Guest guest Posted May 1, 2010 Report Share Posted May 1, 2010 I've been doing more work in the area of postsurgical recovery, and one of the biggest issues patients are looking to address is the havoc that general anesthesia plays with the body. I'm looking for treatment strategy both for prepping the system for it as well as clearing the body of it after the fact. I've heard suggestions to work with the classical possession treatments (hidden dragon, etc.), which I find to be an interesting theoretical approach, as well as opening the orifices, approaching it through the San Jiao and Lung systems, etc. I'm curious to see what the group's thoughts on this might be, does anyone have any experience or insight in dealing with this? Thanks all, -Blake Beeston, Dipl.OM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from harmful chemicals. Maybe also think about : LI 4, LI 11, ST 25, LV 1 NADA auricular treatment (ear shen men, sympathetic, lung, liver, kidney) moving blood in the body after surgery: LV 4, SP 10, UB 17 eating miso soup, burdock root, nettles, milk thistle (check pharmaceutical contraindications) drinking plenty of fluids yunnan pai yao, jin gu die sheng wan .... K On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 3:31 AM, Blake Beeston <bmbeestone wrote: > > > > I've been doing more work in the area of postsurgical recovery, and > one of the biggest issues patients are looking to address is the havoc > that general anesthesia plays with the body. I'm looking for treatment > strategy both for prepping the system for it as well as clearing the > body of it after the fact. I've heard suggestions to work with the > classical possession treatments (hidden dragon, etc.), which I find to > be an interesting theoretical approach, as well as opening the orifices, > approaching it through the San Jiao and Lung systems, etc. I'm curious > to see what the group's thoughts on this might be, does > anyone have any experience or insight in dealing with this? > > Thanks > all, > > -Blake Beeston, Dipl.OM > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 K, Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been verified? Seems a little odd... -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Anesthesia recovery In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from harmful chemicals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Yes, general anesthesia does wreak havoc with people. I do mostly Balance Method tx's. I really like tapping for Aggressive Energy post-op. I have a patient that had 3 surgeries last October and 1 in February. Only 2 involved general. The hip repair and reverse total shoulder replacement were the ones that didn't involve general! They used an epidural for the hip and scaline intrathecal for the shoulder, during the surgery and for about 2 days after. The difference in recovery w/ nerve blocks instead of general is amazing. Fewer surgeons operate this way, it's a matter of knowing who they are and directing patients their direction when we're able. The other key is to use the surgeon who works faster. Risk-wise, this patient's not exactly a good surgical candidate, having a reduced respiratory capacity, less than 50% d/t hemi-diaphragmatic paralysis. Many surgeons wouldn't have done her shoulder, a very major surgery, at all. This doc also did it in under 3 hours and many doc's take 4 for the same procedure. For most patients, that would mean another hour of general anesthesia. Pain is Normal - Be Weird! J. Lynn Detamore, MS, L.Ac. Licensed Acupuncturist Reiki Practitioner PO Box 14, Sheridan, OR 97378 503.474.8876 lynndetamore ~ Doing Better Than I Deserve ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Jason, Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification point. Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, eczema etc. It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. ....Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other skin problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison oak... but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. K On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > wrote: > > > K, > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > verified? > Seems a little odd... > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > harmful > chemicals. > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Worsley's Agressive Energy treatment is great for recovering from anesthesia. I use it on my patients and I have had it myself. I listed the protocol on an email in the last month - but cannot seem to locate it. It is basically the Yin Back Shu points, Bl 13, 14, (do 15 last), 18, 20, 23. Right to left, even with needles hanging a bit. 20 mins minimum. Ideal to wait until redness clears. May have to do more than once. I do this a lot for any mental chaos and it is great for anesthia clearing. Anne Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com - " J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore " Traditional " <Chinese Medicine > Sunday, May 2, 2010 10:55:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern  Re: Anesthesia Recovery  Yes, general anesthesia does wreak havoc with people. I do mostly Balance Method tx's. I really like tapping for Aggressive Energy post-op. I have a patient that had 3 surgeries last October and 1 in February. Only 2 involved general. The hip repair and reverse total shoulder replacement were the ones that didn't involve general! They used an epidural for the hip and scaline intrathecal for the shoulder, during the surgery and for about 2 days after. The difference in recovery w/ nerve blocks instead of general is amazing. Fewer surgeons operate this way, it's a matter of knowing who they are and directing patients their direction when we're able. The other key is to use the surgeon who works faster. Risk-wise, this patient's not exactly a good surgical candidate, having a reduced respiratory capacity, less than 50% d/t hemi-diaphragmatic paralysis. Many surgeons wouldn't have done her shoulder, a very major surgery, at all. This doc also did it in under 3 hours and many doc's take 4 for the same procedure. For most patients, that would mean another hour of general