Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Hi James, You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept me from pursuing it. Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your experience's in using them. Thanks, Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. ---------------------------Original Message------------ In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, OMJournal writes: << Subj: spagyric 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time OMJournal Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > @</A> Dear Gilbert: Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or Chinese formulas for sale or trade? I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. Doses are only a few drops. I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work better this way. James Ramholz Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > Hi , > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my responsibilities. > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, a fully equipped lab. > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient compliance. > > My academic background include a degree and professional registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general science, theology and chemical technology. > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > Advance Textbook on Traditional and Pharmacology, Vol. I History - Basic Theory - Diagnostics, Vol. II Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal Medicine Vol. IV Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these texts. > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 ------ You can win $1000! Time-limited offer. Enter today at: http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 X-eGroups-OMJournal OMJournal spagyric Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Dear Gilbert: Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or Chinese formulas for sale or trade? I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. Doses are only a few drops. I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work better this way. James Ramholz Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > Hi , > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my responsibilities. > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, a fully equipped lab. > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient compliance. > > My academic background include a degree and professional registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general science, theology and chemical technology. > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > Advance Textbook on Traditional and Pharmacology, Vol. I History - Basic Theory - Diagnostics, Vol. II Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal Medicine Vol. IV Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these texts. > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hi James, Thanks for the reply, and no, I did not catch the concept of using powdered herbs in your " fibonacci series " formulas. Personally, I prefer powdered extracts for convenience, simplicity, pt. compliance and also from a " cleanliness " , and safety stand point. My math is rusty, but I do remember something about the series being similar to the the golden mean ratios, or prime # series, so is your series then broken down along the line of King= x, Minister=.75x Adjuvant=.5 x, etc, or??? Also I understand that the spagyric's are expensive and difficult to prepare, but from my (quite limited) understanding, they should be capable of being used in a almost homeopathic dosing (i.e. 2-3 drops sublingual tis/qid) for difficult cases, etc. Sounds as though that is how you were describing utilizing them as well. I mean when you get right down to it, TCM is based on alchemy, so alchemical tinctures (even from a western discipline) should be something that could be quite useful for difficult cases, especially when combined with some of the more subtle diagnostic regimines. Any way, enough of my ramble for now. talk w/ you later , Bruce ------------------------------Original Messages------- ------------------------ In a message dated 04/19/2000 9:37:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, OMJournal writes: << Subj: Re: spagyric 04/19/2000 9:37:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time OMJournal (James Ramholz) Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > @</A> Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing around with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula in my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably unintentionally). A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more research can be done. I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by being absorbed under the tongue. > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ------ ---- > ---------------------------Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >chineseherbacad emy > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal > > > > > > > , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> > > -- ---- > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > http://click./1/3011/6/_/542111/_/956127544/ > -- ---- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > , GRCanning@a... wrote: > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ---------- > --------------------------- Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >chineseherbacad emy > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal > > > > > > > , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> ------ Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. http://click./1/3102/6/_/542111/_/956205428/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sentto-201013-771-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (rly-yc03.