Re:NAET debate

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 00-03-12 09:50:53 EST, you write:

 

<< In fact, unlike chasing some fictitious unmeasureable energy, >>

 

 

I havent been in on this debate and don't even know what NAET is, but I do

just want to say vis a vis chi Qi and " energy " in general:

 

I heard they got these things called radio waves. I ain't never seen one yet!

Supposedly they can carry " information " long distances without wires or

nothing! Have you ever heard of such hokum?

 

Sincerely,

Don St.Clair

The Skeptical Mystic -- " I'll believe it when I see it! "

[Guest guest]

At 08:35 PM 03/12/2000 -0500, you wrote:

PapaDon108

 

In a message dated 00-03-12 09:50:53 EST, you write:

 

<< In fact, unlike chasing some fictitious unmeasureable energy,

>>

 

I havent been in on this debate and don't even know what NAET is, but I

do

just want to say vis a vis chi Qi and " energy " in general:

 

I heard they got these things called radio waves. I ain't never seen one

yet!

Supposedly they can carry " information " long distances without

wires or

nothing! Have you ever heard of such hokum?

 

Sincerely,

Don St.Clair

The Skeptical Mystic -- " I'll believe it when I see

it! "

I have also follow the NAET " debate " and have been quite amused

-- radio waves you say --- Hmm what a bunch of non-sense .... As

for NAET the results of this treatment speak itself.

 

 

 

 

 

David Sontag

Doctor of Oriental Medicine (LK), Acupuncture Physician (FL), Licensed

Nutritionist (FL),

Certified Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique; Certified Jaffe /

Mellor Technique

Complex Homeopathy; Nutritional Blood Terrain Analysis Microscopy

Former Member of Technical Staff, Bell Laboratories;

Miami and Aventura, Florida

1-305-891-3449

[Guest guest]

I fail to see the point of your post and Don St. Clair's. . . .qi is a phenomenon documented in Chinese culture for millenia. . . .NAET is one person's invented technique maybe 5 years old. Kinesiology, maybe 50 years old. Are we arrogant enough to think we can invent new techniques out of the air? Or master something with a weekend workshop? Then, sure, let the chiropractors and M.D.'s have their 100 hour courses to 'master' acupuncture. It is this kind of thinking that is the problem with alternative medicine today. . . .the 'cheap and dirty' approach, let's mix everything together, if it 'works' it's ok. David. . . .

1) .what do you define as 'cure'?

2) how do you know NAET 'works'?

3) do you take pulse, tongue, pattern diagnosis with your patients?

4) do you practice Chinese medicine?

5) is symptom relief cure?

6) what are allergies in Chinese medicine? Are they caused by dust, metals, or dog hair? Or are they the result of an internal disharmony? How does NAET, and combination homeopathy deal with internal disharmonies in Chinese medicine?

 

If you are at such a high level that you have mastered all of these methods, and can explain them according to Chinese medicine, then my hat's off to you. Until then, what I can read from the few lines of your post is that you feel that any treatment, as long as it 'works', requires no explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

>David Sontag <healthy (AT) gate (DOT) net> At 08:35 PM 03/12/2000 -0500, you wrote:

>PapaDon108 (AT) aol (DOT) com In a message dated 00-03-12 09:50:53 EST, you write: << In fact, unlike chasing some fictitious unmeasureable energy, >> I havent been in on this debate and don't even know what NAET is, but I do just want to say vis a vis chi Qi and "energy" in general: I heard they got these things called radio waves. I ain't never seen one yet! Supposedly they can carry "information" long distances without wires or nothing! Have you ever heard of such hokum? Sincerely, Don St.Clair The Skeptical Mystic -- "I'll believe it when I see it!"

> I have also follow the NAET "debate" and have been quite amused -- radio waves you say --- Hmm what a bunch of non-sense .... & nbsp; As for NAET the results of this treatment speak itself. David Sontag Doctor of Oriental Medicine (LK), Acupuncture Physician (FL), Licensed Nutritionist & nbsp; (FL), Certified Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique; Certified Jaffe / Mellor Technique Complex Homeopathy; Nutritional Blood Terrain Analysis Microscopy Former Member of Technical Staff, Bell Laboratories; Miami and Aventura, Florida 1-305-891-3449 Conditions A to Z: Drug Database: Vitamins & Minerals: Alternative Practices: Herbal Index: Allergy Index: Ask Our Experts: In-Depth reports:

[Guest guest]

First of all Z'ev -- I am not go to get in a pissing match with you and

this will be my last post on the matter.....

