herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have told

her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid tonifying

the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast milk and

have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words, could herbs

that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the breast milk if the

baby is sick?

[Guest guest]

Qi will travel from the mother to the baby. If you are doing a good job with

the mother, the baby will benefit.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

heylaurag <heylaurag

Chinese Medicine

Thu, 1 April, 2010 15:52:42

herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

 

 

Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have told

her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid tonifying

the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast milk and

have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words, could herbs

that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the breast milk if the

baby is sick?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, but what I'm wondering is if the mother is not sick but the baby is

sick, will tonifying herbs for the mother feed the pathogen in the baby?

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Qi will travel from the mother to the baby. If you are doing a good job with

the mother, the baby will benefit.

>

> Hugo

>

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> heylaurag <heylaurag

> Chinese Medicine

> Thu, 1 April, 2010 15:52:42

> herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

>

>

> Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have

told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid

tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast

milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words, could

herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the breast milk

if the baby is sick?

>

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Laura:

 

" Thanks, but what I'm wondering is if the mother is not sick but the

baby is sick, will tonifying herbs for the mother feed the pathogen in

the baby? "

 

Do a good job for the mom.

 

Remember that the reason that tonics are contraindicated for someone with a

pathogen involve the (*potential*) creation of heat, stagnation and obstruction.

That is why tonics are *indicated* for someone who has a pathogen but weak qi,

or internal cold and so on. The idea is to always keep the patient within the

Golden mean (中庸). All you have to do is that. If you do this, the baby will

benefit.

 

Also consider pediatric massage for the baby. Very effective.

 

Thanks Laura,

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor@..

..> wrote:

>

> Qi will travel from the mother to the baby. If you are doing a good job with

the mother, the baby will benefit.

>

> Hugo

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> http://www.middleme dicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have told

her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid tonifying

the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast milk and have

the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words, could herbs that the

mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the breast milk if the baby is

sick?

 

Hi Laura,

 

This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding this in

the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature regarding the

treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention of herbs for women

postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has not been any mention

of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is only so far as I have read

and translated.

 

For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the mom

and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any way. So

far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So, I would

recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her and not

consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

 

Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is not

very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to use

supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically, the

idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a person's

pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that somehow took root

in our rule books. There are many formulas that tonify as they release the

exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually there. So, for example,

if a person is Qi deficient with exterior symptoms then the treatment principle

will be to supplement the Qi and resolve the exterior. Another way to say this

is that, when the symptoms are on the exterior, it is important not to ignore

these and ONLY focus on the interior.

 

Sharon

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

www.whitepinehealingarts.com

Topics in Blog

sweiz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sharon,

Thanks for posting this. .. .

 

 

On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:01 AM, sharon weizenbaum wrote:

 

> Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is not

very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to use

supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically, the idea

that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a person's pathology

is on the exterior, is an over simplification that somehow took root in our rule

books. There are many formulas that tonify as they release the exterior. The

rule is really to treat what is actually there. So, for example, if a person is

Qi deficient with exterior symptoms then the treatment principle will be to

supplement the Qi and resolve the exterior. Another way to say this is that,

when the symptoms are on the exterior, it is important not to ignore these and

ONLY focus on the interior.

>

> Sharon

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bravo, Sharon!

 

Our medicine must never be dogmatic, or we shall never be able to treat the

whole person.  Years ago when I was in school, I was taught by a clinical

professor of mine, that when treating vacuous patients who contract Wind-Heat

pathogens, to have no qualms about  adding to Yin Qiao

San, Huang Qi and Ren Shen (or Dang Shen,  Xi Yang Shen, or Tai Zi Shen,

depending upon the patient's constitution).  My experience has validated his

advice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

sharon weizenbaum <sweiz

Chinese Medicine

Fri, April 2, 2010 5:01:46 AM

Re:herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

 

 

Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have told

her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid tonifying

the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast milk and have

the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words, could herbs that the

mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the breast milk if the baby is

sick?

 

Hi Laura,

 

This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding this in

the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature regarding the

treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention of herbs for women

postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has not been any mention of

the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is only so far as I have read and

translated.

 

For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the mom

and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any way. So

far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So, I would

recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her and not

consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

 

Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is not

very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to use

supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically, the idea

that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a person's pathology

is on the exterior, is an over simplification that somehow took root in our rule

books. There are many formulas that tonify as they release the exterior. The

rule is really to treat what is actually there. So, for example, if a person is

Qi deficient with exterior symptoms then the treatment principle will be to

supplement the Qi and resolve the exterior. Another way to say this is that,

when the symptoms are on the exterior, it is important not to ignore these and

ONLY focus on the interior.

