 29 March, 2010 10:27:38 RE: zhu sha Let us not forget that there is no such thing as a safe dosage of mercury, period. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc plantmed2 (AT) gmail (DOT) com Mon, 29 Mar 2010 00:03:01 +0000 Re: zhu sha Hugo, I have seen the paper that claims cinnabar is relatively safe. The authors are simply making the point that it is not nearly as easily absorbed as other forms of mercury. They then go on to document numerous cases of cinnabar poisoning due to dosage errors, duration of use, or inappropriate preparation methods. It would be highly irresponsible for us to give zhu sha to patients, especially these days when so many people already are carrying a high load of heavy metals. Numerous studies show that zhu sha is definitely toxic. Mercury is a potent neurotoxin! It is absorbed when it is in its natural cinnabar form, even though it is much less absorbable than other forms. Inhaling the vapors can be deadly. Oral ingestion can cause numerous adverse effects at all but the most minute dosages. To call this a " delusional accusation " could itself be considered delusional. http://tinyurl. com/y9udjkv http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/20222426 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/20017590 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/19445157 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/12645972 http://www.ncbi. nlm.nih.gov/ pubmed/12011485 - Bill Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@.. ..> wrote: > > Hi John, > �There are several reasons Zhu Sha's use should not be discontinued. Here are three big ones. > 1.�Zhu Sha is one of the most�important medicinals�for the treatment of Heart fire. We do not see much of this because we�do not generally see psychiatric patients. But we must continue working to fulfill our�actual scope of practice. > 2. Slicing parts of ourselves off because of an *idea* that what we do is dangerous is simply kow-towing to powers who wish for nothing mroe than for us to be weak. > 3. I have�biochem research somewhwere on my hard drive which I would provide if my google desktop weren't fritzing which�proves Zhu Sha to be metabolised quickly and efficiently, not staying in the body in any detectable sense, unlike other mercuric compounds. Zhu Sha is *safe for use within its traditional bounds*. > > �I'd like to emphasize that " ideas " (delusional accusations in the sense I am using)�of danger are themselves dangerous.�Delusional accusations�of�poor ethics are themselves unethical. Zhu Sha is proven safe from several angles.�To continue to look at the question is ethical, to eliminate this very useful medicinal is not. To look at bear bile farms and consider whether their existence is warranted is ethical. To contemplate sustainable harvesting of herbs is ethical. The latter two examples�have evident problems associated with them which must be considered, unlike the " problem " of Zhu Sha, which just *sounds* scary to modern western ears and has no evidence associated with it. > > �That said, there was an excellent documentary I saw last fall on research carried out�in Borden Ontario related to long term exposure of mercury, which both highlighted why mercury is dangerous and why Zhu Sha isn't. Maybe I'll summarise it at a later date. > > �Thanks, > �Hugo > � ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowsl ive.com/campaign /thenewbusy? ocid=PID27925: :T:WLMTAGL: ON:WL:en- US:WM_HMP: 032010_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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