 

 

At 07:40 PM 03/12/2000 -0800, you wrote:

I fail to see the point of your post and Don

St. Clair's. .

I am sorry to hear that....

 

.. .qi is a phenomenon documented in Chinese

culture for millenia. .

Yes --so?

 

.. .NAET is one person's invented technique

maybe 5 years old.

15 years

 

Kinesiology, maybe 50 years old.

 

Again So???

 

Are we arrogant enough to think we can

invent new techniques out of the air?

Are " we " arrogant enough to really think any new ideas come

" out of air " ? NAET did not come of the air anymore the Qi came

out of the air. In the study of " history of ideas " one quickly

learns no new idea come out of air -- but rather is

" build " on ideas that come before it....

 

 

Or master something with a weekend

workshop?

The two weekend workshops to " master " NAET teach one the

basics -- mastery in the technique is quite another matter.... Dr. Devi

makes that quite clear...

 

 

Then, sure, let the chiropractors and

M.D.'s have their 100 hour courses to 'master' acupuncture.

 

These courses teach the bare basics and the practitioners who think they

are " masters " after taking one are arrogant as well. So I guess

there is enough arrogance to go around. But I will say this -- I

know of no chiro or MD who has had brief training in acupuncture that

presents themselves to me as my equal knowing that I am the product of a

4 year clinic program in Oriental Medicine.

 

It is this kind of thinking that is the

problem with alternative medicine today

I do not practice alternative medicine --- the clinical tradition of

Oriental Medicine goes back over 3000 years. I practice Classical and

Modern Oriental Medicine and there is nothing alternative about it.

 

.. . . .the 'cheap and dirty' approach,

 

Ah -- we agree.. your approach here .. . lets just say ... is not well

thought out... nothing I am doing in my practice is " cheap or

dirty " and nothing about my training is cheap or dirty....

 

let's mix everything together, if it 'works'

it's ok. David. . . .

 

I cannot speak for others -- but speaking for the way I practice ... I do

know what you are talking about..

 

When I am practicing NAET that is what I tell the patient... The fact

that a healing system pulls some of its element from other systems -- is

in you thinking somehow " bad " . I submit to you that Oriental

Medicine is no different in this regard -- older for sure... but

not different.

 

Before I answer your questions I want you to know I find their tone to be

condescending...

 

 

1) .what do you define as 'cure'?

 

I do not -- the patient does....

 

2) how do you know NAET 'works'?

 

How do you know it does not? I knew about NAET for a number of years

before I studied it --- Like you I believed it was nonsense --- what I

have found out was that the it was the limits of my thinking that

were nonsense....

 

3) do you take pulse, tongue, pattern

diagnosis with your patients?

When I am practicing Oriental Medicine..... Not when I am practicing

NAET......

 

4) do you practice Chinese medicine?

 

Yes I practice Oriental Medicine -- so what is your point....?

 

5) is symptom relief cure?

As far as most patients are concerned -- yes -- However I know

better....

 

6) what are allergies in Chinese

medicine? Are they caused by dust, metals, or dog hair? Or

are they the result of an internal disharmony?

Hmm -- I don't know what to make of your tone here... but of course

--- internal disharmony...

 

How does NAET, and combination homeopathy deal

with internal disharmonies in Chinese medicine?

NAET and Complex Homeopathy also deal with internal disharmony but do not

use the Chinese medical model. They model the world differently -- NAET

uses some Oriental Medicine concepts in its model. Homeopathy uses it own

model draw from western traditions.

 

 

If you are at such a high level that you have

mastered all of these methods,

I never have claimed mastery -- I am good at what I do -- mastery will

take a few more years ;-) Are you inferring that you have mastery

in ?? My Chinese herb teacher Dr. Wu is a master of

. Master Wu has practices for more then forty years and

is truly a master and makes us all look like a kindergarten class. We --

his students are good -- he is beyond great --- to watch him in work is

MASTERY in action. But if you think you are a master of Chinese medicine

-- who am I to argue. I am -- at least in this life -- always the

student.

