How to incorporate western herbs into the chinese system

[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas-

 

I am VERY interested in exploring the incorporation of western herbs into

the chinese diagnostic and energetic system. I have read the work of Tierra,

Peter Holmes and Vasant Lad. The possibilities of using local, organic,

and particularly, wildcrafted herbs is very exciting. I can't help

but assume that plants that come from the Earth where I live will work

better in my body and mind.

 

I would like to know of any other references that you might know of that

are out there on this subject. And I would also be interested in any case

studies you could share that would illuminate how YOU have come to bring

the western pharmacy and chinese diagnostics together.

 

Lastly, I would love to take an online course in this subject!

 

Thanks,

 

Roddey Cohn

[Guest guest]

Roddy and other list members,

 

It is exciting to have a forum where I can express my passion, plants.

Further, I look forward to adding a little spice into the discussions by

adding botanicals that many of you are unfamiliar with but which are

available, clean (perhaps even organically grown) and perhaps most

importantly fresh (not fresh in the sense that they are raw and undried but

rather they haven't been sitting in a wharehouse China for a year or two

before comming here).

When I began serious study of herbal medicine I was taught to use both

Western and Chinese herbs in both biomedical and TCM systems. I quickly

migrated toward TCM having studied martial arts for many years. For over

seven years now I have been using Western (Including many natives of the

Pacific West of the USA.) and Chinese herbs together using the diagnostic

system of TCM. About three years ago I started writing a book about three

years ago and it is nearing completion, I look forward to sharing some of it

with this list.

 

 

 

> rowdy

>

> Hi Thomas-

>

> I am VERY interested in exploring the incorporation of western herbs into

> the chinese diagnostic and energetic system. I have read the work of

Tierra,

> Peter Holmes and Vasant Lad. The possibilities of using local, organic,

> and particularly, wildcrafted herbs is very exciting. I can't help

> but assume that plants that come from the Earth where I live will work

> better in my body and mind.

>

> I would like to know of any other references that you might know of that

> are out there on this subject. And I would also be interested in any case

> studies you could share that would illuminate how YOU have come to bring

> the western pharmacy and chinese diagnostics together.

>

> Lastly, I would love to take an online course in this subject!

>

> Thanks,

>

> Roddey Cohn

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

Roddy and other list members,

 

It is exciting to have a forum where I can express my passion, plants.

Further, I look forward to adding a little spice into the discussions by

adding botanicals that many of you are unfamiliar with but which are

available, clean (perhaps even organically grown) and perhaps most

importantly fresh (not fresh in the sense that they are raw and undried but

rather they haven't been sitting in a wharehouse China for a year or two

before comming here).

When I began serious study of herbal medicine I was taught to use both

Western and Chinese herbs in both biomedical and TCM systems. I quickly

migrated toward TCM having studied martial arts for many years. For over

seven years now I have been using Western (Including many natives of the

Pacific West of the USA.) and Chinese herbs together using the diagnostic

system of TCM. About three years ago I started writing a book about three

years ago and it is nearing completion, I look forward to sharing some of it

with this list.

Rather than give a case history at this time I'll give you little excerp

from my book, hope its not to long.

BTW there is another interesting piece of work in this area done by Dan

Kenner published by Paradigm. I'm not a big fan of it or any of the other

work done in this area and that is one of the reasons I decided to embark on

this project, it needed to be done " right " , by that I mean in a way that

those of us trained in Chinese herbal medicine in the West can understand

and use by staying within the framework of Traditional Chinese Herbal

Medicine.

