RE: A TCM challenge.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark:

 

You haven't talked about any efforts towards reducing her stress or

addressing psycho-spiritual issues. What is her work? Does she like her work?

What is her support system? What is her relationship with herself? From my

own experience, no amount of addressing the physical symptoms will be

effective if her psyche is as agitated as you report. Just what is causing

such agitation? What about working on her heart/kidney harmony?

 

Julie Chambers, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

Hello Mark,

Ive treated a few patients with endometriosis type symptoms and have had

to deal with the issue myself one of the most significant changes these

people can do is t first take all caffein incliding chocolate out of their

diet , then dairy all forms (cheese, yougurt etc), as well as sugar all

these are pretty necessary for your treatments to be more effective .It

would also be good to advise taichi or yoga a more stress releiving

excersize.I know this is not stricktly TCM and im sorry if it a problem

in this setting but having your patient take this step is really helpfull.

 

Regards

Alighta Averbukh

 

-

Mark Reese <tcm2

Chinese Herbal Medicine

Thursday, May 04, 2000 12:00 AM

A TCM challenge.

 

 

>

>

> Dear group:

>

> I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like this, preferring to

puzzle

> them out myself. Usually this works well for me. However I have a major

> challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out there.

>

> One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear to me, however she

not

> responded to almost any attempts to help her out. She has been coming to

> see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm not sure why. Only a

few

> of her complaints have been addressed.

>

> I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is her case:

>

> Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and of healthy weight.

> Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job, made worse by her innate

> anxiety.

>

> Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and ovarian cysts.

>

> Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue (worse with stress,

> exercise, before and during her period), occassional night sweats (~2 a

> month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees, but wandering throughout

> her body), sleep is often fitful with problems falling asleep and problems

> waking up througout night (made worse with stressful situations at work),

> headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3 times a month very severe

> (no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach is easily upset by

> food ( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly frequently, alternating

> constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly reduced, constant

> thirst, often feels hot during day --- but occcassionally is

> inappropriately chilled, dry itchy 'yeast' infections around her period,

> anxious --- often inapproprately (Xanax and the like haven't helped, but

> neither have herbs), easily bloated througout her whole body

(occassionally

> worsened by her mestrual cycle), and frequent urination.

>

> Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that deficient feeling. Her

> tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an appropriate thin white

> coat.

>

> Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come across as a whiner.

She

> is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point this out to separate

> her from that certain type of acu-client who lives for their symptoms.

>

> I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi stagnation issues:

> invading into the stomach and the spleen, and holding strong sway over her

> mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date have centered around

> that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a given as well. In

> addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here and there --- which I

> never really treated via herbs due to there cloying effect upon the SP.

>

> In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly textbook formulas for

> harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results. Administering variations on this

> herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give them ample time to

> work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed with the formulas,

> adding damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear damp heat. The most

> significant improvement that she saw was upon taking the Health Concerns

> product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal with the stomach

> issues, but not the spleen problems.

>

> I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Mark Reese, L.Ac.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------

> Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that lets

> you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

> http://click./1/3012/6/_/542111/_/957449703/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

[Guest guest]

> I would suspect that this woman has a food allergy. This is not the usual

> subject in TCM, but we live in a different lifestyle and dietary context than

> traditional China and sometimes the " ground " has to be restored before

> traditional treatments will be effective. Perhaps 20% of my Western patients

> are totally intolerant of dairy, and another 20% intolerant of any glutenous

> grains. the figures are higher for Asians or African-Americans. The proteins

> in these foods are treated as antigens in the gut, with resulting

> disharmonies of stomach, spleen, and liver. Herbs will sometimes mask the

> symptoms, as the Health Concerns formula did, but they return once the herbs

> are removed. Once the food allergen is removed (an art in itself) the

> traditional treatments begin to work better. In this case I doubt that the

> food allergy is causing everything, but probably nothing will get better

> until the St-Sp disharmonies are corrected.