 

Sharon

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

www.whitepinehealin garts.com

Topics in Blog

sweiz

 

 

[Guest guest]

on the tonifying xu with exterior patterns: the new bensky formulas &

strategies discusses this under one of the ext releasing formulas: maybe gui

zhi tang. basically under scores your points here.

 

the concern about herbs reaching the baby comes from western med advice, as

the drug due transfer to the baby through mom's milk.

 

being as the herbs are not chemicals and recognized by the immune sys as

food, wouldn't the body transform them? so that, say qin jiao while

traveling/transforming from ST to xue to breast milk undergoes a structural

change on the journey? the body can't make this same chem transformation on

the synthetic drugs the way it does on the naturally derived herbs which the

body receives as foods.

 

kath

 

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:01 AM, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have

> told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid

> tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast

> milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words,

> could herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the

> breast milk if the baby is sick?

>

> Hi Laura,

>

> This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding

> this in the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature

> regarding the treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention

> of herbs for women postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has

> not been any mention of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is

> only so far as I have read and translated.

>

> For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the

> mom and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any

> way. So far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So,

> I would recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her

> and not consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

>

>

> Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is

> not very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to

> use supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically,

> the idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a

> person's pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that

> somehow took root in our rule books. There are many formulas that tonify as

> they release the exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually

> there. So, for example, if a person is Qi deficient with exterior symptoms

> then the treatment principle will be to supplement the Qi and resolve the

> exterior. Another way to say this is that, when the symptoms are on the

> exterior, it is important not to ignore these and ONLY focus on the

> interior.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Weizenbaum

> 86 Henry Street

> Amherst, MA 01002

> www.whitepinehealingarts.com

> Topics in Blog

> sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes, actually the McClean/Lyttleton clin hand vol 1 includes exterior

attacks with underlying def (yin, qi, xue) and representative formulas for

tx these pattens. they include yin, xue and qi tonics with ext resolving

meds, as you describe here.

 

kath

 

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:52 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Bravo, Sharon!

>

> Our medicine must never be dogmatic, or we shall never be able to treat the

> whole person. Years ago when I was in school, I was taught by a clinical

> professor of mine, that when treating vacuous patients who

> contract Wind-Heat pathogens, to have no qualms about adding to Yin Qiao

> San, Huang Qi and Ren Shen (or Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen, or Tai Zi Shen,

> depending upon the patient's constitution). My experience has validated his

> advice.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> sharon weizenbaum <sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Fri, April 2, 2010 5:01:46 AM

> Re:herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

>

>

>

> Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have

> told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid

> tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast

> milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words,

> could herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the

> breast milk if the baby is sick?

>

> Hi Laura,

>

> This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding

> this in the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature

> regarding the treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention

> of herbs for women postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has

> not been any mention of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is

> only so far as I have read and translated.

>

> For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the

> mom and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any

> way. So far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So,

> I would recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her

> and not consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

>

>

> Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is

> not very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to

> use supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically,

> the idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a

> person's pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that

> somehow took root in our rule books. There are many formulas that tonify as

> they release the exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually

> there. So, for example, if a person is Qi deficient with exterior symptoms

> then the treatment principle will be to supplement the Qi and resolve the

> exterior. Another way to say this is that, when the symptoms are on the

> exterior, it is important not to ignore these and ONLY focus on the

> interior.

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Weizenbaum

> 86 Henry Street

> Amherst, MA 01002

> www.whitepinehealin garts.com

>

> Topics in Blog

> sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

>

>

[Guest guest]

doesn't the body 'know' what to do with the herbs? in other words, wouldn't

the body 'know' to use the qi/xue tonics itself. rather than passing the

tonic herbs themselves through the breast milk, aren't the herbs tonifying

mom's qi/xue. when mom's qi/xue is tonified, she will pass strong qi/xue to

baby which will help baby's undeveloped immune sys fight the cold. isn't

this a physical demonstration of the 5E theory?

 

isn't the cold a natural process teaching the baby's immune sys how to

work?

 

kath

 

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Hi Laura:

>

>

> " Thanks, but what I'm wondering is if the mother is not sick but the

> baby is sick, will tonifying herbs for the mother feed the pathogen in

> the baby? "

>

> Do a good job for the mom.