 

and can explain them according to

Chinese medicine,

Why would one want to?? -- I guess this is the mix everything together

you are talking about.Further, I guess that in you mind there is

room for only one model of healing in the world -- and any other models

need to be explained " according to "

 

then my hat's off to

you.

Keep it on....

 

Until then, what I can read from the

few lines of your post is that you feel that any treatment, as long as it

'works', requires no explanation.

Hmm -- I guess you think the explanations are most important...

explanations are but models of god's great universe and we -- to

paraphrase Einstein -- are trying to understand the inner working of a

pocket watch from outside the case watching the hands go round, hearing

it tick, etc.

 

As for my post it stands on it own -- for what it said -- that I

was amused --- I still am. But I will not take anymore of my time

to carry this conversation forward -- some of use are here to teach

and some of us are not....

 

 

 

 

 

Warm Regard

 

David Sontag

 

 

 

 

>

>David Sontag <healthy At 08:35 PM 03/12/2000 -0500,

you wrote:

>PapaDon108 In a message dated 00-03-12 09:50:53

EST, you write: << In fact, unlike chasing some fictitious

unmeasureable energy, >> I havent been in on this debate and

don't even know what NAET is, but I do just want to say vis a vis

chi Qi and " energy " in general: I heard they got these

things called radio waves. I ain't never seen one yet! Supposedly

they can carry " information " long distances without wires

or nothing! Have you ever heard of such hokum? Sincerely, Don

St.Clair The Skeptical Mystic -- " I'll believe it when I see

it! "

> I have also follow the NAET " debate " and have been quite

amused -- radio waves you say --- Hmm what a bunch of non-sense

..... & nbsp; As for NAET the results of this treatment speak

itself. David Sontag Doctor of Oriental

Medicine (LK), Acupuncture Physician (FL), Licensed

Nutritionist & nbsp; (FL), Certified Nambudripad's Allergy

Elimination Technique; Certified Jaffe / Mellor Technique Complex

Homeopathy; Nutritional Blood Terrain Analysis Microscopy Former Member

of Technical Staff, Bell Laboratories; Miami and Aventura, Florida

1-305-891-3449

Conditions

A to Z:

Drug

Database:

Vitamins

& Minerals:

Alternative

Practices:

Herbal

Index:

Allergy

Index:

Ask

Our Experts:

In-Depth

reports:

 

 

 

 

 

 

</blockquote></x-html>

[Guest guest]

yes, but the Root Cause ... Essence Deficiency

 

zooky <z00ky

> Just one more very brief reply...

This is certainly a NAETy subject, no?

As a student of TCM this debate has shown great good evidence of

uprising Yang.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

With all respect it seems a bit condescending and arrogant to dismiss a system just because you do not understand it every system had its begining period and refinement of the system through time. Should i also remind you that not so long ago in our western society herbalists were burned as witches, even today the AMA calls this medicine everything short of voodoo who is right and who is wrong is not up to you to decide but rather for a patient, who chooses the healing modality, or maybe if things fit into your scheme of the world, we should return to mideval times and burn all those that dont fit into our own paradigm.I submit that what ever we choose to do we must continue to be open to being a student for as long as we are on this planet working as healers...ill guarantee you that anyone who is truely a Master still considers him/her self a student.........

 

Regards

 

 

-

 