 

Explanation of Text

 

Within each monograph I have given several different names for the same

plant, but outside of the monograph the pharmaceutical name is used, this

will eliminate any question of the part of the plant that is being used in

that instance. For the heading of each monograph I have chosen to use the

most commonly used name of the plant. Followed by the botanical name and the

plant family according to the latest taxonomy. The pharmaceutical name is

given and finally there are other common names given if they are in relative

common usage. I have added a brief botanical description with basic

harvesting information for those who have interest in plants beyond their

clinical value. It is beyond the scope of this book to give detailed

descriptions of the plants but I have done my best to include all the

pertinent information regarding harvesting. Next the Energetics of the herb

are listed. These represent my interpretation of the taste and qi of each

herb. Next the Channels Entered are listed, as I perceive them. Under the

Actions listing are the biomedical/physiological actions of the plant. This

is a Western scientific understanding of how the herb works. This

information has generally been drawn from the latest data available and is

one of the only places in the text that you will find biomedical information

on the plants. The Functions & Indications section of the monograph includes

the functions of the herb as I see it from a strict Chinese medical

perspective. I have purposely omitted any reference to biomedical actions in

this part of the monograph. The indications included here are the

traditional/biomedical indications for the botanical with little exception.

The exceptions are where I have found the herb useful when considering it

from the Chinese medical perspective or where other practitioners have

stated specific uses for the herbs. Under Dosage & Preparation you will find

the most common methods of preparation and the dosage for each preparation.

Because tinctures are very popular in Western herbal medicine and are

commonly used in clinical herbology, all the herbs have tincture dosage (see

under preparation for more information about tinctures and extracting

techniques). There is also Pao Zhi in this section of some of the

monographs, see the next paragraph for more information about Pao Zhi and

this text. Each monograph has Major Combinations. This section is very

important for two reasons; first because it shows how these herbs have been

combined by many practitioners before us and second because it offers some

combinations with Chinese herbs that I have found to be effective. Finally,

I have included Commentary for each herb. In this section there may be found

a wide array of information from historical to specific comments about usage

of the plant in question.

 

HERBS THAT RESOLVE THE EXTERIOR

 

Herbs that resolve the exterior are used primarily to halt the progression

of an external pathogen through the surface and to relieve the symptoms due

to the response of the wei qi to that pathogen. There are several ways in

which this is done including: Resolving the exterior with coolness and

acridity, Resolving the exterior with warmth and acridity, Resolving the

flesh, Out-thrusting papules, Coursing the exterior and several combinations

of supplementation and exterior resolving techniques.

The primary way in which this is done is through diaphoresis, which includes

both resolving with cool/acridity and warmth/acridity as well as resolving

the flesh. The supplementation/exterior resolving combinations may also

include this method of treatment. An herb which evoke sweating as its

primary function will be found in this category, some herbs that fit this

description are Flos seu Herba Achillea millefolium, Flos Sambucus, Rhizoma

et Radix Aralia Californica and Rhizoma Asarum.

Although diaphoresis is the main method of resolving the exterior, sweating

need not always be necessary to resolve the pathogen. The method of

out-thrusting papules (tou zhen) encourages the rashes and measles to come

to completion. Another method of resolving the exterior without evoking

sweating is called coursing the exterior (shu biao). In this method of

treatment causing diaphoresis is not necessary and so although the

medicinals may or may not cause sweating, it is not requisite for the

resolution of the exterior in a particular case. Herbs that fit in this

category are Herba Mentha, Herba Ephedra nevadensis and Herba Thymus

Vulgaris, other herbs not found in this category in the text that have this

function are Herba Verbena Lasiostayches, Radix Echinacea and Cortex

Chionanthus Virginica.

The three supplementing and resolving the exterior combination methods

(Enrich yin and resolve the exterior, Boosting qi and resolving the

exterior, Assisting yang and resolving the exterior) are therapeutic methods

that use both supplementing medicinals and medicinals that resolve the

exterior. There are herbs that may be used to treat both branches giving

them significant clinical advantage. In this text both Rhizoma et Radix

Aralia Californica and Fructus Sambucus may be used in this way.

In this text there are two basic breakdowns of this major category Herbs

that Resolve the Exterior, these subcategories are Cool Acrid Herbs that

Resolve the Exterior and Warm Acrid Herbs that Resolve the Exterior. Within

these two categories may be found any of the above mentioned subcategories

of Herbs that Resolve the Exterior.

