Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Mercurius, ....they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines. There are also voll and vega test units. and acu-pointers. I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment. Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist? and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared? What't the name of the documentary you stated ? K On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > If I can find someone who will invent me an electro-acupuncture device > which > I can program to various frequencies, I'll just use that. > Until then, I use copper plates. > > > - > " " <zrosenbe <zrosenbe%40san.rr.com>> > To: <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 11:01 PM > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > Right on target, Martha. . . > > > > > > On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Martha Cooley wrote: > > > >> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?! > >> I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!! > >> > >> Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort > >> our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is. > >> Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these > >> modalities undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our > >> medicine, and can become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging > >> deeeper and studying more. > >> > >> The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological > >> medicine, with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The > > >> great challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their > >> reverberations into patients. > >> > >> To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very > place > >> where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a > formula, > >> by touch, by meditation. > >> And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want > >> nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, > producing > >> steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they > >> should have nothing to do with EMF's... > >> > >> If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are > >> not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?! > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> > > > >> To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > >> Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM > >> Re: Herbal Pharmacology > >> > >> > >> I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with > electroherbalism. > >> www.electroherbalis m.com > >> > >> - > >> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> > >> <traditional_ chinese_medicine > > >> Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:08 PM > >> RE: Herbal Pharmacology > >> > >> > > >> > Nice to hear success with your treatment plan. I am also interested in > >> > Scenar and wonder about courses, machine, etc. This is what I think > >> > many > >> > of us are hoping to glean some aspect(s) of treatment plan that work > >> > well > >> > together and how to pull it off. I am making a huge effort to expand > my > >> > knowledge base. > >> > > >> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > traditional_ chinese_medicine > >> > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com > >> > Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:40 -0500 > >> > RE: Herbal Pharmacology > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 K, Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, ²¹É³ءËby ren min wei sheng publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English versions of these texts. Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English perception? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " version, without the poetry but still informed by the classics. This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical medicine and traditional medicine? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Martha said: I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!! Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is. Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying more. Joe sez: So very, very well put - I wish I had said that I particularly like: become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeper and studying more... It seems that there are quite a few that think that Chinese medicine is so simple and shallow that they can learn it all in a couple of short years of school. Mercurius said: They don't let us use anything but TCM in the student clinic. Joe sez: ....because you are supposed to be learning to treat people with Chinese medicine?!?! It makes me wonder.... why are you even in CM school if you want to do the things on this website? do you simply seek to use our license designation for your personal gain? Martha said To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, by touch, by meditation. so beautiful so well crafted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Kokko good points K This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical medicine and traditional medicine? Stephen Interesting question - does it start with a definition of the terms? Is Classical Chinese medicine defined as a style of practice from the " classical " period? If so, what time period are we talking about? By " traditional " medicine are you referring to TCM as a style, or something else? Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:59 -0600, " " wrote: K, Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English versions of these texts. Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English perception? -Jason [1]Chinese Medicine @ [[2]Chinese Medicine ] On Behalf Of john kokko Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM [3]Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " version, without the poetry but still informed by the classics. K References 1. Chinese Medicine%40 2. Chinese Medicine%40 3. Chinese Medicine%40 4. ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmaco\ logy 5. Chinese Medicine ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herb\ al%20Pharmacology 6. Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxb2x\ qM2Q4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0lkAzM4NzM\ xBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--?act=reply & messageNum=38731 7. Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGR\ zdW1wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2x\ rA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw-- 8. Chinese Medicine/message/38571;_ylc=X3\ oDMTM2YzVjNGZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzM4NzMxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4NwR0cGNJZAMzODU3MQ-- 9. Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJm\ cTM1cmFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwE\ c2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNzI1NDk1ODc-?o=6 10. Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcnJjYzlx\ BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Zn\ aHAEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw-- 11. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/ 12. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia 13. 