 

--

Paul Bergner

Editor, Medical Herbalism

Clinical Program Director, Rocky Mountain Center for Botanical Studies

[Guest guest]

To all responders on this TCM challenge: I am surprised at the responses

which mostly seem to focus on non-Chinese medicine concepts like candidiasis,

allergies, etc. In my training, I was taught to look at the bigger picture:

the shen. This is just an observation; most of you are probably more

experienced clinically than I am (3+ years only). But, everyone seems to be

overlooking her anxiety, which her practitioner mentioned several times and

extreme and inappropriate. What's that about?

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

just a thought: how about vinegar and honey tablespoon before meals.

breaks up stagnation and tonifies.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

 

 

Mark Reese [tcm2]

Thursday, May 04, 2000 12:00 AM

Chinese Herbal Medicine

A TCM challenge.

Dear group:

I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like this, preferring to puzzle

them out myself. Usually this works well for me. However I have a major

challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out there.

 

One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear to me, however she not

responded to almost any attempts to help her out. She has been coming to

see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm not sure why. Only a few

of her complaints have been addressed.

I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is her case:

 

Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and of healthy weight.

Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job, made worse by her innate

anxiety.

 

Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and ovarian cysts.

 

Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue (worse with

stress,exercise, before and during her period), occassional night sweats (~2

a month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees, but wandering throughout

her body), sleep is often fitful with problems falling asleep and problems

waking up througout night (made worse with stressful situations at work),

headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3 times a month very severe

(no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach is easily upset by food

( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly frequently, alternating

constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly reduced, constant

thirst, often feels hot during day --- but occcassionally is inappropriately

chilled, dry itchy 'yeast' infections around her period, anxious --- often

inapproprately (Xanax and the like haven't helped, but neither have herbs),

easily bloated througout her whole body (occassionally worsened by her

mestrual cycle), and frequent urination.

 

Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that deficient feeling. Her

tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an appropriate thin white

coat.

 

Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come across as a whiner. She

is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point this out to separate her

from that certain type of acu-client who lives for their symptoms.

 

I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi stagnation issues:

invading into the stomach and the spleen, and holding strong sway over her

mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date have centered around

that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a given as well. In

addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here and there --- which I

never really treated via herbs due to there cloying effect upon the SP.

 

In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly textbook formulas for

harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results. Administering variations on this

herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give them ample time to

work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed with the formulas, adding

damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear damp heat. The most

significant improvement that she saw was upon taking the Health Concerns

product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal with the stomach issues,

but not the spleen problems.

 

I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,

Mark Reese, L.Ac.

[Guest guest]

Mark,

While there are definately candida yeast issues with this patient, I

have often seen this type of clinical picture in my own practice. This is

definately in the realm of Li Dong-yuan spleen stomach cases, where

supplementation of the spleen/stomach is the central issue, combined with

medicinals to strengthen kidney qi, disinhibit damp heat and cold blood

stasis from the lower burner, AND regulate liver qi. Dealing only with the

liver qi depression cannot work if the spleen/stomach and qi hua/qi

transformation are not functioning properly.

I would ask if this patient has:

1)stressful relationships

2) has ever used the pill or had an abortion

3) has sweet cravings or poor diet

 

Often, long term use of antibiotics or hormones could set off a pattern

like this.

 

Look forward to your response,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Dear group:

>

>I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like this, preferring to puzzle

>them out myself. Usually this works well for me. However I have a major

>challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out there.

>

>One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear to me, however she not

>responded to almost any attempts to help her out. She has been coming to

>see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm not sure why. Only a few

>of her complaints have been addressed.

>

>I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is her case:

>

>Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and of healthy weight.

>Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job, made worse by her innate

>anxiety.

>

>Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and ovarian cysts.

