Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to them. I would like to know people's thoughts on this. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Actually, the schools wanted and recommended it for the DAOM to the accrediting authorities, but they would not hear of it nor permit it. Don Snow Chinese Medicine mark Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:13:47 -0700 An Online TCM Program is Needed I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to them. I would like to know people's thoughts on this. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2010 Report Share Posted April 23, 2010 Which accrediting authorities. There are a number of legitimate universities in Canada, US and Europe running graduate programs completely online. On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > > Actually, the schools wanted and recommended it for the DAOM to the > accrediting authorities, but they would not hear of it nor permit it. > > Don Snow > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > mark <mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:13:47 -0700 > An Online TCM Program is Needed > > I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, > is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is > having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on > an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. > Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare > materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM > colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to > them. > > I would like to know people's thoughts on this. > > - Mark > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. People already think that we go to " technical " schools. How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, tongue, patient) Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, formulas... but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling technique, clinic ? The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we do... one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? K On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <markwrote: > Which accrediting authorities. There are a number of legitimate > universities > in Canada, US and Europe running graduate programs completely online. > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Actually, the schools wanted and recommended it for the DAOM to the > > accrediting authorities, but they would not hear of it nor permit it. > > > > Don Snow > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > mark <mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > > Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:13:47 -0700 > > An Online TCM Program is Needed > > > > I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, > > is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is > > having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on > > an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. > > Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare > > materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM > > colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to > > them. > > > > I would like to know people's thoughts on this. > > > > - Mark > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 John: you raise legitimate pts here. maybe some kind of a combined approach could work. the talking head style lecturing could be done online. advantages are that top faculty from diverse geographic locations could be enlisted, and students could use the unused travel time to study. obviously many courses, including those you listed require hands on learning. perhaps this could happen in periodic modules which might eliminate the necessity of living on or near a physical campus. just exploring possibilities here. this approach could be esp. useful in helping LAcs with practices earn a clinical doctorate. kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:01 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. > People already think that we go to " technical " schools. > How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, > tongue, patient) > Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, > formulas... > but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling technique, > clinic ? > > The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we > do... > one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? > > K > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <mark<mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > >wrote: > > > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Follow Your Bliss! Joseph Campbell Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Vendors: Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Kath, I agree that the purely didactic courses could be made to be online classes and also see an economic advantage for students to save money in travel time and being able to have a job outside of school. On the other end, this kind of system has the potential for some schools to monopolize the TCM education system (famous doctors from China or famous published practitioner vs local hoo-dad)... your pick, same price. Who would you go for? I see a school like PCOM for instance, who arguably has some of the biggest names on their faculty, gaining more students and a small school without the same capital to hire " famous doctors " . losing students or course-money and eventually closing down (many are on the verge already). Don't we already have online CEU courses for licensees? It seems as though online courses for TCM college is somehow inevitable in the future, but is this the best thing for the students? What do we lose when we make our teachers non-personal? What about Q and A ? K On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 7:33 AM, wrote: > > > John: > > you raise legitimate pts here. maybe some kind of a combined approach could > work. the talking head style lecturing could be done online. advantages > are that top faculty from diverse geographic locations could be enlisted, > and students could use the unused travel time to study. obviously many > courses, including those you listed require hands on learning. perhaps this > could happen in periodic modules which might eliminate the necessity of > living on or near a physical campus. just exploring possibilities here. > > this approach could be esp. useful in helping LAcs with practices earn a > clinical doctorate. > > kath > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:01 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. > > People