A cancer case study

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

Thanks for the warm welcome. In the sometimes dark and uncertain first days

of a practice, friendly and familiar voices are such a gift.

First day, second hour of my business being open Iin walks a 50 y.o. woman

who has been diagnosed with metastatic cancer of the rectum of unknown

origin. Last June, a " polyp " was discovered during the rectal aspect of a

routine gynecological exam. A colonoscopy and biopsy found the " polyp " to be

an adenocarcinoma, 2cm long. The docs wanted to shrink it before removing it

so they scheduled her to undergo 5 1/2 weeks of chemo and radiation in

August. The patient could only tolerate 3 1/2 weeks because of the extreme

fatigue and rectal/lower abdominal pain that ensued. In October she underwent

another series of biopsies of her rectum, cervix and uterus in which they

couldn't find the rectal tumor. Finally, in December she has an ultrasound

and CT which found nothing remarkable except microscopic cancers in her

pelvic lymph nodes and lymphatic congestion around her aorta.

During all of these exams, she discovered that she has the antibodies for Hep

C. Her AST/ALT levels have been consistently elevated and her liver is

slightly enlarged with hemangiomas present in the right lobe.

And now that she has had time to recover from the chemo and radiation she

feels great. Before discovering that she has cancer she felt great and had no

bowel problems except the scantiest bleeding on occasion. And she wants

nothing to do with western medicine.

Now for a review of her systems.

Sp/St/Digestion: fruit smoothies and lots of salads, vegetarian; lots of

borborygmus and bloating, emotional eating; BM- 2x/day, soft and light

colored, comes out in pieces, occasional urgency; hx of itchiness; no hx of

hemorrhoids; brusies easily

Heart/Spirit: mentally restless, poor memory, sometimes hard to fall asleep

Liver/GB: recently had stitching pain in the ribs and felt lumps in rib area

Lung: nothing remarkable

Kid/UB:nocturia and frequent urination but she says she drinks alot

GYN: hx of uterine fibroids (myomectomy) and cervical dysplasia; 2

pregnancies, 2 abortions; since chemo/rad has been menopausal; before

chemo/rad has regular 28 day cycle with 7-10 days of heavy flow of sometimes

light/sometimes dark, always clotty flow; rarely any menstrual movement pain;

no PMS complaints; fibrocystic breasts but no discomfort

General: sensitive to cold, hot flashes of the head and chest since

chemo/rad; dry itchy skin (hepatitis?/ swimming?), dry red eyes (swimming)

Lifestyle: unemployed, in the middle of PhD. studies when cancer was dx;

practices yoga (hatha) 3x/week, swims everyday; with a partner for 1 year;

lives alone; feels lots of support from family and friends

Exams:

Tongue: pale red with a dusky red dotted tip (H and Lung areas); enlarged

with pinched teethmarks; diffuse shallow horizontal cracks; no coat in front,

thick yellow coat in rear; distended dark purple veins underneath; swelling

of the left sublingual region

Pulse: overall soggy; empty right guan; hardness/choppiness in left guan;

weak left chi

Lunulae: small thumbnails only

Abdomen: tight hypochondriac regions. I am pretty sure I felt her enlarged

liver which felt hard. Very soft and soggy below the umbilicus. Tight Ren

above the umbilicus.

General Observation: Tall, thin upper body, heavy hips and thighs. Mildly

dark circles under her eyes. A defensive shen that doesn't want to let onto

the fear she's going through.

Current regime: This is the fun part. She mostly has been treated/advised by

a " certified natural health practitioner " friend who lives in Pennsylvania.

This friend has prescribed a host of western herbs based on muscle testing.

This friend also an uncle practicing homeopathy in Pakistan who has advised

the patient to take 12 different remedies in potencies of 30c to 1M, 2ce

daily. The patient's partner is Chinese and has friends in China who have

recommended taking bai hua she she cao, ban zhi lian and ling zhi. The

patient has also seen the local muscle testing nutritionist guru who has

recommended essiac tea and almost all of the antioxidants known to humanity.

