Pao Zhi and Spagyrics

[Guest guest]

Just a quick note to say that apart from the Blue Poppy books, there is not a

lot of information available. The Pao Zhi book was translated from French so

I'm going to try and pick up a French copy and meet the author when I go to

Europe in May. Sometimes things change in translations.

 

Herbal preparations and techniques have always taken a back seat to therapeutic

applications, both in the East and the West. Exept that most skilled physicians

made their own medecine. One of the reasons why TCM works so well is that there

is good stuff coming out of the orient, and as long as it keeps coming

everything will be fine. However, if the supply is interrupted, there will be

major problems.

 

When I see herbalists " prescribing " of certain types of processed Echinacea

(with the polysachs blown apart) at $12 a bottle or telling people to make a

goldenseal " tea " by pouring boiling water on a teaspoon of " tired " yellow powder

I see a great future for TCM as long as we are careful of quality.

 

There is not much else to do but to grow some of these Chinese herbs here and

" learn " how to process them by trial and error. We have the good stuff to

compare our work to and we have some litterature to work with.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

Gilbert

[Guest guest]

Gilbert,

 

> Just a quick note to say that apart from the Blue Poppy books, there is

not a lot of information available. The Pao Zhi book was translated from

French so I'm going to try and pick up a French copy and meet the author

when I go to Europe in May. Sometimes things change in translations.

 

I will be very interested to hear what comes out of your reading the French

version and you meeting with Philippe Sionneau.

 

> When I see herbalists " prescribing " of certain types of processed

Echinacea (with the polysachs blown apart) at $12 a bottle or telling people

to make a goldenseal " tea " by pouring boiling water on a teaspoon of " tired "

yellow powder I see a great future for TCM as long as we are careful of

quality.

 

Are you suggesting that Western herbalists are unqualified? Please keep in

mind that because of the recent surgence of herbal medicine in the West,

particularly the US, this as fostered a great deal of people to spend a

little time studying herbs (then, unfortunately or not, frequently calling

themselves herbalists). But as a Western herbalist who was first trained as

such I can assure you that there is a large number of well trained people

out there. We should be thankful for this resurgence of interest in herbs

because I believe it has a lot to do with why we have jobs as TCM

practictioners. Finally, I just want to say that even the " 'tired' yellow

powder " (I assume you mean Hydrastis, i.e. Goldenseal) is probably as good a

quality as most of the Chinese herbs being used in the US, which are

frequently dusty and old.

 

> There is not much else to do but to grow some of these Chinese herbs here

and " learn " how to process them by trial and error. We have the good stuff

to compare our work to and we have some litterature to work with.

 

Working on it!!!

Although the literature is a bit more scant in the West as far as clinical

info is concerned there is a fair bit and more is being produced as we

speak.

 

regards,

thomas

 

>

> Just some thoughts,

>

> Gilbert

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Thomas,

 

You wrote,

 

" I will be very interested to hear what comes out of your reading the French

version and you meeting with Philippe Sionneau. "

 

Well, I have to track him down. If he is really good, maybe we should think of

having him come over to give a seminar with hands on demos.

 

You wrote;

 

" Are you suggesting that Western herbalists are unqualified? Please keep in

mind that because of the recent surgence of herbal medicine in the West,

particularly the US, this as fostered a great deal of people to spend a

little time studying herbs (then, unfortunately or not, frequently calling

themselves herbalists). But as a Western herbalist who was first trained as

such I can assure you that there is a large number of well trained people

out there. We should be thankful for this resurgence of interest in herbs

because I believe it has a lot to do with why we have jobs as TCM

practictioners. "

 

I did not mean to say that western herbalists are unqualified.

 

What I am saying is that there is a lot of ignorance among (or should I say a

lot of opportunity for further educating) herbalists on the chemical properties

of herbs ie thermosensitivity, what dissolves what etc. Echinacea requires at

least 70 % alcohol tincture to extract most of the useful phytochemicals. It

does not like heat or fancy drying procedures.

 

The efficiency of the extraction can be evaluated by tating the marc. One of

the most efficient echinacea extractions I've done was extracting the fresh root

with wine spirits (about 94% alcohol)

 

You also wrote;

 

" Finally, I just want to say that even the " 'tired' yellow

powder " (I assume you mean Hydrastis, i.e. Goldenseal) is probably as good a

quality as most of the Chinese herbs being used in the US, which are

frequently dusty and old. "

 

Most of the alkaloids in hydrastis are insuluble in water, poorly soluble in

alcohol; and somewhat soluble in glycerine. What you get by pouring hot water

on raw root powder is what happens to go into suspension.