>

> Remember that the reason that tonics are contraindicated for someone with a

> pathogen involve the (*potential*) creation of heat, stagnation and

> obstruction. That is why tonics are *indicated* for someone who has a

> pathogen but weak qi, or internal cold and so on. The idea is to always keep

> the patient within the Golden mean (中庸). All you have to do is that. If

you

> do this, the baby will benefit.

>

> Also consider pediatric massage for the baby. Very effective.

>

> Thanks Laura,

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , Hugo Ramiro

> <subincor@.. .> wrote:

> >

> > Qi will travel from the mother to the baby. If you are doing a good job

> with the mother, the baby will benefit.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.middleme dicine.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Da huang ingested by nursing mothers can cause diarrhea in the infant.

 

Mark Zaranski

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> on the tonifying xu with exterior patterns: the new bensky formulas &

> strategies discusses this under one of the ext releasing formulas: maybe gui

> zhi tang. basically under scores your points here.

>

> the concern about herbs reaching the baby comes from western med advice, as

> the drug due transfer to the baby through mom's milk.

>

> being as the herbs are not chemicals and recognized by the immune sys as

> food, wouldn't the body transform them? so that, say qin jiao while

> traveling/transforming from ST to xue to breast milk undergoes a structural

> change on the journey? the body can't make this same chem transformation on

> the synthetic drugs the way it does on the naturally derived herbs which the

> body receives as foods.

>

> kath

>

> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:01 AM, sharon weizenbaum <sweiz wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have

> > told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid

> > tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast

> > milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words,

> > could herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the

> > breast milk if the baby is sick?

> >

> > Hi Laura,

> >

> > This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding

> > this in the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature

> > regarding the treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention

> > of herbs for women postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has

> > not been any mention of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is

> > only so far as I have read and translated.

> >

> > For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the

> > mom and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any

> > way. So far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So,

> > I would recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her

> > and not consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

> >

> >

> > Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is

> > not very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to

> > use supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically,

> > the idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a

> > person's pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that

> > somehow took root in our rule books. There are many formulas that tonify as

> > they release the exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually

> > there. So, for example, if a person is Qi deficient with exterior symptoms

> > then the treatment principle will be to supplement the Qi and resolve the

> > exterior. Another way to say this is that, when the symptoms are on the

> > exterior, it is important not to ignore these and ONLY focus on the

> > interior.

> >

> > Sharon

> >

> > Sharon Weizenbaum

> > 86 Henry Street

> > Amherst, MA 01002

> > www.whitepinehealingarts.com

> > Topics in Blog

> > sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree--in fact, I use qi tonics in most of my formulas for an early stage EPI

and then towards the end I use more and more blood, yin, and sometimes even yang

tonics. However, I do know for certain that if you tonify without addressing

the exterior condition you can make things worse.

 

Laura

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> yes, actually the McClean/Lyttleton clin hand vol 1 includes exterior

> attacks with underlying def (yin, qi, xue) and representative formulas for

> tx these pattens. they include yin, xue and qi tonics with ext resolving

> meds, as you describe here.

>

> kath

>

> On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:52 PM, wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Bravo, Sharon!

> >

> > Our medicine must never be dogmatic, or we shall never be able to treat the

> > whole person. Years ago when I was in school, I was taught by a clinical

> > professor of mine, that when treating vacuous patients who

> > contract Wind-Heat pathogens, to have no qualms about adding to Yin Qiao

> > San, Huang Qi and Ren Shen (or Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen, or Tai Zi Shen,

> > depending upon the patient's constitution). My experience has validated his

> > advice.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > sharon weizenbaum <sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>>

> > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> > Fri, April 2, 2010 5:01:46 AM

> > Re:herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I have

> > told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to avoid

> > tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the breast

> > milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words,

> > could herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through the

> > breast milk if the baby is sick?

> >

> > Hi Laura,

> >

> > This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding

> > this in the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature

> > regarding the treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any mention

> > of herbs for women postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there has

> > not been any mention of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this is

> > only so far as I have read and translated.

> >

> > For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of the

> > mom and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in any

> > way. So far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby. So,

> > I would recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed her

> > and not consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what I do.

> >

> >

> > Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that is

> > not very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid to

> > use supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior. Basically,

> > the idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a

> > person's pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that

> > somehow took root in our rule books. There are many formulas that tonify as

> > they release the exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually

> > there. So, for example, if a person is Qi deficient with exterior symptoms

> > then the treatment principle will be to supplement the Qi and resolve the

> > exterior. Another way to say this is that, when the symptoms are on the

> > exterior, it is important not to ignore these and ONLY focus on the

> > interior.