She also uses saunas and jacuzzis daily. Then of couse there is the mostly

raw diet. The patient is hesistant to give any of these things up even though

I told her how hard it is to know what is really going on when her regime is

so chaotic. I understand that she wants to do everything she can short of

more chemo and radiation and that one or more of these things ( or the

chemo/rad) may have contributed to the disappearance of her tumor. I think

that I may be able to convince her to stop taking the muscle tested herbs and

the homeopathics because of the way that they were prescribed. My other

priority is convincing her of the benefits og the Spleen friendly diet and

the detriment of excessive sweating.

As a brand new practitioner should I even be taking this case? Boston is only

about 1 hour to the north and I am sure that there is somebody who

specializes in cancer up there. Does anybody know of such a specialist? I

would be happy to refer her. I don't think that she has the utmost confidence

in me for understandable reasons- a diploma that says 1999 probably being the

biggest one. I am also probably not exuding much savy. I do think that one

way or another she has to see somebody who practices Chinese medicine because

we are the only practitioners who are going to give her Spleen the time of

day.

I've diagnosed her with Sp qi/yang xu w/ damp accumulation. Dampheat and

blood stagnation in the lower jiao. Kidney yang/yin xu with destabilized

yang. Liver qi depression w/ yin/blood xu. Diffuse phlegm nodulation.

I have only seen her once. Before I prescribe herbs, I want to evaluate her

pulse and tongue again and make a tour of her lymph nodes to see the extent

of her lymph congestion. Because she is going to continue to do the essiac

and the ban zhi lian, bai hua she she cao, etc, my treatment will focus on fu

zheng, namely supplementing Spleen and Kidney yang with supportive yin

supplementation, qi and blood coursing, and phlegm softening/transforming.

Any comments, suggestions, questions or cancer specialists in the Boston area?

 

Kristin Wisgirda, Bridgewater, MA

kwisgirda

508-697-3592

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristen

I am not going to make sugestions concerning her care - however I do like to

in-depth portrayal and analysis that you made. What I did want to comment on,

from my own experience, is not to throw out kinesiological (muscle testing)

findings out of hand. Based upon personal experience from a long-standing

practitioner of kinesiology, I have found it invaluable in my own personal

health. Obviously not al practitioners are the same, in that field as in

ours, but there may be more truth than not in what happened.

 

Jim Chaffee

Marlboro Ma

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/10/00 11:35:10 AM, Kwisgirda writes:

 

<< I don't think that she has the utmost confidence

in me for understandable reasons- a diploma that says 1999 probably being the

biggest one. I am also probably not exuding much savy. I do think that one

way or another she has to see somebody who practices Chinese medicine because

we are the only practitioners who are going to give her Spleen the time of

day. >>

 

If you let he know that you are involved with a study group with some of the

best acupuncturists and herbalists in the country and are using her case as a

case study, she may be more interested in doing what youy say, as it will

have the clout of this group behind you. You are doing well and your

suggestions are warranted. Just be non-judgemental and consistent in your

work with her, and eventually she will do more and more of what you suggest,

to her eventual benefit. Talk about how the juicing and raw foods are great

for breaking down the bad guys and warm foods and drink are for building,

which is what she needs to do right now, especialy in the winter,

especiallyif she is vegetarian. She may still be warm as a vestige of the

chemicals and radiation and the juicing may be detoxing that, but when it is

finished, she will be freezing her butt off in the summer and need tobuild.

Be there for her.

David Molony

[Guest guest]

Kristin,

 

Excellent account of your patient, thorough and detailed.......

This is obviously a difficult case and the circumstances that this patient

has surrounded herself with make it even more difficult.

If I could make a suggestion (if you do take the case) it would appear that

the liver pathology is the most glaring with the HCV, pale stools, pain,

enlarged liver, elevated enzymes, etc. Although supplementation may be

necessary remember to regular/warm earth as it would appear that the qi is

not particularly vacuous (no fatigue or loss of appetite) the soft stools

could be more damp than sp qi xu. I have seen patient who do a lot of

smoothies get overwhelmed with damp but once that is resolved the sx that

could have been inturprited as qi xu dissappeared.

ban lan gen and Milk Thistle for HCV are critical also consider either jiang

huang or yu jin. The ling zhi is also excellent for HCV not to mention CA.