>

>Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue (worse with stress,

>exercise, before and during her period), occassional night sweats (~2 a

>month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees, but wandering throughout

>her body), sleep is often fitful with problems falling asleep and problems

>waking up througout night (made worse with stressful situations at work),

>headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3 times a month very severe

>(no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach is easily upset by

>food ( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly frequently, alternating

>constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly reduced, constant

>thirst, often feels hot during day --- but occcassionally is

>inappropriately chilled, dry itchy 'yeast' infections around her period,

>anxious --- often inapproprately (Xanax and the like haven't helped, but

>neither have herbs), easily bloated througout her whole body (occassionally

>worsened by her mestrual cycle), and frequent urination.

>

>Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that deficient feeling. Her

>tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an appropriate thin white

>coat.

>

>Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come across as a whiner. She

>is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point this out to separate

>her from that certain type of acu-client who lives for their symptoms.

>

>I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi stagnation issues:

>invading into the stomach and the spleen, and holding strong sway over her

>mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date have centered around

>that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a given as well. In

>addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here and there --- which I

>never really treated via herbs due to there cloying effect upon the SP.

>

>In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly textbook formulas for

>harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results. Administering variations on this

>herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give them ample time to

>work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed with the formulas,

>adding damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear damp heat. The most

>significant improvement that she saw was upon taking the Health Concerns

>product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal with the stomach

>issues, but not the spleen problems.

>

>I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

>

>Thank you in advance.

>

>Sincerely,

>

>Mark Reese, L.Ac.

>

>

>

>

>

>------

>Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that lets

>you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

>http://click./1/3012/6/_/542111/_/957449703/

>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

I'm honored by your reply.

 

The woman has been tested for food allergies ad nauseum. She had spent

several years totally eliminating the usual suspects from her diet, with no

improvement in symptoms (though substantial decrease in quality of life!).

 

In answer to your questions:

 

1. The patient has had a few romantic relationships of typical stress,

nothing traumatic though.

2. She has used the pill, but not for several years.

3.She doesnt' crave sweets unusually, and tries to eat a good diet (from

TCM and western points of view) with rare indiscretions now that she has

given up on food allergy/candida diets.

 

Thanks to you and everyone for giving this some thought.

 

Mark Reese

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

 

I have seen this scenario many times. I suspect this woman has systemic

canditiasis. This could explain all of her symptoms. I would consider

the following:

 

Eliminate all sugar , refined carbos and sugar containing foods

including fruits.

 

Olive leaf extract from DaVinci labs 2 tabs tid.

 

Pau D'arco Tea constantly.

 

Eat a big clove of raw garlic daily or TAP Garlic (enteric coated) 1 tab

tid again from DaVinci Labs.

 

2 caps first thing in the morning of Flora 20-14 from BioSan Labs.

 

L-Glutamine 500mg. tid

 

A good whole food Multi. like Biomax from BioSan Labs.

 

" Advanced Innune Support " from Rx Vitamins. Magic stuff, I,ve also used

it for stubborn sinus infections...check it out at

http:\\www.rxvitamins.com

 

The chinese patent Chien Chin Chih Tai Wan might also be helpful... at

least it will make you feel somewhat like you are practicing TCM.

 

Try to get her to slow down, chew her food well and not eat on the run.

If this is not possible, consider digestive enzymes, HCl and Pepsin with

all meals.

 

If I'm on the right track here, improvement should be appearant within

one week. Treatment should continue until two menses are infection

free. After that, your TCM balancing and fine tuning should work

perfectly.

 

Best regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

Julie,

I agree with you. However, on the anxiety issue, it is difficult to put

in context in e-mail format. . . .one would have to question the patient to

find the source of the anxiety, its qualities and expressions. One can

look at the Shang Han Lun discussions on ben tun/running piglet pattern,

where qi rushes up from the lower burner to the chest, which appears to be

closely related to many manifestations of anxiety, and is related to kidney

qi vacuity. Other forms of anxiety are related to heart fire, liver qi

depression, etc. It is difficult to list all the ramifications of a case.