Sunday, March 12, 2000 09:40 PM

Re: Re:NAET debate

I fail to see the point of your post and Don St. Clair's. . . .qi is a phenomenon documented in Chinese culture for millenia. . . .NAET is one person's invented technique maybe 5 years old. Kinesiology, maybe 50 years old. Are we arrogant enough to think we can invent new techniques out of the air? Or master something with a weekend workshop? Then, sure, let the chiropractors and M.D.'s have their 100 hour courses to 'master' acupuncture. It is this kind of thinking that is the problem with alternative medicine today. . . .the 'cheap and dirty' approach, let's mix everything together, if it 'works' it's ok. David. . . . 1) .what do you define as 'cure'? 2) how do you know NAET 'works'?3) do you take pulse, tongue, pattern diagnosis with your patients?4) do you practice Chinese medicine?5) is symptom relief cure?6) what are allergies in Chinese medicine? Are they caused by dust, metals, or dog hair? Or are they the result of an internal disharmony? How does NAET, and combination homeopathy deal with internal disharmonies in Chinese medicine?If you are at such a high level that you have mastered all of these methods, and can explain them according to Chinese medicine, then my hat's off to you. Until then, what I can read from the few lines of your post is that you feel that any treatment, as long as it 'works', requires no explanation.>>David Sontag <healthy At 08:35 PM 03/12/2000 -0500, you wrote: >PapaDon108 In a message dated 00-03-12 09:50:53 EST, you write: << In fact, unlike chasing some fictitious unmeasureable energy, >> I havent been in on this debate and don't even know what NAET is, but I do just want to say vis a vis chi Qi and "energy" in general: I heard they got these things called radio waves. I ain't never seen one yet! Supposedly they can carry "information" long distances without wires or nothing! Have you ever heard of such hokum? Sincerely, Don St.Clair The Skeptical Mystic -- "I'll believe it when I see it!"> I have also follow the NAET "debate" and have been quite amused -- radio waves you say --- Hmm what a bunch of non-sense .... & nbsp; As for NAET the results of this treatment speak itself. David Sontag Doctor of Oriental Medicine (LK), Acupuncture Physician (FL), Licensed Nutritionist & nbsp; (FL), Certified Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique; Certified Jaffe / Mellor Technique Complex Homeopathy; Nutritional Blood Terrain Analysis Microscopy Former Member of Technical Staff, Bell Laboratories; Miami and Aventura, Florida 1-305-891-3449 Conditions A to Z: Drug Database: Vitamins & Minerals: Alternative Practices: Herbal Index: Allergy Index: Ask Our Experts: In-Depth reports:

[Guest guest]

David,

I think you missed the point here . . .I am disappointed that you

didn't answer my questions. The question here isn't mastery of Chinese

medicine.. . .Chinese medicine is so vast, mastery would take lifetimes.. .

...but the idea that short courses give mastery, so popular in so many

branches of our culture. My point here is that it is easy to give (in

Don's case) a simple 'radio waves' analogy, that looks all-inclusive and

appears to sew up the topic of qi, when, really, it is raising questions

about how carefully thought through the topic of qi actually is.

Many innovations have appeared in the history of Chinese medicine. . .

..if NAET wants a place in Chinese medicine (which seems to be challenging

the field right now, since so many practitioners are using it), should the

profession just accept it because people practice it or demand it? I think

anyone using other techniques should always ask the question, how does this

relate to what I have learned about Chinese medicine, and have I really

learned everything I need to know about our medicine? New innovations were

always debated, tested and scrutinized before being adapted.. . .and

furthermore, all innovators over a 1800 year period always found sources

for their innovations in the classical texts, such as the Nei Jing, Nan

Jing and Shang Han Lun. Are we well versed enough in the classical theory

to adapt these innovations to our field?

 

Perhaps you have given this deep thought. . . .why don't you share it

with us? Why not discuss the particulars of NAET or other techniques? To

just use something 'because it works' leaves out an entire dimension of

human life, the application of reason and logic to our choices.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alighta,

I will ask again. . . .what does NAET have to do with Chinese medicine? Why can't any pracititioners, here in California or anywhere else, explain what it is it does, in any language or logic? Why should our profession accept this technique, just because some practitioners say 'it works'? Why bring in these witch and radio wave analogies? We are talking about licensed professionals here adapting a technique. . . what does this have to do with ANYTHING that has been discussed so far? Why is it beyond you to carry on a logical, reasoned discussion about this topic?

