Guest guest Posted December 27, 1999 Report Share Posted December 27, 1999 Hi Karen , Jonh Chen of Lotus herbs teaches a class on interactions of western drugs with chinese medicine. - Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden < > Monday, December 27, 1999 07:59 AM Re: Lupus DX - TCM or Western... > Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden > > <<I've found that when a patient is taking Western meds it sometimes > masks = > symptoms and I'm not good enough at uncovering the root.->> > > Me either. Can anyone recommend a book on the energetics of western > medications? > > Karen Vaughan > CreationsGarden > *************************************** > Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. > " The biggest disease today is not leprosy or tuberculosis, but rather the > feeling of being unwanted. " --- Mother Teresa > > ______________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1999 Report Share Posted December 27, 1999 Hi folks I believe that even though the Western drugs are creating changes in a person's pattern - that new pattern is what I am called upon to treat since it is what they are manifesting right at the moment. To treat otherwise is to move away from the principle of tresating what is here and now. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1999 Report Share Posted December 27, 1999 I think the reality is a bit more complex than this. patterns have root and branch. The Shang Han Lun calls the phenomenon a 'transmuted pattern', caused by inappropriate treatment, or a more complex development of a simple pattern. There are mixtures of vacuity and excess, hot and cold, etc., that have to be sorted out. Treating what you see implies that you have a well-developed vision, judgement and diagnostic acumen. . . ..otherwise you are just skimming the surface of what is there. The reason why I am commenting so strongly on this point is nothing personal, JE. . . .It is just that so many students and practitioners I know have heard this dogma, and end up giving superificial sloppy treatments as a result. >JEChaffee > >Hi folks >I believe that even though the Western drugs are creating changes in a >person's pattern - that new pattern is what I am called upon to treat since >it is what they are manifesting right at the moment. To treat otherwise is to >move away from the principle of tresating what is here and now. >Jim > >>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 1999 Report Share Posted December 27, 1999 This is true. . . . But his material is more of a pharmacological view of herbal medicine than TCM pharmacological views of drugs. > " Alighta Averbukh " <alighta > >Hi Karen , >Jonh Chen of Lotus herbs teaches a class on interactions of western drugs >with chinese medicine. >- >Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden >< > >Monday, December 27, 1999 07:59 AM > Re: Lupus DX - TCM or Western... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Thank you Z'ev I agree but also feel that if you do not treat what is present at the moment, but only what 'theoretically' should be present given a pre-copnceived pattern or disease, then you are failing to do justice to what is hapening to the person at this point in time. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Dear Z'ev, Please take the following response as genuinely friendly reparte..... I agree regarding your general perception of practitioners new and seasoned, however, the " well-developed vision, judgement and diagnostic acumen. . . " is part and parcel of our trade and caution is well placed regarding assumption of the skill sets of practitioners positively or negatively. Shang Han Lun is often a useful model for analyzing iatrogenically induced disease processes in modern times. Another useful model is the formlaic one. The impact of pharmaceuticals on the system may also be viewed from this point: that toxic or low grade medicinals are frequently used in a formula with herbs that modulate the complications and toxicity. Therefore, the pharmaceutical may be viewed as a component in a formula. The importance of addressing the compications of standard treament regimens must no be underestimated. Certainly the warp and woof of the individual constitution and the accumulation of postnatal insults must be taken into consideration for the development of a well thought out treament plan that includes short-medium-long term strategies. Sincerely, Will Morris wrote: > " " <zrosenberg > > I think the reality is a bit more complex than this. patterns have root > and branch. The Shang Han Lun calls the phenomenon a 'transmuted pattern', > caused by inappropriate treatment, or a more complex development of a > simple pattern. There are mixtures of vacuity and excess, hot and cold, > etc., that have to be sorted out. Treating what you see implies that you > have a well-developed vision, judgement and diagnostic acumen. . . > .otherwise you are just skimming the surface of what is there. > > The reason why I am commenting so strongly on this point is nothing > personal, JE. . . .It is just that so many students and practitioners I > know