.. ..and I am sure that there are many aspects of the case not listed here.

 

As far as the non-Chinese medicine concepts: 1) they are percieved by

our patients, and have to be understood and recalibrated into the TCM

diagnosis. 2) the use of the western concepts and treatment modalities

does, in my opinion, show a lack in education of Chinese medicine in the

West. If practitioners had ample tools and diagnostic acumen to deal with

these phenomena within TCM, they probably would not resort to these methods

without dealing with it from a Chinese medical perspective FIRST.

 

 

 

>To all responders on this TCM challenge: I am surprised at the responses

>which mostly seem to focus on non-Chinese medicine concepts like candidiasis,

>allergies, etc. In my training, I was taught to look at the bigger picture:

>the shen. This is just an observation; most of you are probably more

>experienced clinically than I am (3+ years only). But, everyone seems to be

>overlooking her anxiety, which her practitioner mentioned several times and

>extreme and inappropriate. What's that about?

>

>Julie Chambers

>

[Guest guest]

I was told that a formula or approach didn't work I should look to see if I

was trying to do too much at once.

Break the problem down to it's core. Make a decision on what needs to be done

first.

1) blood Dif turning to Yin Dif. at night W/Dif heat of the heart

2) Liver Stag Causing liver invading sp. stom. and liv wind

 

Try a formula to tonify and vitalize blood as a base. Adding liv herbs as

blood Dif systems relent

[Guest guest]

Such a lot of interesting ideas on this case. We haven't heard back from the

original writer. I'd still love to hear more about her psychological state

and how she herself perceives her life.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Thank you Z'ev. I agree. There is little chance of rigidity with all the

various ways to apply chinese medicine. I feel it is important to continue to

look deeper into the roots of our medicine instead of practicing a hodge

podge of techniques. Julie

[Guest guest]

I agree, we are over-emotionalized in our culture, and we tend to

" dote " on our emotions. And that it is not always useful to engage in

self-absorbed probings of the emotional states. However, I would guide her

toward taoist readings or practices such as qigong, the concept of an empty

heart and meditation practice. If I knew more about her emotional state, and

which shen was affected, I would work on that system with herbs and

acupuncture. I agree we are not trained to practice psychology, nor to treat

serious psychological imbalances. But I do think as holistic practitioners,

it is within our scope to counsel from a lifestyle point of view. For

example, perhaps she is caught in a professional work situation that is

making her sick from stress. Perhaps she is in unhealthy relationships with

her family. These things could be talked about in the context of the

relationship between her stressors and her digestive complaints.

 

We have a wonderful teacher at Yo San who practices from a " shen disharmony "

point of view (Carolyn Cohen) and she is very clear in her teaching that we

do not overstep our scope but that there are many treatments we can prescribe

to treat shen problems, all the way from physical treatments such as

acupuncture to work and relationship counseling, meditation, qigong (she is

very, very much in favor of teaching simple qigong moves for shen problems)

and so on.

 

I hope I've answered your question somewhat. I'm on my way to San Francisco

so won't be able to catch your answer until Monday.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark...I enjoy a good case study, but feel a bit

egotistical at times when asked to comment. Bear with

me...

 

First, as you know, a woman with a plethora of chronic

complaints, will not respond well to treatment until

the digestion (st/sp/ki/liv...) and the menses (liv,

ki, ren, chong...) have been regulated. I am mostly

concerned about the anxiety/stress in her life. It

seems that the injury to her yin/blood and the

resultant heat w/ blood stasis is life-style related.

With some meditation, and some connection to this

issue, she may begin responding to your treatments.

 

Also related may be her diet. She may be eating

things (and probably is) that lend to perpetuating her

energetic imbalance instead of helping it. Be firm

with her, and get her to make some strict changes (no

coffee, alcohol, minimize other liver irritants;

pain-killers {yes, I know...}, caffeine, sugar...