 

 

 

 

 

>

>"Alighta Averbukh" <alighta (AT) prodigy (DOT) net> Z'ev, With all respect & nbsp; it seems a bit condescending and arrogant to dismiss a system & nbsp; just because you do not understand it every system had its begining & nbsp; period & nbsp; and refinement of the system through time. Should i also remind you that not so long ago in our western society & nbsp; herbalists & nbsp; were burned as witches, even today the AMA & nbsp; calls this medicine & nbsp; everything short of voodoo who is right & nbsp; and who is wrong & nbsp; is not up to you to decide & nbsp; but rather & nbsp; for a patient, who chooses the healing modality, & nbsp; or maybe & nbsp; if things fit into your scheme of the world, we should return to mideval times and burn all those that dont fit into our own paradigm.I submit that what ever & nbsp; we choose to do we must continue to be open & nbsp; to being a student for as long as we are on this planet working as healers...ill guarantee you that anyone who is truely a Master & nbsp; still considers him/her self a student......... Regards

[Guest guest]

Just one more very brief reply...

 

At 08:38 AM 03/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:

> " " <zrosenberg

>

>David,

> I think you missed the point here . . .I am disappointed that you

>didn't answer my questions. The question here isn't mastery of Chinese

>medicine.. . .Chinese medicine is so vast, mastery would take lifetimes.. .

>..but the idea that short courses give mastery,

 

I have already stated the courses in and of themselves do not give

mastery... that is you statement --

 

>so popular in so many

>branches of our culture. My point here is that it is easy to give (in

>Don's case) a simple 'radio waves' analogy, that looks all-inclusive and

>appears to sew up the topic of qi, when, really, it is raising questions

>about how carefully thought through the topic of qi actually is.

 

Pointless -- really

 

> Many innovations have appeared in the history of Chinese medicine. . .

>.if NAET wants a place in Chinese medicine

 

It does not want a place in Oriental Medicine -- it is its own system!

 

 

>(which seems to be challenging

>the field right now, since so many practitioners are using it), should the

>profession just accept it because people practice it or demand it?

 

No one is forced to practice NAET and my patients never " asked " me to learn it.

 

>I think

>anyone using other techniques should always ask the question, how does this

>relate to what I have learned about Chinese medicine, and

 

Why?? it is another technique -- it is only in your mind that they need to

relate....

 

 

> have I really learned everything I need to know about our medicine?

 

You just stated that this is not possible and it is not........

 

> New innovations were

>always debated, tested and scrutinized before being adapted.. . .and

>furthermore, all innovators over a 1800 year period always found sources

>for their innovations in the classical texts, such as the Nei Jing, Nan

>Jing and Shang Han Lun. Are we well versed enough in the classical theory

>to adapt these innovations to our field?

 

 

Lets revisit NAET in 1800 years --hindsight is 100%

 

 

> Perhaps you have given this deep thought. . . .why don't you share it

> with us?

 

Why?? first this is an herb group; second I do not wish to take the

time.... and I will not.

 

>Why not discuss the particulars of NAET or other techniques?

 

Read the books -- take the courses -- try the technique in a clinical

setting.... a foundational theoretical framework exists for NAET and is

continuing to develop. I have no time or interest in expanding it here.....

 

>To just use something 'because it works' leaves out an entire dimension of

>human life, the application of reason and logic to our choices.

 

Who ever said I use it " because it works " -- not that anything would be

wrong with that in and of itself --- and as I said above a framework exists

and the its' " expanded dimensions " and its reason and logic exist. But I

will not do the legwork for you.

 

So if NAET is a threat to your reality -- and only God knows why -- you can

spend you time and energy trying to cut it down --- but I must say this

would not be any different then those who are threaten by Oriental Medicine

and out of their own ignorance try and cut it down as well. I will spend my

time doing what I do best --helping people heal; and might I be so bold as

to suggest the you turn you energies in a positive direction as well. NAET

is not going to go away because you do not like it -- and it is not going

to stay around cause I do -- the proof is in the pudding -- so to speak --

and that will not happen in our lifetime

 

Anyway - I do not have time for this -- it keeps me from my work -- it is

not constructive or positive and I am done with this conversation.

 

You may use your time and energy as you see fit...

 

 

>

 

David Sontag

 

 

 

>------

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>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

> Just one more very brief reply...

 

This is certainly a NAETy subject, no?

 

As a student of TCM this debate has shown great good evidence of

uprising Yang.

 

 

 

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://im.