 

Here in Toronto, with a large Oriental population, stores that sell bad herbs do

not stay in business very well.

 

So most of the time, the best bet is to get capsules made with raw root powder.

 

It is interesting to note that China is exporting berberine chloride.

 

Gilbert

[Guest guest]

Gilbert-

 

>What I am saying is that there is a lot of ignorance among (or should

>I say a lot of opportunity for further educating) herbalists on the

>chemical properties of herbs ie thermosensitivity, what dissolves what

>etc. Echinacea requires at least 70 % alcohol tincture to extract

>most of the useful phytochemicals. It does not like heat or fancy

>drying procedures.

 

Well, it depends what you want to extract. 70% alcohol really _would_

bust out the polysaccharides, although it will get the isobutalymides and

polyacetylenes. Extracted alcohol-soluble isobutylamides have been shown

to be more effective than various water-soluble isolated constituents in

rats and those extract best in high proof alcohol. However there are a

number of different water-soluble components (including polysaccharides)

especially important to topical use, but also important to internal use.

Some of these are destroyed in a tincture of more than 30% alcohol. I

prefer to do a 2 part process, using high proof alcohol for some

constituents and mixing it with a water/glycerin or low proof alcohol

extraction. Another herbalist of my acquaintance decocts the roots, then

turns off the flame and adds grain alcohol to the hot liquid to get the

alcohol-soluble constituents, sometimes with additional echinacea roots

and seeds. (This can cause volcanic reactions, so use a large pot and a

range hood). HerbPharm's two step echinacea recently tested best of

major herbalist tinctures and it has both water and alcohol-soluble

constituents.

 

I generally get better quality western herbs than Chinese herbs,

especially since organic Chinese herbs tend not to be available. However

now that western herbalists are learning about differential diagnosis and

herbal energetics, treatment is becoming more effective. And _real_

herbalists of any stripe usually know how to extract what they want from

a plant (but it helps to have a good historical tradition of what is

effective.)

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

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Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are

not cherished'.- Sun Simiao

 

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[Guest guest]

With all due respect to everyone, I suspect we will see more and more

herb production being done in third world countries. For the same

reasons that manufacturing is now done elsewhere, American farmers

cannot justify the labor costs. I will not argue the merits or

drawbacks of this global reorganization, but merely point out its

reality. The only rapidly expanding and highly profitable segment of

the american agricultural market is organics. However, since a few

large companies will soon control the bulk of worldwide herbal product

manufacturing, the market for organic herbs will also be a niche one.

Thus, there are opportunities to grow and market organic, locally grown

chinese herbs and to make some money. But if herbal medicine is really

going to expand in the first world, I would wager that it will happen

with mainly commercial products. The high end products will be, as

always, for the elite or educated only. This is not my utopian vision,

it just is. If you really want to influence the growth of high quality

medicinal herbs, I think it would be far more effective to go where the

herbs are going to be grown, en masse, such as China, and attempt to

influence the growers. Finally, if we sever trade ties with China,

there will be much bigger problems than loss of herb supply. I don't

see that scenario happening.

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I earn my living assisting people who are exporting herbs, among other things.

I did not suggest that we sever trade relationships with China; I have a few

clients over there and I have a deep atachment for that country. I respectfully

suggest that you enquire where some of the " major " herbicides and insecticides

that are illegal to use here are being sold; where chemical manufacturing

facilities are being set up ie the political realities.

 

Look up some of the stuff the FDA is finding in some products. So what I am

saying is that a backup system should be established. Just think what would

happen if the FDA suddenly decided to ban aconitum.

 

Gilbert

[Guest guest]

Hi Karen,

 

Here is a list of chemicals in echinacea I pulled from Jin Dukes site. The

glycoside like compounds would be destroyed by heat in a decoction, breaking up

into simple sugars.

 

There are differing ways to make extractions according to the results you want.

I suggest that you take the mark from your 30% extraction and reextract it with

a 70% menstruum; you will see that some ingrdients had been left behind.. Or if

you pour a low alcohol extraction into a high alcohol one, you would expose the

chemicals to a high percentage of alcohol and " bust out the polysaccharides " .

