compounding herbs quickly in clinic

[Guest guest]

someone was querying a while back about how to do herbs quickly. the herbal

practice was slowing her down causing her to see less patients.

 

look into j chang herb classes with lotus. he uses granules formulas (not

singles) and mixes 2-5 together, maybe including some single herbs.

formulas can be put together in 5 min this way. interesting concept.

 

kath

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Follow Your Bliss!

Joseph Campbell

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are people getting good results mixing 2-5 formulas together?

That's like 40 + herbs sometimes, huh?

 

K

 

 

 

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 5:43 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> someone was querying a while back about how to do herbs quickly. the herbal

> practice was slowing her down causing her to see less patients.

>

> look into j chang herb classes with lotus. he uses granules formulas (not

> singles) and mixes 2-5 together, maybe including some single herbs.

> formulas can be put together in 5 min this way. interesting concept.

>

> kath

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Follow Your Bliss!

> Joseph Campbell

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

>

[Guest guest]

chang and jchen its not the same as using 40 herbs because the formulas have

already been cooked together the create the granule formula. therefore your

adding the 'essence' of the formula rather than all the individual herbs.

 

here's a link to a short john chen video about the concept:

 

 

 

k

 

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:10 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Are people getting good results mixing 2-5 formulas together?

> That's like 40 + herbs sometimes, huh?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 5:43 PM, <acukath

> >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > someone was querying a while back about how to do herbs quickly. the

> herbal

> > practice was slowing her down causing her to see less patients.

> >

> > look into j chang herb classes with lotus. he uses granules formulas (not

> > singles) and mixes 2-5 together, maybe including some single herbs.

> > formulas can be put together in 5 min this way. interesting concept.

> >

> > kath

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Follow Your Bliss!

> > Joseph Campbell

> >

> > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777

> > kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think the word " essence " is a bit miss leading. For example, it sounds a

bit like homeopathy. J. Chen does not say that you are not giving all of

these herbs. There is no doubt that the active and nonactive ingredients

from all of the herbs end up in the final product. The ratio of such

ingredients almost always will differ from a lesser or greater extent from

an herbal decoction, however the idea is the same. If, you put 40 herbs in a

pot you are giving the patient 40 herbs . This is the same with granulars.

However the dosage of each herb (and their constituents) will usually be

much less in granular form. I personally find this method a bit sloppy, but

I know many people like it. As far as getting results. Have you ever heard

anyone say they don't get results with their method?

 

 

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Kath

Bartlett, MS, LAc

Monday, May 03, 2010 6:57 AM

 

Re: compounding herbs quickly in clinic

 

 

 

 

 

chang and jchen its not the same as using 40 herbs because the formulas have

already been cooked together the create the granule formula. therefore your

adding the 'essence' of the formula rather than all the individual herbs.

 

here's a link to a short john chen video about the concept:

 

 

k

 

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:10 PM, <johnkokko

<johnkokko%40gmail.com> > wrote:

 

> Are people getting good results mixing 2-5 formulas together?

> That's like 40 + herbs sometimes, huh?

>

> K

>

>

>

> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 5:43 PM, <acukath

<acukath%40gmail.com>

> >wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > someone was querying a while back about how to do herbs quickly. the

> herbal

> > practice was slowing her down causing her to see less patients.

> >

> > look into j chang herb classes with lotus. he uses granules formulas

(not

> > singles) and mixes 2-5 together, maybe including some single herbs.

> > formulas can be put together in 5 min this way. interesting concept.

> >

> > kath

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Follow Your Bliss!

> > Joseph Campbell

> >

> > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777

> > kbartlett

<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

> > Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

i haven't talked to anyone who uses this method. jchang is considered a

master practitioner, known for results. i agree, it's less exacting than

mixing the indiv herbs. however, i have heard the argument for using

granule rx rather than singles that in the rx the herbs get cooked together

and there's a synergy that doesn't happen when you place the same singles in

the jar and mix with hot water.

 

the idea here is to use the gran rx and add singles to modify. another

benefit is that it is faster to compound in the clinic. gen west patients

need several rx to tx a complex conditions. with patent pills practitioners

give several bottles, using maybe 3 pills of each, or 25% rx a, 50% rx b,

25% rx c. this is essentially what jimmy chang is doing, only he's mixing

up the gran that way.

 

it's a way to quickly mix herbs in a busy practice.