14. http://us.ard./SIG=15rlkak9k/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=GFv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6060255/R=0/S\ IG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar./?.cpdl=grpj 15. http://us.ard./SIG=15r3nvjkt/M=493064.13814537.13965224.10835568/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=GVv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6042764/R=0/S\ IG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents./momconnection 16. http://us.ard./SIG=15r0e7eqc/M=493064.14012770.13963757.13298430/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=Glv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6015306/R=0/S\ IG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents./hobbiesandactivitieszone/ 17. /;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTV0N2J0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5Nz\ cEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjcyNTQ5NTg3 18. Chinese Medicine-traditional ?subject=Change%2\ 0Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional 19. Chinese Medicine-digest ?subject=Email%20Deliv\ ery:%20Digest 20. Chinese Medicine- ?subject=Unsubscr\ ibe 21. -- http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords? Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine marthacooleylac Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?! I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!! Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is. Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying more. The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine, with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their reverberations into patients. To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, by touch, by meditation. And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should have nothing to do with EMF's... If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?! ________________________________ Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum Chinese Medicine Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM Re: Herbal Pharmacology I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism. www.electroherbalis m.com - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> <traditional_ chinese_medicine > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 12:08 PM RE: Herbal Pharmacology > > Nice to hear success with your treatment plan. I am also interested in > Scenar and wonder about courses, machine, etc. This is what I think many > of us are hoping to glean some aspect(s) of treatment plan that work well > together and how to pull it off. I am making a huge effort to expand my > knowledge base. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > traditional_ chinese_medicine > don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com > Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:06:40 -0500 > RE: Herbal Pharmacology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Stephen, these terms " classical " and " traditional " are not clearly defined within our medicine, either in time scope or in schools of thought, but what I've gleaned from context is that the classical period is anywhere from Nei jing (Han dynasty) through Sun Si Miao (Tang dyansty) and in some eyes, extending this to Li Shi Zhen (Ming dynasty) and Wen bing thinkers (Qing dynasty)... but I don't think that the 20th century is considered part of the " classical " period. Mao's reintroduction of Chinese medicine into mainstream practice might be considered the beginning of TCM or " traditional " Chinese medicine. If we look at it textually, I would consider everything from the Nei jing through the Zhen jiu da cheng as classical acupuncture and the Shen nong ben cao jing through Wen bing as classical herbalism. Others might disagree, but I think this is inclusive enough to cover the most important schools. What are your thoughts? K On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:31 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote: > > > Kokko > good points > > > K > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between > classical medicine and traditional medicine? > > Stephen > Interesting question - does it start with a definition of the > terms? > Is Classical Chinese medicine defined as a style of practice from > the " classical " period? If so, what time period are we talking > about? > > By " traditional " medicine are you referring to TCM as a style, or > something else? > > Stephen Woodley LAc > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:59 -0600, " " > < <%40Chinese Medicine>> > wrote: > > K, > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early > classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. > However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in > classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? > Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We > should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM > education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you > look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei > sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease > classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re > bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have > English > versions of these texts. > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note > medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So > I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an > English > perception? > -Jason > > [1]Chinese Medicine > @ > [[2]Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medi\ cine%40>] > On > Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > To: [3]Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40y\ ahoogroups.com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff > notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > K > > References > > 1. Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\ ne%2540> > 2. Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\ ne%2540> > 3. Chinese Medicine%40<Traditional_Chinese_Medici\ ne%2540> > 4. <%40Chinese Medicine> > ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmacology > 5. Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine\ %40> > ?subject=RE:%20TCM%20-%20Herbal%20Pharmacology > 6. > Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxb2x\ qM2Q4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0lkAzM4NzM\ xBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw--?act=reply & messageNum=38731 > 7. > Chinese Medicine/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGR\ zdW1wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2x\ rA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw-- > 8. > Chinese Medicine/message/38571;_ylc=X3\ oDMTM2YzVjNGZsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BG1zZ0\ lkAzM4NzMxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4NwR0cGNJZAMzODU3MQ-- > 9. > Chinese Medicine/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJm\ cTM1cmFuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwE\ c2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyNzI1NDk1ODc-?o=6 > 10. > Chinese Medicine;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcnJjYzlx\ BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3Zn\ aHAEc3RpbWUDMTI3MjU0OTU4Nw-- > 11. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/ > 12. http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > 13. > 14. > http://us.ard./SIG=15rlkak9k/M=493064.13983314.13965207.13298430/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=GFv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6060255/R=0/S\ IG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar./?.cpdl=grpj > 15. > http://us.ard./SIG=15r3nvjkt/M=493064.13814537.13965224.10835568/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=GVv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6042764/R=0/S\ IG=11jbo19n3/*http://advision.webevents./momconnection > 16. > http://us.ard./SIG=15r0e7eqc/M=493064.14012770.13963757.13298430/D=grph\ ealth/S=1705060814:MKP1/Y=/EXP=1272556787/L=78ef89a6-5397-11df-93b2-a353148\ 6c0d6/B=Glv.K2KImjg-/J=1272549587858967/K=EQuNsa6L30ICwAdTluYLeg/A=6015306/R=0/S\ IG=11vlkvigg/*http://advision.webevents./hobbiesandactivitieszone/ > 17. > /;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTV0N2J0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzk0OTU5Nz\ cEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDYwODE0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjcyNTQ5NTg3 > 18. Chinese Medicine-traditional <Traditional_Chin\ ese_Medicine-traditional%40> > ?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional > 19. Chinese Medicine-digest <Traditional_Chinese_M\ edicine-digest%40> > ?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest > 20. Chinese Medicine- <Traditional_Chin\ ese_Medicine-%40> > ?subject=Un > 21. > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - mmm... Fastmail... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine johnkokko Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU, Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools, Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these students go thru. Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do. My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Chinese Traditional Medicine Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM  John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.turtleclinic. com www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the higher levels available. Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course. Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Herbal Pharmacology John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> > > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Jason, Did you take a weekend class with Arnaud, (Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky?) in Boulder a couple of years ago? That was your experience a couple of years ago. Today, Arnaud teaches 8 clock hours (9-1, 2-6pm) on Saturdays and 7 clock hours (9-12, 2-6) on Sundays (15 hours/ week). The second day has a long lunch, so it's 7 hours, not 8. So, again, that's 9 weekends x 15 hours, but still not enough. K On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, < > wrote: > > > Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more > opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one > can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than > that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is > available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake > further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. > > Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few > classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could > it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope > of TCM and the higher levels available. > > Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is > 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily > rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 > hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There > really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend > course. > > Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) > for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 > hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM > does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied > with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that > is about 100 hours. > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>[ > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>] > On Behalf Of mike Bowser > Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM > > To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > RE: Herbal Pharmacology > > John, > > You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. > So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews > posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as > well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> < > johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>> > Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > > I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff > > notes " addition of TCM > > and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in > > China, > > that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not > > obligatory there. > > So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, > Korea or > > Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have > > a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in > > between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as > > well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, > > SHZBL or Wen bing. > > One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " > > version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the > > DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be > considered > > the " cliff notes " version. > > Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin > > gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This > > is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels > like > > a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. > > Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? > > I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the > > " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). > > K > > 2010/4/29 <<%40Chinese Medicine>< > %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> > > > > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes > (in > > > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > > > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. > SHL > > > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > > > > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? > Obviously > > > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should > not > > > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM > education > > > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > > > > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > > > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > > > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, > fu > > > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > > > versions of these texts. > > > > > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine > is > > > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > > > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > > > perception? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > > On Behalf Of john > > > kokko > > > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > > > > Jason, > > > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > > > version, > > > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > > > > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between > classical > > > medicine > > > and traditional medicine? > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "" > > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Good to know he is doing more… But of course one can study any subject biomedical integration, SHL, warm disease, LDY, QBW, YTS, DGR their whole life. But I don’t get the point of that and comparing TCM to cliff notes. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:57 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Did you take a weekend class with Arnaud, (Craig Mitchell and Dan Bensky?) in Boulder a couple of years ago? That was your experience a couple of years ago. Today, Arnaud teaches 8 clock hours (9-1, 2-6pm) on Saturdays and 7 clock hours (9-12, 2-6) on Sundays (15 hours/ week). The second day has a long lunch, so it's 7 hours, not 8. So, again, that's 9 weekends x 15 hours, but still not enough. K On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, < <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > > > Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more > opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one > can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than > that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is > available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake > further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. > > Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few > classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could > it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope > of TCM and the higher levels available. > > Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is > 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily > rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 > hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There > really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend > course. > > Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) > for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 > hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM > does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied > with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that > is about 100 hours. > > -Jason > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>[ > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of mike Bowser > Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM > > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > RE: Herbal Pharmacology > > John, > > You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. > So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews > posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as > well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> < > johnkokko%40gmail.com <johnkokko%2540gmail.com>> > Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > > I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff > > notes " addition of TCM > > and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in > > China, > > that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not > > obligatory there. > > So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, > Korea or > > Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have > > a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in > > between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as > > well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, > > SHZBL or Wen bing. > > One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " > > version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the > > DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be > considered > > the " cliff notes " version. > > Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin > > gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This > > is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels > like > > a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. > > Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? > > I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the > > " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). > > K > > 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine>< > %40Chinese Medicine <%2540Chinese Medicine>> > > > > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes > (in > > > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > > > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. > SHL > > > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > > > > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? > Obviously > > > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should > not > > > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM > education > > > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > > > > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > > > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > > > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, > fu > > > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > > > versions of these texts. > > > > > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine > is > > > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > > > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > > > perception? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > > On Behalf Of john > > > kokko > > > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>< > Chinese Medicine%40<Chinese Medicine%2540\ >> > <Chinese Medicine%40> > > > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > > > > Jason, > > > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > > > version, > > > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > > > > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between > classical > > > medicine > > > and traditional medicine? > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "" > > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Jason, Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with Arnaud and others. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the higher levels available. Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course. Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Herbal Pharmacology John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> > > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 That is why I referred to Heiner's interviews on this topic. I trust his understanding of the situation. It sounds like Taiwan has a strong program. As Taiwan is not part of China, does anyone know about how these two country's OM education varies? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine fuentes120 Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:29:56 -0700 RE: Herbal Pharmacology I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU, Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools, Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these students go thru. Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do. My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Chinese Traditional Medicine Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.turtleclinic. com www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Stephen, yes... the second round of taking Arnaud's courses are bringing a lot of things together and helping out tremendously with clinical work. Jason, I agree that one could spend their whole life learning one current in the ocean of Chinese medicine. When I said that TCM study is like reading " cliff notes " , I meant what we get in the US, not in China per se. I didn't study in China, so maybe people who did can relay their experiences. I do know that the Chinese have less of a problem memorizing than we do here in America, but it is in their language, isn't it? Allopathic medicine is Latin / English-based. When people in other countries learn allopathic medicine, do they learn the Latin/ English terms? That seems fair, since that is the universal tongue for that medical language. Anyone anywhere can read the whole novel, but it seems in the US anyway, many people want the short-cut. That's what the whole discussion about the FPD is about. To me, 4000 hours from point zero of Chinese medicine ( " what is Qi, xue, jing, yin, yang?) to getting a doctorate in this profound field is minimal. Isn't there a 10,000 hour rule? ... it takes 10,000 hours of dedicated study/practice to master something. K On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 10:27 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote: > > > Jason: > > When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of > actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. > > Stephen: > That weekend was just an intro to theory and not indicative of > the quantity of information nor the intensity of the lectures in > Arnaud's advanced training course. Kokko has pointed out the > correct amount of lecture and there is an expectation of about > 45-60 hours of study per month to go with the 15 hours of > lecture. > > There is now a clnical training portion for those who have gotten > deep enough into the didactics. Really impressive results! > > > Stephen Woodley LAc > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software > or over the web > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Gabe, Always good to hear from you. ... as you've pointed out, there are rigorous programs in the classics in Taiwan and China. I know, for example, Feng Ye, who co-compiled the Practical Dictionary of CM with Nigel Wiseman, has basically memorized the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue and written great commentaries. However, from your perspective, how has this translated out into clinical practice on the mainland, especially acupuncture/moxa? Much of what gets into the Chinese journals or over here is rather formulaic. We are just at the beginning of the Chinese medicine phenomenon in the West, and I for one am concerned that we are able to keep the branches connected to the trunk and roots of the tree, otherwise I fear we will become like osteopathy, where only a minority actually practice according to the original principles of that discipline, and basically practice biomedicine. On Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote: > I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU, Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools, Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these students go thru. > Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do. > My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes > > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 > RE: Herbal Pharmacology > Chinese Traditional Medicine > Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM > > > > John, > > You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com > Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > > I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff > > notes " addition of TCM > > and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in > > China, > > that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not > > obligatory there. > > So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or > > Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have > > a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in > > between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as > > well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, > > SHZBL or Wen bing. > > One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " > > version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the > > DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered > > the " cliff notes " version. > > Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin > > gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This > > is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like > > a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. > > Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? > > I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the > > " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). > > K > > 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > > > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > > > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > > > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > > > > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > > > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > > > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > > > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > > > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > > > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > > > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > > > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > > > versions of these texts. > > > > > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > > > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > > > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > > > perception? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>] > > > On Behalf Of john > > > kokko > > > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > > > > Jason, > > > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > > > version, > > > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > > > > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > > > medicine > > > and traditional medicine? > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "" > > www.turtleclinic. com > > www.tcmreview. com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Hi Gabriel, I totally agree with your rejection of the insulting idea that rote learning in asia leads to some kind of particularly asian stupidity. Rote learning is an essential requirement for maintaining the integrity of our medicine. One of the reasons we see so much (confused) mish-mash in Chinese Medicine in western countries is because of our lack of rote (and therefore solid and instantaneous recall in) memorisation.  I think I may disagree with your comment about english speaking websites/classical CM dying: Heiner Fruehauf, as an example, is a fully fledged scholar physician who claims that the core health of classical CM is not great. Certain highly placed Chinese nationals agree as well. Both my teachers are in agreement about this as well.  While I am always encouraged to hear that programs such as the one you mention are so rigorous, we need more than that to preserve the health of our medicine.  Your thoughts?  Hugo  ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.middlemedicine.org ________________________________ Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120 Chinese Medicine Thu, 29 April, 2010 12:29:56 RE: Herbal Pharmacology  Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do. My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> wrote: mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@ hotmail.com> RE: Herbal Pharmacology traditional_ chinese_medicine Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM  John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 <@chineseme d icinedoc. com> > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > [Traditional _ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.turtleclinic. com www.tcmreview. com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Ok.. I agree 100%... -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko When I said that TCM study is like reading " cliff notes " , I meant what we get in the US, not in China per se. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 I second Z’ev’s concern. However there are people doing all sorts of things on China. Take Huang Huang for example. If you look and can read Chinese you can find anything you want. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:57 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Pharmacology Gabe, Always good to hear from you. ... as you've pointed out, there are rigorous programs in the classics in Taiwan and China. I know, for example, Feng Ye, who co-compiled the Practical Dictionary of CM with Nigel Wiseman, has basically memorized the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue and written great commentaries. However, from your perspective, how has this translated out into clinical practice on the mainland, especially acupuncture/moxa? Much of what gets into the Chinese journals or over here is rather formulaic. We are just at the beginning of the Chinese medicine phenomenon in the West, and I for one am concerned that we are able to keep the branches connected to the trunk and roots of the tree, otherwise I fear we will become like osteopathy, where only a minority actually practice according to the original principles of that discipline, and basically practice biomedicine. On Apr 29, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Gabriel Fuentes wrote: > I would like to say a few things about the Chinese medicine program at CMU, Taiwan. There are two tracts for students, one is the post baccalaureate program and the other is the regular 7 year bachelors program, or 8 year combined western and program. And yes you only get a bachelors degree after 8 years! If you do a search on the internet for CMU’s curriculum you will see that all the classics are covered and when I say classics I mean the Huandi Neijing, SHL, JGYL, Wenbing. The classes are grueling, and the exams are insane. I’m sure if the same requirements were implemented in US schools, Students would revolt. My education was not anything compared to what these students go thru. > Not only are they exposed to Classics in the classroom, but also in the different Chinese medicine clubs. They have clubs for just about every topic and they also invite great scholars to come and lecture. And yes these young kids memorize and know by heart many chapters some even memorize complete books, and I hope I don’t get this “pathetic†typical western reply that Chinese students memorize but they can’t articulate or employ what they memorize. As far as English Speaking websites that say that classics are dead in China, maybe is true of China, well I would not put to much stock unless you have a very broad perspective of the situation which I have to say not many westerners do. > My 2 centsGabriel Fuentes > > --- On Thu, 4/29/10, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> > wrote: > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com> > > RE: Herbal Pharmacology > Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> > Thursday, April 29, 2010, 10:24 AM > > > > John, > > You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com > Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > > I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff > > notes " addition of TCM > > and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in > > China, > > that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not > > obligatory there. > > So, the potential is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or > > Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have > > a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in > > between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as > > well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, > > SHZBL or Wen bing. > > One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " > > version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the > > DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered > > the " cliff notes " version. > > Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin > > gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This > > is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like > > a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. > > Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? > > I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the > > " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). > > K > > 2010/4/29 <@chinesemed icinedoc. com> > > > > > > > > > K, > > > > > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > > > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > > > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > > > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > > > > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > > > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > > > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > > > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > > > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > > > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > > > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > > > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > > > versions of these texts. > > > > > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > > > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > > > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > > > perception? > > > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > > > > Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com>] > > > On Behalf Of john > > > kokko > > > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > > > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > > > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > > > > Jason, > > > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > > > version, > > > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > > > > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > > > medicine > > > and traditional medicine? > > > > > > K > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "" > > www.turtleclinic. com > > www.tcmreview. com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Mike, At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover. Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL. That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads... -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with Arnaud and others. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <%40Chinese Medicine> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the higher levels available. Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course. Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. -Jason Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> RE: Herbal Pharmacology John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine> > > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 I have to say you have some very interesting ideas. Answer me this, who came up with the theory of relativity? Oh wait, don't they also call it " the Einstein theory of relativity " ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Mercurius Trismegistus Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:28 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Herbal Pharmacology You can adjust electro-acupuncture machines. But you can't tune in (or program) specific frequencies like you can on a Rife machine or an Electroherbalism machine. I'm not saying his wife was " the " real physicist. I have no idea about that. I'm saying that she was " a " real physicist. Einstein was a patent clerk who failed math. Everyone says, " He didn't do physics as well as anyone, but he just throught more creatively. " LOL. Please. http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/ http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/index.htm Like I stated before. Einstein had alot of good things to say. But his theories weren't one of them. Nor were they orginal ideas. - " " <johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > <Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:44 AM Re: Herbal Pharmacology > Mercurius, > > ...they already have that. It's called electro-acupuncture machines. > There are also voll and vega test units. > and acu-pointers. > > I'm still perplexed about the Einstein comment. > Do you have evidence that his wife was the real physicist? > and that he was not the genius that the whole world has declared? > What't the name of the documentary you stated ? > > > K > > > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net> > wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Yes there is a lot to learn but many of us have agreed that our master program was not taught at that level rigor. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:28:53 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Mike, At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover. Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL. That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads... -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with Arnaud and others. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <%40Chinese Medicine> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the higher levels available. Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course. Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. -Jason Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> RE: Herbal Pharmacology John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine> > > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Yes, I agree. Our programs in the states need an upgrade. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:36 PM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Herbal Pharmacology Yes there is a lot to learn but many of us have agreed that our master program was not taught at that level rigor. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <%40Chinese Medicine> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:28:53 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Mike, At the Beginning of a curriculum it is not reasonable to spend a great deal of time studying classical texts. There is just way too much material to cover. Furthermore, I think studying classical texts is not the only thing of importance. Pre-modern texts, modern physicians, Western medical integration, or preparations, biomedicine, pharmacology, etc. etc. are all important topics and should be given equal weight. In the upper-level part of the curriculum one can choose to focus on whatever they like. Honestly, you can practice a very high level medicine without spending all your time studying something like the SHL. That is the beauty of TCM, there are many roads... -Jason Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:27 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> RE: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, Actually the issue of what they are studying is my main point. Just because it is available does not appear to be a focus for many, we need to understand why classical studies are so important as a profession. If about half are choosing to undertake some courses, that is great, but really falls far short of accessing the deeper levels. It sounds like they are struggling to see the importance of the classics. I will do my best to get some scholarly study, with Arnaud and others. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:38:59 -0600 RE: Herbal Pharmacology Yes they are having a crisis as well! But they also have much more opportunity to study deeply, if one likes. TCM / CM is very broad and one can study and learn what they like. If you like biomedical integration than that is available. If you want to focus on warm disease then that is available. IMO, it is all TCM. But yes probably around 50% do not undertake further deep study and never practice. But that is besides the point. Of course in the beginning of the curriculum there will only be a few classes on classics. It may present cliff notes (as they should), how could it now be? But we should not confuse basic curriculums with the full scope of TCM and the higher levels available. Just for the record, if one takes 15 weeks of SHL (3 hours a class) that is 45 hours in a basic curriculum. If one specializes in SHL one would easily rack up 150+ hours. And this is not just listening to someone rant for 6 hours, but intense lectures with tests and a thesis paper required. There really is a big difference between something like this and some CEU weekend course. Actually when I was at PCOM (MS), I took a SHL class (outside of school) for around 45 hours. A Warm disease class 45 hours and JGYL class for 45 hours. Just because the DAOM program doesn’t have this, does not mean TCM does not value it. It is only reflective of the program. BTW, When I studied with Arnaud, 1 weekend was about 11 hours of actual class. At 9 weeks that is about 100 hours. -Jason Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> ] On Behalf Of mike Bowser Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40> RE: Herbal Pharmacology John, You mention that it is optional to take more in-depth courses in classics. So how many Asian trained practitioners actually do this? From interviews posted on Heiner Fruehauf's website, it appears that this is uncommon as well. Is China not also having a crisis in CM education? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> <johnkokko%40gmail.com> Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:02:51 -0500 Re: Herbal Pharmacology Jason, I agree that what we learn in the states in the MS program is the " cliff notes " addition of TCM and from what I've heard from those who did the Masters or PhD programs in China, that one can choose to study the classics in depth, but this is not obligatory there. So, the potenti, oftenal is there in the institutional education in China, Korea or Taiwan, but is not really available at the schools here in the US. We have a few CEUs here in the US. that go deep into the classics, but very few in between. In the US and what I've heard from those who studied in China as well, most people only take one or two classes in the Nei jing, Nan jing, SHZBL or Wen bing. One or two classes in these classes can be considered the " cliff notes " version of a whole system, as you described with the Wen bing. Even in the DAOM programs, 3 days (24 hours) of class time for the SHL can be considered the " cliff notes " version. Arnaud Versluys teaches 9 weekends for the SHL and 5 weekends for the Jin gui in his current program (135 hours for