There are two kinds of polysccharides, water soluble and not water soluble.

Polysaccharides are not always destroyed by 70% alcohol.

 

The other thing that should be taken into account is the production of

mucilaginous (sp) gel-like compounds whose chemical nature are not well

understood.

 

Gilbert

 

 

Chemicals in: Echinacea spp (Asteraceae) -- Coneflower, Echinacea

 

 

 

Chemicals

 

(+)-TARTARIC-ACID Plant: DUKE1992A

 

(E)-10-HYDROXY-4,10-DIMETHYL-4,11-DODECADIEN-2-ONE Plant: DUKE1992A

 

13-HYDROXYOCTADECA-(9Z,11E,15Z)-TRIENOIC-ACID Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

2,3-O-DIFERULOYLTARTARIC-ACID Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

2-METHYLTETRADECA-5,12-DIENE Plant: DUKE1992A

 

2-METHYLTETRADECA-6,12-DIENE Plant: DUKE1992A

 

2-O-CAFFEOYL-3-(5-(ALPHA-CARBOXY-BETA-(3,4,-DIHYDROXYPHENYL... Plant:

DUKE1992A

 

2-O-CAFFEOYL-3-O-CUMAROYLTARTARIC-ACID Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

2-O-CAFFEOYL-3-O-FERULOYLTARTARIC-ACID Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

2-O-CAFFEOYLTARTARIC-ACID Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

2-O-FERULOYLTARTARIC-ACID Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

3,5-DICAFFEOYL-QUINIC-ACID Plant: DUKE1992A

 

4,5-O-DICAFFEOYLQUINIC-ACID Plant: DUKE1992A

 

6-O-CAFFEOYLECHINACOSIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

ALKYLAMIDES Root 40 - 1,510 ppm DUKE1992A

 

ALPHA-PINENE Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

ALUMINUM Root 786 - 12,900 ppm DUKE1992A

 

APIGENIN Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

ARABINOGALACTAN Root: DUKE1992A

 

ASCORBIC-ACID Leaf 2,140 ppm; DUKE1992A Root 843 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

ASH Root 80,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

BEHENIC-ACID-ETHYL-ESTER Root: DUKE1992A

 

BETA-CAROTENE Root 2.2 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

BETA-FARNESENE Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

BETA-PINENE Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

BETA-SITOSTEROL Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

BETAINE Root: DUKE1992A

 

BORNEOL Plant: DUKE1992A

 

BORNYL-ACETATE Plant: DUKE1992A

 

CAFFEIC-ACID Plant: DUKE1992A

 

CALCIUM Root 3,290 - 7,760 ppm DUKE1992A

 

CARBONATE Root 7,100 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CARYOPHYLLENE Root 42 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CARYOPHYLLENE-EPOXIDE Root 26 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CHLORIDE Root 760 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CHLOROGENIC-ACID Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

CHROMIUM Root 19 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CICHORIC-ACID Flower 12,000 - 31,000 ppm DUKE1992A Root 6,000 - 21,000 ppm

DUKE1992A

 

CICHORIC-ACID-METHYL-ESTER Root 6,000 - 21,000 ppm DUKE1992A

 

COBALT Root 148 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

CYANADIN-3-O-(6-O-MALONYL-BETA-D-GLYCOPYRANOSIDE) Flower: DUKE1992A

 

CYANADIN-3-O-(BETA-D-GLYCOPYRANOSIDE) Flower: DUKE1992A

 

CYNARIN Root: DUKE1992A

 

DECA-(2E,4E,6E)-TRIENOIC-ACID-ISOBUTYLAMIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

DES-RHAMNOSYLVERBASCOSIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

DODECA-(2E,4E)-DIENOIC-ACID-ISOBUTYLAMIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

DODECA-(2E,6Z,8E,10E)-TETRAENOIC-ACID-ISOBUTYLAMIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

DODECA-2,4-DIEN-1-YL-ISOVALERATE Root: DUKE1992A

 

ECHINACEIN Root 10 - 100 ppm DUKE1992A

 

ECHINACIN Root: DUKE1992A

 

ECHINACOSIDE Root 3,000 - 17,000 ppm DUKE1992A

 

ECHINOLONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

EO Flower 600 - 6,000 ppm DUKE1992A Leaf 100 - 6,000 ppm DUKE1992A Root 50

- 40,000 ppm

DUKE1992A

 