> >

> > Sharon

> >

> > Sharon Weizenbaum

> > 86 Henry Street

> > Amherst, MA 01002

> > www.whitepinehealin garts.com

> >

> > Topics in Blog

> > sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ren shen is in so many exterior releasing formulas that it necessitates

changing the way that we're taught about formulas... Xiao chai hu tang,

Ren shen bai du san etc.

Like Sharon said, if someone has an exterior pathogen, don't just tonify if

there is a deficiency,

but don't be afraid to tonify as well,if you need to.

There's kind of a disconnect from what is taught in single herbs class

(don't take Ren shen alone if you're sick) and then in formulas class (Ren

shen or Dang shen could be added to an exterior-releasing formula if they're

fortifying properties are needed).

The Shen nong ben cao jing way of looking at Ren shen (sl. cold, generating

fluids) is very different than what we're taught in TCM school (warming,

tonifying SP, Lung qi, Yuan qi). How did our views of Ren shen change over

2000 years?

 

Also, for Zhang Zhong Jing formulas, it seems as though he's conscious of

supporting the zhong qi no matter the presentation (excess of deficiency).

If the middle (earth) is unregulated, then the other herbs will not be

metabolized as efficiently, nor will the other zang/fu transform as well

around the axis which is the earth phase. That's why the " three amigos " are

in so many of these formulas... sheng jiang, zhi gan cao, da zao. The

sweet flavors of da zao and zhi gan cao support the nutritive/ constructive

and sheng jiang's pungency carries the nutritive outward to the defensive

(harmonizing ying / wei).

 

I'm wondering about the TCM idea of eliminating excesses first and then

tonifying later, unless the patient is so deficient, where draining their

zheng Qi would tonify the pathogenic factor. This seems to be more of a

herbal axiom than an acupuncture one. Many practitioners follow Nan jing

rules of tonifying the constitutional presentation first, even in the

presence of " excess " pathogens.

 

K

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 9:28 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

>

>

> I agree--in fact, I use qi tonics in most of my formulas for an early stage

> EPI and then towards the end I use more and more blood, yin, and sometimes

> even yang tonics. However, I do know for certain that if you tonify without

> addressing the exterior condition you can make things worse.

>

> Laura

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " " wrote:

> >

> > yes, actually the McClean/Lyttleton clin hand vol 1 includes exterior

> > attacks with underlying def (yin, qi, xue) and representative formulas

> for

> > tx these pattens. they include yin, xue and qi tonics with ext resolving

> > meds, as you describe here.

> >

> > kath

> >

> > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:52 PM, wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Bravo, Sharon!

> > >

> > > Our medicine must never be dogmatic, or we shall never be able to treat

> the

> > > whole person. Years ago when I was in school, I was taught by a

> clinical

> > > professor of mine, that when treating vacuous patients who

> > > contract Wind-Heat pathogens, to have no qualms about adding to Yin

> Qiao

> > > San, Huang Qi and Ren Shen (or Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen, or Tai Zi Shen,

> > > depending upon the patient's constitution). My experience has validated

> his

> > > advice.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > sharon weizenbaum <sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>>

>

> > > To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > > Fri, April 2, 2010 5:01:46 AM

> > > Re:herbs for breast feeding mom--effect baby?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi, I have a patient who is breast feeding and her baby has a cold. I

> have

> > > told her not stop tonifying herbal formulas if she catches a cold to

> avoid

> > > tonifying the pathogen. She asked if the herbs could come through the

> breast

> > > milk and have the same effect on her baby. Anyone know? In other words,

> > > could herbs that the mother takes tonify a pathogen in a baby through

> the

> > > breast milk if the baby is sick?

> > >

> > > Hi Laura,

> > >

> > > This is an interesting question. I have not found information regarding

> > > this in the Chinese literature. However, there is so much literature

> > > regarding the treatment of women postpartum. I have never seen any

> mention

> > > of herbs for women postpartum being harmful to the baby. In fact, there

> has

> > > not been any mention of the herbs even effecting the baby. Again, this

> is

> > > only so far as I have read and translated.

> > >

> > > For me, in my own practice, this has led me to focus on the health of

> the

> > > mom and to not consider that these same herbs are treating the baby in

> any

> > > way. So far, this has been effective with no side effects for the baby.

> So,

> > > I would recommend that you treat the mother the way you have diagnosed

> her

> > > and not consider this to be giving the baby herbs at all. That is what

> I do.

> > >

> > >

> > > Now, as for the idea of " tonifying the pathogen " - it is an idea that

> is

> > > not very useful. It has made a whole generation of practitioners afraid

> to

> > > use supplementing herbs when there are symptoms on the exterior.