Her body obviously is sending her messages that

something she is doing, is simply not right.

 

Good luck, and let me know how things go...

 

Paul Gerst L.Ac.

 

 

 

--- Mark Reese <tcm2 wrote:

>

>

> Dear group:

>

> I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like

> this, preferring to puzzle

> them out myself. Usually this works well for me.

> However I have a major

> challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out

> there.

>

> One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear

> to me, however she not

> responded to almost any attempts to help her out.

> She has been coming to

> see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm

> not sure why. Only a few

> of her complaints have been addressed.

>

> I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is

> her case:

>

> Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and

> of healthy weight.

> Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job,

> made worse by her innate

> anxiety.

>

> Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and

> ovarian cysts.

>

> Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue

> (worse with stress,

> exercise, before and during her period), occassional

> night sweats (~2 a

> month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees,

> but wandering throughout

> her body), sleep is often fitful with problems

> falling asleep and problems

> waking up througout night (made worse with stressful

> situations at work),

> headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3

> times a month very severe

> (no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach

> is easily upset by

> food ( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly

> frequently, alternating

> constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly

> reduced, constant

> thirst, often feels hot during day --- but

> occcassionally is

> inappropriately chilled, dry itchy 'yeast'

> infections around her period,

> anxious --- often inapproprately (Xanax and the like

> haven't helped, but

> neither have herbs), easily bloated througout her

> whole body (occassionally

> worsened by her mestrual cycle), and frequent

> urination.

>

> Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that

> deficient feeling. Her

> tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an

> appropriate thin white

> coat.

>

> Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come

> across as a whiner. She

> is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point

> this out to separate

> her from that certain type of acu-client who lives

> for their symptoms.

>

> I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi

> stagnation issues:

> invading into the stomach and the spleen, and

> holding strong sway over her

> mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date

> have centered around

> that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a

> given as well. In

> addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here

> and there --- which I

> never really treated via herbs due to there cloying

> effect upon the SP.

>

> In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly

> textbook formulas for

> harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results.

> Administering variations on this

> herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give

> them ample time to

> work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed

> with the formulas,

> adding damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear

> damp heat. The most

> significant improvement that she saw was upon taking

> the Health Concerns

> product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal

> with the stomach

> issues, but not the spleen problems.

>

> I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be

> appreciated.

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Mark Reese, L.Ac.

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

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[Guest guest]

One more thing: I would not want her to pay excessive attention to " how she

feels " , but I would want her to examine closely " how she lives. " There is a

huge difference. She needs to make a change, somewhere. Herbs and acupuncture

can clarify for a person what that change needs to be. I have experienced

this myself and seen it happen to many people.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

> As far as the non-Chinese medicine concepts: 1) they are percieved by

> our patients, and have to be understood and recalibrated into the TCM

> diagnosis. 2) the use of the western concepts and treatment modalities

> does, in my opinion, show a lack in education of Chinese medicine in the

> West. If practitioners had ample tools and diagnostic acumen to deal with

> these phenomena within TCM, they probably would not resort to these methods

> without dealing with it from a Chinese medical perspective FIRST.

>

>

 

According to Mark's original post, he has been treating the lady for 1.5 yrs.

using TCM. After that amount of time, one would think she should have improved.

Since she hasn't, maybe another way of looking at the situation is in order.

The

way I see this case, she got into this situation due to Western Meds/lifestyle.

TCM is subtle, her situation is not and I have never seen a case like hers

resolved by TCM alone (albeit only seven years practice and still a recovering

electronics engineer). I'm not saying one should eschew TCM... I am suggesting

being open to a little eclectic thinking as needed. Bruce

 

P.S. One last thought. I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes:

Absolute rigid thinking soley to TCM looks exactly like most allopathic

practitioners attitude toward anything outside their protocols...