 

k

 

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:11 AM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> I think the word " essence " is a bit miss leading. For example, it sounds a

> bit like homeopathy. J. Chen does not say that you are not giving all of

> these herbs. There is no doubt that the active and nonactive ingredients

> from all of the herbs end up in the final product. The ratio of such

> ingredients almost always will differ from a lesser or greater extent from

> an herbal decoction, however the idea is the same. If, you put 40 herbs in

> a

> pot you are giving the patient 40 herbs . This is the same with granulars.

> However the dosage of each herb (and their constituents) will usually be

> much less in granular form. I personally find this method a bit sloppy, but

> I know many people like it. As far as getting results. Have you ever heard

> anyone say they don't get results with their method?

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Follow Your Bliss!

Joseph Campbell

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett: www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828 258-2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

Kath's Blog: http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 Hi Kath;

 

 It's not an " argument " , it is the reality. There is a reason that ther herbs

are cooked together traditionally. The ingredients mix and change according to

what ingredients are present. Additive, subtractive, synergistic and new effects

are amongst the results of cooking together. So yes, if all we ever use are

single granular herbs we potentially miss out on very important clinical

effects. I remember the first time I took a single granule herb " formula " it was

weird because I could taste all the herbs individually, nothing had been melded.

The energetics of the formula felt very loose.

 

 Hugo

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

" "

<Chinese Medicine >

Mon, 3 May, 2010 9:59:07

Re: compounding herbs quickly in clinic

 

 

i haven't talked to anyone who uses this method. jchang is considered a

master practitioner, known for results. i agree, it's less exacting than

mixing the indiv herbs. however, i have heard the argument for using

granule rx rather than singles that in the rx the herbs get cooked together

and there's a synergy that doesn't happen when you place the same singles in

the jar and mix with hot water.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have taken many classes with Dr. Jimmy Chang and studied with him personally

in his clinic. Dr. Chang is from Taiwan and practices " Fang Jia Fang " or

Formula plus Formula. He is a master pulse diagnostician and has developed an

entirely new pulse system based on many years of clinical experience. His Fang

Jia Fang method utilizes herbal medicine with the emphasis on returning the

pulses to a " normal " jump and shape. Dr. Chang is amazing in that not only was

he able to develop this accurate pulse diagnostic method, but he is also able to

articulate his method clearly and transmit the information to others so that

they also can replicate his results clinically. I believe Fang Jia Fang is

quite popular in Taiwan, but I am sure others on this forum are better suited to

report on that topic. Dr. Chang loves to focus on the flavors of the herbal

medicine and use the properties of those flavors to change the pulse jump and

shape. It is true, this method is quite conducive to a fast pace practice (Dr.

Chang used to see 150 patients a day in Taiwan for many years). Using this Fang

Jia Fang method may seem sloppy to some, but I certainly can attest to it's

clinical efficacy. Certainly I have had patients that needed a more classical

TCM herbal approach (specifically dermatology and inflammatory bowel disease

patients), but Fang Jia Fang works very well for the majority of my patients.

 

Sincerely,

 

Benjamin Chang, DTCM, ADS, L.Ac.

Chang's Chinese Wellness Center

http://www.changschinesewellness.com

[Guest guest]

There is really nothing new about 'fang jia fang' as a method. Several formulas

in the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue use this method, for example chai hu

gui zhi tang is a 'hybrid' of gui zhi tang/cinnamon twig decoction and xiao chai

hu tang/minor bupleurum decoction. It is mainstream practice in Taiwan (Eric

Brand has written about this on his blog), and does suit clinical practice. I

use it often myself.

 

 

On May 3, 2010, at 1:27 PM, dtcmlac wrote:

 

>

>

> I have taken many classes with Dr. Jimmy Chang and studied with him personally

in his clinic. Dr. Chang is from Taiwan and practices " Fang Jia Fang " or Formula

plus Formula. He is a master pulse diagnostician and has developed an entirely

new pulse system based on many years of clinical experience. His Fang Jia Fang

method utilizes herbal medicine with the emphasis on returning the pulses to a

" normal " jump and shape. Dr. Chang is amazing in that not only was he able to

develop this accurate pulse diagnostic method, but he is also able to articulate

his method clearly and transmit the information to others so that they also can

replicate his results clinically. I believe Fang Jia Fang is quite popular in

Taiwan, but I am sure others on this forum are better suited to report on that

topic. Dr. Chang loves to focus on the flavors of the herbal medicine and use

the properties of those flavors to change the pulse jump and shape. It is true,

this method is quite conducive to a fast pace practice (Dr. Chang used to see

150 patients a day in Taiwan for many years). Using this Fang Jia Fang method

may seem sloppy to some, but I certainly can attest to it's clinical efficacy.