> Basically,

> > > the idea that it is a rule of Chinese medicine to avoid tonics when a

> > > person's pathology is on the exterior, is an over simplification that

> > > somehow took root in our rule books. There are many formulas that

> tonify as

> > > they release the exterior. The rule is really to treat what is actually

> > > there. So, for example, if a person is Qi deficient with exterior

> symptoms

> > > then the treatment principle will be to supplement the Qi and resolve

> the

> > > exterior. Another way to say this is that, when the symptoms are on the

> > > exterior, it is important not to ignore these and ONLY focus on the

> > > interior.

> > >

> > > Sharon

> > >

> > > Sharon Weizenbaum

> > > 86 Henry Street

> > > Amherst, MA 01002

> > > www.whitepinehealin garts.com

> > >

> > > Topics in Blog

> > > sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

for ext path one must release ext. if patient is also qi, xue, yin xu then

add tonics.

 

kath

 

On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 12:28 AM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote:

 

>

>

> I agree--in fact, I use qi tonics in most of my formulas for an early stage

> EPI and then towards the end I use more and more blood, yin, and sometimes

> even yang tonics. However, I do know for certain that if you tonify without

> addressing the exterior condition you can make things worse.

>

> Laura

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " " wrote:

> >

> > yes, actually the McClean/Lyttleton clin hand vol 1 includes exterior

> > attacks with underlying def (yin, qi, xue) and representative formulas

> for

> > tx these pattens. they include yin, xue and qi tonics with ext resolving

> > meds, as you describe here.

> >

> > kath

> >

> > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 2:52 PM, wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Bravo, Sharon!

> > >

> > > Our medicine must never be dogmatic, or we shall never be able to treat

> the

> > > whole person. Years ago when I was in school, I was taught by a

> clinical

> > > professor of mine, that when treating vacuous patients who

> > > contract Wind-Heat pathogens, to have no qualms about adding to Yin

> Qiao

> > > San, Huang Qi and Ren Shen (or Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen, or Tai Zi Shen,

> > > depending upon the patient's constitution). My experience has validated

> his

> > > advice.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

> .

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

Abstain from all that is evil.

Perform all that is good.

Purify your thoughts.

This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

 

Follow Your Bliss!

Joseph Campbell

 

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\

1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1

 

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Ren shen is in so many exterior releasing formulas that it necessitates

> changing the way that we're taught about formulas... Xiao chai hu tang,

 

> The Shen nong ben cao jing way of looking at Ren shen (sl. cold, generating

> fluids) is very different than what we're taught in TCM school (warming,

> tonifying SP, Lung qi, Yuan qi). How did our views of Ren shen change over

> 2000 years?

>

The reason for that I think is that wild Asian ginseng has a moistening property

within(similar to American ginseng) that cultivated Asian and red-hot steamed

sundried Korean don't. There are reasons not to use strong qi tonics that can

aggravate an already xs body reaction or sticky tonics like shu di, light,

exterior releasing herbs are called for in many cases of ext. xie qi invasion,

no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the contrary, like jade

windscreen formula. Xiao chai hu tang harmonizes the shaoyang which is

different than releasing the exterior. " Treat the xs first tcm concept " is like

this: you have a patient with an acute condition, you have to give heat clearing

herbs, ext. releasing herbs, purging herbs etc to treat the acute condition, if

you treat the root not the branch with slow acting tonics the result will be

slow and the condition might worsen. With acupuncture its good practice to

treat root and branch at once if the person is strong enough.

Respectfully, -JB

[Guest guest]

Jason wrote:

" no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the contrary, like jade

windscreen formula. "

 

I've heard that we shouldn't use Yu ping feng san when the patient has an

acute exterior invasion.

It stops sweating and fortifies wei qi, which could hold the pathogen inside

the palace walls, so to speak. What are others view on this?

 

Just curious if there's any literary source that wild ren shen generates

fluids, while cultivated ren shen does not.....?

 

How is Korean ginseng processed? (sundried, steamed).... any herbal

additions?

 

Jason wrote:

" Xiao chai hu tang harmonizes the shaoyang which is different than releasing

the exterior. "

 

Xiao chai hu tang regulates shao yang (the pivot in the yang conformation),

that is true, but it is also seen as an exterior releasing formula by

commentators such as Tang Zong-Hai:

 

" This is an invigorating formula that spreads out the exterior and

harmonizes the interior, that lifts the clear upward and directs the turbid

downward. The exterior of the human body (in this context refers to) the

pivotal dynamic of the interstices and pores and the nutritive and

protective (aspects)....

