doctorate

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your words of wisdom, Z'ev. I wish I were more excited

about taking on the task of learning chinese. I do recognize the value

it would have. I am excited about studying the classics in translation

in-depth. I intend to take the middle path here and educate myself in

the classics better as well as learn more in specific bio-medical

specialties. I feel that it is through this approach that I personally

can offer more to my patients and students. I think that for some

people, following a predominately traditional/classical path may allow

them to offer more based on who they are.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

What do people think about the proposed doctoral program? I believe

more education is always better and that herbs are given short shrift at

just about every TCM school, mainly due to time and finance constraints.

So it seems the dotoral program will require a high standard of

herbology. There had been some talk of having no herb training required

as a prerequisite or even having separate doctoral programs for

acupuncture alone. But now, you will need master's level herbology

training to get into a doctoral program. However, I have several areas

of concern:

 

1. The CCAOM has decided to forgo any chinese language requirements for

this program. This is unfortunate as the credibility of our profession

will be seriously questioned when even our " doctors " are not familiar

with either the classics or latest research in the journals. Already,

the NIH OAM has run into several problems with TCM research that could

have been avoided if the researchers had access to Chinese sources.

This is an unforgivable blunder.

 

2. Who will enter these doctoral programs? I know it will not be

established practitioners or those who are otherwise busy and successful

in the field. No, it will be two groups: those who are already in

school and economic incentive to get the advanced title before entering

a competitive profession and faculty members of the various schools who

will need the ttile for their professional viability. The latter group

will probaby receive free or reduced tuition and other incentives.

 

Yet the question remains as to whether this will actually elevate the

practice of TCM. The doctors will be those who are just graduated from

school or those who have spent a lot of time in academia; it will not be

th emost experienced clinicians. This new group of highly schooled, but

inexperienced " dcotors " may pose a real econmic threat to those of us

who remain at the L.Ac. level. This would not bother me as much if I

thought these new docs would be better than the rest of us, but I think

the reverse will actually be true. Yet the doctors will have a vested

interest in getting their money's worth from their extra educational

expense, which will motivate them to lobby insurance and legislators for

their own ends. Insurance companies covering acupuncture will be

inclined to set doctoral standards for their applicants.

 

Since these doctors will not have to take any entrance exams or meet an

language requirements, they may serve to displace more experienced

clinicians who can actually read Chinese. This will actually dilute

rather than enrich the profession. To underscore this, consider the

CCAOM report on the doctorate you may have received in the mail. In

this article, it is mentioned that doctoral students will be abe to

specialize in various areas, such as the classics or dermatology and so

on. Now, some degree of specilaization is a good thing, no doubt. What

struck me was that the study of the classics was considered as something

akin to choosing dermatology or gynecology. Yet the classics are the

foundaion of any of the specialties; they are not a specialty

themselves, per se. Advanced study of classics is a specialty, but our

education doesn't even skim the surface, so their study becomes a

requirement for any true american doctorate.

 

So language is not required and classics are elective. So what is a

doctoral program about? Sitting through 2 more years of mind numbing

rote recitation of textbook dermatology and gynecology patterns, etc.

One can't help but think that other interests are at hand besides the

actuall advancement of the profession. BTW, this separation of the

classics from the required doctoral curriculum is no accident or

misreading on my part. It is a recurring theme in this doctoral

proposal for the past five years.

 

If you have opinions pro or con, please use the public comment period to

inform the CCAOM and your relevant state bodies.

 

[Guest guest]

As a cynic of TCM education (I attended Five Branches, Santa Cruz, CA. , San

Francisco College of Acupuncture, San Francisco, CA., and the Academy of

Oriental Health Services and Sciences, Oakland, CA.) Any change would be

better. I say that because the opportunity is NOW present to institute

CHANGE. Personally i hope it is to learn real practical working knowledge

that one experiences in a California office. It seems that ALL Collages,

regardless of the field, focus on study for an exam - not practical

experience.

 

What did they say when I was in college (1970'3)

Those that can do

Those that can't teach

Those that can't do either administer

 

Fortunately - for our profession - we have an abundance of energy and desire

to do the right thing and the talent - and NOW the opportunity to put it all

together.

 

Hopeful

Ed Kasper LAc.,

[Guest guest]

As far as language is concerned, I would hope that practicioners can

learn Chinese, or Japanese if they are primarily into needles, or Tibetan

if they practice primarily Daoist OM. But other things being equal I

would find it more useful for doctoral students to study medical

specialties. There may be more to be learned by combining a study of

Fu-zheng and western oncology (preferably including some knowlege of

western herbal escharotics and herbal anti-cancer regimens) than in

reading the classics in their original language. I'd rather be treated

by the medical specialist, although I want someone to be studying the

complexities of texts who can point out the multiciplicities of meaning

and illuminate classical diagnosis.

