[Herbal administration, was Fwd: FYI - nephropathy]

[Guest guest]

Clearly compliance is a reason why new forms of administration are used.

But all forms are not going to be identical in their effects. I want to

know what I am trading off when I give a powdered extract or tincture, or

even vary decocting measures.

 

I think that while powdered extracts (and capsules) are easier to

overdose with as a function of high concentration, decoctions may lead to

underdosing or patient non-compliance. I rarely run into digestion as an

issue with decoctions, infusions or tinctures, but I do with eating fresh

herbs or green powders, pills and capsules. (My clients are receiving

primarily Western herbs although I am studying TOM.) I give the latter

because the patient can take it if they forget to boil up the herb, but

usually insist that part of the dosage be taken in a form they can taste.

 

I've been wondering about the merits of double decoction vs. longer

decoction, especially since patients are more likely to burn the herbs

when dealing with smaller amounts of liquid. (Ask your patients who take

boiled herbs how many actually do the second decoction and add it back-

I'll bet a fair number actually boil once, longer with more water, then

add water to the same pot and herbs for subsequent boilings.) I've been

experimenting with a crockpot which has the advantage of retaining

volatiles, not tying up a patient's stove and appears to mimic

traditional usage.

 

I think it likely that some compounds will not survive a longer simmer

intact, particularly from leaves. We may keep the lid on and retain the

steam, but the longer cooking probably degrades other compounds- as we

expect it to when we use long decoctions to neutralize toxicity from fu

zi. But doesn't this breakdown also happen in the process Don St. Clair

just described for making powdered extracts?

 

Pamela's Wan honeyballs bring to mind some ayurvedic anupunas

(preparation forms) where the carriers are important in delivering

medicinal actions. Powdered herbs in honey are not the same as powdered

herbs alone, and may, in those cases she mentioned, sufficiently

compensate for the lack of decoction. (But probably won't be identical

either.) In ayurveda, the same medicine taken with ghee may reduce

Pitta, with sesame oil may reduce Vata but with honey may reduce Kapha.

There is probably something in TCM with equivalent references.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

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" If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain. " --Dolly Parton

 

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[Guest guest]

Karen,

 

Nice to see you on this list, I wish I had known you were in NYC as I was

there over the summer and would have liked to meet you......

 

As to your quarry, I use the powdered extracts quite a bit, in fact at this

time I am working out of some one else's office and that is basically all

I'm using. I started using them in 1995 and have come to really like them.

Patients take them and so compliance is high (major bonus). The aromatic

herbs are aromatic and when taking them myself I find them to be very good.

I prefer decoctions over all other forms of administering herbs, in most

cases, obviously there are some times that tinctures are better, etc. I

don't believe that students are learning to underdose, my opinion. BTW the

PCOM NYC herbs do not come from Spring Wind (perhaps with few exceptions).

 

I have never seen a problem with digestion using the powdered extracts,

except with formulas that I might expect to have a problem with anyway. I

like the powdered form so much that I am investigating finding a company to

make them with Western herbs so I can use them together. Also remember that

the Eclectics and other docs of the 18th and 19th and early 20th century

used these form a fair bit, although I don't think their methods were nearly

as good as the ones used today in Taiwan. BTW I have experimented making

them myself with pretty good success, but it is very time consuming and I

simply don't have the time. Got to go........

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

Formulator and Consultant Summer Jo's (botanicals)

 

 

" Serve others and cultivate yourself simultaneously "

Lao Tzu

 

 

> Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden

>

> Clearly compliance is a reason why new forms of administration are used.

> But all forms are not going to be identical in their effects. I want to

> know what I am trading off when I give a powdered extract or tincture, or

> even vary decocting measures.

>

> I think that while powdered extracts (and capsules) are easier to

> overdose with as a function of high concentration, decoctions may lead to

> underdosing or patient non-compliance. I rarely run into digestion as an

> issue with decoctions, infusions or tinctures, but I do with eating fresh

> herbs or green powders, pills and capsules. (My clients are receiving

> primarily Western herbs although I am studying TOM.) I give the latter

> because the patient can take it if they forget to boil up the herb, but

> usually insist that part of the dosage be taken in a form they can taste.

>

> I've been wondering about the merits of double decoction vs. longer

> decoction, especially since patients are more likely to burn the herbs

> when dealing with smaller amounts of liquid. (Ask your patients who take

> boiled herbs how many actually do the second decoction and add it back-

> I'll bet a fair number actually boil once, longer with more water, then

> add water to the same pot and herbs for subsequent boilings.) I've been

> experimenting with a crockpot which has the advantage of retaining

> volatiles, not tying up a patient's stove and appears to mimic

> traditional usage.

>

> I think it likely that some compounds will not survive a longer simmer

> intact, particularly from leaves. We may keep the lid on and retain the

> steam, but the longer cooking probably degrades other compounds- as we

> expect it to when we use long decoctions to neutralize toxicity from fu

> zi. But doesn't this breakdown also happen in the process Don St. Clair

> just described for making powdered extracts?

>

> Pamela's Wan honeyballs bring to mind some ayurvedic anupunas

> (preparation forms) where the carriers are important in delivering

> medicinal actions. Powdered herbs in honey are not the same as powdered

> herbs alone, and may, in those cases she mentioned, sufficiently

> compensate for the lack of decoction. (But probably won't be identical

> either.) In ayurveda, the same medicine taken with ghee may reduce

> Pitta, with sesame oil may reduce Vata but with honey may reduce Kapha.

> There is probably something in TCM with equivalent references.

>

> Karen Vaughan

> CreationsGarden

> ***************************************

> Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

> " If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain. " --Dolly Parton

>

> ______________

> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!

> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!

> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:

> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

>

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> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-02-18 11:40:28 EST, you write:

 

<< I think it likely that some compounds will not survive a longer simmer

intact, particularly from leaves. We may keep the lid on and retain the

steam, but the longer cooking probably degrades other compounds- as we

expect it to when we use long decoctions to neutralize toxicity from fu

zi. But doesn't this breakdown also happen in the process Don St. Clair

just described for making powdered extracts? >>

 

Its probably very simple to put the roots in first to boil, then turn the

temperature down and put in the leaves/flowers/more fragile volatile

containing parts to cook for a shorter time--perhaps even MORE effective than

the traditional cooking pot. I tend to toss in fresh or fresher peppermint in

mentha containing formulae, for instance...

 

Don

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/18/00 8:40:20 AM, creationsgarden writes:

 

>I think that while powdered extracts (and capsules) are easier to

>overdose with as a function of high concentration, decoctions may lead

>to

>underdosing or patient non-compliance.

 

I think overdosing may also come from powdered herbs because of compliance in

the first place! So many people don't get around to making up the herbs on a

continual basis, but do take powdered and pill herbs consistently.

 

There may be an advantage to doing a historical research article on dosages

and lengths of time of treatment for our profession to be able to peruse.

Something that we could all use as reference with all the information in one

place.

If it is already out there, please let me know.

Dave Molony