[Guest guest]

Dear David:

 

I was hopping to see a continuation of this debate with good aptitude

y professional responses. I also want to spend my time reading

something productive.

 

Adolfo

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

NAET has nothing to do with chinese medicine that was not the issue the fact is that it works the problem comes when people try to mix modalities they dilute the essence of them so , i choose a modality and that is what i practice ,i have no problem in having an intelligent discussion about any topic as far as NAET im looking into it to see why it works because patients come to me reporting over and over that they are better when nothing else has worked, my problem is not with your opinion but with the passing of judgements on any modality before investigating it in depth , that historically has been the problem.So i mean no disrespect we are all adults and can agree to disagree , when i learn a little more about NAET beyond the fact that it seems to work i would be glad to continue an intelligent discussion with you on the topic.Have you talked to Devi Nambudrapad on the subject since she would be one that is most qualified to define what NAET is and how it works? Regards Alighta

-

 

 

Monday, March 13, 2000 10:44 AM

Re: Re:NAET debate

Alighta,I will ask again. . . .what does NAET have to do with Chinese medicine? Why can't any pracititioners, here in California or anywhere else, explain what it is it does, in any language or logic? Why should our profession accept this technique, just because some practitioners say 'it works'? Why bring in these witch and radio wave analogies? We are talking about licensed professionals here adapting a technique. . . what does this have to do with ANYTHING that has been discussed so far? Why is it beyond you to carry on a logical, reasoned discussion about this topic?> >"Alighta Averbukh" <alighta Z'ev, With all respect & nbsp; it seems a bit condescending and arrogant to dismiss a system & nbsp; just because you do not understand it every system had its begining & nbsp; period & nbsp; and refinement of the system through time. Should i also remind you that not so long ago in our western society & nbsp; herbalists & nbsp; were burned as witches, even today the AMA & nbsp; calls this medicine & nbsp; everything short of voodoo who is right & nbsp; and who is wrong & nbsp; is not up to you to decide & nbsp; but rather & nbsp; for a patient, who chooses the healing modality, & nbsp; or maybe & nbsp; if things fit into your scheme of the world, we should return to mideval times and burn all those that dont fit into our own paradigm.I submit that what ever & nbsp; we choose to do we must continue to be open & nbsp; to being a student for as long as we are on this planet working as healers...ill guarantee you that anyone who is truely a Master & nbsp; still considers him/her self a student......... Regards

[Guest guest]

Dear Alighta,

I agree with you that mixing modalities can be a problem. . . .and, of course, this is why I asked in the first place, what does NAET have to do with Chinese medicine? We are trained in a system of medicine that is very complex and detailed, with several modalities, and takes much time to gain competancy in. NAET, is a technique, not a full-blown medicine, and for practitioners who are trained and LICENSED to practice Chinese medicine, I think it is only fair that the profession should evaluate the technique to see what, if any relationship it has to Chinese medicine. As Will Morris noted in a recent post, kinesiological methods may have some value to CONFIRM an already established Chinese medical diagnosis, but if it is used to replace it, the validity of the Chinese medicine being practiced has to be questioned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

>"Alighta Averbukh" <alighta (AT) prodigy (DOT) net> Z'ev, NAET has nothing to do with chinese medicine & nbsp; that was not the issue the fact is that it works the problem comes when people try to mix modalities they dilute the essence of them so , i choose a modality & nbsp; and that is what i practice & nbsp; ,i have no problem & nbsp; in having & nbsp; an intelligent discussion about any topic & nbsp; as far as NAET & nbsp; im looking into it to see why it works because patients come to me reporting over and over that they are better when nothing else has worked, my problem is not with your opinion but with the passing of judgements on any modality before investigating it in depth , that historically has been & nbsp; & nbsp;the problem.So i mean no disrespect we are & nbsp; all adults and can agree to disagree , when i learn a little more about NAET beyond the fact that it seems to work i would be glad to continue & nbsp; an intelligent discussion with you on the topic.Have you talked to & nbsp; Devi Nambudrapad on the subject since she would be one that is most qualified to define what & nbsp; NAET is and how it works? & nbsp; & nbsp; Regards Alighta -