RE: Herbal Pharmacology - Chinese Lang

[Guest guest]

I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion (about

education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of Chinese

language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an essential

skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed him for a day,

or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts and material they

want for the rest of their life.

 

 

 

Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there is not

much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that). Well, this really

speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not actually have access the

material it is studying.

 

 

 

How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can we

understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few classical texts

translated? How can we research difficult cases properly? Do we consider

Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our programs, no matter what

anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Johnkokko

Monday, April 26, 2010 9:58 PM

Chinese Medicine

Cc: <Chinese Medicine >

Re: Herbal Pharmacology

 

 

 

 

 

In your opinion one thing is important

To another person another thing is important.

I think that herb-drug interactions are worth

A class in a masters program.

But really how important is it to know all of the chemicals

Inside of each herb since we don't treat patients

Based on this kind of info?

I think the classical literature is more informative

In this regard since it's the cumulative knowledge

Of thousands of practitioners speaking the same language,

While biomedicines understanding of Chinese herbology is relatively

Minute and absolutely experimental.

 

K

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:21 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> wrote:

 

> So if we want to find some additional curriculum, other than

> classical Chinese literature and extra intern hours, how about a

> curriculum on herbal pharmacology?

> This is something I know for a fact that people are interested in,

> and imo, it's much more relevant than Chinese literature. Any

> thoughts?

>

>

[Guest guest]

PCOM has a good Chinese language component to the doctorate, taught by Sonya

Pritzker and Bob Damone, but ideally Chinese language study should begin right

at the beginning of the program. Your point on research papers is well taken,

if only English language sources are used, what we get is highly speculative and

not reflective of the actual field in Asian countries, where a vast majority of

the medicine is still practiced.

 

 

On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:09 AM, wrote:

 

> I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion (about

education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of Chinese

language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an essential

skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed him for a day,

or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts and material they

want for the rest of their life.

>

> Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there is

not much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that). Well, this

really speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not actually have

access the material it is studying.

>

> How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can we

understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few classical texts

translated? How can we research difficult cases properly? Do we consider

Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our programs, no matter what

anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Johnkokko

> Monday, April 26, 2010 9:58 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Cc: <Chinese Medicine >

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> In your opinion one thing is important

> To another person another thing is important.

> I think that herb-drug interactions are worth

> A class in a masters program.

> But really how important is it to know all of the chemicals

> Inside of each herb since we don't treat patients

> Based on this kind of info?

> I think the classical literature is more informative

> In this regard since it's the cumulative knowledge

> Of thousands of practitioners speaking the same language,

> While biomedicines understanding of Chinese herbology is relatively

> Minute and absolutely experimental.

>

> K

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:21 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> > wrote:

>

> > So if we want to find some additional curriculum, other than

> > classical Chinese literature and extra intern hours, how about a

> > curriculum on herbal pharmacology?

> > This is something I know for a fact that people are interested in,

> > and imo, it's much more relevant than Chinese literature. Any

> > thoughts?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I have been offered the DAOM for free and discounted rates as faculty but I

couldn't see doing it without reading Chinese. At this point, slowly trying I

just might take them up on it and continue the reading later.

That being said, several decades ago I asked my father about his language

requirements for his PhD in biology. At the time German was the standard

scientific language and he said with a little help it fit well with English and

his teachers walked him through the requirement.

Wish it were so with Chinese.

Doug

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

> I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion (about

education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of Chinese

language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an essential

skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed him for a day,

or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts and material they

want for the rest of their life.

>

>

>

> Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there is

not much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that). Well, this

really speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not actually have

access the material it is studying.

>

>

>

> How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can we

understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few classical texts

translated? How can we research difficult cases properly? Do we consider

Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our programs, no matter what

anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Johnkokko

> Monday, April 26, 2010 9:58 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Cc: <Chinese Medicine >

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

>

>

>

>

> In your opinion one thing is important

> To another person another thing is important.

> I think that herb-drug interactions are worth

> A class in a masters program.

> But really how important is it to know all of the chemicals

> Inside of each herb since we don't treat patients

> Based on this kind of info?

> I think the classical literature is more informative

> In this regard since it's the cumulative knowledge

> Of thousands of practitioners speaking the same language,

> While biomedicines understanding of Chinese herbology is relatively

> Minute and absolutely experimental.

