dispensing herbs

[Guest guest]

Hey out there,

 

Well this seems to be starting slowly so I thought I would submit something

to start some thread to follow.

So, I'm curious in what form most of you are dispensing herbs?

 

I favor raw herbs but use lots of powdered extracts and tinctures.

 

I just want to clearify that when I say tincture I mean tincture as a

defined term to mean a 1:2 or more dilute extract using alcohol and water as

the solvent. If the liquid extract is 1:1 it is a fluid extract, by

definition.

If the extract is more concentrated, as most of the proprietary preparation

are, this is called a liquid extract.

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

 

 

I also use KPC and like them a great deal.

 

As to your sub. comment, I agree that this is a problem and am mystified as

to why many practitioners are either unaware or don't seem to pay much

attention to the issue.

On the other hand while in NYC this summer I was speaking to a man for

southern China who claims that the ji xue teng substitute is the ji xue teng

that he learned and used in school there many years ago and insisted that it

proforms all the functions of ji xue teng in our english books.

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simulaneously "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

I use mainly concentrated powders from KPC. I find them to be more

reliable than raw herbs. I only practice parttime, so I cannot maintain

a bulk pharmacy of sufficient freshness. I have found that quality

varies too much for effective prescribing when I have bulk formulae

filled outside my clinic. Basically, if I can't see the herbs myself,

then I want them somewhat standardized or batch tested for potency. KPC

does this, plus as far as I know they are the only extract company that

uses correctly identified sheng ma, ban xia, dang gui, ji xue teng and

ban lan gen.

 

This herb substitution problem was a major issue a few years ago, got

little press, then disappeared. I suspect that most of the herbs listed

above used in patent medicine made both here and in china are made from

substitute species that DO NOt have the properties of the correct item.

 

EXAMPLES:

 

cimicifuga (sheng ma) is subbed by serrulata (also called sheng ma in

the hong kong area). serrulata expels measles, but does NOt uplift

splenic yang qi. Since this is the main action we desire of sheng ma

and since sheng ma is an extremely important but underrated herb, this

is critical. Andy Ellis of springwind herbs has documented this matter

beyond doubt with materia medica entries and photographs from numerous

chinese language textbooks.

 

Consider the appearance of most bulk sheng ma. It appears as a brownish

slice of what appears to be a plant root. However, sheng ma is labeled

RHIZOMA cimicifuga. It is not rootlike in appearance, but rather has

distinct rhizomatous features. Rhizomes generally have a much more

networked meshlike appearance than roots. You are probably familiar

with RHIZOMA coptis, for example. Chinese botanical texts likewise

describe sheng ma/cimicifuga as having such an appearance and describe

sheng ma/serrulata as the more common rootlike material found in all

chinese pharmacies until the early nineties and perhaps still in most.

 

Despite clear and convincing evidence, I was not allowed to introduce

the correct sheng ma when I worked at OCOM, perhaps because to do so

would be an admission of a serious quality control problem within our

field. Once again, we need to rely on those who can access source

material to make these decisions. This is not for bureaucrats and

administrators; it is for ethicists and scholars.

 

For a fun time, order some true sheng ma from springwind. you will be

amazed. Who said bu zhong yi qi tang can't REALLY treat prolapse? It

sure as heck can, if the right herbs are actually in the formula. bu

zhong is a real heinous example because with sheng ma and dang gui often

subbed with worthless herbs and ginseng subbed with the worthy but

milder dang shen, who knows? also, li dong yuan calls ren shen sweet,

warm and HEAT CLEARING. Does dang shen clear heat? I have never seen

such a reference and in fact it is often considered problematic in heat

conditions, so is the typical bu zhong patent really good for yin fire?

I doubt it.

[Guest guest]

Sorrry Folks

I do not know KPC where or what this is. I take it it is a pharmacy (I

generally use Treasures of the East in NY). Could you give me more info?

Jim

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone-

I try to only use fresh herbs in my clinic, but I occasionally use Bu Zhong,

Shen Ling, Liu Wei, and Tian Wang in pill form for light cases. I do not

trust pills very much, but have had success in these so-called light cases. I

also plan to add a few MinTong powders, such as Wu Ling San. For Xiao Yao

San, I buy powdered herbs from the wholesaler and mix it myself. I get all my

herbs from Asia Naturals in San Francisco, as the proprietor there is a

grower in china and is attempting to keep the herbs as organic and

non-sprayed (at the airport) as possible. She also has many varieties of

specific herbs which vary in quality, price and province grown. Some may look

different than expected based on the cut of the root, sheng ma being a prime

example.

 

Please tell me more about the substitution issue - I dont like the sounds of

this. What has been substituted for ji xue teng and the others mentioned?

 

One other question - in this area, about 4 out of 5 kids are being put on

riddlin. Have any of you successfully substituted herbs for this? I usually

use homeopathy for these cases, but would like to find an herbal formula as

well. Thanks.

Gina

[Guest guest]

Todd et al.