Certainly I have had patients that needed a more classical TCM herbal approach

(specifically dermatology and inflammatory bowel disease patients), but Fang Jia

Fang works very well for the majority of my patients.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Benjamin Chang, DTCM, ADS, L.Ac.

> Chang's Chinese Wellness Center

> http://www.changschinesewellness.com

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev is correct. However, this chai hu gui zhi tang example actually

demonstrates the limitations of this method. If one were to mix XCHT + GZT

granulars (themselves) they would end up with the correct herbs but there

would be two problems.

 

1) the two formulas would not be cooked together, hence encountering the

same problem as mixing singulars (but to a lesser degree).

2) one would end up with too much gancao, shengjiang, and dazao. This is

because both formulas contain these three medicinals in much higher

quantities then the SHL's dramatically reduced dosages in the final chai hu

gui zhi tang.

 

The SHL really emphasizes how formulas' actions change with only small

changes in dosage. Such inability to subtract medicinals and modify dosages

from the final formula leads to an imprecise method. This is not to say

people can't get it to work and I am sure there are great clinicians that

use this method. I personally find nothing compares to writing one's own

script. I often find e.g. changing one herb in a formula by 3 grams can

actually make a huge difference.

 

-

www.Chinesemedicinedoc.com

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

Rosenberg

Monday, May 03, 2010 2:50 PM

Chinese Medicine

Re: compounding herbs quickly in clinic

 

There is really nothing new about 'fang jia fang' as a method. Several

formulas in the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue use this method, for

example chai hu gui zhi tang is a 'hybrid' of gui zhi tang/cinnamon twig

decoction and xiao chai hu tang/minor bupleurum decoction. It is mainstream

practice in Taiwan (Eric Brand has written about this on his blog), and does

suit clinical practice. I use it often myself.

 

 

On May 3, 2010, at 1:27 PM, dtcmlac wrote:

[Guest guest]

Absolutely correct, Jason. Dosage can be critical in the Shang Han Lun.

 

Those who follow the Taiwanese method say that each formula is looked at like a

single medicinal, so that the increases of dosage of ingredients isn't crucial.

 

We have the long-term data from SHL-style practice, I think it will take some

time to see whether the Taiwanese style has any difficulties associated with the

increased dosages of some ingredients. .

 

 

On May 3, 2010, at 4:43 PM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev is correct. However, this chai hu gui zhi tang example actually

> demonstrates the limitations of this method. If one were to mix XCHT + GZT

> granulars (themselves) they would end up with the correct herbs but there

> would be two problems.

>

> 1) the two formulas would not be cooked together, hence encountering the

> same problem as mixing singulars (but to a lesser degree).

> 2) one would end up with too much gancao, shengjiang, and dazao. This is

> because both formulas contain these three medicinals in much higher

> quantities then the SHL's dramatically reduced dosages in the final chai hu

> gui zhi tang.

>

> The SHL really emphasizes how formulas' actions change with only small

> changes in dosage. Such inability to subtract medicinals and modify dosages

> from the final formula leads to an imprecise method. This is not to say

> people can't get it to work and I am sure there are great clinicians that

> use this method. I personally find nothing compares to writing one's own

> script. I often find e.g. changing one herb in a formula by 3 grams can

> actually make a huge difference.

>

> -

> www.Chinesemedicinedoc.com

>

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev

> Rosenberg

> Monday, May 03, 2010 2:50 PM

> Chinese Medicine

> Re: compounding herbs quickly in clinic

>

> There is really nothing new about 'fang jia fang' as a method. Several

> formulas in the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue use this method, for

> example chai hu gui zhi tang is a 'hybrid' of gui zhi tang/cinnamon twig

> decoction and xiao chai hu tang/minor bupleurum decoction. It is mainstream

> practice in Taiwan (Eric Brand has written about this on his blog), and does

> suit clinical practice. I use it often myself.

>

>

> On May 3, 2010, at 1:27 PM, dtcmlac wrote:

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122