>

> K

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:21 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum

<magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> > wrote:

>

> > So if we want to find some additional curriculum, other than

> > classical Chinese literature and extra intern hours, how about a

> > curriculum on herbal pharmacology?

> > This is something I know for a fact that people are interested in,

> > and imo, it's much more relevant than Chinese literature. Any

> > thoughts?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Doug is right. I was told back in 50s 60s, all arts major are required to master

2 foreign languages in China. It was elite system. Only two or three decades

ago, going to college (less than 1% of high school graduates) was so uncommon

that you could have feasts for a few days.

 

But if we want to make use the language for the rest of our career, a couple of

years of full time commitment may be minimum. I wonder how many potential CM

students will commit. Believe me, there are no common grounds (spelling,

prefix,etc) between English and Chinese.

 

Let's take a look at Japanese experiences. They learnt sophisicated knowhow fr

other industralized countries by having a team of excellent translators. By the

same token, if we have a set of Chinese medicine textbooks, that is more

efficient and pramatic. It is best for the students who won't go to China for CM

education, At least they know they learn the same stuff as their Chinese

colleagues.

 

A little more information about the textbooks for Chinese medicine students in

China. They have the same textbooks from coast to coast. All the contents are

discussed and edited by the professors from the

selected tcm universities.

 

I remember when I was a Jin Gui Yao Lue major in my master program, the

conference for praparing a Jin Gui textbook (for graduate students) was

conducted in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, because my mentor is the

chief-in-editor. All selected (around a dozen) scholars from other tcm

universities came to Chengdu and had the conference. It is like all 20

top-ranking universities in say, Professors from Harvard, Yale, Stanford,

Princeton, UCLA, Columbia, Caltec,USC etcs joined together to edit a college

text, instead of individuals. All ambiguious/difficult contents were discussed

and consensus were reached. Therefore, it pretty represents the viewpoints of

the contemporary scholars in this specialty.

 

May be the standardized texts helps a bit for local TCM education.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

No one ever said they knew it all. All I said was that the Masters degree

contains the entire curriculum. If you want to do literary studies and

translations, that's great, but that's not TCM. Somehow we are still able

to treat people effectively, even without modern English translations of

many ancient works.

To learn Western medicine, must one know English?

 

 

 

 

 

-

" "

<Chinese Medicine >

Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:09 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology -> Chinese Lang

 

 

>I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion

>(about education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of

>Chinese language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an

>essential skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed

>him for a day, or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts

>and material they want for the rest of their life.

> Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there

> is not much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that).

> Well, this really speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not

> actually have access the material it is studying.

> How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can

> we understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few

> classical texts translated? How can we research difficult cases properly?

> Do we consider Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our

> programs, no matter what anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

> -

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

This is great to hear, PCOM seems to be at the forefront on this issue. I

would like to hear more about PCOM's approach. Do they require that everyone

takes these classes, or are they electives? If electives, how many students

are signing up? Do they teach Chinese classes all the way through the

program? I assume they are focusing on reading/translating. What kind of

material are they using?

 

We definitely need to see Chinese language start at the Masters level, maybe

looking at SIOM for guidance. Then, at the post graduate level, students

will be able to search Chinese journals and read classical texts for their

research ideas and papers.

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:03 AM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology -> Chinese Lang

 

PCOM has a good Chinese language component to the doctorate, taught by Sonya

Pritzker and Bob Damone, but ideally Chinese language study should begin

right at the beginning of the program. Your point on research papers is

well taken, if only English language sources are used, what we get is highly

speculative and not reflective of the actual field in Asian countries, where

a vast majority of the medicine is still practiced.

 

 

On Apr 27, 2010, at 5:09 AM, wrote:

 

> I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion

(about education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of

Chinese language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an

essential skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed

him for a day, or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts

and material they want for the rest of their life.

>

> Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there

is not much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that). Well,

this really speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not actually

have access the material it is studying.

>

> How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can

we understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few

classical texts translated? How can we research difficult cases properly? Do

we consider Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our programs,

no matter what anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

>

> -

>

> Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Johnkokko

> Monday, April 26, 2010 9:58 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Cc: <Chinese Medicine >

> Re: Herbal Pharmacology

>

> In your opinion one thing is important

> To another person another thing is important.