EPISHIOBUNOL Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

FAT Root 13,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

FERULIC-ACID Plant: DUKE1992A

 

FIBER Root 111,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

FLAVANOIDS Leaf 3,800 - 4,800 ppm DUKE1992A

 

GERMACRENE-ALCOHOL Root: DUKE1992A

 

GERMACRENE-D Root: DUKE1992A

 

HEPTADECA-(8Z,11Z)-DIEN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

HETEROXYLAN Root 800 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

HUMULENE Root 8 - 12 ppm DUKE1992A

 

INULIN Root 59,000 - 200,000 ppm DUKE1992A

 

IRON Root 700 - 4,800 ppm DUKE1992A

 

ISOCHLOROGENIC-ACID Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

ISORHAMNETIN-3-RUTINOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

ISOTUSSILAGINE Plant 15 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

KAEMPFEROL Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

KAEMPFEROL-3-0-GLUCOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

KAEMPFEROL-3-0-RUTINOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

KILOCALORIES Root 2,800 /kg; DUKE1992A

 

L-PENTADECENE Root 400 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

LIMONENE Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

LUTEOLIN Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

LUTEOLIN-7-GLUCOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

MAGNESIUM Root 1,170 - 1,860 ppm DUKE1992A

 

MANGANESE Root 101 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

METHYL-P-HYDROXYCINNAMATE Essential Oil: DUKE1992A

 

MYRCENE Fruit: DUKE1992A

 

N-TRIACONTANOL Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

NIACIN Root: DUKE1992A

 

PALMITIC-ACID Root: DUKE1992A

 

PENTA-(1,8Z)-DIENE Root 400 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

PENTADECA-(8Z)-EN-11,13-DIYN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

PENTADECA-(8Z)-EN-2-ONE Root 4,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

PENTADECA-(8Z,11Z)-DIEN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

PENTADECA-(8Z,13Z)-DIEN-11-YN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

PENTADECA-8-EN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

PHOSPHORUS Root 790 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

POLYACETYLENES Root 20 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

POLYSACCHARIDES Root: DUKE1992A

 

PONTICAEPOXIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

POTASSIUM Root 3,140 - 8,090 ppm DUKE1992A

 

PROTEIN Root 92,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETAGETIN-7-GLUCOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN-3'-GLUCOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN-3-0-GALACTOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN-3-0-XYLOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN-3-ROBINOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

QUERCETIN-3-XYLOSYLGALACTOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

RHAMNOARABINOGALACTAN Root: DUKE1992A

 

RIBOFLAVIN Bark 12 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

RUTIN Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

RUTOSIDE Leaf: DUKE1992A

 

SELENIUM Root: DUKE1992A

 

SILICATE Root 15,340 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

SILICON Root 301 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

SITOSTEROL-3-BETA-O-GLUCOSIDE Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

SODIUM Root 90 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

STIGMASTEROL Shoot: DUKE1992A

 

SULFATE Root 2,450 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

TETRADECA-(8Z)-EN-11,13-DIYN-2-ONE Root: DUKE1992A

 

THIAMIN Root 2.6 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

TIN Root 17 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

TRIDECA-1-EN-3,5,7,9,10-PENTAYNE Root: DUKE1992A

 

TUSSILAGINE Root 15 - 60 ppm DUKE1992A

 

VANILLIN Plant: DUKE1992A

 

VERBASCOSIDE Root: DUKE1992A

 

WATER Root 749,000 ppm; DUKE1992A

 

ZINC Root 51 ppm; DUKE1992A

[Guest guest]

Gilbert,

 

> I did not mean to say that western herbalists are unqualified.

>

> What I am saying is that there is a lot of ignorance among (or should I

say a lot of opportunity for further educating) herbalists on the chemical

properties of herbs ie thermosensitivity, what dissolves what etc.

Echinacea requires at least 70 % alcohol tincture to extract most of the

useful phytochemicals. It does not like heat or fancy drying procedures.

 

I believe this is taught quite extensively in Western herbal medicine

schools, in fact far far far more than in any TCM school that I am aware of.

Other than that I won't address this any further as I think Karen already

did, quite adequetly. But I suspect by your responce that you have some bias

about which constituents are most valuable in echinacea. To the best of my

knowledge the jury is still out. Let us not forget those that taught us

foreigners how to use this plant used water to prepare it and I have found

it to work just fine. Is it the best way? I don't think so, but I wouldn't

bet my life on it.