[Guest guest]

>>Such a lot of interesting ideas on this case. We haven't heard back from the

>>original writer. I'd still love to hear more about her psychological state

>>and how she herself perceives her life.

 

>>Julie Chambers

 

Obviously, the emotional-psychological stuff has great bearing on this case.

 

 

 

 

>> As far as the non-Chinese medicine concepts: 1) they are percieved by

>> our patients, and have to be understood and recalibrated into the TCM

>> diagnosis. 2) the use of the western concepts and treatment modalities

>> does, in my opinion, show a lack in education of Chinese medicine in the

>> West. If practitioners had ample tools and diagnostic acumen to deal with

>> these phenomena within TCM, they probably would not resort to these methods

>> without dealing with it from a Chinese medical perspective FIRST.

>>

>>

>

>According to Mark's original post, he has been treating the lady for 1.5 yrs.

>using TCM. After that amount of time, one would think she should have

>improved.

>Since she hasn't, maybe another way of looking at the situation is in

>order. The

>way I see this case, she got into this situation due to Western

>Meds/lifestyle.

>TCM is subtle, her situation is not and I have never seen a case like hers

>resolved by TCM alone (albeit only seven years practice and still a recovering

>electronics engineer). I'm not saying one should eschew TCM... I am

>suggesting

>being open to a little eclectic thinking as needed. Bruce

>

>P.S. One last thought. I'll probably get flamed for this but here goes:

>Absolute rigid thinking soley to TCM looks exactly like most allopathic

>practitioners attitude toward anything outside their protocols...

 

I think here that there was a problem with your education. . . .a system as

vast as Chinese medicine cannot be completely exhausted in study or

practice in one or many lifetimes. . .rigidity of thinking comes from

limited exposure and perspective, not from study of this vast and amazing

medicine.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bruce

 

I don't think anyone is dismissing the potential therapeutic value of

a

wide variety of eclectic approaches to healing. However, we must be

clear that this is not TCM. Perhaps the term TCM is confusing

people.

When I say TCM, I mean the practice of bian zheng lun zhi, the

hallmark

of chinese medicine. This is differentiation of patterns based on

signs and symptoms. If we are to accept the validity of diagnoses

like

food allergies and candidiasis, we must then also admit they are

bing,

not zheng. In other words, these are more like diseases than

patterns.

An empirical treatment that addresses candidiasis is an allopathic

treatment. Candida patients present with a multiplicity of patterns

underlying this disease.

 

As Fruehauf and Flaws have argued and my experience seems to agree,

the

typical empirical approach to this illness often causes more harm

than

good. This can only be assessed when the patient is examined with

the

four exams of TCM. But the use of strong bitter herbs and cleansing

diet is actually not appropriate for many such patients with severe

spleen xu. I think we should listen carefully to folks like Zev and

Flaws, who have been practicing for 20 years and have been through

the

this clinical dilemma countless times. They also dabbled in these

eclectic ideas before they realized how they often they conflicted

with

TCM bian zheng.

 

We can certainly argue about what are appropriate therapies in TCM,

but

we cannot ever dismiss bian zheng as our guiding principle. This

principle underlies all classical asian medicine, not just modern as

opposed to modern basic textbooks, is infinitely flexible, not at all

rigid. The comparison with allopathy is not valid in my opinion

because allopathy diagnoses disease (bing, not zheng). I really

think

the trend towards uncritical empiricism is much more akin to

allopathy.

 

 

>

> P.S. One last thought. I'll probably get flamed for this but here

goes:

> Absolute rigid thinking soley to TCM looks exactly like most

allopathic

> practitioners attitude toward anything outside their protocols...

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

>

> I think here that there was a problem with your education. . . .a system as

> vast as Chinese medicine cannot be completely exhausted in study or

> practice in one or many lifetimes. . .rigidity of thinking comes from

> limited exposure and perspective, not from study of this vast and amazing

> medicine.

