Guest guest Posted February 26, 2000 Report Share Posted February 26, 2000 Dear members, I am a Dutch sinologist studying Chinese medicine, third year, materia medica. I'm preparing myself to do translation work in this field, which means that I am trying to read chinese sources (classic & modern) to become familiar with the terminology. Besides that I'm getting more and more interested (of course) in the actual practice and am very happy to be able to follow and learn from the discussions over here. I found out about this list reading 's good overview article on 'knotty diseases' (JCM no. 62), at the end of which there was a reference to his homepage-url. The good thing for me about the recent 'censorship'-discussion, was that I looked up Bob Flaws article (the ''Lack of Focus " one) and am seriously considering to set up a discussion here in the Netherlands about its contents. It really bothers me a lot, when I look around and see TCM-students setting up practices after only four years of part-time (!) studies. Traineeship-periods are astonishing short mostly and certainly not come near the notion of 'having felt 10.000 pulses' (an ideal and mystical number I admit). Carrying on the heritage of such a vast and rich knowledge really deserves more devotion (like Flaws' great achievements with his time-consuming translation work!). I'm always happy to encounter such devotion and therefore proud to be a member of this list. If you have suggestions about chinese-language materials which really have to be translated, please be so kind to notify me. I'm planning a trip to China next month and can add it to my library-shopping-list. Sorry for the long intro, now a concrete herb-question. You may not believe it, but even in the most cannabis-liberal country of the world, it is not possible to obtain huomaren through the herb suppliers. Now of course we are able to buy the seeds on almost every corner, but I want to know what exactly are the differences in action with the (standard?) replacement: linum. Thanks for thinking this over. Best wishes for everyone, Nicolaas Herman Oving jetnik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2000 Report Share Posted February 27, 2000 regarding humaren. As far as I know they are illegal in China also. Plus they would fumigated on importing (which I noticed I'll still have bugs crawling around if I neglect the sealed bags even after 6 months). I've been told the seeds are sterilized to prevent accidental sprouting. The seeds and plants are also illegal in Santa Cruz, Ca. but there is no shortage of either here. So I often questioned the value of the seeds also. I've only used the seeds to treat mild constipation. Locally the seeds may produce a mild euphoria but side affects (headache, nausea more common) and no one ever complained of diarrhea! To Your Health, Ed Kasper LAc. http://HappyHerbalist.com Galerie Z.T. [jetnik] Sunday, February 27, 2000 2:38 AM introduction & herbquestion ... we are able to buy the seeds [humaren] on almost every corner, but I want to know what exactly are the differences in action with the (standard?) .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2000 Report Share Posted February 27, 2000 Wow! This makes two great postings in one evening! (Karen's Chinese essential oil post as well). Thanks Phillip, for inspiring me. . . .and giving me more mingmen fire to teach with! >Philip Riviere <riviere > > > " Galerie Z.T. " <jetnik > >>If you have suggestions about chinese-language materials which really have >>to be translated, please be so kind to notify me. > >Nicolaas, > >I wrote this article in 1993.If that can help you.. >I 'd love to hear your feedback on it. > >Philippe Riviere > > >Learning Chinese (Mandarin) normally requires three things: > Perseverance in effort, memorizing the (basic 3000) characters and >strict learning discipline to enable the realization of the first two points. > > The study of authentic Traditional (TCM) requires to >follow a > guide (teacher/mentor..) who possesses at the same time evident >practical and theoretical experience,who is open to different theories of >traditional medical philosophy and who is willing to pass on his knowledge >in a clear and honest fashion. > > The two disciplines demand of the student a wholehearted devotion; they >are not > without danger or side-effects unless within a well defined framework. > > At the present time, the world contains many good sinologists and some >very good > ones. However there are very few (but there are some) good translations >of the classic books which make up the corpus of TCM. > Why is this? The few works which have been translated into Western >languages do not have usually detailed glossaries to explain the subtlety of >the ideas behind TCM. > By detailed glossaries are meant not the personal theories of a given >author, even if he is a sinologist, but an annotated