already think that we go to " technical " schools. > > How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, > > tongue, patient) > > Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, > > formulas... > > but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling > technique, > > clinic ? > > > > The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we > > do... > > one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <mark<mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > <mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Abstain from all that is evil. > Perform all that is good. > Purify your thoughts. > This is the teaching of the Buddhas. > > Follow Your Bliss! > Joseph Campbell > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > Vendors: > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > Amazon.com > > http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777 > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 I did my initial training through the traditional apprenticeship model. Every day after work I would go and spend 4 hours working in the clinic of the doctor I was learning from. After 4 years of that I went to China for certified training. The Chinese viewede as already being trained because of my appenticeship, they were just taking me through the steps to get my paperwork. They knew the doctor I studied under and the lineage of his teachers. That is what mattered to him. Here in North America we relegate apprenticeships to the'less desirable' trades, and only accept university as a valid form of training. This really speaks to the fundamental flaws in our education system. On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:01 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. > People already think that we go to " technical " schools. > How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, > tongue, patient) > Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, > formulas... > but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling technique, > clinic ? > > The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we > do... > one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? > > K > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <mark<mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > >wrote: > > > > Which accrediting authorities. There are a number of legitimate > > universities > > in Canada, US and Europe running graduate programs completely online. > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Donald Snow <don83407<don83407%40msn.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, the schools wanted and recommended it for the DAOM to the > > > accrediting authorities, but they would not hear of it nor permit it. > > > > > > Don Snow > > > > > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > mark <mark%40mindbodyasone.com> <mark% > 40mindbodyasone.com> > > > > Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:13:47 -0700 > > > An Online TCM Program is Needed > > > > > > I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, > > > is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is > > > having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on > > > an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. > > > Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare > > > materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM > > > colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to > > > them. > > > > > > I would like to know people's thoughts on this. > > > > > > - Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010  Hi Mark, I see no problem with that set-up in terms of quality education. The problem, as always, is what to do about " standards " and then the logistics of enforcing quality.  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Mark Milotay <mark Chinese Medicine Fri, 23 April, 2010 18:13:47 An Online TCM Program is Needed  I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to them. I would like to know people's thoughts on this. - Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Yes but in China they also usually attend a formal TCM university. We see lots of graduates that then follow up school with internship in China. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > mark > Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:36:37 -0700 > Re: An Online TCM Program is Needed > > I did my initial training through the traditional apprenticeship model. > Every day after work I would go and spend 4 hours working in the clinic of > the doctor I was learning from. After 4 years of that I went to China for > certified training. The Chinese viewede as already being trained because of > my appenticeship, they were just taking me through the steps to get my > paperwork. They knew the doctor I studied under and the lineage of his > teachers. That is what mattered to him. Here in North America we relegate > apprenticeships to the'less desirable' trades, and only accept university > as a valid form of training. This really speaks to the fundamental flaws in > our education system. > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 6:01 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > > > > > I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. > > People already think that we go to " technical " schools. > > How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, > > tongue, patient) > > Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, > > formulas... > > but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling technique, > > clinic ? > > > > The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we > > do... > > one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? > > > > K > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <mark<mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > > >wrote: > > > > > > > Which accrediting authorities. There are a number of legitimate > > > universities > > > in Canada, US and Europe running graduate programs completely online. > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Donald Snow <don83407<don83407%40msn.