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.35]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:37:52 2000 Received: from mv. (mv. [208.50.144.81]) by rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 00:37:22 -0400 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-771-GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mv. with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2000 05:37:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 28897 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO qg.) (10.1.2.27) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 4202 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 Received: from n1.onelist.org (HELO hh.) (10.1.10.40) by iqg. with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal Received: from [10.1.10.29] by hh. with NNFMP; 20 Apr 2000 04:37:07 -0000 Message-ID: <8dm1hd+2qa0 (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> In-<d2.276cf37.262eb330 User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list ; contact -owner Delivered-mailing list Precedence: bulk List-Un: <-> Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:37:01 -0000 X-eGroups- " James Ramholz " <OMJournal " James Ramholz " <OMJournal Re: spagyric Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing around with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula in my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably unintentionally). A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more research can be done. I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by being absorbed under the tongue. > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ------ ---- > ---------------------------Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> > > -- ---- > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > http://click./1/3011/6/_/542111/_/956127544/ > -- ---- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > , GRCanning@a... wrote: > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ---------- > --------------------------- Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> ------ Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. http://click./1/3102/6/_/542111/_/956205428/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing around with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula in my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably unintentionally). A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more research can be done. I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by being absorbed under the tongue. > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ------ ---- > ---------------------------Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> > > -- ---- > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > http://click./1/3011/6/_/542111/_/956127544/ > -- ---- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > , GRCanning@a... wrote: > > Hi James, > > You really have my attention now (as a member of the list) with the spagryic > tinctures and your " fibonacci series " tinctures. > > I always wanted to explore Spagyric tinctures of TCM formulas, but the > incredible difficulty (at least according to the published methods) has kept > me from pursuing it. > > Do you have any more information (at least information you would be willing > to share [oh lord, not the dreaded " Chinese Secret Formula " business again I > hope (g)]), on the available alchemical tinctures, and where to get them, and > on your innovative " fibonacci tincts " ? > > Thanks in advance for any info you can share on them, and on your > experience's in using them. > > Thanks, > > Bruce Canning, OMD, L.Ac. > > > > -- ---------- > --------------------------- Original > Message------------ > In a message dated 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > OMJournal writes: > > << Subj: spagyric > 04/18/2000 10:34:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time > OMJournal > Reply-to: <A HREF= " " > > @</A> > > > Dear Gilbert: > > Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or > Chinese formulas for sale or trade? > > I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to > try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared > solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. > Doses are only a few drops. > > I've been making my own formulas according to the Fibonacci sequence, > using Spring Wind concentrates. Even classical formulas seem to work > better this way. > > > James Ramholz > Oriental Medicine Journal , " Gilbert Arnold " > <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > > Hi , > > > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for > the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my > responsibilities. > > > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric > pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to > Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, > a fully equipped lab. > > > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu > and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt > about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for > aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested > in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology > to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these > physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient > compliance. > > > > My academic background include a degree and professional > registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general > science, theology and chemical technology. > > > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following > their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a > hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting > to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > > > Advance Textbook on Traditional > and Pharmacology, Vol. I > History - Basic Theory - > Diagnostics, Vol. II > Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal > Medicine Vol. IV > Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- > guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these > texts. > > > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and > chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 > > > - ----- > You can win $1000! > Time-limited offer. Enter today at: > http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ > - ----- > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- > Return-Path: <sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > > Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) > by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v70.20) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:59 -0400 > Received: from mr. (mr. [208.50.144.80]) by > rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 01:34:48 - 0400 > X-eGroups-Return: sentto-201013-766- GRCanning=aol.com (AT) returns (DOT) > Received: from [10.1.10.37] by mr. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:42 -0000 > Received: (qmail 24949 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from unknown (HELO qh.) (10.1.2.28) by mta2 with SMTP; > 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: (qmail 20854 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > Received: from n8.onelist.org (HELO fk.) (10.1.10.47) by > iqh. with SMTP; 19 Apr 2000 05:34:41 -0000 > X-eGroups-Return: OMJournal > Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fk. with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2000 > 05:34:41 -0000 > > Message-ID: <8djgh9+9kmb (AT) eGroups (DOT) com> > User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 > X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Mailing-List: list ; contact > -owner > Delivered-mailing list > Precedence: bulk > List-Un: <- > > Wed, 19 Apr 2000 05:34:33 -0000 > X-eGroups-OMJournal > OMJournal > > spagyric > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hello James, Sorry for the delay in my reply; I have been out of the country. You asked; " Do you have any spagyric formulas made with individual herbs or Chinese formulas for sale or trade? " At this point not. I have found a few herbs that respond well to spagyric work such as tienchi, as long as it is low temp work. This herbs are currently being tested. You wrote; " I have several types of samples of Chinese formulas, if you'd like to try some, made by an alchemist using his own specially prepared solvents, using low temperature and vacuum methods of extraction. Doses are only a few drops. " Diplomatically speaking, this does not sound like alchemy or spagyrics to me. Putting a soxhlet under vacuum is not alchemy. I will e-mail some material to you. The other thing to realize is that western alchemy may well have part of it's origin in China. I have seen pao zhi done on various plants . Calcination methods vary from a light roasting to a full ashing. Gilbert , " Gilbert Arnold " <ArnoldG@E...> wrote: > Hi , > > My name is Gilbert Arnold; I am a trade and marketing officer for the Canadian Government. Herbs and their products are among my responsibilities. > > I am also a former benedictine monk trained to make spagyric pharmaceutical and herbal preparations any thing from antibiotics to Hawthorne tinctures. We also made beer and wine. I have as a hobby, a fully equipped lab. > > I also have about 3000 hours of training in acupuncture, shiatsu and tuina. I can do pulse diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never learnt about the medicinal use of herbs to any serious extent. > > In my travels to martial arts seminars I met and treated (for aches, pains and injuries) practitioners of tcm who got me interested in tcm herbs. I applied western and ayurvedic preparation technology to some of the less palatable decoctions and, according to these physicians, the things worked better, probably by increasing patient compliance. > > My academic background include a degree and professional registration in engineering, degrees in agriculture and general science, theology and chemical technology. > > Having noted a shift in Chinese agricultural production following their reception of a world bank loan, I have begun to work (as a hobby) on growing Chinese herbs in North America. > > In order to alleviate my ignorance about herbs, but without wanting to hang out a shingle, I was thinking of purchasing the following; > > Advance Textbook on Traditional and Pharmacology, Vol. I History - Basic Theory - Diagnostics, Vol. II Pharmacy - Prescription , Vol. III Internal Medicine Vol. IV Acupuncture and Moxibustion shown at http://www.china- guide.com/tcm/advanced.html. I'd would appreciate opinions on these texts. > > I am looking for a good book on Chinese herbal processing and chemical make up of Chinese herbs. > > Gilbert Arnold P.Eng. > http://www.agr.ca/cgi-bin/misb/whoswho/empdet/l=0/s=99/e=1916 ------ You can win $1000! Time-limited offer. Enter today at: http://click./1/2864/6/_/542111/_/956122482/ ------ Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi James, I have always been sort of open, and I will send you some information on basic spagyrics. You wrote. " A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the bases. " Spagyric wine spirite are not made by multiple distillations; they a re made as follows. A batch of stong white wine is made; the wine is placed in a 10 liter flask with a 1 foot diameter ground glas neck and circulated, at 50c with a 20 liter bulb for three days. You can tell that you have done a good job if the circulation forms nice lines down the sides of the bulb. The spirits are the sublimated at 50c into a helm, catching the humidum containing the salts of wine. When the sublimate alcohol content is low, one stops sublimating. A careful distillation is done, until a milky liquid separates. This liquis is worked later to produce a coumpound that sharpens the spirits. That's spagyrics. You wrote; " After distillation, the formulas then are separated and centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, labor-intensive, and expensive. " A properly conducted spagyric extraction does not necessitate a centrifubge to separate oils and such ; the process should do that. So what you are describing is not spagyric. You wrote; " The retail price was about $1000 an ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more research can be done. " Like I said, not spagyric. Good thing it priced itself out of the market; karma, I guess. Gilbert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi Gilbert, Please send it to the whole list. Thanks. Catherine Catherine Hemenway, Dipl. Ac. TALKING TURTLE PRODUCTIONS " Continuing education programs in Complementary Medicine " www.talkingturtle.com - Gilbert Arnold <arnoldg ; <OMJournal Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:14 AM Re: spagyric > Hi James, > > I have always been sort of open, and I will send you some information on basic spagyrics. > > > You wrote. > > > " A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some > spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low > temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he > does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the > bases. " > > Spagyric wine spirite are not made by multiple distillations; they a re made as follows. A batch of stong white wine is made; the wine is placed in a 10 liter flask with a 1 foot diameter ground glas neck and circulated, at 50c with a 20 liter bulb for three days. You can tell that you have done a good job if the circulation forms nice lines down the sides of the bulb. The spirits are the sublimated at 50c into a helm, catching the humidum containing the salts of wine. > > When the sublimate alcohol content is low, one stops sublimating. A careful distillation is done, until a milky liquid separates. This liquis is worked later to produce a coumpound that sharpens the spirits. That's spagyrics. > > You wrote; > > > " After distillation, the formulas then are separated and > centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas > aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, > labor-intensive, and expensive. " > > A properly conducted spagyric extraction does not necessitate a centrifubge to separate oils and such ; the process should do that. So what you are describing is not spagyric. > > > You wrote; > > " The retail price was about $1000 an > ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford > them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more > research can be done. " > > Like I said, not spagyric. Good thing it priced itself out of the market; karma, I guess. > > Gilbert > > > ------ > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: > http://click./1/2885/6/_/542111/_/956243713/ > ------ > > Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 Dear Gilbert: You are right, of course, I wasn't describing the same methods as you. I was only allowed to watch and am not very familiar with spagyrics. I was trying to describe the the Paracelsus method of separation of the elements; extracting the " sulfur " of a Chiense herbal formula. There's a diagram in the Philosophers of Nature Spagyrics Lesson 19, Figure 1, that closely outlines the whole process. The commerical tinctures and extracts are pretty poor. It would be exciting to see how Chinese formulas could be cranked up in strength. I've only decanted some formulas myself, not having invested in all sorts of lab equipment. They go through an interesting qualitative difference at three months, six months, and one year. I have a Hua To formuala, an interenal trauma formula, that's over 12 years old that's too good to take now. I look forward to hearing more from you and would be anxious to try some of your materials when you make them. Jim Ramholz , " Gilbert Arnold " <arnoldg@e...> wrote: > Hi James, > > I have always been sort of open, and I will send you some information on basic spagyrics. > > > You wrote. > > > " A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some > spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low > temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he > does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the > bases. " > > Spagyric wine spirite are not made by multiple distillations; they a re made as follows. A batch of stong white wine is made; the wine is placed in a 10 liter flask with a 1 foot diameter ground glas neck and circulated, at 50c with a 20 liter bulb for three days. You can tell that you have done a good job if the circulation forms nice lines down the sides of the bulb. The spirits are the sublimated at 50c into a helm, catching the humidum containing the salts of wine. > > When the sublimate alcohol content is low, one stops sublimating. A careful distillation is done, until a milky liquid separates. This liquis is worked later to produce a coumpound that sharpens the spirits. That's spagyrics. > > You wrote; > > > " After distillation, the formulas then are separated and > centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas > aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, > labor-intensive, and expensive. " > > A properly conducted spagyric extraction does not necessitate a centrifubge to separate oils and such ; the process should do that. So what you are describing is not spagyric. > > > You wrote; > > " The retail price was about $1000 an > ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford > them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more > research can be done. " > > Like I said, not spagyric. Good thing it priced itself out of the market; karma, I guess. > > Gilbert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2000 Report Share Posted April 22, 2000 A point I'd like to make. . . . A few years ago, I was speaking at the Pacific Symposium in a hotel where the thermostat was set to 55* in November, with air conditioning blasting on me. I was also sweating, as I do when I lecture and concentrate intensely. The following morning, I woke up aching all over with severe chill, and some clear phlegm accumulating in my throat. Later on, I saw Jim who felt my pulse and gave me two drops of an alchemical tincture to supplement kidney yang, and lo and behold, the symptoms dissipated completely in one half hour! I think this method is something worth looking into and developing. On a similar note, Michael Broffman at Pine St. Pharmacy is doing a study on Chinese powdered extracts that are reputedly 5000 to 1 with patients! It will be interesting to see the results! >Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The >fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular >classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not >in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use >different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing around >with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. > >Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I >like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula in >my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably >unintentionally). > >A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some >spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low >temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he >does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the >bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and >centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas >aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, >labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an >ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford >them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more >research can be done. > >I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for >cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I >tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their >pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by being >absorbed under the tongue. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 Zev: I would have guessed that the tincture I gave you was concentrated about 100:1 due to the oil (alchemical sulphur) content. But how does Broffman get powders to 5000??? Does it glow in the dark ((I've heard that there are alchemicl products that actually do; but have not verified that myself))? Jim , " " <zrosenberg@p...> wrote: > A point I'd like to make. . . . > A few years ago, I was speaking at the Pacific Symposium in a hotel where > the thermostat was set to 55* in November, with air conditioning blasting > on me. I was also sweating, as I do when I lecture and concentrate > intensely. The following morning, I woke up aching all over with severe > chill, and some clear phlegm accumulating in my throat. Later on, I saw > Jim who felt my pulse and gave me two drops of an alchemical tincture to > supplement kidney yang, and lo and behold, the symptoms dissipated > completely in one half hour! I think this method is something worth > looking into and developing. > > On a similar note, Michael Broffman at Pine St. Pharmacy is doing a study > on Chinese powdered extracts that are reputedly 5000 to 1 with patients! > It will be interesting to see the results! > > > > > > >Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The > >fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular > >classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not > >in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use > >different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing around > >with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. > > > >Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I > >like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula in > >my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably > >unintentionally). > > > >A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some > >spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low > >temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he > >does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of the > >bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and > >centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas > >aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, > >labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an > >ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford > >them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more > >research can be done. > > > >I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for > >cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I > >tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their > >pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by being > >absorbed under the tongue. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 I will be following up on this soon. >Zev: > >I would have guessed that the tincture I gave you was concentrated >about 100:1 due to the oil (alchemical sulphur) content. But how does >Broffman get powders to 5000??? Does it glow in the dark ((I've heard >that there are alchemicl products that actually do; but have not >verified that myself))? > >Jim > > > , " " ><zrosenberg@p...> wrote: >> A point I'd like to make. . . . >> A few years ago, I was speaking at the Pacific Symposium in a hotel >where >> the thermostat was set to 55* in November, with air conditioning >blasting >> on me. I was also sweating, as I do when I lecture and concentrate >> intensely. The following morning, I woke up aching all over with >severe >> chill, and some clear phlegm accumulating in my throat. Later on, >I saw >> Jim who felt my pulse and gave me two drops of an alchemical >tincture to >> supplement kidney yang, and lo and behold, the symptoms dissipated >> completely in one half hour! I think this method is something worth >> looking into and developing. >> >> On a similar note, Michael Broffman at Pine St. Pharmacy is doing a >study >> on Chinese powdered extracts that are reputedly 5000 to 1 with >patients! >> It will be interesting to see the results! >> >> >> >> >> >> >Thanks for your interest. I probably wasn't clear, though. The >> >fibonacci series is a mathematical series that I prepare regular >> >classical formulas according to, using concentrated powders and not >> >in spagryic tinctures. I studied with a Korean and they often use >> >different proportions in their formulas. So I've been playing >around >> >with the idea of the fibonacci series and golden mean. >> > >> >Interestingly, several Hua To formulas use the golden mean ratio (I >> >like to base my formulas on his work). The Hua To Ginseng formula >in >> >my book is one example where he using the golden mean (probably >> >unintentionally). >> > >> >A friend makes alchemical tinctures of Chinese formulas using some >> >spagyric methodologies but primarily done in vacuum at low >> >temperature. The key is using specialized solvents. For example, he >> >does the alchemical wine work (repeated distillations) for one of >the >> >bases. After distillation, the formulas then are separated and >> >centrifuged to remove unwanted oils, resins, and gunk. The formulas >> >aren't necessarily secret, but the extraction process is difficult, >> >labor-intensive, and expensive. The retail price was about $1000 an >> >ounce for the finished product. So only a few clients could afford >> >them. His lab isn't set up now, but I hope when he relocates more >> >research can be done. >> > >> >I used one or two of the alchemical tinctures instead of moxa for >> >cancer cases, chronic fatigue, and MS with very good results. I >> >tracked the changes created with the tincture by watching their >> >pulses. It added a lot of energy and by-passed the GI tract by >being >> >absorbed under the tongue. >> > > > >------ >Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. >Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already >registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: >http://click./1/2885/6/_/542111/_/956476125/ >------ > >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 As always I remain curious as to herbal preparations. From the books presented in schools it appears that the most frequent " traditional method " was simply to boil the herbs in the classic herbal cooking pot. This method used very high heat reducing the volume by 2/3. The shape of the vessel contributed to saving some vitals oils (I presume). This popular Chinese Method seems in opposition compared to the popular European Method of Tincture and Extraction where the emphasis is on low heat and a slow process. Or a simple infusion method into hot - not boiled - water. Obstinately the low heat was to prevent the destruction of certain plant ingredients. If this is so then wouldn't the same TCM formulas -- one made traditionally in a boiling pot and one made via European Extracted produce two different formulas ? Was that why it was said " the sages poisoned themselves a hundred times a day " really curious, Ed Kasper L.Ac, Santa Cruz California Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Hello James, " You are right, of course, I wasn't describing the same methods as you. I was only allowed to watch and am not very familiar with spagyrics. " I'd like to point out at this time that the Book " Handbook of plant alchemy " by my friend and colleague Manfred Junius is a must for doing any kind of herbal processing. Second item is the fact thast the bane of western herbal products is extraction technology ie the lack thereof. That is why a lot of the off the shelf feverfew and echinacea products dont work. Echinacea and feverfew do not like heat. As to chinese herbs, the books by Dagmar Ehling and Dan Bensky give good hints on when to heat and not. Further research is required on tincturing chinese herbs. You also wrote; " I was trying to describe the the Paracelsus method of separation of the elements; extracting the " sulfur " of a Chiense herbal formula. There's a diagram in the Philosophers of Nature Spagyrics Lesson 19, Figure 1, that closely outlines the whole process. " The PON lessons have little to do with medicinal spagyric preparations. To know Paracelsus, you have to read it directly. Gilbert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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