translation of the best >identifiable Chinese commentaries dealing with these basic classical works >on TCM such as, for example, the >Neijing . > > I will now give you three examples showing the difficulties of >comprehension which result from literal translations without appropriate >commentaries. > > 1. In chapter 74 of Suwen (Zhi zhengyao dalun), on the subject of the > transformations of the six qi, Taiyang is called 'cold water' (hanshui). >Why is Taiyang so called? A sinologist, even if skilled in classical >Chinese, won't without research or additional information, be able to >understand (and therefore to communicate to the reader) this notion which is >specific to TCM. > > 2. In chapter 18 of the Lingshu (Yingwei shenghui), there is a passage >saying: > " Blood and qi have different names but they are identical. That is why a >person who is bleeding does not sweat. If he sweats, he has no blood. That >is why man has two >deaths but no two births. " This passage is easy to translate but is not >understandable. > What is the meaning of this passage? To understand it one must also know >the basics of TCM. > > 3. In chapter 5 of the Suwen (Yingyang yingxiang dalun), it is said: > " The East gives birth to the wind; the wind gives birth to the wood; the >wood gives birth to the sour flavor; the sour flavor gives birth to the >liver. " What is the meaning of this passage which is easy to translate but >the sense of which is not clear? > > This passage in fact represents the basic framework of all evolution: >Why does one > consider the " East " as the start-point? In the universe, at night, one >sees nothing. The first thing (in other words: the start-point) that one >sees is the sun which rises in the East. > Why does the East give birth to the " wind " ? The wind here is the Yangqi >which > comes from the East. The yang is the comparable to the rays of the sun >which appear in the East. During the day this force of energy is called the >Wind. > That is why Qibo says to Huangdi that the East gives birth to the Wind. >It is this movement, this activity of the yang which is going to make the >Wood grow. > > Why does the Wind gives birth to the Wood? The Wood represents everything >that grows on the earth,that is to say plants and vegetation. > >It's the rise of the yangqi which gives birth to life. The growth of >vegetation also gives birth to the five tastes represented symbolically by >the Sour flavor. > The 5 tastes will promote growth which is the stage after birth. Wood >gives > birth to Sour flavor but in this paragraph 'Sour flavor' represents all >the foodstuffs which allow growth. Once produced the Sour flavor is going to >allow development. > But " Sour flavor " and " Liver " are the same nature. Each thing gives >birth to another part of itself. > > The words employed to describe the life cycle are simple but >aesthetic,emblematic. > The word " Liver " does not here mean the organ " liver " but it >recapitulates for mankind the different successive elements that have been >elsewhere to describe the universe. > > One could give many other similar examples. One can see that it is >necessary to have a knowledge of Chinese civilization when studying the >Neijing to be able to > understand its profound meanings. But it is equally necessary to know >the base and > subtle reasoning of TCM to be able to grasp the sense of the Neijing as >it is very > easy to misunderstand the texts (even for a native Chinese ) and to give >them a wrong explanation. > > Furthermore there are different historic schools and consequently >different interpretations. How is it possible to recognize those which are >good from those are less so? It is virtually impossible for a beginner to >distinguish what is verifiable from what is rather less verifiable. And so >it is necessary to refer to the ancient commentaries. In doing so one can no >longer stray too far, being in possession of clear (but sometimes different) >explanations. > > To sum up, the study of TCM and the understanding of its basic texts >involve two > important series of difficulties: > > 1. The vocabulary is very technical: > For example, what is a Jue? What are the different meanings of Bi in the >Neijing? > What are the differences between Shui, Shi (damp), Yin (Rheum), and Tan? > > 2. Out of all the commentaries on classical texts, which should be >particularly > selected? > > The sinologist will tackle a TCM text as: > 1. A text with lexicological problems. > 2. A text with historical environment to be seen in relation to and >compared with other sources of the same order. > 3. A text to be translated in order to be understood by the reader! >but,too often, the text is confined inside the narrow field of literal >translation without taking into account the clinical utility of the >information and its reality in front of illness; >and as a result the translation becomes sterile and at