RE: A TCM challenge.

May 5, 2000

Julie...you put it so much more eloquently than I did.

Paul Gerst

--- juliej8 wrote:

> I agree, we are over-emotionalized in our

> culture, and we tend to

> " dote " on our emotions. And that it is not always

> useful to engage in

> self-absorbed probings of the emotional states.

> However, I would guide her

> toward taoist readings or practices such as qigong,

> the concept of an empty

> heart and meditation practice. If I knew more about

> her emotional state, and

> which shen was affected, I would work on that system

> with herbs and

> acupuncture. I agree we are not trained to practice

> psychology, nor to treat

> serious psychological imbalances. But I do think as

> holistic practitioners,

> it is within our scope to counsel from a lifestyle

> point of view. For

> example, perhaps she is caught in a professional

> work situation that is

> making her sick from stress. Perhaps she is in

> unhealthy relationships with

> her family. These things could be talked about in

> the context of the

> relationship between her stressors and her digestive

> complaints.

>

> We have a wonderful teacher at Yo San who practices

> from a " shen disharmony "

> point of view (Carolyn Cohen) and she is very clear

> in her teaching that we

> do not overstep our scope but that there are many

> treatments we can prescribe

> to treat shen problems, all the way from physical

> treatments such as

> acupuncture to work and relationship counseling,

> meditation, qigong (she is

> very, very much in favor of teaching simple qigong

> moves for shen problems)

> and so on.

>

> I hope I've answered your question somewhat. I'm on

> my way to San Francisco

> so won't be able to catch your answer until Monday.

>

> Julie Chambers

>

Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger.

http://im./

May 5, 2000

Mark,

Your probably going to hate this answer- Candida. (aka Bowel

Toxaemia/Dysbiosis/Large Intestine Damp Heat-Toxin, etc, etc, etc)

Candida is probably not the only problem, but if that isn't cleared 1st, not

much else will really help.

Candida/Yeast/Bowel Dysbiosis (call it whatever you want) causes fermentation

in the gut, and inflammation of the membranes lining the gut wall, inhibits

proper assimilation of nutrients (multi factorial symptoms), inflammation

further leads to " leaky gut " , so you get toxins, and partially digested

proteins floating around in the blood, the toxins affect the Brain/CNS

(remember the bit about the connection tween the S.I. and Heart - Spirit -

Mind), headaches, insomnia, irritablitity, depression, insomnia v. commonly

seen with this.

Also affects the hormone balance in the body, and creates liver toxicity (one

feeds back on the other), so endo is not surprising (really a seperate issue,

but not really likely to improve till the yeast issue is cleared), since this

pattern really screws up the hormones. Probably not a lot to due with TCM for

the cysts, but clear up the Candida/Yeast/Dysbiosis, then you can get down to

the endo later.

Also all the toxins, and proteins floating around in the blood will also

screw up the immune system functioning, set up the pt. for auto immune type

inflammations, pain, swellings, plus invasion by viruses/bacteria (wind

heat-toxins/yin fire in spleen/hidden heat etc) will further aggravate the

whole situation, aggravate fatigue, promote painful swollen joints that come

and go, myalgias etc. If you palpate, yoou will probably find swollen nodes

in multiple locations.

The recurring vaginal Yeast infections, sour stomach, reflux, nausea, and

alt. diarrhea/constipation and the (partial) improvement with herbal

digestive's are also indicators pointing toward the candida prob..

Center here is clearing the Candida/Yeast/Damp-Heat-Toxins from the gut with

digestives and heat clearing herbs, +/- maybe some mild yin tonics and liver

detoxer's.

anyway, thats my $.02 worth, hope it helps.

Bruce

--(original message

follows)-

In a message dated 05/04/2000 7:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

tcm2 writes:

<< Subj: A TCM challenge.

05/04/2000 7:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time

tcm2 (Mark Reese)

Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >

@</A>

(Chinese Herbal Medicine)

Dear group:

I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like this, preferring to puzzle

them out myself. Usually this works well for me. However I have a major

challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out there.

One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear to me, however she not

responded to almost any attempts to help her out. She has been coming to

see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm not sure why. Only a few

of her complaints have been addressed.

I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is her case:

Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and of healthy weight.

Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job, made worse by her innate

anxiety.

Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and ovarian cysts.

Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue (worse with stress,

exercise, before and during her period), occassional night sweats (~2 a

month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees, but wandering throughout

her body), sleep is often fitful with problems falling asleep and problems

waking up througout night (made worse with stressful situations at work),

headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3 times a month very severe

(no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach is easily upset by

food ( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly frequently, alternating

constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly reduced, constant

thirst, often feels hot during day --- but occcassionally is

inappropriately chilled, dry itchy 'yeast' infections around her period,

anxious --- often inapproprately (Xanax and the like haven't helped, but

neither have herbs), easily bloated througout her whole body (occassionally

worsened by her mestrual cycle), and frequent urination.

Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that deficient feeling. Her

tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an appropriate thin white

coat.

Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come across as a whiner. She

is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point this out to separate

her from that certain type of acu-client who lives for their symptoms.

I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi stagnation issues:

invading into the stomach and the spleen, and holding strong sway over her

mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date have centered around

that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a given as well. In

addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here and there --- which I

never really treated via herbs due to there cloying effect upon the SP.

In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly textbook formulas for

harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results. Administering variations on this

herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give them ample time to

work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed with the formulas,

adding damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear damp heat. The most

significant improvement that she saw was upon taking the Health Concerns

product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal with the stomach

issues, but not the spleen problems.

I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Sincerely,

Mark Reese, L.Ac.

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A TCM challenge.

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May 6, 2000

Mark,

I've treated numerous women with endometriosis and ovarian cysts, usually

utilizing Li Dong-Yuan's theories as the core of my treatment. I've found

blood-moving and phlegm-damp medicinals very effective as well as other

approaches which have been posted. However, you've received many

recommendations and I'm not here to reiterate what has already been said. I

only want to add that the western disease named " endometriosis " is a MAJOR

risk factor for a number of different kinds of cancers, including

non-Hodgkins lymphoma. So while she has been tested for food allergies " ad

nausem " , many of her symptoms could be explained by something much more

serious than candida, etc. I personally would want her to be checked out by

a western doc for this possibility.

I've also treated many patients with different kinds of cancers, including

non-Hodgkins lymphoma, so I'm not arguing against treatment with CM.

However, I feel that my patients have the right to know the western name of

their disease as well as the Chinese. It enables them to make educated

choices about their treatment.

Good luck.

Toni

May 6, 2000

As Todd mentioned earlier, certainly candida is a major factor in many

patients' conditions. . . .but. . . .

How do we understand this in the context of Chinese medicine, so we don't

just do symptomatic treatment? Your suggestion to clear damp heat toxins

and nourish yin may be appropriate IN SOME CASES, but what do 'liver

detoxers' have to do with Chinese medicine? How can one explain what that

is in Chinese medicine, since no known text has ever mentioned liver detox?

This concept just creates confusion between Western naturopathic medicine

and Chinese medicine. . . .you'd better choose which system you want to

base your treatment on.

Candida is the biao/branch. . .what is the ben/root? Without knowing the

root, treatment is only symptomatic, and the symptoms will return. Why

supplement yin? Is candida always damp-heat? What is the mechanism here?

And how would you define 'liver detox' in a Chinese medicine context?

Again and again, we are seeing that we are relying on being eclectic to

cover up our lack of grasping the essence of what we propose to practice:

Chinese medicine.

>Mark,

>

>Your probably going to hate this answer- Candida. (aka Bowel

>Toxaemia/Dysbiosis/Large Intestine Damp Heat-Toxin, etc, etc, etc)

>

>Candida is probably not the only problem, but if that isn't cleared 1st, not

>much else will really help.

>

>Candida/Yeast/Bowel Dysbiosis (call it whatever you want) causes fermentation

>in the gut, and inflammation of the membranes lining the gut wall, inhibits

>proper assimilation of nutrients (multi factorial symptoms), inflammation

>further leads to " leaky gut " , so you get toxins, and partially digested

>proteins floating around in the blood, the toxins affect the Brain/CNS

>(remember the bit about the connection tween the S.I. and Heart - Spirit -

>Mind), headaches, insomnia, irritablitity, depression, insomnia v. commonly

>seen with this.

>

>Also affects the hormone balance in the body, and creates liver toxicity (one

>feeds back on the other), so endo is not surprising (really a seperate issue,

>but not really likely to improve till the yeast issue is cleared), since this

>pattern really screws up the hormones. Probably not a lot to due with TCM for

>the cysts, but clear up the Candida/Yeast/Dysbiosis, then you can get down to

>the endo later.

>

>Also all the toxins, and proteins floating around in the blood will also

>screw up the immune system functioning, set up the pt. for auto immune type

>inflammations, pain, swellings, plus invasion by viruses/bacteria (wind

>heat-toxins/yin fire in spleen/hidden heat etc) will further aggravate the

>whole situation, aggravate fatigue, promote painful swollen joints that come

>and go, myalgias etc. If you palpate, yoou will probably find swollen nodes

>in multiple locations.

>

>The recurring vaginal Yeast infections, sour stomach, reflux, nausea, and

>alt. diarrhea/constipation and the (partial) improvement with herbal

>digestive's are also indicators pointing toward the candida prob..

>

>Center here is clearing the Candida/Yeast/Damp-Heat-Toxins from the gut with

>digestives and heat clearing herbs, +/- maybe some mild yin tonics and liver

>detoxer's.

>

>anyway, thats my $.02 worth, hope it helps.

>

>Bruce

>

>--(original message

>follows)-

>In a message dated 05/04/2000 7:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

>tcm2 writes:

>

><< Subj: A TCM challenge.

> 05/04/2000 7:16:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time

> tcm2 (Mark Reese)

> Reply-to: <A HREF= " " >

>@</A>

> (Chinese Herbal Medicine)

>

> Dear group:

>

> I'm not usually one to post cases on groups like this, preferring to puzzle

> them out myself. Usually this works well for me. However I have a major

> challenge for all of you TCM Sherlock Holmes out there.