There has also been significant research on hu huang lian for HCV.

Perhaps you could suggest fresh juice rather than smoothies, 2/3 carrot 1/3

beet is a good fresh juice for hepatitis, have her juice some ginger into it

to help offset the dampness of the juice. This could be a middle ground that

she would be willing to meet you at and would still be very beneficial. I

would also suggest green tea for the CA especially liver CA.

This may be a difficult case but if you can't find anyone to refer her to

take baby steps and move forward.

 

Respectfully,

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

Formulator and Consultant Summer Jo's (botanicals)

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

While muscle testing practitioners may have amazing impact on the individuals in

their practice, the procedure is not replicable. This is not meant to be

pejorative, it is just the way it is.

 

For students and at this point myself, my decision is to not use this method. I

spent many years and dollars on training in various subjective assessment

methods

such as muscle testing, vega testing and the like. My conclusion is that every

time I bypass the refinement of my clinical skills regarding the deeper

traditions of Oriental medicine, I have shorted myself and my subsequent patient

population of the real beauty and depth this medicine has.

 

Sincerely, Will Morris

 

 

JEChaffee wrote:

 

> JEChaffee

>

> Hi Kristen

> I am not going to make sugestions concerning her care - however I do like to

> in-depth portrayal and analysis that you made. What I did want to comment on,

> from my own experience, is not to throw out kinesiological (muscle testing)

> findings out of hand. Based upon personal experience from a long-standing

> practitioner of kinesiology, I have found it invaluable in my own personal

> health. Obviously not al practitioners are the same, in that field as in

> ours, but there may be more truth than not in what happened.

>

> Jim Chaffee

> Marlboro Ma

>

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> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/10/00 9:54:03 PM, zrosenberg writes:

 

<< I have also had kinesiologists muscle-test my prescriptions

with no knowledge of the ingredients. When used for musculoskeletal

balancing, I have no problem with kinesiology, This is what, in my

opinion, it is best at. For internal medicine, it is no substitute for

pulse, tongue palpation and questioning diagnosis, and a thorough knowledge

of materia medica. >>

 

The above is true, but it can also be used as a confirmatory in certain

cases. Some people have such obviious reactions to substances,

kinestheticaly, that it can be sued. The problem arises when people get lazy

and use it for everything, including as a " substitute for

pulse, tongue palpation and questioning diagnosis, and a thorough knowledge

of materia medica. >> "

David Molony

[Guest guest]

For some reason, I didn't receive Kristen's case via e-mail. I would like

to voice my agreement with Will's analysis of kinesiological testing. I

find the use of kinesiology in NAET, for example, offensive. Especially

offensive is the use of kinesiology by health professionals in

muscle-testing herbs, vitamins and other medicinal substances, especially

when they have no real knowledge of the substances they are testing. For

example, one health professional muscle-tested coptis tincture for a

patient with a swollen, damp pale tongue with toothmarks and soft,

forceless pulse. He had no knowledge of the qualities of coptis

whatsoever. I have also had kinesiologists muscle-test my prescriptions

with no knowledge of the ingredients. When used for musculoskeletal

balancing, I have no problem with kinesiology, This is what, in my

opinion, it is best at. For internal medicine, it is no substitute for

pulse, tongue palpation and questioning diagnosis, and a thorough knowledge

of materia medica.

 

 

 

 

 

>Will <will

>

>While muscle testing practitioners may have amazing impact on the

>individuals in

>their practice, the procedure is not replicable. This is not meant to be

>pejorative, it is just the way it is.

>

>For students and at this point myself, my decision is to not use this

>method. I

>spent many years and dollars on training in various subjective assessment

>methods

>such as muscle testing, vega testing and the like. My conclusion is that every

>time I bypass the refinement of my clinical skills regarding the deeper

>traditions of Oriental medicine, I have shorted myself and my subsequent

>patient

>population of the real beauty and depth this medicine has.