Where the Qi of the greater yang sinks into the anterior aspect of the chest

from where it has no way out, one can also use this formula to clear the

interior and harmonize the middle, raising and spreading the Qi so that it

does not clump but releases any exterior condition. "

(pgs. 106-107 Formulas and Strategies 2nd ed)

 

So, this idea has been controversial for a long time. Of course, I don't

see Xiao chai hu tang as only releasing the exterior, but the point is that

Ren shen is an ingredient inside of this formula that can release the

pathogen towards the exterior, while harmonizes the interior at the same

time. This function is used clinically to great effect. thoughts?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:05 AM, jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

 

>

>

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > Ren shen is in so many exterior releasing formulas that it necessitates

> > changing the way that we're taught about formulas... Xiao chai hu tang,

>

> > The Shen nong ben cao jing way of looking at Ren shen (sl. cold,

> generating

> > fluids) is very different than what we're taught in TCM school (warming,

> > tonifying SP, Lung qi, Yuan qi). How did our views of Ren shen change

> over

> > 2000 years?

> >

> The reason for that I think is that wild Asian ginseng has a moistening

> property within(similar to American ginseng) that cultivated Asian and

> red-hot steamed sundried Korean don't. There are reasons not to use strong

> qi tonics that can aggravate an already xs body reaction or sticky tonics

> like shu di, light, exterior releasing herbs are called for in many cases of

> ext. xie qi invasion, no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the

> contrary, like jade windscreen formula. Xiao chai hu tang harmonizes the

> shaoyang which is different than releasing the exterior. " Treat the xs first

> tcm concept " is like this: you have a patient with an acute condition, you

> have to give heat clearing herbs, ext. releasing herbs, purging herbs etc to

> treat the acute condition, if you treat the root not the branch with slow

> acting tonics the result will be slow and the condition might worsen. With

> acupuncture its good practice to treat root and branch at once if the person

> is strong enough.

> Respectfully, -JB

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Koko dont forget the ZZJ uses renshen mainly to protect or nourish

fluids, not tonifying zhong qi

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

yes... that's what I wrote... according to the SNBCJ.. it generates fluids

and is sl. cold,

but TCM says it may be warming and tonifies SP, Lung and Yuan Qi.

 

So, the question is when did this thinking change?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 8:33 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

>

>

> Koko dont forget the ZZJ uses renshen mainly to protect or nourish

> fluids, not tonifying zhong qi

>

>

> 400 29th St. Suite 419

> Oakland Ca 94609

>

>

>

> alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

>

>

[Guest guest]

huang qi:

 

yes, huang qi c/i exterior conditions: locks the in the path. other

qi/xue/yin tonics can be used for xu patient.

 

korean ginseng: red is steamed, white is sun-dried. the steaming causes the

roots to turn red.

 

kath

 

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Jason wrote:

> " no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the contrary, like jade

> windscreen formula. "

>

> I've heard that we shouldn't use Yu ping feng san when the patient has an

> acute exterior invasion.

> It stops sweating and fortifies wei qi, which could hold the pathogen

> inside

> the palace walls, so to speak. What are others view on this?

>

>

> How is Korean ginseng processed? (sundried, steamed).... any herbal

> additions?

> > Respectfully, -JB

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> ""

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

 

Abstain from all that is evil.

Perform all that is good.

Purify your thoughts.

This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

 

Follow Your Bliss!

Joseph Campbell

 

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\

1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1

 

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

According to Bensky, Huang qi can stop sweating in qi def. conditions and

promote sweating in ext conditions...Jiao shu de's book is one of many book

sources for the wild ginseng info. To understand shang hun lun and xiao chai hu

tang you have to look at the concept of harmonious change- use the bagua to

explain old yin conditins turning to young yin etc, anyway you want to move the

pathnogen up levels but not make too drastic a change or it will snap back, its

been a while but I remember that a shao yang condition is flickering from ext.

to internal, which is why the action is to harmonize shaoyang. With acupuncture

you would want to reduce the source and luo points of the shaoyang channel...

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> Jason wrote:

> " no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the contrary, like jade

> windscreen formula. "

>

> I've heard that we shouldn't use Yu ping feng san when the patient has an

> acute exterior invasion.

> It stops sweating and fortifies wei qi, which could hold the pathogen inside

> the palace walls, so to speak. What are others view on this?

>

> Just curious if there's any literary source that wild ren shen generates

> fluids, while cultivated ren shen does not.....?

>

> How is Korean ginseng processed? (sundried, steamed).... any herbal

> additions?