best an object of >university curiosity. > > Yet the TCM texts should be constantly studied for their clinical >richness which can be of daily utility; and it is only through a teamwork >among competent and honest >practitioners with open minded sinologists who want their translations to be >of value. > > > > >------ >GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates >as low as 0.0% Intro APR and no hidden fees. >Apply NOW! >http://click./1/967/4/_/542111/_/951713886/ >------ > >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2000 Report Share Posted March 1, 2000 > " Galerie Z.T. " <jetnik > >< > > introduction & herbquestion >Sun, 27 Feb 2000 03:38:12 +0100 > >Dear members, > >I am a Dutch sinologist studying Chinese medicine, third year, materia >medica. I'm preparing myself to do translation work in this field, which >means that I am trying to read chinese sources (classic & modern) to become >familiar with the terminology. Besides that I'm getting more and more >interested (of course) in the actual practice and am very happy to be able >to follow and learn from the discussions over here. > >I found out about this list reading 's good overview article on >'knotty diseases' (JCM no. 62), at the end of which there was a reference >to >his homepage-url. The good thing for me about the recent >'censorship'-discussion, was that I looked up Bob Flaws article (the ''Lack >of Focus " one) and am seriously considering to set up a discussion here in >the Netherlands about its contents. It really bothers me a lot, when I look >around and see TCM-students setting up practices after only four years of >part-time (!) studies. Traineeship-periods are astonishing short mostly and >certainly not come near the notion of 'having felt 10.000 pulses' (an >ideal >and mystical number I admit). Carrying on the heritage of such a vast and >rich knowledge really deserves more devotion (like Flaws' great >achievements >with his time-consuming translation work!). > >I'm always happy to encounter such devotion and therefore proud to be a >member of this list. > >If you have suggestions about chinese-language materials which really have >to be translated, please be so kind to notify me. I'm planning a trip to >China next month and can add it to my library-shopping-list. > >Sorry for the long intro, now a concrete herb-question. >You may not believe it, but even in the most cannabis-liberal country of >the >world, it is not possible to obtain huomaren through the herb suppliers. >Now >of course we are able to buy the seeds on almost every corner, but I want >to >know what exactly are the differences in action with the (standard?) >replacement: linum. Thanks for thinking this over. > >Best wishes for everyone, > >Nicolaas Herman Oving > >jetnik > >Welcome, In response to your question about books to translate from Chinese, how about " LI YUE PIAN WEN " (1864) (printed in 1870) (aka " Waizhi yishuo " ) by Wu Shiji (1806-1886) (hao:Wu Shangxian) recommended by a member of , Philip Riviere re: External Herbs. We have so few good references in English for External Applications. Thanks for your great work. Abey > > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2010 Report Share Posted May 16, 2010 " Galerie Z.T. " <jetnik >If you have suggestions about chinese-language materials which really have >to be translated, please be so kind to notify me. Nicolaas, I wrote this article in 1993.If that can help you.. I 'd love to hear your feedback on it. Philippe Riviere Learning Chinese (Mandarin) normally requires three things: Perseverance in effort, memorizing the (basic 3000) characters and strict learning discipline to enable the realization of the first two points. The study of authentic Traditional (TCM) requires to follow a guide (teacher/mentor..) who possesses at the same time evident practical and theoretical experience,who is open to different theories of traditional medical philosophy and who is willing to pass on his knowledge in a clear and honest fashion. The two disciplines demand of the student a wholehearted devotion; they are not without danger or side-effects unless within a well defined framework. At the present time, the world contains many good sinologists and some very good ones. However there are very few (but there are some) good translations of the classic books which make up the corpus of TCM. Why is this? The few works which have been translated into Western languages do not have usually detailed glossaries to explain the subtlety of the ideas behind TCM. By detailed glossaries are meant not the personal theories of a given author, even if he is a sinologist, but an annotated translation of the best identifiable Chinese commentaries dealing with these basic classical works on TCM such as, for example, the Neijing . I will now give you three examples showing the difficulties of comprehension which result from literal translations without appropriate commentaries. 