Guest guest Posted May 11, 2000 Report Share Posted May 11, 2000 Dear Group: Does anyone have experience with the herb " lobelia inflata " for lung phlegm and cough? I don't mean our own chinese herb, lobelia chinensis, which drains dampness. I want to use the lobelia inflata to treat a woman who smoked marijuana for 13 years and now has sticky, difficult to expectorate phlegm, sometimes tinged with blood, and some pea-sized blood clots she coughs up. She has had chest x-ray, bronchoscopy and sputum analysis, all negative. She quit smoking 5 years ago but still has the gunk in her lungs. How would the lobelia be used? How long would it take to have an effect? I know it can be toxic; how toxic? Thank you. Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2000 Report Share Posted May 11, 2000 Lobelia inflata, in Western usage is used more in western terms as antispasmodic or we might say extinguish wind..It also transforms phlegm. It can produce nausea and in larger doses vomiting. Different patients react differently, and many can take a tablespoon of the tincture without vomiting. In such doses it produces profound relaxation and allows the smooth flow of chi, which is probably why it was used that way by the Thomsonian herbalists. I recently did a complete review of the American and British medical literature back to 1809, and there is not a single credible report of any toxicity worse than vomiting. Samuel Thomson was framed on murder charges, claiming that the herb killed a patient. The patient actually died under the care of the blood-letting doctor who was the witness against Thomson. the allegations in the thomson case have been parroted uncritically in the Western literature ever since. as proof of their incredibility, the FDA allowed the over-the-counter sale of doses of lobeline sulfate as a stop-smoking aid (it doesnt work) in the same range that supposedly killed Thomson's patient. Large doses are not required. 5 drops of the tincture can relax the bronchial tree of a patient with asthma within a few seconds. 10 drops can ease the coughing of pertussis in a child. -- Paul Bergner Editor, Medical Herbalism Clinical Program Director, Rocky Mountain Center for Botanical Studies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2000 Report Share Posted May 11, 2000 Lobelia is a mild looking plant, appearing somewhat like a mild mint, but can leave your tongue burning with a peppery taste for a half hour after a single taste. Lobelia inflata is likely to be emetic before it is toxic, although I know of one person whose heart nearly shut down while she was doing a proving on it, at a deliberately high dosage over one afternoon. (She was dealing with dried herb which may have lost some of its pungency.) Most people throw up long before a toxic dose is reached. I generally use a 1 ml. dose of an alcohol or vinegar extract of the plant, but it does have a limited shelf life, even in tincture form. Lobelia is quite acrid and slightly bitter. It is a warm herb that releases the exterior, invigorating, has a strong uprising energy and should be used in low doses. It ultimately produces an antispasmodic, relaxing sensation after its initial sharpness- and often after emesis. Given the persistence of your patient's phlegm, the emesis might be warranted. Holmes has a good write up of Lobelia Inflata in Vol 2 of the Energetics of Western Herbs and the circulation of lung qi, relief of wheezing, promotion of expectoration and resolution of phlegm properties would probably be of use to your patient. According to Holmes it goes to the Lung, Liver, Heart, Kidney and Bladder. Cx. for heart problems. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** 'People have illness because they do not have love in their life and are not cherished'.- Sun Simiao ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 Dear Julie Lobelia inflata is one of my favorite herbs and its toxicity has been way overstated. My favorite story is one by the great eclectic Finlay Ellingwood, who cured his dying son of Diptheria with this herb. Big deal, you may say. well, this was before antibiotics had been invented and the boy had a pseudomembrane forming, which basically means 100% deathrate. For lung stuff, I particularly like eclectic institute's lloyd extraction called stillingia liniment (stillingia, lobelia, melaleuca). A couple of drops liquifies phlegm and even stops acute asthma for a lot of folks. However, I am curious why you are not using something like qing qi hua tan wan. the lobelia will not have any effect on marijuana habituation like it does for tobacco addiction, as different parts of the brain are involved in each case. , juliej8@a... wrote: > Dear Group: > > Does anyone have experience with the herb " lobelia inflata " for lung phlegm > and cough? I don't mean our own chinese herb, lobelia chinensis, which drains > dampness. I want to use the lobelia inflata to treat