>

>Sincerely, Will Morris

>

[Guest guest]

don't forget dan shen of course.

 

these are only herbs w/o formula but they are important for this type of

case.

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

Formulator and Consultant Summer Jo's (botanicals)

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

Zev and Will

 

I must be very blunt about this topic. I agree completely. Muscle

testing has no place in the history of TCM and is a completely contrived

unreplicable modality. Any success with this method is clearly placebo

or chance. I have released quite a few patients over the years who have

insisted on muscle or pendulum testing my formulae ingredient by

ingredient. Invariably, they will insist on deleting key ingredients.

When practitioners do this, I cannot view this as but an excuse to not

study. And it seems to go hand in hand with this idea that one can

" intuitively " diagnose a patient, which we have already discussed ad

nauseum. Don't even get me started on NAET. Not only is it deceptive to

patients, but is has no basis in either TCM or modern science. Like

other forms of muscle testing, it is pseudoscience, pure and simple.

 

 

 

[This message contained attachments]

[Guest guest]

Dave's advice is good advice and for those of you who missed the case,

Kristen was the first to dismiss the bogus kinesiology in her original

presentation.

 

 

 

[This message contained attachments]

[Guest guest]

Please note Will

I knew this was controversial and I was not advocating people to use it for

their practice - simply do not eliminate out-of-hand a procedure not well

understood as if it were a fraud. No scientific experiment is truly

reproducible - it is pone of the underlying fallacies of the scientific

method that should have been realized by the end of high school physics.

Those people who know me from my work know that I analyse and match by TCM

principles for my work.

However, it is similar to the intuition argument that was seen here a while

ago. A person'e body truly does know what is good and bad for it - as we

learn to tap into the deeper aspects of being - we may find many things that

we did not previously believe were possible.

Jim Chaffee

[Guest guest]

One last word on this subject:

 

I do not use muscle testing in my work. I feel that I am a TCM (in its

strictest sense of using the methodology systematized by the PRC)

practitioner and as such, that is the dictums and methodology that I follow.

I feel Like Bob Flaws, that we need to learn one thing and do it extremely

well. I do not believe in nor practice eclectic medicine. I do not use

japanese, korean, vietnamese-french acupuncture to treat people - I use TCM

medical styles. I do not mix western herbs and chinese and aryuvedic herbs,

becuase their underlying theories do not conincide with one another. Perhaps,

some day as I become more proficcient in what Western herbs or Aryuvedic

herbs do fFROM A TCM VIEWPOINT, then i will add them to my repertoire, but

not now. Too many styles create not expertise but a jack-of-all-trades affair

(in my opinion only).

 

We, as a group, look back to the Sages who wrote the Su Wen, Ling Shu, Nan

Jing, Wen Bing Lun, etc as the people who established the type of medicine

that we use. The original developers of this style of medicine were

pragmatists - the Divine Husbandman ate many medicinal plants per day to

determine their charactreristics and properties (by traditiona at least). If

they did certain things, he used them for that. He had no underlying system

to determine what they should or should not do. The same as with disease.

People watched and catergorized as they went along. If the diseases ran true

to course within the system, they kept it there - if not they created new

systems to account for the variations - hence the school of Shang Han, Wen

Bing, San Jiao Bing, etc.

 

From a Western Scientific point of view, our medical theories are hog-wash,

non-scientific. That is why so many western practitoners are very skeptical

about what and how we do it. Change perspective and add some experience, and

voila - all of a sudden our systems make sense from an experiential and

pragmatic point of view.

 

We expect others to respect what we do because of the age of the system and

the amount of time we spend trying to become expert in it - and rightfully

so. However, neither Western scientific medicine, nor the entirety of all the

traditional medicines in the world explain and cure everything. If we, like

our western counterparts, throw out everything else because it doesn't fit

the mold, then we are just a closed minded as they are. " There is more to

this world than is what in your books Horatio " .