> I think that herb-drug interactions are worth

> A class in a masters program.

> But really how important is it to know all of the chemicals

> Inside of each herb since we don't treat patients

> Based on this kind of info?

> I think the classical literature is more informative

> In this regard since it's the cumulative knowledge

> Of thousands of practitioners speaking the same language,

> While biomedicines understanding of Chinese herbology is relatively

> Minute and absolutely experimental.

>

> K

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On Apr 26, 2010, at 11:21 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum <magisterium_magnum%40comcast.net>

> > wrote:

>

> > So if we want to find some additional curriculum, other than

> > classical Chinese literature and extra intern hours, how about a

> > curriculum on herbal pharmacology?

> > This is something I know for a fact that people are interested in,

> > and imo, it's much more relevant than Chinese literature. Any

> > thoughts?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

MT said, a “Masters degree contains the entire curriculumâ€

 

 

 

[Jason] Do you have any idea of how ridiculous that sounds? The entire

curriculum? Clearly you have not been exposed to the vast amount of material

that is available in Chinese...

 

 

 

And yes I think it is the gold standard to know English when you study Western

medicine.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Mercurius

Trismegistus

Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:48 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: Herbal Pharmacology -> Chinese Lang

 

 

 

 

 

No one ever said they knew it all. All I said was that the Masters degree

contains the entire curriculum. If you want to do literary studies and

translations, that's great, but that's not TCM. Somehow we are still able

to treat people effectively, even without modern English translations of

many ancient works.

To learn Western medicine, must one know English?

 

-

" " <

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

<Chinese Medicine

<Chinese Medicine%40> >

Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:09 AM

RE: Herbal Pharmacology -> Chinese Lang

 

>I agree with John here. Also I find it interesting in this discussion

>(about education and rigor etc.) that no one is stressing the importance of

>Chinese language. With much less than 1% of texts translated, I find it an

>essential skill to teach students. You can give a student a fish and feed

>him for a day, or teach them to fish and then they can access all the texts

>and material they want for the rest of their life.

> Someone made a comment a while back that we have learned it all so there

> is not much left for the Post-grad programs (or something like that).

> Well, this really speaks to the limitations of a profession that does not

> actually have access the material it is studying.

> How can we write research papers if we cannot read the journals? How can

> we understand the past ideas and treatments when we have only a few

> classical texts translated? How can we research difficult cases properly?

> Do we consider Maciocia a primary source text? Without this step, our

> programs, no matter what anyone thinks, will be capped at a certain level.

> -

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, the Chinese language courses are in the

doctorate, not yet the masters. Several students however are taking electives

for medical Chinese in the masters. The only classics course per se is my Shang

Han Lun/Wen Bing course. I continue to lobby for this, in fact there is a focus

group in two weeks for which I will prepare my argument for teaching medical

Chinese from the beginning. As you pointed out, it is impossible to do real

research without Chinese language skills.

 

Z'ev

On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:18 AM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

>

> This is great to hear, PCOM seems to be at the forefront on this issue. I

> would like to hear more about PCOM's approach. Do they require that everyone

> takes these classes, or are they electives? If electives, how many students

> are signing up? Do they teach Chinese classes all the way through the

> program? I assume they are focusing on reading/translating. What kind of

> material are they using?

>

> We definitely need to see Chinese language start at the Masters level, maybe

> looking at SIOM for guidance. Then, at the post graduate level, students

> will be able to search Chinese journals and read classical texts for their

> research ideas and papers.

>

> -Jason

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev-

 

What is the focus group? I would gladly lend my $0.02 for the fight for more

Chinese language skill development and courses in the classics in the Masters

program.

 

-Steve

 

On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:08 AM, wrote:

 

> Jason,

> Sorry for the misunderstanding, the Chinese language courses are in the

doctorate, not yet the masters. Several students however are taking electives

for medical Chinese in the masters. The only classics course per se is my Shang

Han Lun/Wen Bing course. I continue to lobby for this, in fact there is a focus

group in two weeks for which I will prepare my argument for teaching medical

Chinese from the beginning. As you pointed out, it is impossible to do real

research without Chinese language skills.

