Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I have a patient seeing me for fertility. She has no problem conceiving. She showed signs this last month of pregnancy shortly after ovulation, but did not show signs on the following appts. I asked her what was going on and she stated that she does concieve, then her body runs a 2 day high fever that kills it. She does not show signs of heat but shows severe kidney deficiency. Western doctors have tested her and do not see why this is happening. Both her and her husband check out just fine. Anyone seen anything life this before? Lee Tritt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Hi Lee, sounds like she conceives, using up her Jing of course, and falls over the edge experiencing a flaring of kidney yin deficiency fire. I always say this, but I'll say it again, not necessarily for your benefit: Just do a clear and accurate CM differentiation. Most if not all fo your questions will be answered via that route. Sorry to not provide you with a specific protocol. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org _._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Thank you Hugo. I just had a " duh! " moment. Lee ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro <subincor Chinese Medicine Wed, April 21, 2010 7:29:56 PM Re: Strange fertility question Hi Lee, sounds like she conceives, using up her Jing of course, and falls over the edge experiencing a flaring of kidney yin deficiency fire. I always say this, but I'll say it again, not necessarily for your benefit: Just do a clear and accurate CM differentiation. Most if not all fo your questions will be answered via that route. Sorry to not provide you with a specific protocol. Hugo ____________ _________ _________ __ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com http://www.middlemedicine.org _._,___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Lee, I consulted with my colleague, Yaron Seidman, who is a Chinese medicine fertility specialist. Here is his answer for you. . Dear Z'ev, I have seen this several times and solved it most times successfully. The woman beats (harmonizes) with the moon every 29.5 days, this belongs to our post heaven life or Xing. At the end of the beat and as the period comes, heart fire descend into the water and new blood starts forming. When pregnancy takes place this beat stops. The heart and water need to shift to a Ming (embryonic) state and so the period does not come for the next 10 months of pregnancy. This flaring of Yang at or right after conception only happens when the Yang is very deficient and it is a heart problems (at least from what I have encountered). The heart Yang can't shift into a Ming state and it wants to go down into the water (as it usually does), but the water is not there to take it (conception took place), hence it looks like fever or feeling hot. To keep a pregnancy Ming needs to get going to the embryo, emperor fire doesn't go to the baby instead stays in the Xing on top- patient feels hot. The heat doesn't kill the embryo but rather the heat can't get to the embryo. The job of the practitioner is to get the heat into the Ming. Aside from considering how to do it, the additions of the year, quality of herbs and lifestyle modifications need to be understood and explained to the patient. A. The practitioner needs to establish first if the heart is not right: 1. look the patient in the eyes as she speaks and feel it 2. listen how she talks and hear it. 3. last ask the questions of the inferior type (heart palpitations, concentration, sleeping) B. Decide a strategy to revive the Shao Yin connection between the heart and kidneys, this connection allows the Xing to turn into Ming. C. Strategy decided, then decide the herbal formulas to deliver the goods. D. Patient should not try to conceive until the practitioner feels that the heart can change Xing into Ming (see A) If this fails, the practitioner failed, try again. hope this helps Yaron On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, lee tritt wrote: > I have a patient seeing me for fertility. She has no problem conceiving. She showed signs this last month of pregnancy shortly after ovulation, but did not show signs on the following appts. > > I asked her what was going on and she stated that she does concieve, then her body runs a 2 day high fever that kills it. > > She does not show signs of heat but shows severe kidney deficiency. > > Western doctors have tested her and do not see why this is happening. Both her and her husband check out just fine. > > Anyone seen anything life this before? > > Lee Tritt > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 This is a much better answer than mine, my turn to say " duh " , but more like " duuuh? " . I have a question: --- The heart Yang can't shift into a Ming state and it wants to go down into the water (as it usually does), but the water is not there to take it (conception took place), hence it looks like fever or feeling hot. --- The water not being there to take the yang is *not* a yin deficiency, right? This is strictly false heat, true cold? I know Heart Yang deficiency was mentioned as the only pathology the author has seen for this phenom, I am just trying to get these ideas past my gates...duuuuuh. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Z'ev: Your friend rocks!!! (in my opinion). Jan ________________________________ <zrosenbe Chinese Medicine Wed, April 21, 2010 5:44:25 PM Re: Strange fertility question Lee, I consulted with my colleague, Yaron Seidman, who is a Chinese medicine fertility specialist. Here is his answer for you. . Dear Z'ev, I have seen this several times and solved it most times successfully. The woman beats (harmonizes) with the moon every 29.5 days, this belongs to our post heaven life or Xing. At the end of the beat and as the period comes, heart fire descend into the water and new blood starts forming. When pregnancy takes place this beat stops. The heart and water need to shift to a Ming (embryonic) state and so the period does not come for the next 10 months of pregnancy. This flaring of Yang at or right after conception only happens when the Yang is very deficient and it is a heart problems (at least from what I have encountered). The heart Yang can't shift into a Ming state and it wants to go down into the water (as it usually does), but the water is not there to take it (conception took place), hence it looks like fever or feeling hot. To keep a pregnancy Ming needs to get going to the embryo, emperor fire doesn't go to the baby instead stays in the Xing on top- patient feels hot. The heat doesn't kill the embryo but rather the heat can't get to the embryo. The job of the practitioner is to get the heat into the Ming. Aside from considering how to do it, the additions of the year, quality of herbs and lifestyle modifications need to be understood and explained to the patient. A. The practitioner needs to establish first if the heart is not right: 1. look the patient in the eyes as she speaks and feel it 2. listen how she talks and hear it. 3. last ask the questions of the inferior type (heart palpitations, concentration, sleeping) B. Decide a strategy to revive the Shao Yin connection between the heart and kidneys, this connection allows the Xing to turn into Ming. C. Strategy decided, then decide the herbal formulas to deliver the goods. D. Patient should not try to conceive until the practitioner feels that the heart can change Xing into Ming (see A) If this fails, the practitioner failed, try again. hope this helps Yaron On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, lee tritt wrote: > I have a patient seeing me for fertility. She has no problem conceiving. She showed signs this last month of pregnancy shortly after ovulation, but did not show signs on the following appts. > > I asked her what was going on and she stated that she does concieve, then her body runs a 2 day high fever that kills it. > > She does not show signs of heat but shows severe kidney deficiency. > > Western doctors have tested her and do not see why this is happening. Both her and her husband check out just fine. > > Anyone seen anything life this before? > > Lee Tritt > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Lee Liver Yin/Kidney Essence deficiency. Focus on strengthening her immune system. Richard In a message dated 4/21/2010 8:44:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zrosenbe writes: Lee, I consulted with my colleague, Yaron Seidman, who is a Chinese medicine fertility specialist. Here is his answer for you. . Dear Z'ev, I have seen this several times and solved it most times successfully. The woman beats (harmonizes) with the moon every 29.5 days, this belongs to our post heaven life or Xing. At the end of the beat and as the period comes, heart fire descend into the water and new blood starts forming. When pregnancy takes place this beat stops. The heart and water need to shift to a Ming (embryonic) state and so the period does not come for the next 10 months of pregnancy. This flaring of Yang at or right after conception only happens when the Yang is very deficient and it is a heart problems (at least from what I have encountered). The heart Yang can't shift into a Ming state and it wants to go down into the water (as it usually does), but the water is not there to take it (conception took place), hence it looks like fever or feeling hot. To keep a pregnancy Ming needs to get going to the embryo, emperor fire doesn't go to the baby instead stays in the Xing on top- patient feels hot. The heat doesn't kill the embryo but rather the heat can't get to the embryo. The job of the practitioner is to get the heat into the Ming. Aside from considering how to do it, the additions of the year, quality of herbs and lifestyle modifications need to be understood and explained to the patient. A. The practitioner needs to establish first if the heart is not right: 1. look the patient in the eyes as she speaks and feel it 2. listen how she talks and hear it. 3. last ask the questions of the inferior type (heart palpitations, concentration, sleeping) B. Decide a strategy to revive the Shao Yin connection between the heart and kidneys, this connection allows the Xing to turn into Ming. C. Strategy decided, then decide the herbal formulas to deliver the goods. D. Patient should not try to conceive until the practitioner feels that the heart can change Xing into Ming (see A) If this fails, the practitioner failed, try again. hope this helps Yaron On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:25 