 

We are treating primarily modern westerners, with demineralized diets,

stresses that include some uniquely modern phenomena (EMR, modern

pesticides, vaccinations, etc.), and using combinations of oriental and

western medicine. OM is a universal medicine and should integrate

current biomedical knowlege while retaining its pattern diagnosis and

internal medicine theory. But it is inevitable that the medicine will

evolve as it is brought out into a western culture, (by which I DON'T

mean that it should be co-oped by lists of biomedical diagnosis labels

with associated stock prescriptions). I'm not sure every doctoral

student should spend the limited time in school studying the classics in

their original language.

 

I see this as analogous to religious experience. Some primarily drink

from a revealed word and study it in depth. Others primarily use

meditative and other direct experiences of the divine. And still others

are on the front line of working with people in the world putting

religious precepts into practice. All three areas are important and one

should have an acquaintance with all, but no one will be able to master

all three approaches in one lifetime. Do we really think that the

Confucial gentlemen scholar doctors were better clinically than the

direct family transmission doctors?

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

Courage is the most important of all virtues, because without it we can't

practice any other virtue with consistency. -- Maya Angelou

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Mark,

It is nice that the classics are required. . . .however, they will be

difficult to comprehend without a working basic knowledge of Chinese. This

doesn't mean mastery of the language. . .it starts with immersion in the

technical terminology listed in the Wiseman dictionary, and learning some

basic characters. Even this knowledge will go a long way in helping

comprehension of the classical material. The difficulty students are

having with pattern diagnosis largely has to do with a less than ideal

grasp of the technical language of Chinese medicine, and not enough

exposure to more in-depth theoretical knowledge, i.e., Shang Han Lun, Pi

Wei Lun, etc. Many modern textbooks rely on a listing of biomedical

disease names, with some superficial pattern information tacked on to the

prescriptions.

The nature of many patients' illnesses, such as lupus, MS, or 'chronic

fatigue', are very complex, and require a deep knowledge of pattern

diagnosis and internal medicine theory. Some basic knowledge of Chinese

will not complicate matters, au contraire, it will help put that TCM

knowledge into place and make it MORE comprehensible.

 

 

 

 

 

>You're sounding a bit cynical there, Todd. Unfortunately, cynicism can

>sometimes be annoyingly close to reality.

>It is my understanding that at OCOM at least, the classics will be a

>required, core part of the doc program. It will also be heavily weighted

>toward clinical rather than classroom study with a significant portion

>of the clinical stuff being done in China.

>I personally do not want to have to learn chinese as my mind is already

>overflowing with the many details of TCM and I'm not sure there's room

>for that highly complex language as well at this point. I agree that it

>would be a valuable tool in honing my understanding of the medicine but

>I think I could still do fairly well without it.

>Your hypothetical demographics for participants in the doc program is

>probably close to what will happen. Well established practitioners with

>steady practices shouldn't be affected too much economically in their

>private practices as referrals should keep rolling in based on their

>past successes and skills in general. I think that academic positions

>and positions within mainstream medical facilities and institutions will

>probably become dominated by those with doctorates.

>I would like to add that the herbal program at OCOM has come a long way

>since you were there. Student interest has quadrupled at least and by

>the time they become interns a majority are able to write a decent

>formula. The area still lacking (although somewhat improved over the

>last few years) is in making a proper, detailed diagnosis upon which to

>base the formula. This can only come with more clinical experience and

>study of the classics, both of which will be emphasized in the OCOM doc

>program.

>

>Mark Goldby

>Herbal Dispensary Supervisor, OCOM

>

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[Guest guest]

You're sounding a bit cynical there, Todd. Unfortunately, cynicism can

sometimes be annoyingly close to reality.

It is my understanding that at OCOM at least, the classics will be a

required, core part of the doc program. It will also be heavily weighted

toward clinical rather than classroom study with a significant portion

of the clinical stuff being done in China.

I personally do not want to have to learn chinese as my mind is already

overflowing with the many details of TCM and I'm not sure there's room

for that highly complex language as well at this point. I agree that it

would be a valuable tool in honing my understanding of the medicine but

I think I could still do fairly well without it.

Your hypothetical demographics for participants in the doc program is

probably close to what will happen. Well established practitioners with

steady practices shouldn't be affected too much economically in their

private practices as referrals should keep rolling in based on their

past successes and skills in general. I think that academic positions

and positions within mainstream medical facilities and institutions will

probably become dominated by those with doctorates.

I would like to add that the herbal program at OCOM has come a long way

since you were there. Student interest has quadrupled at least and by

the time they become interns a majority are able to write a decent

formula. The area still lacking (although somewhat improved over the

last few years) is in making a proper, detailed diagnosis upon which to

base the formula. This can only come with more clinical experience and

study of the classics, both of which will be emphasized in the OCOM doc

program.

