Guest guest Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 Don, Z'ev and all, Jewish tradition teaches us that this world is all an illusion, and that in the world of truth, those that are on the bottom will really on the top, that materialism is given to us to test and refine us: Will someone who is successful, recognize that their affuence really is a gift and a test: will they bestow kindness, in manner, word and deed to those less fortunate than them? Will those wallowing in poverty get stuck in self-pity? If we pass the tests given to us and recognize that we are simply messengers given the opportunities to change the world based upon our paticular circumstances, then we will be blessed to have bestowed upon us a greater clarity which continues to grow. Perhaps it will happen someday, (hopefully in my lifetime!) that the day will come when in a medical setting, experienced, knowledgeable, and broadminded practitioners of Chinese medicine will be primary care physicians at medical facilities, and have working under them, Western radiologists and oncologists, for example, who would act as techicians, run tests and and when necessary, in cases requiring aggresive intervention, to save a patient's life, UNDER OUR GUIDANCE, order chemo or radiation as complementary therapies to our primary care? An upsider down world? ________________________________ Donald Snow <don83407 Chinese Traditional Medicine Wed, April 21, 2010 9:15:46 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD It should be noted that PTs, OTs, and nurses are support personnel. They are not legally permitted to dx and tx without an MDs or DOs supervision. In other words, they are seen as highly specialized technicians. I am not a technician and neither are Master's degree AOM practitioners, we are stand alone practitioners, not support personnel. This is the point of Dr. Bowser's thread. If we do not want to be seen as a tech, then we need the FPD and title. Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine hobbs.valeriehobbs Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:32:04 +0000 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD This will be my last public post on this thread for a while. Mike, I enjoy your posts on all kinds of subjects. I offer what I am in complete respect for you. I haven't misunderstood, I disagreed with you. I've also been trying to keep my answers short (out of respect for others on the list) and based on fact, not opinion. So maybe I haven't given you enough examples so that you know I'm not misunderstanding. Here are some examples of statute change and no statute change as degree titles changed: MD --education doctorate DC - education doctorate PT - doctorate available, Master's available -- education level is not mandated in statutes. Professional plans through national association and accreditation, community of colleges to voluntarily go to all DPT education by 2020 have not included a change in accreditation or statue. Audiology - went to doctorate in 2007 - changed statutes Nursing - tried to require Bachelors of all RN's -- failed. Have not changed statutes even with Masters, doctorate, and specialty education degrees OT - Both Master's & Doctorate are available- did not change statutes.Even when Master's & doctorate degrees were developed in 2006, most statutes simply state that a graduate must be from an " approved " or " accredited " program. I understand that you and others in our profession believe that if we all have one degree at the doctorate level that this will create branding and will better serve our profession. I recognize that there are other opinions on this subject, and a real public health need (much like there was in nursing) to keep a Master's level degree to provide affordable care while we also offer a doctorate. I can live with a educationally tiered profession. There are many examples (see above) that suggest that scopes of practice do not need to change to allow multiple levels of education to lead to practice --and-- people with a doctorate do use the " Dr. " title and work in positions that require that level of skill. I have some experience in this area, and have been active in formative discussions in higher education since 1999. If you have any questions you want to ask me offline, feel free. Valerie Hobbs. L.Ac Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Valerie, > > You still do not appear to understand what I and Don have posted. I would suggest, you contact me with your questions about my posts in order to avoid further misinterpretation. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > hobbs.valeriehobbs > Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:25:17 +0000 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respectfully, this " confusion " among patients and the solution to bring everyone to a higher educational degree is still your opinion. > > > > There are other medical professions that have achieved doctoral status other than MD and chiropractic. Your opinion that we should follow the chiropractic model is only one way, not at this time THE way. The times we live in demand this too. > > > > It is not a fact that when all other health profession moved to a doctorate that the minimum education in licensing standards changed. For many, yes, they changed. For all, they did not. > > > > I would just request if when you promote a shift in licensure as a result of the FPD, that you do so as your opinion or even your best outcome, and not as a fait accompli. It's way too early to talk about legislative outcome. > > > > Valerie > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Valerie, > > > > > > The simple reason for all this is public understanding of who and what we are. When you confuse them with all these different titles, they struggle to find accurate information. The public is confused and it takes awhile to market the message to them. The times we live in demand this. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > hobbs.valeriehobbs@ > > > Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:39:48 +0000 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you do have it, but why does licensure have to reflect the highest level of education? The DPT is still a PT and still a doctor. The MPT is still a PT. In my state, a DAOM can use the " Dr. " title. I have an MSOM, and use L. Ac. We coexist. > > > > > > > > > > > > As we consider transitions, we need to consider the times in which we work, and the populations we serve. Nursing tried at one time to eliminate all the AA nurses and bring everyone to the BSN educational level. Didn't meet the public need, and we find multiple educational points of entry for nursing. > > > > > > > > > > > > All I'm saying at this point, is that there are many different scenarios to investigate before assuming that one conclusion is inevitable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Valerie > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , Donald Snow <don83407@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that what Dr. Bowser is saying is that the state licensure titles do not match our educational titles. I don't think he is discussing educational level as such. He is stating that an MD license matches the MD degree, and the DC license matches the academic degree title. As far as the PTs go, their title is still PT. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope I got it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 Yehuda, Even further, I am hoping for a world where radiation and chemotherapy will be unnecessary, and we find more humane treatments for cancer patients, even better, a truly comprehensive cure. . . On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:32 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Don, Z'ev and all, > > Jewish tradition teaches us that this world is all an illusion, and that in the world of truth, those that are on the bottom will really on the top, that materialism is given to us to test and refine us: Will someone who is successful, recognize that their affuence really is a gift and a test: will they bestow kindness, in manner, word and deed to those less fortunate than them? Will those wallowing in poverty get stuck in self-pity? If we pass the tests given to us and recognize that we are simply messengers given the opportunities to change the world based upon our paticular circumstances, then we will be blessed to have bestowed upon us a greater clarity which continues to grow. > > Perhaps it will happen someday, (hopefully in my lifetime!) that the day will come when in a medical setting, experienced, knowledgeable, and broadminded practitioners of Chinese medicine will be primary care physicians at medical facilities, and have working under them, Western radiologists and oncologists, for example, who would act as techicians, run tests and and when necessary, in cases requiring aggresive intervention, to save a patient's life, UNDER OUR GUIDANCE, order chemo or radiation as complementary therapies to our primary care? An upsider down world? > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2010 Report Share Posted April 21, 2010 Amen! But it's important to realize that cancer does not suddenly appear, it does not occur in a vacuum, usually the pathogenesis involves a long process of accumulated toxic baggage, emotionally, relating to diet, lifestyle, exposure to poison, etc., sometimes for many years, but like an invisible iceberg, suddenly appears and causes terrible damage.  Of course, we need to affect a paradigm change in terms of outlook on life, diet, exercise and sleep. Cancer needs to be a wakeup call to make those changes and not just attack it. Of course! But cancer is also like a runaway train, and I question whether in cases of aggressive, stage III or stage IV cancers, whether acupuncture and Chinese medicine, even if injected, along with the above changes, can work fast enough and strong enough to save the patients life? If we look at radiation and chemo as toxic heat, which is focused,  harnessed and given at much lower levels, and we defang it by using our  herbs and appoaching it as any other pathogen, then, the radiation or chemo, can be looked at as helpful complements to the main treatments which we would administer and supervise. Of course, some day, I fear, even in the more distant future, hopefully people will stop taking themselves and their egos so seriously. People will act thoughtfully and not just shoot from the hip, people will be taught as children to love themselves and  to nurture themselves  by how they eat and live and people will always think twice before acting selfishly towards others and towards our environment. On that day, I suspect that for the most part, cancer will cease to rear its ugly head! Halevai (It should only be so) sooner than later!    ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Wed, April 21, 2010 11:55:45 AM Re: dreaming of a world upside down  Yehuda, Even further, I am hoping for a world where radiation and chemotherapy will be unnecessary, and we find more humane treatments for cancer patients, even better, a truly comprehensive cure. . . On Apr 21, 2010, at 11:32 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Don, Z'ev and all, > > Jewish tradition teaches us that this world is all an illusion, and that in the world of truth, those that are on the bottom will really on the top, that materialism is given to us to test and refine us: Will someone who is successful, recognize that their affuence really is a gift and a test: will they bestow kindness, in manner, word and deed to those less fortunate than them? Will those wallowing in poverty get stuck in self-pity? If we pass the tests given to us and recognize that we are simply messengers given the opportunities to change the world based upon our paticular circumstances, then we will be blessed to have bestowed upon us a greater clarity which continues to grow. > > Perhaps it will happen someday, (hopefully in my lifetime!) that the day will come when in a medical setting, experienced, knowledgeable, and broadminded practitioners of Chinese medicine will be primary care physicians at medical facilities, and have working under them, Western radiologists and oncologists, for example, who would act as techicians, run tests and and when necessary, in cases requiring aggresive intervention, to save a patient's life, UNDER OUR GUIDANCE, order chemo or radiation as complementary therapies to our primary care? An upsider down world? > > > > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Yehuda, great post. What you are pointing to is the emergence of natural hierarchy as the basis for relationship among human beings. In my experience this occurs when we are each striving wholeheartedly, and without cynicism, to live up to the highest we know to be true. It's the emergence of heaven on earth. What else could we possibly be here for than to do everything we possibly can in a lifetime to make this so? Such a task requires a radical level of transparency and trust that not many are interested in. As far as I'm concerned it's our place as practitioners of CM to hold that line of integrity above and beyond anything else. Warm regards, Straight Ahead, Lonny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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