>

> Jason wrote:

> " Xiao chai hu tang harmonizes the shaoyang which is different than releasing

> the exterior. "

>

> Xiao chai hu tang regulates shao yang (the pivot in the yang conformation),

> that is true, but it is also seen as an exterior releasing formula by

> commentators such as Tang Zong-Hai:

>

> " This is an invigorating formula that spreads out the exterior and

> harmonizes the interior, that lifts the clear upward and directs the turbid

> downward. The exterior of the human body (in this context refers to) the

> pivotal dynamic of the interstices and pores and the nutritive and

> protective (aspects)....

> Where the Qi of the greater yang sinks into the anterior aspect of the chest

> from where it has no way out, one can also use this formula to clear the

> interior and harmonize the middle, raising and spreading the Qi so that it

> does not clump but releases any exterior condition. "

> (pgs. 106-107 Formulas and Strategies 2nd ed)

>

> So, this idea has been controversial for a long time. Of course, I don't

> see Xiao chai hu tang as only releasing the exterior, but the point is that

> Ren shen is an ingredient inside of this formula that can release the

> pathogen towards the exterior, while harmonizes the interior at the same

> time. This function is used clinically to great effect. thoughts?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 4:05 AM, jasonwcom <jasonwcom wrote:

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> > <johnkokko@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Ren shen is in so many exterior releasing formulas that it necessitates

> > > changing the way that we're taught about formulas... Xiao chai hu tang,

> >

> > > The Shen nong ben cao jing way of looking at Ren shen (sl. cold,

> > generating

> > > fluids) is very different than what we're taught in TCM school (warming,

> > > tonifying SP, Lung qi, Yuan qi). How did our views of Ren shen change

> > over

> > > 2000 years?

> > >

> > The reason for that I think is that wild Asian ginseng has a moistening

> > property within(similar to American ginseng) that cultivated Asian and

> > red-hot steamed sundried Korean don't. There are reasons not to use strong

> > qi tonics that can aggravate an already xs body reaction or sticky tonics

> > like shu di, light, exterior releasing herbs are called for in many cases of

> > ext. xie qi invasion, no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the

> > contrary, like jade windscreen formula. Xiao chai hu tang harmonizes the

> > shaoyang which is different than releasing the exterior. " Treat the xs first

> > tcm concept " is like this: you have a patient with an acute condition, you

> > have to give heat clearing herbs, ext. releasing herbs, purging herbs etc to

> > treat the acute condition, if you treat the root not the branch with slow

> > acting tonics the result will be slow and the condition might worsen. With

> > acupuncture its good practice to treat root and branch at once if the person

> > is strong enough.

> > Respectfully, -JB

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

>

>

> ""

>

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So, is Yu ping feng san used for releasing acute exterior pathogens as well

as tonifying the Wei Qi?

The name of the formula points to the latter usage, but I'm open to

understanding how

Huang qi, Bai zhu and Fang feng can be used when the pathogen is already

lodged inside the body.

 

Seems as if you want the patient to sweat in an exterior attack, you use

something like Ma huang

and pungent herbs, such as Sheng jiang or Bo he or Cong bai...

 

 

Jason said, " With acupuncture you would want to reduce the source and luo

points of the shaoyang channel... " ...

 

From the Nei jing,

I thought that you reduced the luo point of the pathogenic channel (guest)

and tonified the source point of its pair (host)....

By tonifying the source point, you tonify the Yuan qi from that organ, which

in turn, tonifies the Zeng Qi (upright Qi).

Usually luo points were bled and source points could be treated with needles

or moxa.

Please elaborate.

 

K

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Not true at all- in fact sometimes jade windscreen is used at high doses in

acute ext. conditions with excellent results. Page 319 of Bensky/Gamble says

not only is huang qi safe in exterior conditions, it can be used to induce

sweating when regular sweat-inducing herbs have failed.

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> huang qi:

>

> yes, huang qi c/i exterior conditions: locks the in the path. other

> qi/xue/yin tonics can be used for xu patient.

>

> korean ginseng: red is steamed, white is sun-dried. the steaming causes the

> roots to turn red.

>

> kath

>

> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> > Jason wrote:

> > " no one says not to use a tonic like huang qi, on the contrary, like jade

> > windscreen formula. "

> >

> > I've heard that we shouldn't use Yu ping feng san when the patient has an

> > acute exterior invasion.

> > It stops sweating and fortifies wei qi, which could hold the pathogen

> > inside

> > the palace walls, so to speak. What are others view on this?

> >

> >

> > How is Korean ginseng processed? (sundried, steamed).... any herbal

> > additions?