 

We also need to reconsider our place in treating people. If we would not

throw out a western drug or procedure because it has side effects that are

severe, or because they have not been scientifically validated (as more than

50% of western treatment procedures are not - this is from the NIH), simply

because they are professional practitioners and we consider it unethical to

interfere with their treatments, we may need to consider doing that with

other forms of treatment as well. Ultimately, what I am saying is, that we

need to keep an open mind about possibilities that are not part of our world.

 

I read an article in the Paradigm book site stating, by paraphrase, it is

more important to consider whether a treatment works, than to prejudge it by

where it comes from - either traditional medical systems or western

scientific systems, or someplace else.

 

I intend to say no more. I am not advocating for NAET or muscle testing in

our profession. I am advocating keeping an open mind for the things that can

work that we do not use because we do not have the expertise.

 

Jim Chaffee

[Guest guest]

I think, David, what you are referring to here are Chinese medical health

professionals who have been trained in, for example, o-ring diagnosis? I

am talking about, primarily, chiropractors, kinesiologists, massage

therapists and others who have no knowledge of Chinese medical tradition or

its modalities, and who use these methods to confirm.

 

 

 

 

>Acuman1

>

>

>In a message dated 2/10/00 9:54:03 PM, zrosenberg writes:

>

><< I have also had kinesiologists muscle-test my prescriptions

>with no knowledge of the ingredients. When used for musculoskeletal

>balancing, I have no problem with kinesiology, This is what, in my

>opinion, it is best at. For internal medicine, it is no substitute for

>pulse, tongue palpation and questioning diagnosis, and a thorough knowledge

>of materia medica. >>

>

>The above is true, but it can also be used as a confirmatory in certain

>cases. Some people have such obviious reactions to substances,

>kinestheticaly, that it can be sued. The problem arises when people get lazy

>and use it for everything, including as a " substitute for

>pulse, tongue palpation and questioning diagnosis, and a thorough knowledge

>of materia medica. >> "

>David Molony

>

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>

>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 percent

>Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards

>Points, no hidden fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get the

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><a href= " http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative1 " >Click Here</a>

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>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

I think putting Vega testing and homeopathy in the same class is like

putting Brittany Spears and Bach in the same class musically. Homeopathy

has a tremendous data base of proving medicines, symptoms signs, and

treatment of patients to back it up. In my opinion, homeopathy is a

medicinal system, not a technique.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Acuman1

>

>

>In a message dated 2/10/00 11:57:50 PM, TLuger writes:

>

><< Don't even get me started on NAET. Not only is it deceptive to

>patients, but is has no basis in either TCM or modern science. Like

>other forms of muscle testing, it is pseudoscience, pure and simple. >>

>

>There are aspect of it that are useful, but as usually happens, by the time

>it gets to the 20th person putting his/her 2 cents in, it is useless. I have

>seen some incredible results with NAET, regardless of my pragmatic cynicism

>of it, but I go nowhere near the extent I read about and see other people

>using it. The same goes for Vega testing and Homeopathy, both of which

>require practice and study. All these things have their uses but one has to

>view the patient from a OM viewpoint and treat with what one sees from that

>perspective, using what you find elsewhere diagnostically as conirmation and

>what you may find theraputically from within the OM paradigm. Difficult, but

>do able. The most difficult thing, from my perspective relative to all these

>pendulum style things, is that our consious judgements override our

>subconsious, which is capable of making decisions based on things far more

>subtle than our senses.

>As a result, there are few people who are capable of making clinical

>judgements and god knows how many people they mistreated to get to that

>point, if it was their intent to reach the point of intuitive treatment in

>the first place. If, however, the practitioner just developed sensitivity

>over many years of practice, as some of our mentors have, then what " just

>feels right " most times is.

>Incidentally, I feel that medical " science " as we know it today is just hooey

>designed to keep those in power there to make money indefinitily. They just

>rode the coat tails of physical sicence that has made all the inroads of our

>civilization. Unless something is observed for generations, we can never know

>what it will exactly do.