 

Just as I predicted. And I absolutely agree, however since I came to TCM late

in

life, I won't have time to learn it all... so what I am doing is learning what

works... and for my practice, it is often eclectic. Maybe it is due in part to

studying western and later ayurvedic herbology before TCM. The reason I study

TCM

is that the evaluation techniques are brillianty elegant (to my former engineer

mind).

 

Happy to be part of this list.

 

Best regards to all, Bruce

[Guest guest]

Julie

 

Assuming we knew more about this patient's psychology, I am curious

what your next step would be. has largely relied on

herbal and physical methods to address the psyche. While taoist and

buddhist approaches have a variety of mental techniques, these were

never really incorporated into bian zheng medicine. It is also

questionable whether our training enables us to intervene with

psychological modalities, anyway. I focus on the herbs in my

practice

and direct patients towards relaxation methods outside my clinic. I

have rarely seen psychoanalytic/counseling methods do much long term

good, as I believe they exacerbate the fundamental emotional issue in

the west. Which is this excessive attention to how one feels. That

itself is considered the essential mental pathology by buddhism and

taoism. Taoist philosophy suggests learning to ride the waves of

emotions safely, not to pick them apart endlessly looking for the

original cause. what do you think?

 

 

, juliej8@a... wrote:

> Such a lot of interesting ideas on this case. We haven't heard back

from the

> original writer. I'd still love to hear more about her

psychological state

> and how she herself perceives her life.

>

> Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

Julie

 

How is bian zheng used in selecting the psych method. Since we are

unified bodyminds in TCM, any psych method must also be done

according

to bian zheng. for example, qi gong may supplementing or dispersing

depnding on the form, etc. A xu patient should not be doing a

dispersion form and the phenomena of qi gong sickness is well known

in

china, often stemming from excess patients gathering excess qi.

 

 

> We have a wonderful teacher at Yo San who practices from a " shen

disharmony "

> point of view (Carolyn Cohen) and she is very clear in her teaching

that we

> do not overstep our scope but that there are many treatments we can

prescribe

> to treat shen problems, all the way from physical treatments such

as

> acupuncture to work and relationship counseling, meditation, qigong

(she is

> very, very much in favor of teaching simple qigong moves for shen

problems)

> and so on.

>

> I hope I've answered your question somewhat. I'm on my way to San

Francisco

> so won't be able to catch your answer until Monday.

>

> Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

well put and this is more than a semantic difference.

 

, juliej8@a... wrote:

> One more thing: I would not want her to pay excessive attention to

" how she

> feels " , but I would want her to examine closely " how she lives. "

There is a

> huge difference. She needs to make a change, somewhere. Herbs and

acupuncture

> can clarify for a person what that change needs to be. I have

experienced

> this myself and seen it happen to many people.

>

> Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

" Flame-off! " No worries Bruce, " absolute rigid

thinking " in any regard is usually more of a

detriment.

But one note: We are trained TCM practitioners (yes,

many have chosen to combine various

techniques/skills--but one practitioner combining

systems...well, I have not seen anyone do this where

one system doesn't take a backseat) and we need to

" practice " TCM.

 

You say TCM is not helping this patient...where I

would say that there are other variables, the

practitioner being a very important one, in question

here. No offense to the practitioner, we all have our

patients we struggle with, no doubt. But I agree

whole-heartedly that if one doesn't have results, an

appropriate referral should be made.

 

 

 

--- " Bruce Youngberg HHP, OBT " <tcm wrote:

> > As far as the non-Chinese medicine concepts: 1)

> they are percieved by

> > our patients, and have to be understood and

> recalibrated into the TCM

> > diagnosis. 2) the use of the western concepts and

> treatment modalities

> > does, in my opinion, show a lack in education of

> Chinese medicine in the

> > West. If practitioners had ample tools and

> diagnostic acumen to deal with

> > these phenomena within TCM, they probably would

> not resort to these methods

> > without dealing with it from a Chinese medical

> perspective FIRST.