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, the schools wanted and recommended it for the DAOM to the > > > > accrediting authorities, but they would not hear of it nor permit it. > > > > > > > > Don Snow > > > > > > > > > > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > > mark <mark%40mindbodyasone.com> <mark% > > 40mindbodyasone.com> > > > > > > Fri, 23 Apr 2010 15:13:47 -0700 > > > > An Online TCM Program is Needed > > > > > > > > I was thinking as I was running around at lunch that what is needed, > > > > is a properly run online TCM training program is needed. What I see is > > > > having the academic part taught online, and the practical part done on > > > > an apprenticeship basis in clinics where the student is based. > > > > Instructors from around the world could come together to prepare > > > > materials. I know that we have representatives from several TCM > > > > colleges on this list, and so I would like to put this idea forward to > > > > them. > > > > > > > > I would like to know people's thoughts on this. > > > > > > > > - Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 Hi Mark, thanks for saying that. I really wonder why people seem to think that the university model is the best. It is a far inferior mode of learning compared to apprenticeship. There are deep ramifications to the loss of the apprensticeship system. I am not sure many on this forum have any idea of what that loss is, most having not had apprenticeship training, I am guessing. I think it may have a lot to do with concentration of power. That's the rhetoric in the international law stuff I have been mentioning recently - so long as we have concentration of power we will have monolithic structures. In order to preserve diversity and plurality we must decentralise. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Mark Milotay <mark Chinese Medicine Sun, 25 April, 2010 10:36:37 Re: An Online TCM Program is Needed I did my initial training through the traditional apprenticeship model. Every day after work I would go and spend 4 hours working in the clinic of the doctor I was learning from. After 4 years of that I went to China for certified training. The Chinese viewede as already being trained because of my appenticeship, they were just taking me through the steps to get my paperwork. They knew the doctor I studied under and the lineage of his teachers. That is what mattered to him. Here in North America we relegate apprenticeships to the'less desirable' trades, and only accept university as a valid form of training. This really speaks to the fundamental flaws in our education system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 The big issue here would be accreditation and also financial aid. If we are to force students to pay up front, then so be it. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acukath Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:33:25 -0400 Re: An Online TCM Program is Needed John: you raise legitimate pts here. maybe some kind of a combined approach could work. the talking head style lecturing could be done online. advantages are that top faculty from diverse geographic locations could be enlisted, and students could use the unused travel time to study. obviously many courses, including those you listed require hands on learning. perhaps this could happen in periodic modules which might eliminate the necessity of living on or near a physical campus. just exploring possibilities here. this approach could be esp. useful in helping LAcs with practices earn a clinical doctorate. kath On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:01 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > I think that online TCM colleges would sort of discredit what we do. > People already think that we go to " technical " schools. > How would you learn diagnosis correctly from an online program? (pulse, > tongue, patient) > Maybe some classes could be online... foundations, single herbs, > formulas... > but how would you pull-off acupuncture point locations, needling technique, > clinic ? > > The apprenticeship nature of Chinese medicine is the best thing that we > do... > one-on-one, face-to-face. Why dilute this education? > > K > > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Mark Milotay <mark<mark%40mindbodyasone.com> > >wrote: > > > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Follow Your Bliss! Joseph Campbell Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Vendors: Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 and what is happening in the three full years of didactic AND CLINICAL training? Actually the clinic training is what needs to be looked at. What I saw at a recent graduating class at the best school in Florida is a travesty. At least the school tout's itself as one of the best in the country. They haven't a clue. A graduating class of 18 in which the majority couldn't properly ask questions, ferret out a decent diagnosis, come up with both an acupuncture formula (and why) and a herbal formula (and why). What were these people doing in clinic for at least 1,000 hours? Most had already taken and passed their NCCAOM multiple modules and if I were a betting person.....they ALL will graduate. The programs are a smaller component part of the overall probelm(s). The implementation and therefore the schools/teachers and quality of students are a greater percentage of the component problem(s). Once that is addressed THEN the so-called residency has merit. But at least these recent graduates won't sink quickly. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 12:05:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, acukath writes: in our west med sys, the apprenticeship is the residency. and yes we need that to learn hands on skills: pulse/T dx. of course a new practitioner needs to spend time with a seasoned, experienced doc. the problem is we don't yet have the infrastructure to implement residences. down the line, yes, or course we should have them. i'm sure we all know we would adv our training through residences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 in our west med sys, the apprenticeship is the residency. and yes we need that to learn hands on skills: pulse/T dx. of course a new practitioner needs to spend time with a seasoned, experienced doc. the problem is we don't yet have the infrastructure to implement residences. down the line, yes, or course we should have them. i'm sure we all know we would adv our training through residences. kath -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Abstain from all that is evil. Perform all that is good. Purify your thoughts. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Follow Your Bliss! Joseph Campbell Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Vendors: Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Dragon-Liniment-Eco-Friendly-Wild-Crafted/dp/B001OC\ 1AZ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=hpc & qid=1254968032 & sr=8-1 Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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