Guest guest Posted January 29, 2000 Report Share Posted January 29, 2000 I really appreciate all the comments about intuition. The quality of the diagnostic process I was calling " intuition " I feel now (after reading all the comments) is actually trusting my first impression or observation and not second guessing myself or ignoring the observation. Specifically, I was thinking about one of my first patients, and elderly (mid 70's) woman with low back pain. Her daughter,with whom she lived, called me in to her home to treat her, to get her well so she could be sent across the state of Fla (from Miami to Tampa) by car to stay with another member of the family so the daughter could go on a long vacation. As I leaned close to administer to her, I smelled a hint of alcohol about her but didnt mention it. I denied to myself what I had experienced. She had already told me she didnt have much of an appetite and only sipped a cold drink all day. She also admitted to feeling nauseus most of the time. Another acupuncturist failed to help her at all with that. The next visit she said she woke up at 3 am retching with only bitter bile fluid coming up. Liver! She admitted taking a sip of her drink to feel better-and what was the drink I finally asked - bourbon and coke!!! She was an active alcoholic, it was not being treated, her daughter was keeping her supplied with bourbon and coke. I ended up withdrawing from the case because I felt the woman was very ill with liver disease and I was in over my head. I felt like they had an elephant in their living room and expected me to get rid of the stink. I didnt want to be another practitioner who would fail. I was vexed by the whole thing for weeks. the main thing of this whole long story is that if I had commented or asked when I smelled the alcohol I wouldnt have been blindsided after the later treatment. I also wonder if I should have ignored her alcoholism and continued treating her low back pain (which could have been from her diseased liver) since I was not called in to help with the alcoholism. I have a patient now who is " addicted " (her words) to coca-cola. But she want tx for her rampant puriritis and goes haywire when I tell her she has to get off the coke and drink water (she doesnt like the taste) what to do when a patient has habits that fight the tx? I'm sorry this email is all over the place but as a first year practioner I have many concerns. Thanks everyone. Sherril Gold, Dipl. Ac. sherrilgol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2000 Report Share Posted January 29, 2000 Your perceptions, to me are right on. . . ..all power to you and your work. As I said in an earlier post, patients who fail to do what it takes to get better don't get better. I agree, the old lady's back pain is possibly due to the alcohol damaging the liver. I see many people addicted to soft drinks. I have one patient who is diabetic, responding beautifully to herbal medicine and acupuncture, working on his diet. . . except, he must have his diet coke. . . .he cannot stop. At least he is willing to work on doing so. At the acupuncture college where I teach, many students are carrying the burden of thinking that their needles moxas and herbs should relive symptoms of disease instantaneously, as per textbook prescriptions. Unless there are diet behavioral and lifestyle changes, (remembering that most TCM practitioners are seeing at least 80% chronic complex disorders), success will be limited. >Sherrilgol > >I really appreciate all the comments about intuition. The quality of the >diagnostic process I was calling " intuition " I feel now (after reading all >the comments) is actually trusting my first impression or observation and not >second guessing myself or ignoring the observation. Specifically, I was >thinking about one of my first patients, and elderly (mid 70's) woman with >low back pain. Her daughter,with whom she lived, called me in to her home to >treat her, to get her well so she could be sent across the state of Fla (from >Miami to Tampa) by car to stay with another member of the family so the >daughter could go on a long vacation. As I leaned close to administer to >her, I smelled a hint of alcohol about her but didnt mention it. I denied to >myself what I had experienced. She had already told me she didnt have much >of an appetite and only sipped a cold drink all day. She also admitted to >feeling nauseus most of the time. Another acupuncturist failed to help her >at all with that. The next visit she said she woke up at 3 am retching with >only bitter bile fluid coming up. Liver! She admitted taking a sip of her >drink to feel better-and what was the drink I finally asked - bourbon and >coke!!! She was an active alcoholic, it was not being treated, her daughter >was keeping her supplied with bourbon and coke. I ended up withdrawing from >the case because I felt the woman was very ill with liver disease and I was >in over my head. I felt like they had an elephant in their living room and >expected me to get rid of the stink. I didnt want to be another practitioner >who would fail. I was vexed by the whole thing for weeks. the main thing of >this whole long story is that if I had commented or asked when I smelled the >alcohol I wouldnt have been blindsided after the later treatment. I also >wonder if I should have ignored her alcoholism and continued treating her low >back pain (which could have been from her diseased liver) since I was not >called in to help with the alcoholism. I have a patient now who is > " addicted " (her words) to coca-cola. But she want tx for her rampant >puriritis and goes haywire when I tell her she has to get off the coke and >drink water (she doesnt like the taste) what to do when a patient has habits >that fight the tx? I'm sorry this email is all over the place but as a first >year practioner I have many concerns. > >Thanks everyone. > >Sherril Gold, Dipl. Ac. >sherrilgol > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Looking for the lowest refinance rate for your mortgage? >GetSmart.com can help. We'll help you find the loan you >need - quick, easy, and FREE click ><a href= " http://clickme./ad/GetSmartRefinance " >Click Here</a> > >------ > >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 Sherril, By thinking out loud, you have done what Will was speaking of. That is, you have uncovered the actual clinical