SHL), (75 hours for JGYL). This is over 5 times the class hours of the DAOM program, yet it still feels like a minimum of 4 solid years are required to really understand ZZJ's work. Do you teach Wen Bing classes as CEUs? I don't see that really taught anywhere here in the states (except for the " cliff notes " class taught at some lucky schools). K 2010/4/29 < <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine> > > > > K, > > Yes TCM starts out with the cliff notes, for example, in early classes (in > TCM training) they give summaries of e.g. 6 stages for SHL. However in > advanced classes, Chinese universities do full classes in classics e.g. SHL > / JGYL. Actually don't many US classes also do this? > > Do we think that TCM doctors (in China) only get the cliff notes? Obviously > some that only complete 4 years will not be as fully trained. We should not > compare our limited ungrad educations with the full scope of TCM education > in China, especially at the higher levels. For example if you look at the > textbook Warm Disease Theory (wen bing xue, 温病å¦ï¼‰by ren min wei sheng > publisher you will notice that there are around 30 warm disease classic > texts contained within it (such as wen bing tiao bian, shi re bing pian, fu > xie xin shu, shang han wen yi tiao bian etc). We just don't have English > versions of these texts. > > Therefore to think that TCM is just some simplified cliff note medicine is > IMO to misunderstand what it is about and its real potential. So I don't > understand what you mean by without the poetry. Maybe this is an English > perception? > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:40 PM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > Jason, > Yes... TCM is a summary of the classics, kind of like the " cliff notes " > version, > without the poetry but still informed by the classics. > > This points to a larger question... what's the difference between classical > medicine > and traditional medicine? > > K > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 Isn't physics about marrying mathematics with the physical world? How is Einstein not a " real physicist " , but his wife was? Is this a joke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 You guys are on to something now! This has been my biggest complaint with the " purists. " These folks want to practice the medicine, unchanged, as it existed 4 or 500 or more years ago. That is so sad, and really cheats the patient. This is also unethical. Do you not think Hau Tuo or any of the other ancient masters would not have used the modern diagnostics and technology if they had had access to them? Of course they would. That's how the Wen Bing came about. Diseases changed so they adapted with the changes and they found medicine to adapt to those changes. Look at modern e'stim. I'll bet the " purists " that use this group also use e'stim. But of course, that's ok for some reason. Look at metal needles, would you go back to using stone or bone? Of course not. Now permit me to explain why I think the purists are " unintentianally " unethical. Let's say that a patient comes to your office with an incurable disease, say sarcoidosis. They have horrible lesions covering their body, their hair is falling out in clumps because the lesions are in their scalp (these lesions resemble raw hamburger), and they are on oxygen because these lesions have attacked their lungs. Now as an AOM practitioner you use herbal medicine, acupuncture, and any other traditional tools with no avail. The patient is getting worse and will probably die within the year. Now you (the practitioner) retired from the US military and you worked in Research and development for a few years. You remember something about a Russian scientist that came out with a medical device based on oriental medical theory that is being used successfully in their space program. Problem is, the technology was top secret and the US government has never been able to steel this tecnology. Now you hear that it is no longer top secret and can be bought on the open market since their lead scientist was able to obtain a patent. Now you buy this device at great expense. And you use it on this dying patient that has sarcoidosis. In two weeks that patient notices her hair growing back and the lesions going away (without a scar!). After 6 weeks that patient no longer needs oxygen. Three years later and the patient still has not had a relapse and two others have been treated with the same response. Now the " purists " don't want me to use this equipment, and the MD's sure wont use it. So I stop using it and patients begin to die. Am I not unethical for not using something I know would work because I want to keep my medicine " pure? " I tell you the truth, if that patient dies and I have the knowledge to save them and don't. I'm as guilty as if I had put a gun to their head and pulled the trigger. Our medicine is medicine and it is a living thing that changes and adapts to whatever works and whatever changes in disease. If we stay " pure " , we are killing this living medicine. Just my two cents, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:39:24 -0700 Re: Herbal Pharmacology This is true. Do you think the ancients never innovated? Did they only do what was done thousands of years before. (I think some of the people are just mad at me for calling into question the nature of the 6 year Masters degree.) - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:37 AM RE: Herbal Pharmacology > > So how do we justify usage of estim, pachi-pachi or ion pumping cords? > Are these not based, more or less, on modern concepts? > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > marthacooleylac > Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:23:58 -0700 > Re: Herbal Pharmacology> Electroherbalism!?!?!?!?!?! > > I thought we were supposed to be practicing Chinese medicine!!!!! > > > > Call me a purist, but these post-modern therapies only serve to distort > our patients' vision of what Chinese medicine is. > > Also, i would go farther and argue that for us to call on these modalities > undermines the trust that we have in ourselves and our medicine, and can > become an excuse to look elsewhere instead of digging deeeper and studying > more. > > > > The great beauty of Chinese medicine is that it is an ecological medicine, > with a theory based on the obeservation of natural rythms. The great > challenge of the doctor is to see and interpret these and their > reverberations into patients. > > > > To use electric devices, separates us from our patients in the very place > where we need to make a connection: by the careful crafting of a formula, > by touch, by meditation. > > And the neologism 'electro-herbalism' is just plain wrong... i want > nothing to do with it. Herbs are Wood drawing Water up to Fire, producing > steam that rains onto the Earth and goes back down to Water... they should > have nothing to do with EMF's... > > > > If you are getting great results, great... but i certainly hope you are > not advertizing this as Chinese medicine?!?! > > > > ________________________________ > > Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum > > Chinese Medicine > > Wed, April 28, 2010 10:19:37 PM > > Re: Herbal Pharmacology > > > > > > I'd love to try a Scenar. I've had amazing success with electroherbalism. > > www.electroherbalis m.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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