a woman who smoked > marijuana for 13 years and now has sticky, difficult to expectorate phlegm, > sometimes tinged with blood, and some pea-sized blood clots she coughs up. > She has had chest x-ray, bronchoscopy and sputum analysis, all negative. She > quit smoking 5 years ago but still has the gunk in her lungs. > > How would the lobelia be used? How long would it take to have an effect? I > know it can be toxic; how toxic? > > Thank you. > > Julie Chambers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 Dear As mentioned in my second email on the subject of my lobelia patient, I have used formulas very similar to Qing Qi Hua Tan Wan, and with these, there has been about a 60% improvement over 5 months. So perhaps I will continue along that path. Regarding marijuana habituation, if I understand you correctly, that is not an issue. That is, she stopped smoking 5 years ago, but she now still has the sticky phlegm. When she was smoking, she says she would cough up black tarry stuff! Now it is just yellow to white with some blood. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 > the lobelia will not have any effect on > marijuana habituation like it does for tobacco addiction, Lobelia theoretically has an effect like nicotine, but at 1/50 or less the potency. Based on this abstract pharmacology, drug companies sold lobeline sulfate it as a stop smoking aid to reduce nicotine cravings until the early 1990s when several double blind clinical trials showed it to be useless. Of course it -may- help with the after-smoking cough and crud that comes up as the bronchial tract begins to heal. Paul Bergner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 I just want to add that I generally apply western herbs only for branch pathology. Even if we know the so-called energetics of a western herb, I don't think it is very straightforward to use these herbs for root pathology until much more info has been collected. todd , Paul Bergner <bergner@m...> wrote: > > the lobelia will not have any effect on > > marijuana habituation like it does for tobacco addiction, > > Lobelia theoretically has an effect like nicotine, but at 1/50 or less the > potency. Based on this abstract pharmacology, drug companies sold lobeline > sulfate it as a stop smoking aid to reduce nicotine cravings until the early > 1990s when several double blind clinical trials showed it to be useless. Of > course it -may- help with the after-smoking cough and crud that comes up as > the bronchial tract begins to heal. > > Pau Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2000 Report Share Posted May 14, 2000 In a message dated 5/12/00 2:07:19 PM, herb-t writes: >I just want to add that I generally apply western herbs only for >branch pathology. Even if we know the so-called energetics of a >western herb, I don't think it is very straightforward to use these >herbs for root pathology until much more info has been collected. > >todd This is a good point, and indeed they shold be used this way at this time by OM people, but we ned to understand as much of their functions in our context as possible in order to avoid actions that may oppose our original formulation. The work done by Jeremy Ross and Michael Tierra are important in this way, even if they are presently conjectural or in beginning stages. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2000 Report Share Posted May 14, 2000 I also use 'western' herbs in the same way. . . .according to the principles laid out by Xu Da-chun in " Forgotten Principles of Ancient " . . . .pg. 157 On Single Substance Presciptions: in specific urgent needs, or simple patterns or pathoconditions. And yes, David, we must determine their nature and function in order to avoid conflicts with herbal prescriptions designed for a specific complex pattern. >In a message dated 5/12/00 2:07:19 PM, herb-t writes: > >>I just want to add that I generally apply western herbs only for >>branch pathology. Even if we know the so-called energetics of a >>western herb, I don't think it is very straightforward to use these >>herbs for root pathology until much more info has been collected. >> >>todd > >This is a good point, and indeed they shold be used this way at this time by >OM people, but we ned to understand as much of their functions in our context >as possible in order to avoid actions that may oppose our original >formulation. >The work done by Jeremy Ross and Michael Tierra are important in this way, >even if they are presently conjectural or in beginning stages. >David Molony > >------ >Perfect for any room of your family's home, Honeywell's QuietCare HEPA >Air Purifier features maximum air flow & 30% less noise. Enjoy $35 off >this state-of-the-art air purifier at gazoontite.com & breathe deeply! >http://click./1/3965/9/_/542111/_/958358526/ >------ > >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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