anesthesia. Pain is Normal - Be Weird! J. Lynn Detamore, MS, L.Ac. Licensed Acupuncturist Reiki Practitioner PO Box 14, Sheridan, OR 97378 503.474.8876 lynndetamore ~ Doing Better Than I Deserve ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 I remember hearing that the 4 gates with Yin tang and Du 20 is also helpful to bring people back to sync... balanced state... time / space. Sounds like the AE treatment balances out the 5 zang. More explanation? K On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Anne Crowley <anne.crowleywrote: > > > > > Worsley's Agressive Energy treatment is great for recovering from > anesthesia. I use it on my patients and I have had it myself. > > I listed the protocol on an email in the last month - but cannot seem to > locate it. It is basically the Yin Back Shu points, Bl 13, 14, (do 15 > last), 18, 20, 23. Right to left, even with needles hanging a bit. 20 mins > minimum. Ideal to wait until redness clears. May have to do more than > once. I do this a lot for any mental chaos and it is great for anesthia > clearing. > > Anne > > Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., Dipl.Ac. > www.LaPlataAcupuncture.com > > - > " J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore<lynndetamore%40>> > > " Traditional " < > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>> > > Sunday, May 2, 2010 10:55:51 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Re: Anesthesia Recovery > > > > Yes, general anesthesia does wreak havoc with people. I do mostly Balance > Method tx's. I really like tapping for Aggressive Energy post-op. > > I have a patient that had 3 surgeries last October and 1 in February. Only > 2 involved general. The hip repair and reverse total shoulder replacement > were the ones that didn't involve general! They used an epidural for the hip > and scaline intrathecal for the shoulder, during the surgery and for about 2 > days after. The difference in recovery w/ nerve blocks instead of general is > amazing. Fewer surgeons operate this way, it's a matter of knowing who they > are > and directing patients their direction when we're able. The other key is to > use the surgeon who works faster. > > Risk-wise, this patient's not exactly a good surgical candidate, having a > reduced respiratory capacity, less than 50% d/t hemi-diaphragmatic > paralysis. Many surgeons wouldn't have done her shoulder, a very major > surgery, at all. This doc also did it in under 3 hours and many doc's take 4 > for the same procedure. For most patients, that would mean another hour of > general anesthesia. > > Pain is Normal - Be Weird! > > J. Lynn Detamore, MS, L.Ac. > Licensed Acupuncturist > Reiki Practitioner > > PO Box 14, Sheridan, OR 97378 > 503.474.8876 > lynndetamore <lynndetamore%40> > > ~ Doing Better Than I Deserve ~ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 K, " Detox " has a very specific Western meaning, and is much different than being good for " skin issues. " But as far as proving it is good at " detox " this is very simple with Western research, this is especially important since a Western term is used. Otherwise we should focus on CM functions, such as clears damp-heat from the skin, or clears yang ming heat etc. I still have no idea why LI15 would be chosen, there are many points good for skin problems or clearing yang-ming heat. Where has this point prescription been passed down from. Where did Kikko get it from? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john kokko Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:53 AM Chinese Medicine Re: Anesthesia recovery Jason, Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification point. Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, eczema etc. It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. ....Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other skin problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison oak... but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. K On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > wrote: > > > K, > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > verified? > Seems a little odd... > > -Jason > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Med icine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40 > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > harmful > chemicals. > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 Maybe someone can chime in on this one. I provided the quote from her clinical manual. Where did she get this from? Her teachers are Nagano, Kawai, Manaka etc. David Euler assisted in writing the manual. Since, they teach in Harvard Medical school's continuing education program, maybe they inferred this through talking with MDs? Just a guess.. Otherwise, this discussion is much bigger than KD 9 and LI 15 used for " detox " . It points to the possibility or limitations of using allopathic terminology with Chinese medicine and proving that acupuncture can function in this fashion or any other. detox [ˈdiËËŒtÉ’ks] *Informal* *n* (Medicine) treatment designed to rid the body of poisonous substances, esp alcohol and drugs *vb* (Medicine) to undergo treatment to rid the body of poisonous substances, esp alcohol and drugs [from (for sense 1) detoxification or (for sense 2) detoxicate] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/misc/HarperCollinsProducts.aspx?English> K On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 12:23 PM, < > wrote: > > > K, > > " Detox " has a very specific Western meaning, and is much different than > being good for " skin issues. " But as far as proving it is good at " detox " > this is very simple with Western research, this is especially important > since a Western term is used. Otherwise we should focus on CM functions, > such as clears damp-heat from the skin, or clears yang ming heat etc. > > I still have no idea why LI15 would be chosen, there are many points good > for skin problems or clearing yang-ming heat. Where has this point > prescription been passed down from. Where did Kikko get it from? > > -Jason > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:53 AM > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > Jason, > Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 > " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification > point. > Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, > eczema etc. > It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. > ...Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to > a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 > > According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other > skin > problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. > One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins > (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert > Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. > > This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most > acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we > believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. > I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison > oak... > but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " > point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. > > K > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > <%40Chinese Medicine>> > wrote: > > > > > > > K, > > > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > > verified? > > Seems a little odd... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40 > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40> > <Traditional_Chinese_Med > icine%40>] > > On Behalf Of john > > kokko > > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > <Chinese Medicine%40 > > > > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > > harmful > > chemicals. > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2010 Report Share Posted May 2, 2010 I usually do moxa on St. 36 for this. Doug Chinese Medicine , Anne Crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > > > Worsley's Agressive Energy treatment is great for recovering from anesthesia. I use it on my patients and I have had it myself. > > > > I listed the protocol on an email in the last month - but cannot seem to locate it. It is basically the Yin Back Shu points, Bl 13, 14, (do 15 last), 18, 20, 23. Right to left, even with needles hanging a bit. 20 mins minimum. Ideal to wait until redness clears. May have to do more than once. I do this a lot for any mental chaos and it is great for anesthia clearing. > > > > Anne > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Yes, that is right. This does brings up a bigger question. There is no debate that acupuncture can have Western effects, and in this case it is quite possibly this combination increases the body's ability in detoxification. However, unless we have some actual research, I find Kikko’s statement a bit sloppy and in the end bad for our profession. Actually, I would be quite surprised if this combination is any more effective than just treating the underlying pattern or any number of other basic points, four gates, St36 or whatever. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:19 PM Chinese Medicine Re: Anesthesia recovery Maybe someone can chime in on this one. I provided the quote from her clinical manual. Where did she get this from? Her teachers are Nagano, Kawai, Manaka etc. David Euler assisted in writing the manual. Since, they teach in Harvard Medical school's continuing education program, maybe they inferred this through talking with MDs? Just a guess.. Otherwise, this discussion is much bigger than KD 9 and LI 15 used for " detox " . It points to the possibility or limitations of using allopathic terminology with Chinese medicine and proving that acupuncture can function in this fashion or any other. detox [ˈdiËËŒtÉ’ks] *Informal* *n* (Medicine) treatment designed to rid the body of poisonous substances, esp alcohol and drugs *vb* (Medicine) to undergo treatment to rid the body of poisonous substances, esp alcohol and drugs [from (for sense 1) detoxification or (for sense 2) detoxicate] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/misc/HarperCollinsProducts.aspx?English> K On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 12:23 PM, < <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > > > K, > > " Detox " has a very specific Western meaning, and is much different than > being good for " skin issues. " But as far as proving it is good at " detox " > this is very simple with Western research, this is especially important > since a Western term is used. Otherwise we should focus on CM functions, > such as clears damp-heat from the skin, or clears yang ming heat etc. > > I still have no idea why LI15 would be chosen, there are many points good > for skin problems or clearing yang-ming heat. Where has this point > prescription been passed down from. Where did Kikko get it from? > > -Jason > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > On Behalf Of john > kokko > Sunday, May 02, 2010 9:53 AM > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > Jason, > Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 > " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification > point. > Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, > eczema etc. > It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. > ...Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to > a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 > > According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other > skin > problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. > One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins > (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert > Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. > > This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most > acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we > believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. > I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison > oak... > but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " > point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. > > K > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > <%40Chinese Medicine> <%40Chinese Medicine>> > wrote: > > > > > > > K, > > > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > > verified? > > Seems a little odd... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40 > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Traditional_Chinese_Med > icine%40>] > > On Behalf Of john > > kokko > > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > > To: > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > <Chinese Medicine%40 > > > > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > > harmful > > chemicals. > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 K, Have you considered LI 15 as a part of yang heel vessel? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine > johnkokko > Sun, 2 May 2010 10:53:24 -0500 > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > Jason, > Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 > " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification > point. > Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, > eczema etc. > It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. > ...Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to > a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 > > According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other skin > problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. > One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins > (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert > Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. > > This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most > acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we > believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. > I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison > oak... > but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " > point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. > > K > > > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > > wrote: > > > > > > > K, > > > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > > verified? > > Seems a little odd... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > > On Behalf Of john > > kokko > > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > > harmful > > chemicals. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 And??? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 9:14 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery K, Have you considered LI 15 as a part of yang heel vessel? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > Sun, 2 May 2010 10:53:24 -0500 > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > Jason, > Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 > " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification > point. > Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, > eczema etc. > It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. > ...Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to > a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 > > According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other skin > problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. > One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins > (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert > Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. > > This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most > acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we > believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. > I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison > oak... > but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " > point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. > > K > > > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > > > > > > > K, > > > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > > verified? > > Seems a little odd... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > On Behalf Of john > > kokko > > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > > harmful > > chemicals. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 09:44:17 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery And??? -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 9:14 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery K, Have you considered LI 15 as a part of yang heel vessel? Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> > johnkokko <johnkokko%40gmail.com> > Sun, 2 May 2010 10:53:24 -0500 > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > Jason, > Kiiko writes in Clinical Strategies vol 1 > " Due to its diuretic properties, Kid9 is considered a good detoxification > point. > Together with LI 15, it is used for skin problems such as rash, hives, > eczema etc. > It is also used with Liv5, to help the body detoxify from medications. > ...Kid9 and LI15 are indicated specifically when the patient was exposed to > a strong chemical treatment, radiation therapy or was poisoned " pg. 342 > > According to traditional knowledge, LI 15 is used for rubella and other skin > problems as well as clearing yang-ming heat. > One interpretation of KD 9's name " Zhu2 Bin1 " " Guest House " is that toxins > (guests) can be stored and released from this point. According to Robert > Johns, it is used for dry skin, itching and eczema. > > This is an empirical point combination that has been passed down, like most > acupuncture combinations. Verified? as much as we can trust what we > believe what others tell us and have seen for ourselves. > I've used this combination for skin issues to good effect... hives, poison > oak... > but I'm not sure how we could ultimately prove that it's a good " detox " > point for chemo, radiation or other poisonings. > > K > > > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:44 AM, < > <%40Chinese Medicine> > wrote: > > > > > > > K, > > > > Is there an explanation for this point combo and how has this been > > verified? > > Seems a little odd... > > > > -Jason > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > > [Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40>] > > On Behalf Of john > > kokko > > Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:37 AM > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40> <Chinese Medicine%40> > > Re: Anesthesia recovery > > > > In Kiiko system, LI 15 and KD 9 are used to " detoxify " the body from > > harmful > > chemicals. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Jason, I will check my texts later tonight, they are at home, but it appears to me that both things might be the right answer (western understanding, palpation). I would also suggest that the concept of toxin needs to be expanded, yes, to include modern substances that are harmful to the body. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 _______________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 When you look at the function of LI 15 I notice that it " courses wind, dispels pathogens, and resolves heat. " Perhaps that is why Kiiko chose it? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Yes Don, but there are many points that do this. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Monday, May 03, 2010 10:37 AM TCM group RE: Anesthesia recovery When you look at the function of LI 15 I notice that it " courses wind, dispels pathogens, and resolves heat. " Perhaps that is why Kiiko chose it? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 I agree with Jason that there are so many points and combinations that can clear pathogens (wind, heat, damp, phlegm, blood stasis, " gu - toxins " etc..) so we need more explanation why Kiiko decided to type and publish LI 15 with KD 9 specifically for " detoxification " . This is actually a chapter in the Clinical Volume 1 devoted to this. However, I wouldn't call it a " sloppy " treatment, until we get the description from Kiiko or David, who I'll contact and ask about this. It may be very specific and very effective, which I find most of Kiiko style to be. You might say that the description is " sloppy " , since it's not thorough enough... which I can agree on. It may be empirical or there could be a sharper explanation. I'll get back with more info soon... K On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > > When you look at the function of LI 15 I notice that it " courses wind, > dispels pathogens, and resolves heat. " Perhaps that is why Kiiko chose it? > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 > RE: Anesthesia recovery > > > > > > Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is > much different than a point prescription that has a specific western > function. > > -Jason > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike > Bowser > Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM > Chinese Traditional Medicine > RE: Anesthesia recovery > > Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage > over > time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and > accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what > determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes > here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points > are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, > these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it > is significant, then they will be treated. > > I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in > her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right > from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic > theories. > Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what > location and what needling angle and depth. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > .1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Hey, someone asked and I could think of no other reason for using it. Do you not think that I am aware of many other points that might fulfill the same function? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 11:03:15 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Yes Don, but there are many points that do this. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Monday, May 03, 2010 10:37 AM TCM group RE: Anesthesia recovery When you look at the function of LI 15 I notice that it " courses wind, dispels pathogens, and resolves heat. " Perhaps that is why Kiiko chose it? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 I have no idea, just questioning your thinking process. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Monday, May 03, 2010 11:08 AM TCM group RE: Anesthesia recovery Hey, someone asked and I could think of no other reason for using it. Do you not think that I am aware of many other points that might fulfill the same function? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 11:03:15 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Yes Don, but there are many points that do this. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Donald Snow Monday, May 03, 2010 10:37 AM TCM group RE: Anesthesia recovery When you look at the function of LI 15 I notice that it " courses wind, dispels pathogens, and resolves heat. " Perhaps that is why Kiiko chose it? Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine Mon, 3 May 2010 10:30:02 -0600 RE: Anesthesia recovery Exactly.. Treating based on palpation (which is the patient's pattern) is much different than a point prescription that has a specific western function. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Monday, May 03, 2010 10:06 AM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: Anesthesia recovery Maybe some change in tissue tension was noted as related to toxin usage over time. Organs are responsible for eliminating unwanted substances and accumulation will create issues for the organ reflexes (this is what determines what she treats, mostly). I am thinking about palpatory changes here. As for Kiiko, she often will press on these points when other points are not clearing abdominal reactions. If the history shows usage of drugs, these will be pressed upon to see how they change the abdominal pain. If it is significant, then they will be treated. I will need to re-read this chapter to see if she adds anymore to this in her books. It is good to also note that the Japanese appear to go right from exam to treatment and not spend a lot of time with diagnostic theories. Exam is part of diagnosis and is simply, does this point work, at what location and what needling angle and depth. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc ..1.1/2851 - Release 05/03/10 00:27:00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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