 

The Taiwanese herbal extracting companies at large do a good job of correct

identification of medicianals. My preferred source is Qualiherb, a US

subsidiary of Sheng Chiang Pharmaceuticals. These people sustain the lion's

share of the market in Taiwan and the product is excellent. They can be

reached at 800-533-5907. I have no interest in the company other than as a

customer and a friend.

 

 

wrote:

 

> TLuger ()

>

> I use mainly concentrated powders from KPC. I find them to be more

> reliable than raw herbs. I only practice parttime, so I cannot maintain

> a bulk pharmacy of sufficient freshness. I have found that quality

> varies too much for effective prescribing when I have bulk formulae

> filled outside my clinic. Basically, if I can't see the herbs myself,

> then I want them somewhat standardized or batch tested for potency. KPC

> does this, plus as far as I know they are the only extract company that

> uses correctly identified sheng ma, ban xia, dang gui, ji xue teng and

> ban lan gen.

>

> This herb substitution problem was a major issue a few years ago, got

> little press, then disappeared. I suspect that most of the herbs listed

> above used in patent medicine made both here and in china are made from

> substitute species that DO NOt have the properties of the correct item.

>

> EXAMPLES:

>

> cimicifuga (sheng ma) is subbed by serrulata (also called sheng ma in

> the hong kong area). serrulata expels measles, but does NOt uplift

> splenic yang qi. Since this is the main action we desire of sheng ma

> and since sheng ma is an extremely important but underrated herb, this

> is critical. Andy Ellis of springwind herbs has documented this matter

> beyond doubt with materia medica entries and photographs from numerous

> chinese language textbooks.

>

> Consider the appearance of most bulk sheng ma. It appears as a brownish

> slice of what appears to be a plant root. However, sheng ma is labeled

> RHIZOMA cimicifuga. It is not rootlike in appearance, but rather has

> distinct rhizomatous features. Rhizomes generally have a much more

> networked meshlike appearance than roots. You are probably familiar

> with RHIZOMA coptis, for example. Chinese botanical texts likewise

> describe sheng ma/cimicifuga as having such an appearance and describe

> sheng ma/serrulata as the more common rootlike material found in all

> chinese pharmacies until the early nineties and perhaps still in most.

>

> Despite clear and convincing evidence, I was not allowed to introduce

> the correct sheng ma when I worked at OCOM, perhaps because to do so

> would be an admission of a serious quality control problem within our

> field. Once again, we need to rely on those who can access source

> material to make these decisions. This is not for bureaucrats and

> administrators; it is for ethicists and scholars.

>

> For a fun time, order some true sheng ma from springwind. you will be

> amazed. Who said bu zhong yi qi tang can't REALLY treat prolapse? It

> sure as heck can, if the right herbs are actually in the formula. bu

> zhong is a real heinous example because with sheng ma and dang gui often

> subbed with worthless herbs and ginseng subbed with the worthy but

> milder dang shen, who knows? also, li dong yuan calls ren shen sweet,

> warm and HEAT CLEARING. Does dang shen clear heat? I have never seen

> such a reference and in fact it is often considered problematic in heat

> conditions, so is the typical bu zhong patent really good for yin fire?

> I doubt it.

>

> > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

I've been using Lotus Herbs, primarily in pill form, though they also

provide powders. I also like the Brion granulated, but they are pricey.

And I like the China Herb Company liquids but they are VERY expensive. They

are also careful about using organic and unsprayed.

 

And Dr. Zhao in Santa Fe makes very strong liquid formulas that are very

effective, I find, but so terrible tasting!

 

I've been experimenting a lot with different companies the last few years.

 

Catherine Hemenway, Dipl. Ac.

Balanced Living Acupuncture

Tucson, Arizona

 

Talking Turtle Productions, Inc.

Continuing education workshops in

Complementary medicine

talkingturtle

[Guest guest]

China herb makes an excellent product that is not at all cost effective.

In addition, they are not being honest or they are naive about their

herb sourcing. They use the same suppliers as everyone else. China has

NO regulatory infrastructure to guarantee organic or unsprayed. If

someone was told that by a grower, I doubt there was proof of any kind.

 

This combination of misrepresentation and high cost will cause this

company to cease its existence very shortly. I have not used Brion in

years because of quality control issues. KPC is cheaper and better and

the subbing issue is no small matter. However, lets talk about cost.

Any herb formula that provides a chinese style dosage is going to cost

the patient from 2-3 dollars per day. Pills are much cheaper, because

the amount of herbs used is much smaller per dose, however the extracts

are definitely cheaper per gram.

 

I am curious, who gets results like in the chinese studies using low

dose pills. If anyone out there has reversed prostate hypertrophy,

brought hep c under control or relieved autoimmune symptoms with pills,

please let me know. And remember, there is a big difference between a

happy patient and an effective formula. Placebo effects run as high as

90% in private practice. The proof is in long term remission, complete

cure or objective proof, like lab tests. Any cures out there?