 

> The efficiency of the extraction can be evaluated by tating the marc. One

of the most efficient echinacea extractions I've done was extracting the

fresh root with wine spirits (about 94% alcohol)

 

I would agree this is the best way that I have found to make a preparation

of echinacea and in fact many herbs, I might even go so far as to say most

herbs as you are going to get both alcohol and water soluble constituents

from the plant with this preparation technique.

>

> Most of the alkaloids in hydrastis are insuluble in water, poorly soluble

in alcohol; and somewhat soluble in glycerine. What you get by pouring hot

water on raw root powder is what happens to go into suspension.

 

I beg to differ here. The three " main " constituents are berberine,

hydrastine and canadine. Berberine is soluble in alcohol and is certianly

soluble in water otherwise huang lian and haung bai would be basically

useless in decoction, especially huang lian. Hydrastine is entirely soluble

in boiling alcohol, although not soluble in water. Finally, canadine in

soluble in alcohol but not water. Obviously there is more to hydrastis than

these three constituents, nevertheless your tipical good preparation, of

which there are many, will contain the bulk of these constituents. Even an

infusion of the powder will bring into solution some of the berberine and

for most people at home that is enough.

 

> Here in Toronto, with a large Oriental population, stores that sell bad

herbs do not stay in business very well.

 

I've never been to the China town in Toronto but the one in San Francisco,

which is to the best of knowledge is the largest in North America, supports

a large number of pharmacies that sell fair to poor quality herbs.

 

> So most of the time, the best bet is to get capsules made with raw root

powder.

 

of what?

 

> It is interesting to note that China is exporting berberine chloride.

 

Is this made from Huang Lian (Coptis chinensis) or synthesized?

 

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

Hello Thomas,

 

You wrote,

 

 

" I believe this is taught quite extensively in Western herbal medicine

schools, in fact far far far more than in any TCM school that I am aware of. "

 

I was trained in a Benedictine monastery that whose lab had prepared Medicines

since the 1200's. Believe me, what you learn in " Western " herbalist schools is

far from being the whole picture.

 

The chinese where using vinegar to create alkaloid acetates to increase

solubility in the 400's; we did not start such practices until 1400's.

 

You wrote;

 

" But I suspect by your responce that you have some bias

about which constituents are most valuable in echinacea. To the best of my

knowledge the jury is still out. Let us not forget those that taught us

foreigners how to use this plant used water to prepare it and I have found

it to work just fine. Is it the best way? I don't think so, but I wouldn't

bet my life on it. "

 

There is an infinite number of medicines you can make with an infinite number of

prepation methodologies. That is the whole goal of preparing.

 

" I would agree this is the best way that I have found to make a preparation

of echinacea and in fact many herbs, I might even go so far as to say most

herbs as you are going to get both alcohol and water soluble constituents

from the plant with this preparation technique. "

 

The alcohol dispalces the water in the plant, thus causing most of the

phytochemicals to come in solution. I have found it to work well with fresh

elecampane, bloodroot.

 

You wrote;

 

" I beg to differ here. The three " main " constituents are berberine,

hydrastine and canadine. Berberine is soluble in alcohol and is certianly

soluble in water otherwise huang lian and haung bai would be basically

useless in decoction, especially huang lian. Hydrastine is entirely soluble

in boiling alcohol, although not soluble in water. Finally, canadine in

soluble in alcohol but not water. Obviously there is more to hydrastis than

these three constituents, nevertheless your tipical good preparation, of

which there are many, will contain the bulk of these constituents. "

 

Like I said; " Most of the alkaloids in hydrastis are insuluble in water, poorly

soluble in alcohol; and somewhat soluble in glycerine. " Take some goldenseal,

put it in a Soxhlet extractor (a reflux apparatus). Early in the ethanol

extraction, alkaloids will start to precipitate. This can be corrected by

adding glycerine. As to the chinese herbs, these are prepared prior to

decoction.

 

You wrote;

 

" Even an

infusion of the powder will bring into solution some of the berberine and

for most people at home that is enough. "

 

I figure for what they are paying for the root, they should get the whole thing.

I've observed a muciladge aquaous extraction of fresh goldenseal used to treat

burns.

 

In general, people will get a better bang for the buck with root powder capsules

of goldenseal and echinacea. Leaf powder for feverfew.

 

As to the chinese chloride, I do not know how it is made.

 

Gilbert