 

 

Cool Acrid Herbs that Resolve the Exterior

 

The primary action of this category of herbs is to resolve exterior heat

patterns with symptoms which include; sore throat, heat effusion, thirst,

slight aversion to cold, possibly a red tongue with dry thin white fur and a

floating rapid pulse. Within this category you will find herbs that have a

strong diaphoretic action such as Herba Achillea Millifolium and others that

have a weaker action in this manner such as Herba Thymus Vulgaris. Both

these herbs however are excellent in clearing heat whereas herbs such as

Herba Salvia Officinalis and Herba Stachyes Rigida are not as strong at

clearing heat. Herba Salvia Officinalis is excellent for complications with

damp pathogens and has a dual purpose of stopping sweating when taken cool

instead of hot. Herba Stachyes Rigida is excellent is cases of stronger wind

pathogens and has an affinity for the eyes, sinus', and head. Like Herba seu

Flos Achillea Millifolium, Flos Sambucus has both a strong action in causing

sweating and clearing heat and can be used for when wind and heat invades

the lung both during initial stages and if it get lodged in and causes

wind-heat sores.

 

 

Thyme

Thymus vulgaris

Laminaceae

Part used: leaves

Botanical description and harvesting: A typical garden plant I find it

difficult to write a description when we all know what it looks like,

but.Thyme is a small trailing mint with dark green, lance shaped leaves, and

white to light purple typical mint flowers. Thyme should be harvested on a

nice hot late morning early afternoon in the summer just as it begins to

bloom. It should be left to dry in a cool shaded area either hanging or

spread out on screens.

Energetics: acrid, slightly bitter, slightly cold

Channels entered: lung, stomach, liver

Actions: antiseptic, expectorant, antitussive, antispasmodic, carminative

Functions & Indications: Resolves the exterior, disperses wind-heat and

benefits the throat for wind heat invasion with red swollen sore throat,

fever, cough and headache. This herb is also useful when the pathogen has

obstructed the nose with thick yellow mucus.

Disperses wind and stops cough for wind that has entered the lungs and

impaired the lungs descending function. Although this is a cooling herb it

is very effective at stopping cough and can be used in both heat and cold

conditions when combined with the appropriate herbs. Spasmodic coughs such

as whooping cough respond very well to this herb.

Disinhibits the liver for liver qi stagnation leading to menstrual problems

such as dysmenorrhea, premenstrual tension and irritability. It is also for

intestinal wind due to disharmony between the liver and spleen.

Because of its safety and effectiveness Thyme is an excellent children's

herb for any of the above indications as well as being used for colic.

The essential oil of this plant has been used externally for hot swollen

joints due to wind-heat-damp bi.

Cautions: Use with caution in cases of yin vacuity.

Dosage and Preparation: 2-6g in strong infusion; 1-3ml in tincture; 2-8

drops of the oil in a syrup. The tincture is made with the fresh leaves or a

fluid extract can be made from the dried leaves.

Major Combinations: Combine the tincture or strong infusion with lemon juice

and salt as a gargle for sore throat.

Combine with Radix Ligustici Grayi or L. Porteri and Folium Salvia Melifera

for sore throat due to external wind-heat invasion.

Combine with Herba Drosea Rotundifolia for spasmodic cough caused by

external wind-heat invasion. This is an excellent combination for children

with croup or whooping cough.

Combine with Mulberry Leaf and Chrysanthemum Decoction (san ju yin) for

initial stages of wind-heat with sore throat.

Combine with Stop Coughing Powder (zhi sou san) for coughing with sore

throat due to wind-heat.

 

Trusting you like it,

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

> rowdy

>

> Hi Thomas-

>

> I am VERY interested in exploring the incorporation of western herbs into

> the chinese diagnostic and energetic system. I have read the work of

Tierra,

> Peter Holmes and Vasant Lad. The possibilities of using local, organic,

> and particularly, wildcrafted herbs is very exciting. I can't help

> but assume that plants that come from the Earth where I live will work

> better in my body and mind.