have heard this dogma, and end up giving superificial sloppy > treatments as a result. > > > > >JEChaffee > > > >Hi folks > >I believe that even though the Western drugs are creating changes in a > >person's pattern - that new pattern is what I am called upon to treat since > >it is what they are manifesting right at the moment. To treat otherwise is to > >move away from the principle of tresating what is here and now. > >Jim > > > >>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Dear Z'ev We were told, again and again, by our TCM practitioners/supervisors, teachers, that a pattern is what exists now. You must hunt dilligently to uncover root and branch and treat accordingly. If a person is taking Western pharmaceuticals, herbals of any kind, or any thing else that is influencing the state of the patterns, these must be taken into account and adjusted accordingly. If an antibiotic is creating a Repletion Cold pattern in the Stomach and affecting digestive processes, then some form of rebalancing is rquired. This is like assuming that a Wei syndrome is the same in all cases rather than probing deeply enough into the person's state of health and history to realize that there is more than the 'normal' pattern and treating accordingly. I am sure, Z'ev, that you do exactly this, and I would hope that others do the same - otherwise we are doing what a number of our western counterparts in the medical field are doing, treating by disease rather than by pattern. And this is what I mean by treating what is here and now present in the person - treating the totality of patterns being portrayed, placing emphasis on branch, root, acute-chronic etc as needed right now. I hope I do not belabor this point. Jim Chaffee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Will, Nice to have your contributions on the list! I generally try to also address medications as part of an overall treatment plan, especially with the herbal prescription being combined with them. However, we have little control of DOSAGES of pharmaceuticals, often given in excessive amounts and creating a good deal of toxicity. The 'treat what you see' quote, you must understand, I personally have seen abused as an excuse for ignoring vital symptoms and diagnostic information as not being 'relevant' to the situation at hand. It raises a personal red flag. >Will <will > >Dear Z'ev, >Please take the following response as genuinely friendly reparte..... > >I agree regarding your general perception of practitioners new and seasoned, >however, the " well-developed vision, judgement and diagnostic acumen. . . " >is part >and parcel of our trade and caution is well placed regarding assumption of the >skill sets of practitioners positively or negatively. > >Shang Han Lun is often a useful model for analyzing iatrogenically induced >disease >processes in modern times. Another useful model is the formlaic one. The >impact of >pharmaceuticals on the system may also be viewed from this point: that >toxic or >low grade medicinals are frequently used in a formula with herbs that >modulate the >complications and toxicity. Therefore, the pharmaceutical may be viewed as a >component in a formula. > >The importance of addressing the compications of standard treament >regimens must >no be underestimated. Certainly the warp and woof of the individual >constitution >and the accumulation of postnatal insults must be taken into consideration >for the >development of a well thought out treament plan that includes >short-medium-long >term strategies. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Hi all, I have been following this conversation but have not entered because I have only treated one lupus patient and, because of personal issues that have been a bit overbearing, however, I do have one thing to say as to the point Jim has been trying to make. I have been taught and have treated, to the best of my ability, what I see in my patients. I can't see how else to work. If we start making generalizations such as mentioned by Todd (ie yin supplementing herbs) then I believe we have lost the essence of CM. I don't want to belabor the point so I will quote Li Dong-yuan: " In case of arising of transmuted patterns, vary the fomula in accordance with the signs. " I think this sums it up quite neatly. Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture " Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously " Lao Tzu > JEChaffee > > Dear Z'ev > We were told, again and again, by our TCM practitioners/supervisors, > teachers, that a pattern is what exists now. You must hunt dilligently to > uncover root and branch and treat accordingly. If a person is taking Western > pharmaceuticals, herbals of any kind, or any thing else that is influencing > the state of the patterns, these must be taken into account and adjusted > accordingly. If an antibiotic is creating a Repletion Cold pattern in the > Stomach and affecting digestive processes, then some form of rebalancing is > rquired. > This is like assuming that a Wei syndrome is the same in all cases rather > than probing deeply enough into the person's state of health and history to > realize that there is more than the 'normal' pattern and treating > accordingly. I am sure, Z'ev, that you do exactly this, and I would hope that > others do the same - otherwise we are doing what a number of our western > counterparts in the medical field are doing, treating by disease rather than > by pattern. And this is what I mean by treating what is here and now present > in the person - treating the totality of patterns being portrayed, placing > emphasis on branch, root, acute-chronic etc as needed right now. > I hope I do not belabor this point. > Jim Chaffee > > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 1999 Report Share Posted December 28, 1999 Dear Jim (and group), I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this. I have learned, however, from Michael Broffman specifically, and the Nan Jing/Difficult Classic source-wise, that the present moment includes past events that have led up to the present moment. The present moment also projects out into the future. All this can be detected in pulse diagnosis (mai zhen). This is simply etiology (past) and prognosis (future). One of the most important aspects of Chinese medicine is its understanding of time and space (patholocation) in the phenomenon of human health and disease. One must relate to this from the present moment, but be able to look backwards and forwards to determine the course of the disorder and its treatment. >JEChaffee > >Dear Z'ev >We were told, again and again, by our TCM practitioners/supervisors, >teachers, that a pattern is what exists now. You must hunt dilligently to >uncover root and branch and treat accordingly. If a person is taking Western >pharmaceuticals, herbals of any kind, or any thing else that is influencing >the state of the patterns, these must be taken into account and adjusted >accordingly. If an antibiotic is creating a Repletion Cold pattern in the >Stomach and affecting digestive processes, then some form of rebalancing is >rquired. >This is like assuming that a Wei syndrome is the same in all cases rather >than probing deeply enough into the person's state of health and history to >realize that there is more than the 'normal' pattern and treating >accordingly. I am sure, Z'ev, that you do exactly this, and I would hope that >others do the same - otherwise we are doing what a number of our western >counterparts in the medical field are doing, treating by disease rather than >by pattern. And this is what I mean by treating what is here and now present >in the person - treating the totality of patterns being portrayed, placing >emphasis on branch, root, acute-chronic etc as needed right now. >I hope I do not belabor this point. >Jim Chaffee > >>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 1999 Report Share Posted December 29, 1999 Zev the key to what you said is that it is detectable, however subtle, thus you are still treating based on signs and symptoms, not speculation. The pulse may revel past and future, but that is indeed a sign. " " <zrosenberg Dear Jim (and group), I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this. I have learned, however, from Michael Broffman specifically, and the Nan Jing/Difficult Classic source-wise, that the present moment includes past events that have led up to the present moment. The present moment also projects out into the future. All this can be detected in pulse diagnosis (mai zhen). This is simply etiology (past) and prognosis (future). One of the most important aspects of Chinese medicine is its understanding of time and space (patholocation) in the phenomenon of human health and disease. One must relate to this from the present moment, but be able to look backwards and forwards to determine the course of the disorder and its treatment. >JEChaffee > >Dear Z'ev >We were told, again and again, by our TCM practitioners/supervisors, >teachers, that a pattern is what exists now. You must hunt dilligently to >uncover root and branch and treat accordingly. If a person is taking Western >pharmaceuticals, herbals of any kind, or any thing else that is influencing >the state of the patterns, these must be taken into account and adjusted >accordingly. If an antibiotic is creating a Repletion Cold pattern in the >Stomach and affecting digestive processes, then some form of rebalancing is >rquired. >This is like assuming that a Wei syndrome is the same in all cases rather >than probing deeply enough into the person's state of health and history to >realize that there is more than the 'normal' pattern and treating >accordingly. I am sure, Z'ev, that you do exactly this, and I would hope that >others do the same - otherwise we are doing what a number of our western >counterparts in the medical field are doing, treating by disease rather than >by pattern. And this is what I mean by treating what is here and now present >in the person - treating the totality of patterns being portrayed, placing >emphasis on branch, root, acute-chronic etc as needed right now. >I hope I do not belabor this point. >Jim Chaffee > >>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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