> > > Respectfully, -JB

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> >

> >

> > ""

> >

> >

> > www.tcmreview.com

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

>

> Abstain from all that is evil.

> Perform all that is good.

> Purify your thoughts.

> This is the teaching of the Buddhas.

>

> Follow Your Bliss!

> Joseph Campbell

>

>

> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for :

> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

>

> Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

>

> Amazon.com

>

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\

1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1

>

>

> and from the following supply companies:

> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

>

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nono source/luo technique(reduce luo, tonify source) is used should be used to

tonify internal def. conditions ONLY- if you want to treat exterior conditions

it will make the pathnogen go to a deeper level!!!- To " REDUCE THE LUO AND THE

SOURCE POINTS OF THE SHAO YANG CHANNEL(S) " is a special technique for " shao

yang " syndrome(only) and should only be used as such, in general avoid the luo

points in exterior syndromes, shao yang syndrome is not exterior syndrome it is

MORE complicated than that. Huang qi has an immune regulatory effect, it can

stop sweating or promote it, fang feng is an exterior releasing herb that

promtes sweating, bai zhu is a drying spleen boosting herb not cloying or too

hot...I'm not making this stuff up

 

Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko

wrote:

>

> So, is Yu ping feng san used for releasing acute exterior pathogens as well

> as tonifying the Wei Qi?

> The name of the formula points to the latter usage, but I'm open to

> understanding how

> Huang qi, Bai zhu and Fang feng can be used when the pathogen is already

> lodged inside the body.

>

> Seems as if you want the patient to sweat in an exterior attack, you use

> something like Ma huang

> and pungent herbs, such as Sheng jiang or Bo he or Cong bai...

>

>

> Jason said, " With acupuncture you would want to reduce the source and luo

> points of the shaoyang channel... " ...

>

> From the Nei jing,

> I thought that you reduced the luo point of the pathogenic channel (guest)

> and tonified the source point of its pair (host)....

> By tonifying the source point, you tonify the Yuan qi from that organ, which

> in turn, tonifies the Zeng Qi (upright Qi).

> Usually luo points were bled and source points could be treated with needles

> or moxa.

> Please elaborate.

>

> K

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Correction, avoid source/luo combo when there is xie qi affecting that channel

in specific as it will drive the pathnogen deeper, using lu7 and li4 for ext.

has a very complicated action and is good in ext. conditions

 

Chinese Medicine , " jasonwcom " <jasonwcom

wrote:

>

> Nono source/luo technique(reduce luo, tonify source) is used should be used to

tonify internal def. conditions ONLY- if you want to treat exterior conditions

it will make the pathnogen go to a deeper level!!!- To " REDUCE THE LUO AND THE

SOURCE POINTS OF THE SHAO YANG CHANNEL(S) " is a special technique for " shao

yang " syndrome(only) and should only be used as such, in general avoid the luo

points in exterior syndromes, shao yang syndrome is not exterior syndrome it is

MORE complicated than that. Huang qi has an immune regulatory effect, it can

stop sweating or promote it, fang feng is an exterior releasing herb that

promtes sweating, bai zhu is a drying spleen boosting herb not cloying or too

hot...I'm not making this stuff up

>

> Chinese Medicine , <johnkokko@>

wrote:

> >

> > So, is Yu ping feng san used for releasing acute exterior pathogens as well

> > as tonifying the Wei Qi?

> > The name of the formula points to the latter usage, but I'm open to

> > understanding how

> > Huang qi, Bai zhu and Fang feng can be used when the pathogen is already

> > lodged inside the body.

> >

> > Seems as if you want the patient to sweat in an exterior attack, you use

> > something like Ma huang

> > and pungent herbs, such as Sheng jiang or Bo he or Cong bai...

> >

> >

> > Jason said, " With acupuncture you would want to reduce the source and luo

> > points of the shaoyang channel... " ...

> >

> > From the Nei jing,

> > I thought that you reduced the luo point of the pathogenic channel (guest)

> > and tonified the source point of its pair (host)....

> > By tonifying the source point, you tonify the Yuan qi from that organ, which

> > in turn, tonifies the Zeng Qi (upright Qi).

> > Usually luo points were bled and source points could be treated with needles

> > or moxa.

> > Please elaborate.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

G

Good evening,

 

I am new to this , but do we usually sign our names, etc, to take

responsibility for our posts?  Thanks.  Please let me know if this is different

than other professional related ...

 

 

 

 

 

--

Robin C. Valentine, VMD, PA

 

Valentine Veterinary Services

 

Serving South Florida and Greater Philadelphia, PA