>

> I would like to know of any other references that you might know of that

> are out there on this subject. And I would also be interested in any case

> studies you could share that would illuminate how YOU have come to bring

> the western pharmacy and chinese diagnostics together.

>

> Lastly, I would love to take an online course in this subject!

>

> Thanks,

>

> Roddey Cohn

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

I forgot to add the main value I would see in using western herbs is as

modifications or adjuncts to TCM, in which case, their TCM qualities

would be useful to know.

 

I also don't like to guinea pig my patients, so I couldn't ever imagine

myself doing this except in a very circumspect way. I have studied

western herbs and sometimes give them to my patients, but there is no

substitute for most of my favorite formulae. While TCM does allow

substitution, it is also thought that no substitutions can produce an

identical effect to the original. Thus, in all of chinese history and

geography, there is no complete sub for chai hu. Other herbs may

address some of its properties and combinations may address a few. But

chai hu has unique biochemistry. This is just one example.

 

I use variations of about ten formuale to treat my patients. Maybe just

100 herbs total I use regularly. I prefer to limit my materia medica

and know it well. In TCM, there have been those who advocated both this

style (such as zhu dan xi and bob flaws) and the more all encompassing

approach of say li shi zhen.

[Guest guest]

> I also don't like to guinea pig my patients, so I couldn't ever imagine

> myself doing this except in a very circumspect way.

 

You are in the minority, did you know what you were doing in the student

clinic or when you first started practicing? or did you use your patients as

" guinea pigs " ? Did Zhu Dan-xi or more so some of his early counterparts know

what they were doing, or did they experiment?

This is not to say that I don't have some of the same issues, BUT I'm sure

that many people died because early herbalists didn't really know what they

were doing and were working on speculation. This was undoubtedly in the name

of progress and in an attempt to help the patient, nevertheless it was

experimentation.

I am very careful about what I do and frequently just think I should give a

straight TCM formula, knowing full-well that it is the proper formula for

the case. I check in with myself again and if that is still where I'm at I

give it, if I feel like there is some way that I can modify the formula to

better suit them then I do it, this happens more often than not.

 

thomas

I have studied

> western herbs and sometimes give them to my patients, but there is no

> substitute for most of my favorite formulae. While TCM does allow

> substitution, it is also thought that no substitutions can produce an

> identical effect to the original. Thus, in all of chinese history and

> geography, there is no complete sub for chai hu. Other herbs may

> address some of its properties and combinations may address a few. But

> chai hu has unique biochemistry. This is just one example.

>

> I use variations of about ten formuale to treat my patients. Maybe just

> 100 herbs total I use regularly. I prefer to limit my materia medica

> and know it well. In TCM, there have been those who advocated both this

> style (such as zhu dan xi and bob flaws) and the more all encompassing

> approach of say li shi zhen.

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

thomas,

 

When I was in student clinic, I deferred completely to the experience of

my teachers. I can't remember a single time that I just conducted an

experiment without their guidance. So I do not believe my intern

patients were guinea pigs. My only interest as a student was

internalizing my teacher's knowledge, not being personally creative.

 

In my private practice, I have been on my own and have no doubt made

mistakes, but those mistakes would be due to incorrect diagnosis, NOT

because I did not know the properties of the herbs I was using. Every

patient is being " practiced " upon, but practicing what you have learned

is different than testing a brand new idea. An analogy in western med

would be doing the wrong procedure because you interpreted the lab test

wrong vs. doing an untested procedure when a safe, tested one already

exists.

 

I also do not agree that zhu dan xi did experiments on his patients

either. In fact, my online course is oriented around a historical

perspective that demonstrates how each great master built upon the works

of his predecessors. Thus, zhu dan xi is not known for his

incorporation of unusual herbs and his formulae are clearly derived from

li dong yuan, zhang zi he, and zhang ji himself, even.