1. In chapter 74 of Suwen (Zhi zhengyao dalun), on the subject of the transformations of the six qi, Taiyang is called 'cold water' (hanshui). Why is Taiyang so called? A sinologist, even if skilled in classical Chinese, won't without research or additional information, be able to understand (and therefore to communicate to the reader) this notion which is specific to TCM. 2. In chapter 18 of the Lingshu (Yingwei shenghui), there is a passage saying: " Blood and qi have different names but they are identical. That is why a person who is bleeding does not sweat. If he sweats, he has no blood. That is why man has two deaths but no two births. " This passage is easy to translate but is not understandable. What is the meaning of this passage? To understand it one must also know the basics of TCM. 3. In chapter 5 of the Suwen (Yingyang yingxiang dalun), it is said: " The East gives birth to the wind; the wind gives birth to the wood; the wood gives birth to the sour flavor; the sour flavor gives birth to the liver. " What is the meaning of this passage which is easy to translate but the sense of which is not clear? This passage in fact represents the basic framework of all evolution: Why does one consider the " East " as the start-point? In the universe, at night, one sees nothing. The first thing (in other words: the start-point) that one sees is the sun which rises in the East. Why does the East give birth to the " wind " ? The wind here is the Yangqi which comes from the East. The yang is the comparable to the rays of the sun which appear in the East. During the day this force of energy is called the Wind. That is why Qibo says to Huangdi that the East gives birth to the Wind. It is this movement, this activity of the yang which is going to make the Wood grow. Why does the Wind gives birth to the Wood? The Wood represents everything that grows on the earth,that is to say plants and vegetation. It's the rise of the yangqi which gives birth to life. The growth of vegetation also gives birth to the five tastes represented symbolically by the Sour flavor. The 5 tastes will promote growth which is the stage after birth. Wood gives birth to Sour flavor but in this paragraph 'Sour flavor' represents all the foodstuffs which allow growth. Once produced the Sour flavor is going to allow development. But " Sour flavor " and " Liver " are the same nature. Each thing gives birth to another part of itself. The words employed to describe the life cycle are simple but aesthetic,emblematic. The word " Liver " does not here mean the organ " liver " but it recapitulates for mankind the different successive elements that have been elsewhere to describe the universe. One could give many other similar examples. One can see that it is necessary to have a knowledge of Chinese civilization when studying the Neijing to be able to understand its profound meanings. But it is equally necessary to know the base and subtle reasoning of TCM to be able to grasp the sense of the Neijing as it is very easy to misunderstand the texts (even for a native Chinese ) and to give them a wrong explanation. Furthermore there are different historic schools and consequently different interpretations. How is it possible to recognize those which are good from those are less so? It is virtually impossible for a beginner to distinguish what is verifiable from what is rather less verifiable. And so it is necessary to refer to the ancient commentaries. In doing so one can no longer stray too far, being in possession of clear (but sometimes different) explanations. To sum up, the study of TCM and the understanding of its basic texts involve two important series of difficulties: 1. The vocabulary is very technical: For example, what is a Jue? What are the different meanings of Bi in the Neijing? What are the differences between Shui, Shi (damp), Yin (Rheum), and Tan? 2. Out of all the commentaries on classical texts, which should be particularly selected? The sinologist will tackle a TCM text as: 1. A text with lexicological problems. 2. A text with historical environment to be seen in relation to and compared with other sources of the same order. 3. A text to be translated in order to be understood by the reader! but,too often, the text is confined inside the narrow field of literal translation without taking into account the clinical utility of the information and its reality in front of illness; and as a result the translation becomes sterile and at best an object of university curiosity. Yet the TCM texts should be constantly studied for their clinical richness which can be of daily utility; and it is only through a teamwork among competent and honest practitioners with open minded sinologists who want their translations to be of value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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