>

> Z'ev

> On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:18 AM, wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > This is great to hear, PCOM seems to be at the forefront on this issue. I

> > would like to hear more about PCOM's approach. Do they require that everyone

> > takes these classes, or are they electives? If electives, how many students

> > are signing up? Do they teach Chinese classes all the way through the

> > program? I assume they are focusing on reading/translating. What kind of

> > material are they using?

> >

> > We definitely need to see Chinese language start at the Masters level, maybe

> > looking at SIOM for guidance. Then, at the post graduate level, students

> > will be able to search Chinese journals and read classical texts for their

> > research ideas and papers.

> >

> > -Jason

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev said

there is a focus group in two weeks for which I will prepare my argument for

teaching medical Chinese from the beginning.

 

Stephen said

I would gladly lend my $0.02 for the fight for more Chinese language skill

development and courses in the classics in the Masters program.

 

Joe sez

sounds great but

how receptive are students to the increased work load? We already see people

complaining that the " MS " is too long and too hard.

Do your students want to learn Chinese?

How much would a student be expected to know by the end of the program?

 

good luck - hope it works out!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

 

 

Are the DAOM classes taught by Bob and Sonya, electives or are they

required? Do they last throughout the whole program?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I referred to my father's generation of learning the source language

(German) for biology, remember that he said he was walked through it, meaning it

was kind of B__S___ requirement.

 

As to me, I would like to go into a doctorate having some Chinese literacy, I

find that learning Chinese is a full time study, maybe especially at my post 50

year age.

 

At any level, every bit of Chinese literacy obviously helps, but I think we can

also begin to address this through by better utilizing newer Chinese based

texts. I have expressed my admiration for the new PMPH Fundamentals " Study

Guide " as well as those newer texts out of the Academy Press.

 

I feel really hampered teaching by the " vocabulary " of Giovanni texts as well as

CAM and ACT in their simplicity. (All California State Board texts) In short,

there are increasingly more and better texts that do not require literacy but

reflect the sources better.

 

Doug

 

 

 

 

A

 

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Jason,

> Sorry for the misunderstanding, the Chinese language courses are in the

doctorate, not yet the masters. Several students however are taking electives

for medical Chinese in the masters. The only classics course per se is my Shang

Han Lun/Wen Bing course. I continue to lobby for this, in fact there is a focus

group in two weeks for which I will prepare my argument for teaching medical

Chinese from the beginning. As you pointed out, it is impossible to do real

research without Chinese language skills.

>

> Z'ev

> On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:18 AM, wrote:

>

> > Z'ev,

> >

> > This is great to hear, PCOM seems to be at the forefront on this issue. I

> > would like to hear more about PCOM's approach. Do they require that everyone

> > takes these classes, or are they electives? If electives, how many students

> > are signing up? Do they teach Chinese classes all the way through the

> > program? I assume they are focusing on reading/translating. What kind of

> > material are they using?

> >

> > We definitely need to see Chinese language start at the Masters level, maybe

> > looking at SIOM for guidance. Then, at the post graduate level, students

> > will be able to search Chinese journals and read classical texts for their

> > research ideas and papers.

> >

> > -Jason

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more, Doug. Chinese-based texts with the original Chinese, a

translation with footnotes and glossaries is the way to go at this point in

time.

 

My growth in medical Chinese has been slow but steady, also being over fifty

doesn't help. I am finding that the Pleco program for the i-phone has helped

immensely. .

 

 

On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:39 AM, wrote:

 

> When I referred to my father's generation of learning the source language

(German) for biology, remember that he said he was walked through it, meaning it

was kind of B__S___ requirement.

>

> As to me, I would like to go into a doctorate having some Chinese literacy, I

find that learning Chinese is a full time study, maybe especially at my post 50

year age.

>

> At any level, every bit of Chinese literacy obviously helps, but I think we

can also begin to address this through by better utilizing newer Chinese based

texts. I have expressed my admiration for the new PMPH Fundamentals " Study

Guide " as well as those newer texts out of the Academy Press.

>

> I feel really hampered teaching by the " vocabulary " of Giovanni texts as well

as CAM and ACT in their simplicity. (All California State Board texts) In short,

there are increasingly more and better texts that do not require literacy but

reflect the sources better.

>

> Doug

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122