 

But zhang ji says his ideas were passed onto him from even earlier

sources. Before the written tradition, there was no doubt an oral

tradition and at the earliest time in medical history, plenty of

experimentation. But I suspect the earliest ideas grew out of

self-experimentation. This in fact is very likely as traditional

shamanic use of herbs (the earliest form of herbal medicine, I think)

usually involved the ingestion of herbs by the shaman and not the

patient himself. Consider the legend of shen nong, who while called an

emperor, is considered more of a taoist shaman by others (like Heiner

Fruehauf). He guinea pigged himself.

 

BTW, I don't even like guinea pigging guinea pigs, just to set the

record straight.

 

However, I am all in favor of self-experimentation, discussing the

results with our colleagues and drawing initial conclusions therefrom.

Also, if one is skilled in western herbs, by all means use them and make

notes of what you think about about their " energetics " . But (and I know

you also oppose this), if you are not trained in western herbs, do not

haphazardly substitute them for TCM formulae based on some fanciful idea

that local is better. While this is clearly not your position, thomas,

I can assure you it is the position of many TCM students I have

encountered over the years. I am glad you seem to be tackling this

subject from a very responsible clinical perspective. Bravo!

 

An herb I love is lobelia. It has the most remarkable clinical effects.

I will look forward to reading your monograph on this one.

 

[Guest guest]

> TLuger ()

>

> When I was in student clinic, I deferred completely to the experience of

> my teachers. I can't remember a single time that I just conducted an

> experiment without their guidance. So I do not believe my intern

> patients were guinea pigs. My only interest as a student was

> internalizing my teacher's knowledge, not being personally creative.

 

Very honorable! I comend you on your humility.

>

> In my private practice, I have been on my own and have no doubt made

> mistakes, but those mistakes would be due to incorrect diagnosis, NOT

> because I did not know the properties of the herbs I was using.

 

When making these mistakes, especially the ones in the begining, did you

actually " know " the herbs you were using. I mean NO disrespect. I believe

that I can not know it until I experience it as so, whatever SO is. In other

words until you (or anybody) have seen a plant work in a particular way

(perhaps many times) there is no way to " know " . You can read and internalize

your teachers knowledge but until you see it and feel it there is no way to

" know " . Scholars are rarely EXCELLENT practitioners, in my humble opinion.

This is why I believe in experience over speculation and as Z'ev said in his

post this is precisely why Peter Holms work is weak. There are other

reasons, again in my humble opinion, why his work is as weak as it is, but

we won't get into that.

 

Every

> patient is being " practiced " upon, but practicing what you have learned

> is different than testing a brand new idea.

 

Again, new to who? Are there any brand new ideas? Certianly attributing

Chinese energetics to an herb is not a NEW IDEA. I fact you mentioned Myrrh

before and there are many other examples of this phenominam. Where should

the boarders of TCM be drawn? Perhaps we should all move to China!!!???

If your using an idea that you read out of any book, isn't it new to you?

And as I said before I hold that no one can know until they see it. Of

course when we read Zhu Dan-xi or Li Dong-yuan we can be confident that if

we can interpret what they are saying and apply it to a particular clinical

presentation then it WILL work. But we are looking at modern patients with

dramatically different diets and lifestyles who will be effected slightly

different to any prescription. Further, they are simply different in there

clinical presentations, they have to be considering both our evolution and

the inpact of our enviroment.

 

> I also do not agree that zhu dan xi did experiments on his patients

> either.

 

Perhaps I was mistaken here, I only meant that practitioners in our past

have done far more experimentation than simply ascribing a new language (not

that it is simple in any way) to already known entities.

 

>Before the written tradition, there was no doubt an oral

> tradition and at the earliest time in medical history, plenty of

> experimentation. But I suspect the earliest ideas grew out of

> self-experimentation.

 

I totally agree and do a great deal of this myself. I have made myself sick

on many occations playing with native plants for which there is very little

written information, I have also made myself sick on plants where there is

information but needed to check them out for myself, lobelia is one of these

and I will put my monograph at the end of this post. Let me say this about

it now. It was perhaps the most difficult to ;write in the book yet. There

were many reasons for this, 1 there are six pages in Kings alone on the uses

of lobelia; 2 lobelia has been used for just about every disease know to

peoplekind; 3 it has many seemingly opposing indications; 4 I made myself

sick from it and the thought of it was repulsive for quite some time.