 

Mark Goldby

Herbal Dispensary Supervisor, OCOM

[Guest guest]

Z you said it well

Ed Kasper, L.Ac.,

 

 

I think that many of us (OM practitioners) miss the point here. Of

course, choosing specialties can be a positive thing for our patients. . .

..and having access to biomedical INFORMATION can be helpful. But we are

NOT biomedical physicians, we practice Chinese medicine. I would rather be

a first-rate zhong yi/Chinese medicine physician than a second-rate western

doctor. OM IS a universal medicine. . . .

[Guest guest]

Karen,

I think that many of us (OM practitioners) miss the point here. Of

course, choosing specialties can be a positive thing for our patients. . .

..and having access to biomedical INFORMATION can be helpful. But we are

NOT biomedical physicians, we practice Chinese medicine. I would rather be

a first-rate zhong yi/Chinese medicine physician than a second-rate western

doctor. OM IS a universal medicine. . . .but it is based on a universal

philosophy. Every practitioner in China, in 'olden' times and modern, says

it is important to learn the classics, even in translation. Without the

principles and theory of the medicine, often missing in the textbooks, we

are going to stumble over our own feet in attempting to figure out complex

pattern diagnosis. Yes, we may get nostrums to ease the pain, but the

dynamic interaction between classical study and clinical practice is the

cornerstone of our medicine. For example, one cannot clearly understand

the prescriptions of the Shang Han Lun without studying the THEORY of the

Shang Han Lun. Fortunately, we have a great translation available (from

Paradigm Press), and one can learn Chinese while studying the text!

 

I think that it is not so difficult to grow and study. . . .as you say,

only a handful will be 'experts' in classics. . .I am not an expert, either

in classics or Chinese, but the classical texts inform my daily, full-time

practice of difficult cases (Chinese internal medicine). Also, as a

professor at Pacific College, San Diego, I feel it is my responsibility to

use accurate terminology in my classes, and give sources for the

information that are reliable.

 

 

 

 

>As far as language is concerned, I would hope that practicioners can

>learn Chinese, or Japanese if they are primarily into needles, or Tibetan

>if they practice primarily Daoist OM. But other things being equal I

>would find it more useful for doctoral students to study medical

>specialties. There may be more to be learned by combining a study of

>Fu-zheng and western oncology (preferably including some knowlege of

>western herbal escharotics and herbal anti-cancer regimens) than in

>reading the classics in their original language. I'd rather be treated

>by the medical specialist, although I want someone to be studying the

>complexities of texts who can point out the multiciplicities of meaning

>and illuminate classical diagnosis.

>

>We are treating primarily modern westerners, with demineralized diets,

>stresses that include some uniquely modern phenomena (EMR, modern

>pesticides, vaccinations, etc.), and using combinations of oriental and

>western medicine. OM is a universal medicine and should integrate

>current biomedical knowlege while retaining its pattern diagnosis and

>internal medicine theory. But it is inevitable that the medicine will

>evolve as it is brought out into a western culture, (by which I DON'T

>mean that it should be co-oped by lists of biomedical diagnosis labels

>with associated stock prescriptions). I'm not sure every doctoral

>student should spend the limited time in school studying the classics in

>their original language.

>

>I see this as analogous to religious experience. Some primarily drink

>from a revealed word and study it in depth. Others primarily use

>meditative and other direct experiences of the divine. And still others

>are on the front line of working with people in the world putting

>religious precepts into practice. All three areas are important and one

>should have an acquaintance with all, but no one will be able to master

>all three approaches in one lifetime. Do we really think that the

>Confucial gentlemen scholar doctors were better clinically than the

>direct family transmission doctors?

>

>Karen Vaughan

>CreationsGarden

[Guest guest]

Re Karen's comment:

 

>There may be more to be learned by combining a study of

> Fu-zheng and western oncology (preferably including some knowlege of

> western herbal escharotics and herbal anti-cancer regimens)

 

A reminder that Dr. Ingrid Naiman, author of Cancer Salves, A Botanical

Approach to Treatment, will be giving a seminar next weekend (April 8-9) on

the use of escharotic salves and psychospiritual approaches to cancer, in

Tucson, AZ. 13 ceus approved by NCCAOM.

 

Also, will be coming to Tucson May 7th to teach a one-day

workshop on and Management of Cancer Patients. 7 ceus

approved.

 

 

contact: Talking Turtle Productions (520) 861-4575. or

www.talkingturtle.com.

 

Catherine Hemenway, Dipl. Ac.

TALKING TURTLE PRODUCTIONS

" Continuing education programs in

Complementary Medicine "

www.talkingturtle.com