> >

> >

>

> According to Mark's original post, he has been

> treating the lady for 1.5 yrs.

> using TCM. After that amount of time, one would

> think she should have improved.

> Since she hasn't, maybe another way of looking at

> the situation is in order. The

> way I see this case, she got into this situation due

> to Western Meds/lifestyle.

> TCM is subtle, her situation is not and I have never

> seen a case like hers

> resolved by TCM alone (albeit only seven years

> practice and still a recovering

> electronics engineer). I'm not saying one should

> eschew TCM... I am suggesting

> being open to a little eclectic thinking as needed.

> Bruce

>

> P.S. One last thought. I'll probably get flamed

> for this but here goes:

> Absolute rigid thinking soley to TCM looks exactly

> like most allopathic

> practitioners attitude toward anything outside their

> protocols...

>

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

 

On this issue, I would say that a predominance of a particular emotional

pattern points to five phase correspondences with the yin viscera, and

could give us more to work with in this patient. Also, emotional and

behavioral patterns are definately within our scope, something lifestyle

changes or councelling could help, as well as acumoxatherapy and herbal

medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

>Julie

>

>Assuming we knew more about this patient's psychology, I am curious

>what your next step would be. has largely relied on

>herbal and physical methods to address the psyche. While taoist and

>buddhist approaches have a variety of mental techniques, these were

>never really incorporated into bian zheng medicine. It is also

>questionable whether our training enables us to intervene with

>psychological modalities, anyway. I focus on the herbs in my

>practice

>and direct patients towards relaxation methods outside my clinic. I

>have rarely seen psychoanalytic/counseling methods do much long term

>good, as I believe they exacerbate the fundamental emotional issue in

>the west. Which is this excessive attention to how one feels. That

>itself is considered the essential mental pathology by buddhism and

>taoism. Taoist philosophy suggests learning to ride the waves of

>emotions safely, not to pick them apart endlessly looking for the

>original cause. what do you think?

>

>Todd

>

>

> , juliej8@a... wrote:

>> Such a lot of interesting ideas on this case. We haven't heard back

>from the

>> original writer. I'd still love to hear more about her

>psychological state

>> and how she herself perceives her life.

>>

>> Julie Chambers

>

>

>

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

[Guest guest]

I agree with your words, and because this is your

belief, you SHOULD be referring (as should most of the

rest of us) these matters to others. But as you said

in regards to Taoist belief, showing our patient how

to ride the waves may not be outside the scope of our

medicine depending on how one chooses to accomplish

said goal.

 

Kato Kae...er, I mean...Paul Gerst

 

 

 

--- herb-t wrote:

> Julie

>

> Assuming we knew more about this patient's

> psychology, I am curious

> what your next step would be. has

> largely relied on

> herbal and physical methods to address the psyche.

> While taoist and

> buddhist approaches have a variety of mental

> techniques, these were

> never really incorporated into bian zheng medicine.

> It is also

> questionable whether our training enables us to

> intervene with

> psychological modalities, anyway. I focus on the

> herbs in my

> practice

> and direct patients towards relaxation methods

> outside my clinic. I

> have rarely seen psychoanalytic/counseling methods

> do much long term

> good, as I believe they exacerbate the fundamental

> emotional issue in

> the west. Which is this excessive attention to how

> one feels. That

> itself is considered the essential mental pathology

> by buddhism and

> taoism. Taoist philosophy suggests learning to ride

> the waves of

> emotions safely, not to pick them apart endlessly

> looking for the

> original cause. what do you think?

>

 

>

>

> , juliej8@a...

> wrote:

> > Such a lot of interesting ideas on this case. We

> haven't heard back

> from the

> > original writer. I'd still love to hear more about

> her

> psychological state

> > and how she herself perceives her life.

> >

> > Julie Chambers

>

>

>

 

 

 

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