observation, in this case, a smell, that formed the basis of your " intuition " . After a while, smell is certainly something one begins to associate with certain diagnoses, as is body type and facial characteristics. These thing start to form an impression in one's unconscious immediately upon meeting a patient. So you might sometimes catch an odor of a patient and think, oh that's a kidney xu patient, for example. Later, you confirm that with signs and symptoms and are pleased with your hunch. But yet this was a learned unconscious association, not a mystical insight. I don't think websters has the last word on matters such as intuition, though. I think the process of uncovering one's unconscious observations, as described by Will, leads to the development of a conscious intuitive faculty that can be accessed at will, not just appear as random hunches like the primitive instinct described in the dictionary. Whether this is a spiritual faculty or a natural process is semantic hair splitting, so I prefer to couch this discussion in more naturalistic terms. It is also important to me that the development of TCM maintain no allegiance to any particular set of religious principles, such as karma, etc. Amongst Chinese philosophers, there was considerable disagreement on these issues; for example, many taoists did NOT believe in reincarnation and thus quested for physical longevity and immortality because of this very belief. Thus, I must respectfully disagree with Thomas Avery in this area. I was very much limiting my definition of intuition to include the experiences of this lifetime. If one can justify these past life " intuitions " rationally and clinically, fine. But to accept on faith the experiences of previous lifetimes as somehow contributing to one's current medical abilities just opens the door to an " anything goes " mentality. I am not suggesting that Thomas personal practice embodies this type of attitude, as he is clearly quite varied and deep in his studies. But that many in alternative medicine use this type of stance as a reason to NOT study and just dismiss all learning as worthless, since they already know this stuff from some past life anyway. [This message contained attachments] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 We have a saying in Judaism (on lineage and ancestry): what you inherit is a bunch of zeros. . . .but the one you put in front (i.e. your effort) makes those zeros into a number. >TLuger () > >Sherril, > >By thinking out loud, you have done what Will was speaking of. That is, >you have uncovered the actual clinical observation, in this case, a >smell, that formed the basis of your " intuition " . After a while, smell >is certainly something one begins to associate with certain diagnoses, >as is body type and facial characteristics. These thing start to form >an impression in one's unconscious immediately upon meeting a patient. >So you might sometimes catch an odor of a patient and think, oh that's a >kidney xu patient, for example. Later, you confirm that with signs and >symptoms and are pleased with your hunch. But yet this was a learned >unconscious association, not a mystical insight. >I don't think websters has the last word on matters such as intuition, >though. I think the process of uncovering one's unconscious >observations, as described by Will, leads to the development of a >conscious intuitive faculty that can be accessed at will, not just >appear as random hunches like the primitive instinct described in the >dictionary. > >Whether this is a spiritual faculty or a natural process is semantic >hair splitting, so I prefer to couch this discussion in more >naturalistic terms. It is also important to me that the development of >TCM maintain no allegiance to any particular set of religious >principles, such as karma, etc. Amongst Chinese philosophers, there was >considerable disagreement on these issues; for example, many taoists did >NOT believe in reincarnation and thus quested for physical longevity and >immortality because of this very belief. > >Thus, I must respectfully disagree with Thomas Avery in this area. I >was very much limiting my definition of intuition to include the >experiences of this lifetime. If one can justify these past life > " intuitions " rationally and clinically, fine. But to accept on faith >the experiences of previous lifetimes as somehow contributing to one's >current medical abilities just opens the door to an " anything goes " >mentality. I am not suggesting that Thomas personal practice embodies >this type of attitude, as he is clearly quite varied and deep in his >studies. But that many in alternative medicine use this type of stance >as a reason to NOT study and just dismiss all learning as worthless, >since they already know this stuff from some past life anyway. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2000 Report Share Posted January 30, 2000 All, > " " <zrosenberg > > We have a saying in Judaism (on lineage and ancestry): what you inherit is > a bunch of zeros. . . .but the one you put in front (i.e. your effort) > makes those zeros into a number. I completely agree, well mostly, that is that there could be or perhaps is something that encourages those zeros to add up more quickly in some cases. I'm not sure but perhaps........... I'm not saying that I have some sort of supernatural powers or that what I revealed about myself makes me a better practitioner, but what I am saying is that I believe that intuition is important in the clinic, WHEN USED APPROPRIATELY! That has been my experience! I totally agree with what you said about some " alternative practitioners " not studying because they believe that they have been gifted with some sort of mystic powers from past lives. This is, to me, absurd and could lead to tragic results in the clinical situation. Further, I just what to clarify that this is not in any way a part of what I do. I combine intense study, late nights, early mornings, spiritual practice, exercise with a dab of intuition and mysticism. I'm excited that this forum exists in the belief that it will bring this art to a new level or greatness........... Respectfully, Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture " Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously " Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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