>

> One the surface, this lady's case seems fairly clear to me, however she not

> responded to almost any attempts to help her out. She has been coming to

> see me weekly for 1 1/2 years --- and frankly I'm not sure why. Only a few

> of her complaints have been addressed.

>

> I throw myself on the mercy of the group. Here is her case:

>

> Twenty-nine year old female, appears to be fit and of healthy weight.

> Complexion is healthy. Extremely stressful job, made worse by her innate

> anxiety.

>

> Main complaint at presentation --- endometriosis and ovarian cysts.

>

> Accompanying complaints: Almost constant fatigue (worse with stress,

> exercise, before and during her period), occassional night sweats (~2 a

> month, no pattern), joint pain (especially knees, but wandering throughout

> her body), sleep is often fitful with problems falling asleep and problems

> waking up througout night (made worse with stressful situations at work),

> headaches which occur 3-4 times a week with 2-3 times a month very severe

> (no correlation to period), sinus allergies, stomach is easily upset by

> food ( " sour stomach " ), rare refux, nausea fairly frequently, alternating

> constipation/diarhea, appetite is normal to slightly reduced, constant

> thirst, often feels hot during day --- but occcassionally is

> inappropriately chilled, dry itchy 'yeast' infections around her period,

> anxious --- often inapproprately (Xanax and the like haven't helped, but

> neither have herbs), easily bloated througout her whole body (occassionally

> worsened by her mestrual cycle), and frequent urination.

>

> Her pulse is text book wiry and not really that deficient feeling. Her

> tongue is slightly long, red at the tip and with an appropriate thin white

> coat.

>

> Despite the welter of complaints, she doesn't come across as a whiner. She

> is very stoic, engaging and friendly. I only point this out to separate

> her from that certain type of acu-client who lives for their symptoms.

>

> I immediately saw the strong preponderance of LV Qi stagnation issues:

> invading into the stomach and the spleen, and holding strong sway over her

> mestrual issues. Most acu-herbal therapies to date have centered around

> that organ. Of course SP deficiency seemed to be a given as well. In

> addition I saw a bit of Kidney yin deficiency here and there --- which I

> never really treated via herbs due to there cloying effect upon the SP.

>

> In granular form, TCM dosages, I administered fairly textbook formulas for

> harmonization of LV/SP/ST. No results. Administering variations on this

> herbal theme for periods of 1-2 months each (to give them ample time to

> work)) produced no meaningful results. I monkeyed with the formulas,

> adding damp/Phlegm dispelling herbs, trying to clear damp heat. The most

> significant improvement that she saw was upon taking the Health Concerns

> product 'Quiet Digestion' which helped a great deal with the stomach

> issues, but not the spleen problems.

>

> I am a desperate man. Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Mark Reese, L.Ac.

>

> ------

> Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that lets

> you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

> http://click./1/3012/6/_/542111/_/957449703/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

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>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

May 8, 2000

I must underscore Toni's point here. Last year, a patient of one of

my colleagues was diagnosed as having fibromyalgia and depression,

when in reality a simple $25 CBC and chemscreen would have revealed

the truth. This patient had blood calcium through the roof, which a

fresh out of school hotshot naturopath ordered on a hunch. The

confirmed dx, which had been missed by a half dozen of the best

regarded acus, chiros and MD's in town, was advanced multiple

myeloma.

This thirty year old mother of a young child died within a few months

of her dx. She could have at least seen her son into adolescence,

possibly have even survived if not for arrogance in every corner.

The

arrogance of alternative healers who dismiss all science as worthless

(in this case in favor of muscle testing by an oh so learned

chiropractor) and the arrogance of an MD who wrote off this woman as

a

whiner and prescribed amitrypatalline for her pain.

Serious illnesses like MM are quite rare, especially in young people,

but unrelenting symptoms may be a serious matter. I now think it is

foolhardy to treat such patients unless they are fully tested. In

another case, an arthritis patient of mine came in with unilateral

focal calf pain. she thought she had strained a muscle and wanted

some acupuncture or herbs. I palpated the area and it did not feel

like something normal. I called an ND colleague to consult and we

decided she might have a blood clot. I declined to do treatment and

sent her to the emergency room. there, she was told I was nuts,

after

which they did an ultrasound and identified a large blood clot.

Blood

clots have to be dissolved under supervision, so they don't go to the

heart. glad I didn't just prescribe strong blood movers, which could

have dislodged the clot prematurely.

, " Toni Narins " <tnarins@i...>

wrote:

>

> I've also treated many patients with different kinds of cancers,

including

> non-Hodgkins lymphoma, so I'm not arguing against treatment with CM.

> However, I feel that my patients have the right to know the western

name of

> their disease as well as the Chinese. It enables them to make

educated

> choices about their treatme

May 8, 2000

Well Said.

A lesson we should all take to heart

Bruce

---(original

message)-------

In a message dated 05/08/2000 1:01:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

herb-t writes:

<< Subj: Re: A TCM challenge.

05/08/2000 1:01:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time

herb-t