>Just my opinion.

>David Molony

>

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>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 percent

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>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/11/00 11:12:58 AM, zrosenberg writes:

 

<< " " <zrosenberg

 

I think putting Vega testing and homeopathy in the same class is like

putting Brittany Spears and Bach in the same class musically. Homeopathy

has a tremendous data base of proving medicines, symptoms signs, and

treatment of patients to back it up. In my opinion, homeopathy is a

medicinal system, not a technique.

 

>>

 

VEga testing has been around since the 50's and has evolved in a similar

fashion. That doesn't mean that all people who use Vega test are at the same

level. Sort of like the difference between classical and complex homeopathy,

or using single Chinese herbs (a la Pharmaprint, which incidentally is

working heavily in China now with the Western docs at the Chinese style NIH)

or formulations which are more classical.

David Molony

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the tip, David. I'm now looking at the Pharmaprint website

(www.pharmaprint.com, of course) to see what is going on with them. I'd

appreciate more info from you on what they are doing with the Chinese

authorities.

 

 

 

 

>Acuman1

>

>

>In a message dated 2/11/00 11:12:58 AM, zrosenberg writes:

>

><< " " <zrosenberg

>

>I think putting Vega testing and homeopathy in the same class is like

>putting Brittany Spears and Bach in the same class musically. Homeopathy

>has a tremendous data base of proving medicines, symptoms signs, and

>treatment of patients to back it up. In my opinion, homeopathy is a

>medicinal system, not a technique.

>

> >>

>

>VEga testing has been around since the 50's and has evolved in a similar

>fashion. That doesn't mean that all people who use Vega test are at the same

>level. Sort of like the difference between classical and complex homeopathy,

>or using single Chinese herbs (a la Pharmaprint, which incidentally is

>working heavily in China now with the Western docs at the Chinese style NIH)

>or formulations which are more classical.

>David Molony

>

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>

>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 percent

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>

>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/13/00 5:17:24 PM, zrosenberg writes:

 

<< Thanks for the tip, David. I'm now looking at the Pharmaprint website

(www.pharmaprint.com, of course) to see what is going on with them. I'd

appreciate more info from you on what they are doing with the Chinese

authorities.

 

>>

 

Someone called and was trying to sell me their stuff, and upon interrogation,

I got that info from them(expansion into Chinese herbs and connection with

the Chinese Govt.). Not much more at this point though. Their stock is moving

up, though.

DAVe

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/13/00 5:17:24 PM, zrosenberg writes:

 

<< Thanks for the tip, David. I'm now looking at the Pharmaprint website

(www.pharmaprint.com, of course) to see what is going on with them. I'd

appreciate more info from you on what they are doing with the Chinese

authorities.

 

>>

 

And, oh yes. I will be going to Beijing in April for the Intl meeting, and

will undoubtedly find much going on there.

David Molony

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-11 11:12:56 EST, you write:

 

<<

I think putting Vega testing and homeopathy in the same class is like

putting Brittany Spears and Bach in the same class musically. Homeopathy

has a tremendous data base of proving medicines, symptoms signs, and

treatment of patients to back it up. In my opinion, homeopathy is a

medicinal system, not a technique.

>>

 

Z'ev-

 

From a person who studied homeopathy diligently for 12 years before feeling

confident enough to treat a patient on my own, I thank you for saying this.

 

I must have missed Kristen's case too, but I have been out of town for days

and it probably fell off the system. Sounds quite intrigueing from the

response it generated- I'm still trying to catch up.

 

I agree with the comments about not employing muscle-testing to validate

treatments. I've seen far too many practitioners relying on this for

confirmation.

However, the effect of negative visual stimuli on on the body can be

demonstrated through this method. Just try arm-strength testing with a simple

smiley face and then re-test with a frowning face. If a cartoon face can

effect us this strongly, it more than underscores such teachings as isolating

pregnant women from all negative situations regardless of intensity.

 

Glad to be back on board.

Gina Gabrielle