PM, lee tritt wrote: > I have a patient seeing me for fertility. She has no problem conceiving. She showed signs this last month of pregnancy shortly after ovulation, but did not show signs on the following appts. > > I asked her what was going on and she stated that she does concieve, then her body runs a 2 day high fever that kills it. > > She does not show signs of heat but shows severe kidney deficiency. > > Western doctors have tested her and do not see why this is happening. Both her and her husband check out just fine. > > Anyone seen anything life this before? > > Lee Tritt > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia To change your email delivery settings, click, and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Z'ev/Yaron's post should be placed in a Golden Cabinet. I feel pretty small in comparison but will suggest a possible western science refinement --she and her partner may have very similar DNA so that when she conceives, she does not produce a blocking antibody. Perhaps the process of unprotected immune attack against the embryo causes fever to manifest in her. Or she could have increased killer cell activity. See http://www.ivf-infertility.com/infertility/causes/immunological.php for more info. You say this has been considered by her western docs, and none of the dysfunction in her immune system has been verified. I don't know if this is a correct step because it applies western science thinking to Chinese herbology, but I would choose to inclue herbs that fit her pattern that do not increase immune response and that are anti inflammatory in nature. So among the several that fit her condition in any class of herbs, those are the ones I would tend to use. I use Chen & Chen as my primary source, but I'm cognizant that some of the information is based on animal studies, and therefore possibly not immediately transferable. However, I am very aware that using the appropriate formula, regardless of the western anti-inflammatory nature of the herbs, can still correct the condition. If you come up with a formula that fits the essential diagnosis well, but has several immune enhancing herbs, try to balance that with some that are anti inflammatory in nature. Many common fertility formulas have this balance. You may make only a substitution or two or increase a dose to accomplish this. Good luck. I have to (gladly) go study Z'ev's post now.... Valerie Hobbs L Ac Chinese Medicine , lee tritt <ladylee0999 wrote: > > I have a patient seeing me for fertility. She has no problem conceiving. She showed signs this last month of pregnancy shortly after ovulation, but did not show signs on the following appts. > > I asked her what was going on and she stated that she does concieve, then her body runs a 2 day high fever that kills it. > > She does not show signs of heat but shows severe kidney deficiency. > > Western doctors have tested her and do not see why this is happening. Both her and her husband check out just fine. > > Anyone seen anything life this before? > > Lee Tritt > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 Valerie, I think yours is a very valuable insight and contribution to the discussion. .. my only suggestion is that we should be able to reframe this information, and understand it from a Chinese medical perspective. .. I'm going to forward your post to Yaron, as I consider him to be an expert in this area. . On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:20 AM, ValerieH wrote: > Z'ev/Yaron's post should be placed in a Golden Cabinet. > > I feel pretty small in comparison but will suggest a possible western science refinement --she and her partner may have very similar DNA so that when she conceives, she does not produce a blocking antibody. Perhaps the process of unprotected immune attack against the embryo causes fever to manifest in her. Or she could have increased killer cell activity. > See http://www.ivf-infertility.com/infertility/causes/immunological.php for more info. > > You say this has been considered by her western docs, and none of the dysfunction in her immune system has been verified. > > I don't know if this is a correct step because it applies western science thinking to Chinese herbology, but I would choose to inclue herbs that fit her pattern that do not increase immune response and that are anti inflammatory in nature. So among the several that fit her condition in any class of herbs, those are the ones I would tend to use. I use Chen & Chen as my primary source, but I'm cognizant that some of the information is based on animal studies, and therefore possibly not immediately transferable. > > However, I am very aware that using the appropriate formula, regardless of the western anti-inflammatory nature of the herbs, can still correct the condition. If you come up with a formula that fits the essential diagnosis well, but has several immune enhancing herbs, try to balance that with some that are anti inflammatory in nature. Many common fertility formulas have this balance. You may make only a substitution or two or increase a dose to accomplish this. > > Good luck. I have to (gladly) go study Z'ev's post now.... > > Valerie Hobbs L Ac Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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