 

>This in fact is very likely as traditional

> shamanic use of herbs (the earliest form of herbal medicine, I think)

> usually involved the ingestion of herbs by the shaman and not the

> patient himself.

 

I have also used this as a method of treatment. Sometimes I think it is

better, but that is a subject that I do not wish to discuss in this forum.

 

 

The following is the monograph on lobelia, this is by no means absolute and

I welcome any comments or questions regarding it.

 

Lobelia

Lobelia inflata

Campanulaceae

Part used: herb and seed

Energetics: acrid, bitter, warm, slightly toxic

Channels entered: liver, lung, triple burner, stomach

Functions & Indications: Extinguishes wind and alleviates spasms and

convulsions for liver wind stirring internally of any etiology. This is a

very important herb for all types of spasm, convulsions, tremors and

seizures. Although it is warm it can be used in conditions where extreme

heat engenders wind when used with the appropriate heat clearing herbs.

Transforms phlegm and suppresses cough for copious sputum with spasmodic

cough, tightness in the chest, shortness of breath and difficulty breathing.

This is a very important herb in the treatment of whooping cough in

children. Because of this herbs ability to strongly transforms phlegm it can

be used for a wide variety of phlegm conditions both substantial and

insubstantial including phlegm-damp obstructing the lung, phlegm panting,

phlegm hiccough, phlegm constipation, phlegm confounding the orifices of the

heart, and phlegm vomiting.

Resolves the exterior, disperses wind-cold, transforms damp and relaxes the

muscle layer for exterior invasion of wind-cold with damp either present or

part of the exterior invasion. Symptoms of this condition are chills and

fever, stiff neck and sore muscles, nasal congestion, headache, feeling of

heaviness in the head or body and a floating, tight and likely a slippery

pulse. This patient may also have a thick tongue coating if they had

dampness previous to the external invasion. If this is true the symptoms

associated with dampness will most likely be glaring.

Induce vomiting for ejection therapy to treat either phlegm-drool

obstructing the throat and hampering breathing or stagnation of food causing

distention, fullness, and pain. When using this herb for ejection therapy it

should be given is small frequent doses until nausea occurs, then it should

be pushed until ejection ensues. The practitioner should be aware that the

patient is likely to have profuse perspiration with the ingestion of this

quantity of lobelia. It should also be noted that there will be oppressive

prostration, relation of the muscular system and a vacuous pulse but that

this state is short lived and the relief the patient feels is extremely

significant.

Cautions: Use caution for patients that are very weak, the elderly and the

very young. This is not to say that it can not be used for these groups of

patients only that the dosage should be modified and that the use of

ejection therapy should not be used.

Dosage and Preparation: 0.5-2ml in tincture up to 3.5ml as a simple, start

with 0.5ml in formula; 0.5-2 grams in infusion and up to 4-6 grams to cause

ejection. It should be noted that this herb is has been called pukeweed and

I suspect this is in part due to its extremely unpalitable taste, therefore

I sugest that it be prescribed in a tincture formula for most patients as

most patients have enough difficulty with teas without lobelia in the mix.

Major combinations: With Asclepias tuberosa and Zingiber officialis for heat

effusion do to external invasion by either wind-heat or wind-cold.

With Caulophyllum thalictroides and Capsicum annuum for tugging and

slacking.

Commentary: This herb has been controversial over the years. At one time it

was one of the more widely prescribed herbs in American herbalism. It has

fallen out of vogue to some extent, partially because of its ability to

cause nausea and vomiting. Nevertheless this is one of the most useful herbs

in the Western and certainly the American materia medica. Although some may

consider it toxic I have used it for children, including my own with great

success in cough and with no adverse reactions. Dosage is critical, like any

medication the difference between therapeutic value and toxicity is a matter

of dosage. When prepared correctly, it doesn't take much lobelia to affect a

significant change in a patient's condition. The change can be profound and

lasting.

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture